Help with SR mauser identification

[scrapcan]

Well guys not sure if this a mil surp or not. The rifle is a small ring mauser that has been sporterized or may have been a sporter. Not sure so here I am asking.

A co-worker (actually my high level boss) just bought what appears to be a small ring mauser sporter. mainly bought as a donner action for a build.

It is cock on close, has what appears to be a factory bent bolt. Action is marked FN Herstal. has a low serial number (3XXX). has checkered top swing safety. No thumb cut, but was not sure if that meant anything on small ring. It has stripper clip guide. has two stage trigger. Barrel has been changed to .308 win and looks to be much newer vintage than action. I did not get a good look to see if there is a crest. Action had scope mount holes filled. It has two rear holes and one front hole on the left side of action about midline between action opening and the wood line.

What items need to be looked at other than measurements to identify the model/make/etc...

Thanks for the help.

[Larry Gibson]

A picture would be best. Is the magazine flush? Is the bottom of the bolt round (where it picks up a cartridge from the magazine) or square?

Larry Gibson

[Four Fingers of Death]

Cock on closing with a 308, pre 98, be careful with the loads, they launch parts into orbit if hotrodded.

[KCSO]

I will paraphrase Frank DeHass here...

The main problem with the 93/95 Mauser is not the strength, but the lack of adaquate gas relief in case of a rupture.

That said I was always leary of 308 in a 93/95 action then I got a Kimber in the 96 action that was chambered for 22-250 and the gun was warrenteed by Kimber, so go figure. All I can say is that I have never seen a 93/95 that ever let go with any factory ammunition. If I can get to the copier i will post the 93/95 identifier section from DeHass.

[Ricochet]

I'm going to guess it might be one of the Spanish '93 Mauser types, like a 1916.

[scrapcan]

Thanks so far. I will try to get some pictures of the parts requested so far for you guys to take a look at. I have keep a distance from the small rings because of what I had read in several books about sporterizing the small ring.

The guy that bought this particular rifle bought it for a pretty good price for this area. His intent is to use it for a sporter of some kind.

More to come. stay tuned.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Does it have a single column magazine protruding below the stock? If so could be a Belgian 1889.

[Bob S]

Possibilites:

Belgian M1889 ... Marked "Fabrique Nationale" over "Herstal - Liege" on the receiver ring

Brazilian M1894 rifle and carbine: marked as above, but on the left receiver rail.

Uraguay M1895: Nearly Identical to Chilean M1895; no crest, only the "Fabrique Nationale" "Herstal - Liege" manuf mark.

And there is this small note from Ball's book under Paraguay. It seems that Paraguay purchased 7000 Belgian M1889 rifles in 1930 ... and that at least some of these were converted to 7.62 x 51 in the 1950's. A pre-1893 in ".308"!

AFAIK, all other "small ring" rifles were made by Hopkins and Allen (Belgian M1889 only), Manufacture De L'Etat a Liege, Ludwig Loewe, DWM, Mauser, Oviedo, La Caruna, Carl Gustaf, and Huskvarna, and so-marked. Have I left anybody out?

BTW, the FN marking was changed to "Fab Nat. D'Armes de Guerre" "Herstal - Belgique" after WW I.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Buckshot]

...............The Brazilian contract small ring Mausers were made by both FN and Loewe. They had no thumb cut in the left wall of the action, and thay were milled for the 'Square faced', or 'Bolt with a Chin'. Even if the bolt has been changed to a round configuration, the action will naturally remain with it's factory milling for the square faced bolt.

Very simple and easy to see. Look at the tang, or pull the bolt out and you'll see the milling cut made to pass the deeper front face of the bolt.

http://www.fototime.com/8D9E80C7ACFFD90/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/E650F9F869482C9/standard.jpg

Just in front of the bullet in this 45 ACP you can see how the area over the bottom lug shoulder is flat?

http://www.fototime.com/54CA70973018D20/standard.jpg

In this photo, notice the wide flat milled area of the tang.

http://www.fototime.com/071A0EB45795839/standard.jpg

In the above photo the bolt is lying in the same position as if it were locked up in the action. Ie: left lug @ 12 o'clock. If you look at the 3 o'clock position you'll see a patch that isn't as smooth and shiney as the rest of the bolt? That is where the 'chin' has been ground off to make the boltface round.

However, the action MAY be a 1893 Spanish, as they had the square faced bolt early on, and I also think they may have been missing the thumb slot. Not 100% on that. However they did not come with a gas relief port through the lefthand side of the action ring. Those rifles returned to arsenal had one added by Spanish armorers.

The sidewall markings are ALWAYS the best bet unless buffed off.

..............Buckshot

[Bret4207]

The gas handleiing issue can be solved by putting a hole through the bolt body so the as can escape into the mag well. I've seen 1 or 2 bolts this has been done on. Never saw the need myself.

[scrapcan]

I talked to the owner and he has seen this post and will get some additional info/pics.

Buckshot,

How does that 45acp conversion work? Is that a Rhineland arms conversion? How difficult was it to make the conversion? Did you shorten the action also? That will be a nice one off piece when you get it stocked in a nice piece of wood. I know what you are thinking, enough with the 20 questions. It is just to interesting to not ask.

When I saw the first discussion of the rhineland arms conversion, I told myself I need to do that someday.

Jeremy

[Buckshot]

.................It's a shortened 1894 Brazilian action. I milled a slot out and MiG welded the action and bolt back together. The issue is the firing pin and spring, and assembling the shortened bolt.

http://www.fototime.com/F246BB1FDB4371E/standard.jpg

I recut the lugs on the firingpin for the cocking piece. You cannot assemble the bolt and have a mainspring long enough to work. All in all it turned out very nice and I was excited about it. The firing pin issue caused me to 'back burner' the project.

http://www.fototime.com/AEADFA280B7829D/standard.jpg

You can see here the problem. To get the cockingpiece on the firing pin the spring would have to collapse to half it's length. Also about that when cocked. SO the spring would have to be able to be compress this much, yet when fired the spring would have to have enough energy to drive the FP forward and still have enought tension left to have the firing pin support the primer at ignition.

http://www.fototime.com/9791792F57864C9/standard.jpg

The bolt and action after grinding the welds.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Buckshot

[scrapcan]

Buckshot,

Is there a way that you could make use of a double spring afair that would act like the main spring in a compact 1911 (or other shorty for that matter)? A two stage main spring type of arrangement. Or it sounds like you might become a spring maker to make the spring you need, one more thing you need new tools/time for.

Jeremy

[scrapcan]

OK Guys here are some pictures to help identify. You will notice (if I made the pictures large enough) that there are 4 holes that have bee filled on the left receiver rail. It also looks like it has a flat bottom bolt.

Any idea of age? It seems like the serial number is pretty low, 3XXX.

Also do you think the stock is a sporterized military stock?

All help will be appreciated. He is thinking about a lower pressure chambering like 250-3000.

I had a couple questions about the chambering and rework for my edification. Is 257 roberts in that low pressure class also? Would it be possible to find a takeoff 6.5X55 and turn it to a taper? How tough would it be to tap for a receiver sight, and what sight/base combo to use?

Any how here are the pics. If higher resolution ictures would help, I can post them. Hard to read in images receiver ring reads, as mentioned earlier BOB S, "Fabrique Nationale" over "Herstal - Liege"

[floodgate]

Buckshot:

Might be worth contacting Wolfe and asking whether - if you just sent them the bolt and all its parts - they could bend you up a spring that would do the job? I gather that they are really the world's experts on coil springs.

BTW, gang, Jeremy has - very kindly, promptly and at no cost - converted the Ideal / Lyman mould files I have been quoting from into "MS Word for Mac" and "MS Excel 2004 for Mac", from the original files on an old, "orphan" MS "Works" program, so I can work on them in my new iMac G5 with "MS Office for Mac". This is a very nice and easy-reading program with (for once) a good set of instructions (I'm too computer stupid to even follow the directions in the "Dummies"and "Complete Idiot" books), and is available in a "student" version (well, aren't we ALL students??) at a reasonable price and usually with a discount. Ain't this a WONDERFUL bunch of guys???

Doug Elliott / aka "floodgate"

[NVcurmudgeon]

Jeremy, most likely this rifle is an 1893 Mauser, certainly an earlier one, because of the square bottom bolt. As even Mauser considered the 1893 and 1895 models the same rifle, guess it could be an 1895 also. Dunno if any 1895s had the square bottom bolt. It cannot be an 1894 or 1896 because those were all Swedish and built by either Mauser or Carl Gustavs in Sweden. I have only two reference books in this area, but my best guess would be a FN (Belgian) made model 1893 Mauser made for Spain. During the NATO era, beginning in 1952, it was common for rifles to be rebarreled to 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester.) Spain seems to have gotten away with this practice because their army used a low-pressure loading of the 7.62 NATO round made for their CETME rifle. Responsible gunsmiths don't convert 1893 rifles to .308/7.62NATO. That does look like a sporterized military stock.

[Larry Gibson]

Manleyjt

It is a M1894 made by FN in Belgium for Brazil. Original cartridge was 7x57.

Quite frankly I would leave it in .308 if the barrel is good. These are not the "soft" steeled Spanish made actions. Contrary to popular internet rumors these and Swede actions are quite strong enough for the .308. How many of the thousands of Kimber converted M96s to .308 and 22-250 have given up the ghost? Anyways that's another whole new (or old) subject.....just saying what I would do simply because this is a cast bullet forum and the .308 is very versatile in that regard. I would also convert it to cock on opening giving it a lock time and opening feel similar to a M70. There are the makings of a fine little sporter there. It is easy to mount a receiver sight also. In the below pictures you’ll see a M95 Chilean that has been sporterized. I got it about half done and have been finishing it. I’ve replaced the Williams FP sight with a Redfield but a Lyman SME receiver sight is very good also. The front sight is a Williams ramp with hood and a post front sight. You’ll also see the short lock time ala M70 with the bolt uncocked and when cocked. I’ve a couple more things to do before it’s finished. With the original barrel in 7x57 now shortened to 22” I’m pushing 175 gr Hornady’s at 2425 with 4831 and 139 gr SPs at 2770 fps. These are European equivalent loads for the 7x57. Again, I’d leave the barrel on and add the sights.

Larry Gibson

[scrapcan]

Thanks guys for helping id this thing. I took a look at ball's book at the bookstore this afternoon ( man the new copy is pricey, Ioaned mine out and it never arrived at the bookshelf again). My memory needs to be much better before I can id without the rifle and book together at the same spot. There is a section on the 1889 that mentions the same as mentioned earlier in this thread about the receiver ring markings. I also noticed that the both stop on this rifle looks like it has been changed to a m98 style, could that be correct?

Would better closeup pictures of the markings or action make a more definite Id possible?

Floodgate,

Thanks for the appreciative remarks. Lets make sure all the files work before I get too many thanks. I did not get the package in the mail to you today. I will get the cd's out in the mail early next week.

Jeremy

[Larry Gibson]

....... I also noticed that the both stop on this rifle looks like it has been changed to a m98 style, could that be correct?

Jeremy


Not kidding you Jeremy, what you have is a M1894 made for Brazil. Kuhnhausen's book is the quickest reference to second that (page 10 listing the Mauser variations and their manufacturers). It is not commonly known that there were 2 M1894s; the most widely known being the Swede and the other the Brazilian. The bolt stop is typical of the M93/94/95/96 and the M98. The only real variation to the Mauser bolt stop is on the M91 & M1909 Argintines.

Larry Gibson

[scrapcan]

Larry,

Thaks for the help. It sounds like you have a definitive answer. Do you have an idea of date of manufacture? Four digit serial number on receiver and it starts with a 3.

Just for my info. what are the charactersitics that you are going by? We know it is small ring due to measurements but coming up with the exact model is interestign to me.

Doug,

your package will also go out on Tuesday. Just missed the counter closing due to problems with a package missing som contents sent to me by a fellow forum member. I also reworked the history PDF to make it more printer friendly.

Take care guys and let me know if you ahve more info or feed back on the SR mauser

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

Thaks for the help. It sounds like you have a definitive answer. Do you have an idea of date of manufacture? Four digit serial number on receiver and it starts with a 3.

Just for my info. what are the charactersitics that you are going by? We know it is small ring due to measurements but coming up with the exact model is interestign to me.



I'd have to research more into it for the date of manufacture. That's usually something I don't track. I'm going to be back at Camp LeJeune for a couple weeks early Tuesday so I probably won't have an answer for awhile, perhaps someone else here has the info? The charactoristics are from the description, the pictures and particularly the manufacturer, FN Of Belgium. M93 through M96 Mausers have been manufactured by numerous companies/countries. Only the M1894 for Brazil was manufactured at FN in Belgium (Herstal). I've read it on one internet forum that perhaps the early Persian M95s were manufactured therealso but I've not seen one. A lot of the Brazilian M1894s, like most S. American Mausers, were imported years ago. The key to IDing yours is the manufacturer.

Larry Gibson

[Buckshot]

...........The 1894 Brazilian was also made by Ludwig Loewe. I bought a dozen actions (stipped) from Century several years ago for $4.95 each and both makers were included.

.................Buckshot