A bittersweet, painful ending to a chapter in my life.

[Recluse]

Almost a year ago, I took our (adopted, now estranged) daughter to buy a car. She had done the research, so much as a nineteen-year-old female can do, and I guided her on what to look for in a make/model/year, etc.

We/she settled on a really nice little 2007 Ford Focus five-door sedan model, very low miles, excellent condition, and I negotiated the dealership down to a bit over two-thousand dollars under NADA blue book value.

We were happy.

The arrangement was that I'd sign the note and she'd make the payments and insurance. I'd help her with gas if/when needed and I'd take care of all routine and preventive maintenance.

Around Thanksgiving, she pulled another of her "going off the deep end" behavior swings, and as expected, I had to make the payments for the next few months. Come February, the relationship was over and at the end of March, she was gone.

We (wife and I) got the car back and we haven't heard from her since.

I should've just sold the car then (end of March), but I decide to help another family member out whose daughter was a year younger and graduating from high school. Outstanding young lady, zero problems.

Her dad (my cousin) and I agreed upon a down payment upon sale of her (then present) vehicle, and I went ahead and gave them the keys to the Focus.

A week later, I'm still waiting on the down payment and I get a call that the "sale of her car never materialized and that it was back for sale again." I then hear a few weeks later that it sold, but that he (cousin) had to use the money for something else.

Uh-oh. Deja vu.

Long story short, we get two payments (May and June) then the car gets wrecked--fault was someone else's, but the car is totaled and a July payment is due.

Guess who got stiffed on the July payment?

So for the past two weeks, I've been stuck with a wrecked car that every time I looked at it, I thought of the adopted girl we have no idea where she is, how she's doing or anything. Thankfully my cousin's daughter was not seriously injured in the wreck and thankfully the party-at-fault's insurance is covering almost the entire loss.

I'll only be out a couple of hundred dollars to settle the bank note, but then I'm also out a bit over $500 on payments that never materialized. This has caused some serious strain between the two families. My wife refuses to even acknowledge them anymore. Not the first time this happened (lend money to family that never gets paid back), but it IS the last.

Since the first of April, we've lost a daughter, a car, several thousand dollars, and a friendship within the family that may never be restored.

The car seems symbolic somehow. . .

:coffee:

[Bloodman14]

Sometimes, guy, life sucks; then, it gets worse. I got a car on my credit for my wife's niece who SWORE she'd make the payments. 3 months later, she began missing payments, swearing she had made them. Eventually, she brings the car back (A Ford Focus, by the way!). My brother took over the payments (paying me), and took off to Colorado with the car. Never made payments. Repo guy shows up at my door at 2:00 AM demanding the car! I tell him it's in Colorado. Long story short, the car gets repo'd in Co., and I'm responsible for the unpaid balance of 8K! Lesson learned? HELP NOBODY, including family. I feel for you, Recluse, I really do.

[Southern Son]

Recluse, I think that you are the sort of bloke that if you didn't try and help out your family, you would still have felt bad. Kind of a loose/loose situation.

[square butte]

My dear wife has a saying which I have always loved and appreciated - " If you are alive and breathing, then you are going to be screwed - and probably more than once. - Just part of the cost of being alive". I do tend to agree, even though painfully so. My saying is - "I'm just old enough to not want to be screwed more than once by the same person." That said - I do hope you are able - and soon - to throw it all over the soulder and walk forward toward better things.

[blackthorn]

I made it a rule NEVER to co-sign for anyone's loan. That rule was put in place during times when I could not stand to be stiffed financially! I can (and do) help out my kids and grand kids at times and have (at times) lent (loaned) them money BUT I do that conciously knowing that often that "loan" will turn out to be a "gift". Some times I get it back and sometimes I dont. If I cant afford to lose it the "loan" just dont happen! That said---Recluse I feel your pain and dissapoitment.

[justingrosche]

A couple of years ago, I took in my niece who was on the streets after her mom and dad kicked her out. I got her through highschool, and provided for her the whole time w/o receiving a penny from my BIL.
If I had to do it again, I would. Even though the only time she calls she needs money. Sometimes you just have to do those things, even when you know its going to bite you in the ass.
Best wishes to you and your family, Recluse.

[armexman]

You Mr. Recluse are a model of what a true kind person is. I have for many months seen and read through your post the travails you have gone through in this board life. My admiration for your kindness and knowledge is a blessing form the Lord. Through yours and other's experiences I been have taught (almost as much as my Grandfathers and Father and a little bit of Life) what it means to have the strength and faith to continue thru this vale of tears. Plus you share your reloading and casting experiences;)

Let it be known by all, I do not Kowtow to anybody but God and My Wife!! So I'm very sincere about this post.

[Trey45]

A person who is no longer my friend, and you'll soon find out why, asked me to cosign a car loan for him. He wanted a big 4x4, something WAY out of his price range, a status symbol car. I told him I wouldn't cosign for ANY car for him, especially that truck he could never afford. He asked me why, I explained, when, not if, but when you default on the payments, who do you think the bank is going to come after, you or me. He told me "Well, if I missed a payment and you had to pay, I'd pay you back eventually"

Eventually? Really? That just exudes LOADS of confidence.

You know how it is, sometimes you just have to cull people out of your life. Sometimes it hurts to do it, sometimes, it really feels good.

[Char-Gar]

I was taught as a child that you never did business with a family member. You can give anything and everything you own to a family member, but you never sell it to them. That was and is a good rule. I still live by it and give away allot of stuff. When you stick profit and loss into a family, very often a family is destroyed.

I am truly sorry for your situation. It has got to hurt.

[fatelk]

It seems like there are two kinds of people, when it comes to loans. There are those who will go to the ends of the earth to pay you back, even if you have forgotten, and there are those who try hard to forget as soon as possible.

I think there are more of the former type than we realize, but they don't often borrow unsecured money because of the weight they feel to pay it back ASAP, that and a little pride and self-respect. The latter type will ask whenever they get a chance because they really feel no obligation to repay. After all, you have money and they don't; isn't it only fair that you should just give it to them?:)

Sometimes it's sad to find out that someone you care about is that way. I think it says a lot about your character that you are willing to help someone out. You never know what kind of impact you may have on someone's life, even if you don't see it right away. Maybe someday they will wake up and realize what you did for them and how foolish they were to throw it away.

[shooterg]

You may never get repaid in this life, but you will reap the rewards in the next.

[3006guns]

Your wife has the correct attitude. Follow her example and I mean that as constructive criticism, not a derisive remark. I respect you too much.

Recluse......normally I have a very caring, Christian attitude toward people but I've been stung badly several times by family members. I mean BADLY, as in thousands of dollars loaned and never paid back. I sold my house to a family member...shorted me several thousand. I cosigned a car loan for my own son....I ended up paying the damn thing off to stop the bank's phone calls. Money loaned to my ex-wife's uncle with horses for colateral (boy, that WAS stupid) only to find out that the horses were sold before they even asked for the money, then they left the state. The list of stupid mistakes goes on and on. Hell, I still owe money on a cosigned student loan for my stepson and will probably die before it's paid off. Knowing the federal government they'll be digging me up to demand payment. My last "loan" was to my other stepson and his wife so they could get into a nicer house, but I made it abundently clear that I wanted that money back as it came out of my retirement savings.

I would put the amount loaned to everyone at around $50,000 all totaled and I got very little of it back. Now I'm out on a disability and could use the cash that I earned, yet it seems that everyone suddenly doesn't know me.

The problem with people like us is that we WANT to help someone in need, especially if it's family. I honestly think that a family member doesn't realize that a business deal is exactly that, business. You need that money as much as they do and taking advantage because you're "family" is outright deceitful.

[felix]

Banks do not loan money to anyone without assurance of getting paid back. So, why should you? A trick I used to get good credit for my sons was to use credit cards in their name only. Use different credit card companies for each child. In about 6 months or so if the card has not been used, they will send checks out trying to make you use the checks up to the credit limit. DO IT, MAXING OUT THE CARD! Have the children write checks, bank the checks, and then repay within a month or two with all interest. Replicate that several times, keeping in mind it takes money (interest) to make money (raising the credit limit). Now that a universally favorable record had been made, get COMMERCIAL student loans for the children and max that out as like it was a credit card. Pay that off in about 3 months. Two months later look at the childrens' credit reports. Amazing! Keep that going until they are out of college, and the kids will have inherent financial backing. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

Felix.. Before there were credit cards, folks built their credit in much the same way. They went to the bank and borrowed a small sum of money for 30 days. In 30 days they paid back the note. They borrowed more for the same time and paid it back. This continued until they bank was willing to loan them a huge sum of money on their signature. The money was deposited in another bank for interest. All that was required to pay it off was the difference between the interest received and the interest paid. You ended up with good credit in two banks. I was taught this by a Professor in Law school back in the early 60's.

Your counsel on this matter is rock solid.

[gray wolf]

JD--you have helped Julie and I, and don't think for a moment that we will ever for get it.
It hurts me to know that someone would treat you with anything but the utmost respect
and honesty. I hope you remain the person you are, It would be a shame to loose you to
the injustices and miss deeds of others.
Stay strong my friend, There is much good out there.

Sam

[Jailer]

Never EVER loan money to anyone unless you are willing to consider it a gift with NO strings attached.

[exile]

Recluse,

Sorry to hear that you are getting the short end of the stick in this situation. Sometimes it helps to keep in mind that not all rewards are given on this earth. In fact, the biggest rewards that we receive may be in heaven. So, keep looking out for those you love, even if you get shafted at times. You are a good guy, even if your adopted daughter and relatives are too short-sighted to realize that. Hopefully they will some day, but if they don't, there is always someone who does.

exile

[468]

Recluse. your intent was to help someone. I think, somehow, you knew there was a probability of non payment. You are to be commended for your generousity and non-judgement. You will be rewarded.

[uncle joe]

Recluse, I think that you are the sort of bloke that if you didn't try and help out your family, you would still have felt bad. Kind of a loose/loose situation.
exactly!!
Have no fear, our folks are the same way. It goes from one drama to another. Keep your chin up your a good guy.

[Lonerider]

It would seem that we all can come up with stories of simliar and well meaning hearts. I too go along with a couple of post. I can't even count how many vehicles I have given away to help someone that at the time needed it. Knowing full well, they would not be able to repay for a very long time, if ever. So for me, if I have and I can do with out it and it will help someone to survive even for just a short term, I will alway give it as a gift and not a loan. Figuring, if someday they are able to get things togethers, things have a habit of returning more then I can give.

If you PM me, I had a situation very simliar to yours but with a good friend, he wrecked the vehicle and skip the country....Came to a point, where I just shrug my shoulders and moved on. I do not regret trying to help him.....for me....it was the right thing to do at the time.

My greats concern for you and your family....is the disappearance of your adopted daughter.

To this day, I do no know wher my children Heather and Cody are. Last I had heard they were in Nebraska or Wyoming. Not a day goes by that a tear does not fall.

The car was just steel and rubber....but a daughter is so much more.

You and your family will be in my prayers this week.

Lonerider.

[oscarflytyer]

With all the cynicism abounding here, and my heart goes out to you...

I am VERY blessed. I took on three stepsons years ago. We now also have two of our own. NO difference anywhere - They/WE are ALL family. I am VERY BLESSED!

My oldest stepson, 25, is getting married to a wonderful girl in Sept. He is estranged from his biological father. He told his mother, anyone can be a bio father, but Steve (me) is my Dad. That makes it ALL worthwhile for me.

His younger brothers (other 2 stepsons) basically feel the same. This means a lot to me. And, all 5 boys are thick as thieves.

Unfortunately, your generosity bit you. But it doesn't always turn out this way. You obviously have a lot invested in your adopted daughter (and I do NOT mean monetarily), and I hope you find out where she is and that she is doing ok. It is obviously weighing you. Just know that you did all you could do. Take care.

[felix]

A family who prays together, stays together (for the most part). Parents are obligated to teach their children who the Boss is and why they were created. The parents should also teach them that the parents are nothing but overseers until they are fully capable of doing the Lord's work intended for them. According to a poll on our board some time ago, something like 20 percent of us do not believe in the Lord. ... felix

[HeavyMetal]

I listen to a lot of Dave Ramsey while driving between customers during the week.

Guy makes a lot of sense about a lot of things. His handle on family and money is spot on!

1 never co sign never.

2 if a family member needs money give it do not loan it if and only if you can afford it yourself.

3 do not go into business with family, the fastest ship to sink is a partnership!

4 do not sell anything to family, particularly cars or trucks! Gift if you can afford it otherwise no deal.

These are pretty simple rules to live by and have worked well for me.

My oldest girl wanted a new car when she was able to get her license I refused to buy her a car and I refused to co sign for a car.

I did offer to help select a good used car and add to her down and secure insurance.

You have no idea what an Alpha Hotel I was for about a month! During this time I was dragged to every low life used car lot in the OC.

During these visits the girl child learned that car dealers, particularly used car dealer, have no ones interest in heart but thier own. Since thats how they make a living I fault them not but it was a good learning experience for her.

In the end we found a local guy that ran a small repair shop, you know smog and fix it, who dabbled in cars. She struck a deal for a 92 Concorde no interest 6 month payments 10% down.

We'd down some small business with him over the years, we lived ( and still do) within walking distance of his shop so he knew us by reputation ( this is something else I have taught the girls "rep is everything")

The kid had the car paid of in 4 months drove it for a year then traded up to a Sentra and drove that until last year when she traded up to a camry.

She has done all this on her own credit rating ( over 800 ) and never needed a cosigner.

Today I am the hero for pointing her straight.

I din't mean to wander off topic.

Recluse I hope things work out well for the adopted child but alway remember tough love is the best love.

[rtracy2001]

A popular 1950s TV show stated it very well.

As Desi Arnaz said it:

"Nunca hagas negocios con amigos ni con parientes."

Translation:

Never do buisiness with friends or family.

A popular variation on the theme is "If you can't afford or are unwilling to give family money, don't loan it to them."

Seems it is much easier to say no and deal with the dissapointment once, than say yes, and relive the dissapointment every time you see said family member.

[bowfin]

Lesson learned? HELP NOBODY, including family.

I am going to respectfully disagree on several different levels, but I'll touch on only one:

Giving someone something and helping them can be two entirely different things. Sometimes, they are directly opposed to each other.

I do chapel services at a homeless shelter, and the staff daily fights the problem of well intentioned people trying buy solutions to problems that can only be addresses with changes in behaviors, habits, and attitudes.

"We want to donate a car to Cody so he can get back and forth to work, now that he found a job."

"Cody is using one of the shelter's bikes to get back and forth. He doesn't need a car. He needs to learn how to depend on himself and to stop waiting for something to be given to him."

"Well then, we'll drive Cody."

"Cody doesn't need a ride, he needs to learn how to get to work on time, all the time by himself. He is learning that and he is doing well. Thank you for caring, please say a prayer for Cody."

[Char-Gar]

Dave Ramsey is spot on! He is a Christian man who consider it his ministry to help people find financial peace. Worry over money is one of the top if not the top drag on human happiness.

I spent 37 years as a Christian pastor and tried to help thousands of people as they tried to struggle through all of the problems of life. I have seen time and time again, families thrown into turmoil over doing business and making loans to other family members.

I value family over most other things in life and I know that it is a very bad idea to co-sign notes, may payments for them or do business with them in general. It is always a good idea to be generous and give them the shirt off your back if need be.

Sometimes doing business with family works, but all to often it does not. No sense is taking a change. Ramsey is saying what my Grandfather told me 60 years ago. It was good counsel when my Grandfather gave it to me and it still is good counsel coming from Dave Ramsey.

[Phat Man Mike]

sorry to heat that! and been there done that too! got the car back was trashed and I was stuck with the pile of junk!

[pls1911]

The only time I ever relented on the No friends-No Family rule was with a bud after 20 years, descreetly "loaning" cash interest free for 60 days with several guns as collateral, at less than 50% of market.
I relented and loaned a Glock back one weekend to shoot with his son, and it took me 6 months to get it back.... he let his son take it back to college!!
I'm more than square now, and he won't ask again untill he can relaim them all.
It's been 2 years at this point, and while I don't want his hardware, I won't return any of it without repayment in full... I'd lke to have it outta here...
I'll give him 'till the first of 2012, and either get repayment, or will consider the hardware mine, get a bill of sale, and make it all available.
Bottom line... To friends or family give if you will, but never, never, never tie yourself up in a loan situation.
Ramseys's right on...life really IS that simple.

[Potsy]

I've had no trouble doing business with family and friends. I'd happily take a check for the full amount from any of them. In-Laws or Out-Laws.
I'd never loan anybody money or finanace anything with any expectation of getting it back. If I couldn't live without it, they'd have to go wanting. I got bills too.
Fortunately, my In-laws and Out-laws have better manners than to ask. Same goes for buddies as well.
Before anybody thinks I'm too hard-hearted, yeah, I've helped a few bud's out before, and got back every penny. You don't have to be rich to at least have a little pride. Now they've all got jobs and are old enough to know better.

Ditto on Ramsey. Listen to his show if it's in your area, read his books too. He's kinda like the bible, even if you don't agree with everything, he doesn't preach anything that will do you harm.

[Moonie]

I will make very small loans to my children, IF I have it to spare. If loans are not paid back then no further loans will be made until the the original loan is repaid. I will allow the children to work off loans with yard work.

I will not co-sign anything. I will have retirement money once time has come to retire.

[higgins]

Good intentions, charitable attitude, and being a generally helpful sort are all commendable traits, but when it comes to vehicles there's an overbearing consideration. I'm not a lawyer, but I'll bet in most states as long as you're the owner on a vehicle title, and it's registered to you, you are liable for damages if the new "owner" causes such. Verbal agreements, etc. are worthless. I would never turn over a vehicle to another person, related or not, until a new title (showing me as the leinholder if that's the case) and registration had been applied for and their tag put on the vehicle. I've sold a couple of vehicles to unrelated individuals in the past, and I always had them meet me at the courthouse where the title paperwork (including odometer statements, etc.) could be handled on the spot, and they can transfer their tag or get a new one. Also adds an air of officialdom to the transaction. If someone refused to meet me under those circumsgtances, no sale.

[MT Gianni]

Recluse, My son did a lot of hurtful things for a few years, left home @ 16, substance abuse, etc. We kept a relationship and got him into a National Guard Youth Challenge program. He got his GED and I gave him a truck and a couple of guns as a start in life. He was working as a millwright apprentice when he totaled the truck after 6 weeks, hit a deer, didn't know how fast but the kids behind him @ 120 mph couldn't catch him. I co-signed on another and made most of the payments for 8 months before I repo'd it. He has been in and out of the Air Force, sat and bummed for a year or more and watched a close friend do two terms of hard time.
We still love him and kept lines open though not money. Ten years later we have a good relationship, he is working steady and paying his bills. I feel for you and know that your's has been worse but as an adoptive father I still can't give up and am glad that I didn't.\
I hope that you get peace as time passes. Each child is different as is each set of parents and circumstances.
The first thing I would do would be to haul the constant reminder of the car off. Good luck with things, you are successful in so much I know that you have the ability to work this out also. Gianni.

[Recluse]

I am truly sorry for your situation. It has got to hurt.

Thanks, Chargar. Yeah, it hurts. Bad. And it's not going away. I've forgiven my cousin, but I have not forgot--nor will I. And as so long as he continues to feel like HE'S the one who got screwed on the deal because he's not getting any money out of a car that was never his (technically, the deal was between his daughter and me and my wife--the girl has been like a niece to us, but now THAT'S gone as well), I will never forget.

Rest of the immediate family is pretty upset about his attitude as well, but we all knew his dad (great uncle) and we know where he gets it from.

I should've known better. I should've known! [smilie=b:


A family who prays together, stays together (for the most part). Parents are obligated to teach their children who the Boss is and why they were created. The parents should also teach them that the parents are nothing but overseers until they are fully capable of doing the Lord's work intended for them. According to a poll on our board some time ago, something like 20 percent of us do not believe in the Lord. ... felix

Felix, I could not agree with you more, but remember: we got this girl when she had just turned sixteen, and through rather awkward circumstances, namely being that she still had close ties with her biological white trash mother.

We got the young lady in church several times--when she was hitting rock bottom or "at her breaking point" as she always called it--but I don't know what kind of an impression it ever made.

I continue to pray for her safety and well-being on a daily basis and I pray that as she grows older, she not hate me for simply caring about her, loving her, providing for her and trying to strengthen her "life compass" to a positive direction.

But my gut tells me she isn't going to make it and that she'll end up being the subject of some country & western song dealing with alcoholism, abused wives, drunken husbands and being flat broke and running from bill collectors.

Did what we could, especially me as she was a "daddy's girl" since she never knew her own dad--which her mom lied about to her and she STILL doesn't know the truth about that matter. Her mom's lied to her her entire life and she still doesn't know it.

I know it because I hired a private investigator after we all parted ways. Too many things didn't add up and I knew I'd never be able to sleep until I got some answers. Answers were not good, which is why I worry about the young lady still, even though she's now 20 and on her own.

We prayed, Felix. We prayed hard and we continue to. But sometimes you have to remember the words "Let THY will be done" rather than "Let MY will be done."

It's why we call it Faith, and times like this it's all that pulls you through on some days.

I appreciate the good thoughts and for those of you who've been down the "family and finances" path, I feel for you.

:coffee:

[maglvr]

"Well, if I missed a payment and you had to pay, I'd pay you back eventually"

Now that's funny right there!!! LMAO!!!

[azcruiser]

It's only money the their is printing it as fast as they can and in 12 to 16 month it's not going to be worth much anyway

[Bob Krack]

JD,
My wife and I legally fostered 38 children over a period of 10-1/2 years and legally adopted three of them.

In each and every case, if they wanted something - I gave it if I could afford it in exchange for a promise to work it off or pay for it. ONE time only.

Default ONE time and "I don't take checks on a closed account".

Several turned out terrific and a few are not worth the Oxygen they breathe. Some were absolutely incorrigible. We cared for all of them, we loved many of them, but looking back I can only say that we "saved" some of them and that was the greatest gift from God we have ever received.

I feel your pain more than you will ever believe.

Bob

[williamwaco]

================================================== ====


Never EVER loan money to anyone unless you are willing to consider it a gift with NO strings attached.

================================================== ====

This is the best advice you will ever get with rregard to lending money.

There is an old saying:

If you loan your money to a friend, you will lose both.

You can't really "lose" a relative but the advice still applies.

[kbstenberg]

My wife was appalled at me for not co-signing for my sisters car. 6 months later it was repossessed. The wife was surprised. I expected it.
Kevin

[frank505]

My exdaughter has still not been forgiven for all the **** she caused growing up and continuing her stupid behavior. She is now 30ish and the idiocy continues................ I married the best women in the world, who used to try to bring us together, wife now understands the rift. Some people just dont care I guess, really got dinged by a "friend", should have known better. He is a bad man, be very careful of those who wear their "religion" on thier sleeves, as the saying goes.
Sorry all this **** happens to us, we will all survive and can look anybody in the eye, unlike the bad ones. Stay strong.

[wildwilly]

Many years ago, when I was an LEO, an officer whom I casually knew approached me in the locker room and related to me that he was in a financial jam. Apparently, the tax refund which he had expected had not yet come through. It was obvious that it was distressful for him to ask me for a loan, with a promise to repay me as soon as his refund arrived.

We worked different shifts, so I never saw much of him. Within a month, he came to my home with an envelope with the cash amount of the initial loan plus some extra for interest. He expressed his gratitude and told me that not even his relatives would ever help him.

Though professionally we went our separate ways, our families have maintained a close friendship for nearly thirty years.

[troyboy]

There are two kinds of poeple in soceity. Givers and takers.

[PatMarlin]

Kind heart Recluse. You did good no matter how she turns out.

I think my mother was smart when she handed me the keys to her truck when I turned 18 and showed me the door. I couldn't make payments at that time,.

The truck got me going and I never asked her for a dime after that.

[Fishman]

There are two kinds of poeple in soceity. Givers and takers.

A true statement if I ever saw one.