? for Experts / Lyman molds

[brudford]

Casting and reloading for a 38-40 WCF . for a Uberti Low Wall 1885 . Started with a Lee .40 / 10 mm soon discovered that accuracy was poor and I felt this mold was really a pistol design . Everyone said , " to buy the Lyman mold # 401043" . Casts a nice bullet with 20:1 alloy . Was told that this mold was by design for BP loading for 1873-1875 lever action rifles . No crimp groove , not needed with a full charge of BP .
The bullet will not be pushed backwards . From my research Lyman did not start to
produce this mold until the 1920's well into the smokeless powder era . So why was there no crimp groove on this design ? This bullet has a bullet band or a ogive . What is the purpose of this band ? to catch the rifling ? If Lyman did not start to make this mold until the 1920's were you to crimp in front of the bullet band to keep the bullet from pushing back if using smokless powder ? Since I use a single shot I'am not crimping at all . What I really want is a bullet without a band and no crimp groove . The dates do not make sense . The 38-40 was designed in 1875 by Winchester to be used in their 1873 lever action rifles . Was lyman even making molds in 1875 ? Why then do they call this mold the orignal for 38-40 BP casting and loading when their mold was not even made until the 1920;s long after smokeless powder came in to use ? I have seated on the bullet band , behind the band and burried the band completely with various results. I see no functional use for this band with BP loads . Thanks

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I load 38-40 for my 73 with this bullet and ran into the same issues as you have. I tried the Lee crimp die which worked but it was pretty harsh on the case mouths when the crimp was applied on the mouth on top of the band...even though it got the proper OAL for feeding. As you know 38-40 brass is kind of thin and has to be treated kindly if it is to last. I do not use black powder so there is no need for me to dwell on the historical romanticism. I am not a fan of Lyman's claims, past or present. I agree that if the cartridge was put out in 1875 then the bullet's actual introduction in 1920 as the original cannot be correct. I bought the mold way back in the day when I didn't know better and did not look before I leaped. Then a cousin gave me his too so I have had 2 of them all along. In any event my personal solution to this problem has been to trim the cases back a bit to accommodate the length of the band and then crimp lightly behind the band. I get the correct OAL and the cartridge feeds ok in my 73 using light to moderate loads of smokeless. The trim solution works very well altho it is a pain to do it. The bullet, with the correct charge shoots pretty accurately for/in the 73. I also use this bullet in my Ruger Blackhawk....the decreased length is not important as the case seats on the rim anyway; the accuracy is good. Although I have never measured the length of the band I don't believe that it is instrumental in changing the amount of air space very much in the loaded case for either the 73 or the Ruger. So with the trim and a light crimp behind it everything has gone well. The bullet works in both weapons, no telescoping in the 73 mag; the right OAL and good feeding. In the Ruger...no setback and bullets pulling out do to recoil. You might want to give his a try. Good shooting. LLS

[Glen]

In 1897, when Ideal first started using the numbering system to identify their mould designs, this mould was cataloged as the Ideal 40043, and listed as the "regular standard .38-40 bullet". Ideal cataloged the No. 4 combination mould/loading tool for the .38-40 (using this bullet design) at least as far back as 1894 (the oldest Ideal handbook that I currently have, Ideal #5).

Ideal started making moulds about 1884, and Lyman didn't buy the company until 1925.

There was no crimp groove because (as you said) if was originally designed to be used with a case full of black powder. The forward driving band was so that the case could be crimped over that shoulder, to prevent the bullet from coming out under recoil.

[brudford]

Sounds like a good solution to trim the brass back and light crimp pre bullet band .
I seem to get alot of lube that squeezes out buy doing that . Since I'am loading for a single shot if I crimp behind the bullet band accuracy is ok . I guess the main point of my post was to try to find a bullet mold maker that can make a bullet without a bullet band. And since I load for BP have no need of a crimp since the BP will keep the bullet from drifting back . I'am still questionong why did Lyman ever need to incorporate a bullet band in the first place ? Remember their claim that their's is the orignal 38-40 BP mold for this caliper . Black powder has no need of a crimp or bullet band ? I have been
seating the bullet band all the way in and a little concerned with the thin walls of case bulging from the band .

[Glen]

The crimp over the bullet band is to keep the bullet from drifting OUT under recoil when used in revolvers (the case full of black powder keeps the bullet from being pushed IN when used in tubular magazines in a rifle).

[brudford]

Glen , I do remember reading about Lyman buying the ideal Tool Co. Lyman got it's start making the # 1 tang sight . So is the Lyman mold # 401043 a pistol mold or a rifle mold ? Crimping over the band makes sense to keep the bullet from moving foward . However the 38-40 is a rifle cartridge only later to be chambered for handguns . You stated for handgun recoil ? So I'am using a bullet mold designed
for handgun bullets ? What was the orignal bullet form or design for the Winchester 1873 lever action rifle ? do we even know ? Is it possible to find a mold that was designed for a rifle 38-40 bullet only ? So if Lyman truly makes one of the oldest still in production 38-40 molds it is a handgun bullet ? It appears then that no bullet mold
maker is producing a true 38-40 mold for a rifle .

[9.3X62AL]

A purpose-built mould design from Mountain Molds might be in order here.

[Glen]

The .38-40 was chambered in the Colt Peacemaker in 1874, the same year that Winchester started chambering it in the Model 73. It has basically been a combo rifle/revolver cartridge since birth. The 40143 is a direct copy of the original Winchester bullet used in the .38-40.

[brudford]

The Colt Single Action Big Bore Trio was completed in 1886 as the second '73 Winchester chambering was added with the .38-40 or .38 Winchester Center Fire. This time the same powder charge of forty grains propelled a 180 grain bullet. These three chamberings .45 Colt (158,985 manufactured), .44-40 (71,281), and .38-40 (50,520) accounted for the about 80% of the total sales of the First Generation Colt Single Action Armies produced from 1873 to 1941. More than thirty calibers appear in the other 20%.


Glen I was not aware that Colt had chambered for the 38-40 that early . Above is from an article written by John Taffin . John reports a date of 1886 for Colts 38-40
chambering that it was the third following the .45 long Colt , the 44-40 and then the 38-40 in 1886 referring to the '73 Winchester lever action rifle . Thanks for the info.

[Glen]

brudford -- I stand corrected -- I got mixed up, the .38-40 didn't come along in the Peacemaker until 1886, as you said.