I can't afford AP bullets so....

[Jamesconn]

I want to find what the hardest alloy is I was gonna pour the boolits with a screw inside of the alloy for my 30-06 I thought about having tungsten darts custom made instead of screws but im not fighting in a war.
Aged water quenched Linotype is the hardest alloy I can think of.
Do y'all know of anything better or what type of screws should I use or should I use nails?

If this recipe works good I might use them for .50 cal when I get an AR50 for myself on my 18th birthday.

[Gswain]

Aside from the problems you would face trying to keep a hard center centered in the mold while pouring a boolit around it, why the hell would you? You said it yourself, your not fighting a war.

[Jamesconn]

For fun shooting stuff and the feeling you get from accomplishing something.
And if it's to much of a PITA I'll just cast hard boolits but again which alloy?

[waksupi]

Sounds like a silly idea. Just go heavy for caliber with boolits, if you want penetration. Wheel weights are fine. My .35's punch right through 3/4" steel at 200 yards.

[Jamesconn]

I don't exactly have the money to buy guns all the time which is kinda why I'm casting in the first place.

[lwknight]

Your 30-06 will punch a hole in 1/2" steel with regular factory made jacketed bullets.
You should be able to get cast bullets up to velocity tp punch 1/4 to 5/16 easily.

I have 3 boxes of APs and never found a use for them.

[mold maker]

Unless you expect, to have, to punch through armor, why would you knowingly do this. What ever you kill can't be any deader.
If you penetrate steel back stops, or targets, they will be ruined.

[Doby45]

Your pure linotype boolits would not punch through much of anything, much less steel. Pure lino is very brittle and would probably make your boolits more like frangibles than AP.

[bowfin]

We will skip over the why and stick to the how:

The biggest problem with a hard insert in a bullet is to get it positioned the same way for every bullet in the batch and to have it centered. I would be worried that a screw, steel slug, or flechette would "float" out of position when the molten lead was poured into the mold.

My first efforts would be made with a hollow point mold and find something that would be a press fit into the hollowpoint.

But for the price of a hollowpoint mold, I would look at some of the tougher, jacketed bullets that might be had cheaper. A Mosin 91/30 with steel jacketed FMJ is nothing to sneeze at as far as penetration. I think you could buy that rifle plus a hundred rounds cheaper than buying a new hollow point mold.

[pdawg_shooter]

I know a guy who turned down a grade 8 bolt to .300 with a point on it. Hardened it and patched it back up with 16# paper. Shot them out of a P17 Enfield. They would go through the top flange on railroad tract. Dont know what they would be good for, just wanted to see if it would work.

[BulletFactory]

Its just good to know how do do stuff.

Try a hardened steel bearing, the kind that look like a rod, not a ball. Perhaps a hardened steel nail or bolt.

[cajun shooter]

Think about it fella's! This young man is not yet 18 and has discovered the world of bullet casting. He does not need or want a reason to do many thing. He just feels that it must be done. I remember when I first returned home from my tour of duty and picked up on casting as some of my friends were doing it. We all to the man was always looking for any new Elmer Keith or Skeeter "Load" we could try. I remember when they had the article about loading the Speer HBWC backwards in the case so you could stop a hijackers of a 707. We all loaded them right away even though we never took out any plane bandits. It did help the sales of Alcan AL-7 IIRC.

[sqlbullet]

I have tested bullets over BHN 31. Here is what i would do to.maximize hardness.

Use the isotope lead pigs that muddy creek Sam sells here. They weigh 31.5 #each. Cast them into a hot aluminum mold from lead between 750 & 800 degrees. Cut the series as early as possible without getting a lead smear and deep straight into cold salt water.

As was mentioned the bullets will be very brittle. You may be able to get a little maleability back by adding 1-2% tin,but this will pull down the hardness some.

You will want to preheat that core too. Touch want the lead as hot as possible without deforming when it hits the water.

Linotype is a poor choice because it's ratios are balanced. It won't get harder when you quench it.

[pmer]

I had a bag of 30 cal. AP from a gun show a long time ago. I put them up agaisnt a 1" plate at around 50 yards and they would dimple the back side and bounce back towards me - not fun. I found one insert and it was a .270 cal. boatail spitzer shape. That was out of a 30-06. That insert is hard though, I've used it as a center punch for drilling and it doesn't loose its point.




Sounds like a silly idea. Just go heavy for caliber with boolits, if you want penetration. Wheel weights are fine. My .35's punch right through 3/4" steel at 200 yards.

3/4" steel ? 200 yards ? Dude come on, I need some pictures of that. :p

[pmer]

Oh, one more idea. I had some .30 cal. sabots that would take a .22 cal. J word too. I don't know if they are still availble but I suppose you could put anything in one of them.

[waksupi]

3/4" steel ? 200 yards ? Dude come on, I need some pictures of that. :p

Wish I knew you wanted pictures, I was camped on that range last weekend. Try a 290 gr. Bator boolit at 2170 fps, it will do it.

[OuchHot!]

Try the studs from winter tires, that is tungsten if I recall....maybe you can drill a short recess in the nose of one mold cavity (not my molds, you won't) and get that to position the stud during casting....would be a real irritating process.

[scb]

3/4" steel ? 200 yards ? Dude come on, I need some pictures of that. :p

Only 100 yds but .75 thick - almost went thru.

http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr236/scb2008/100_1039.jpg
http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr236/scb2008/100_1041.jpg

With these. 9.3 x74R

http://i487.photobucket.com/albums/rr236/scb2008/93pp.jpg

Target was swinging. I bet if it were ridged they'd have gone thru.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

I have tested bullets over BHN 31. Here is what i would do to.maximize hardness.

Use the isotope lead pigs that muddy creek Sam sells here. They weigh 31.5 #each. Cast them into a hot aluminum mold from lead between 750 & 800 degrees. Cut the series as early as possible without getting a lead smear and deep straight into cold salt water.

As was mentioned the bullets will be very brittle. You may be able to get a little maleability back by adding 1-2% tin,but this will pull down the hardness some.

You will want to preheat that core too. Touch want the lead as hot as possible without deforming when it hits the water.

Linotype is a poor choice because it's ratios are balanced. It won't get harder when you quench it.

Just happen to have 1 pair left.

Sam :D

[pmer]

waksupi and scb, I'm impressed, I would've lost that bet. LOL Another feather in the cap for the boolit caster!

I have a 338-06, I wonder which heavy for caliber boolit would work good for it?

I have shot the RCBS 255 SWC through 1/16" sheets of sheet metal with a 45 colt revolver. I had 4 sheets 2 feet apart and five shots all went through 3 and made a large dent in the fourth. It was a non magnum load and the alloy was straight wheel weight.

[Rangefinder]

I have a whole mess of steel core AP bullets in .30 cal that I really haven't found a use for yet and haven't really had time to play with them to see what I can get 'em to punch through. BUT, I know my 6mm Rem with 90gr. FMJ's will melt a hole right through 1/2" plate that looks like I did it with a plasma cutter. I suppose if I ever need to punch a hole through the cylinder wall of someone's truck, it will all come in really handy. ;)

HOWEVER... :D I am certainly the experimental, "I wonder how I could do this..." type. SO, how I would make cast AP boolits would be to use concrete anchor nails for the core--cut to length and point uniformed according to the length of the boolit I intended to use. Then I would HP the mold of the chosen boolit, using another anchor nail as the HP pin and setting it to depth according to the length of the cores. Then use my Lyman 450 to size and seat the core in one stroke. Cast the HP boolits out of something soft--not brittle. When the core begins penetrating, you want the outer material to peel away and follow it through the hole for inertia, not shatter outward into dust particles. I think I'd use a Paper Patch boolit also in order to punch up velocities--especially with a soft alloy being used for the boolit itself.

OK, not good---now I have the temptation to head out to the shop and play with this a little further and I have too many projects stacked up already with no time. Thanks a LOT! :D

[Phat Man Mike]

around here most ranges don't like A/P ammo. can start fires in the dry season! :( and some 7.62 x 54R surplus has a steel core. IIRC

[geargnasher]

Most US AP ammo have Tungsten cores.

I was under the impression that federal law prohibits the manufacture or use of AP projectiles, anyone have the facts on this?

Gear

[lwknight]

They are not allowed to sell the AP FN-5.7 to public. No law against owning or trading what already exists. ( So far)
I would guess similar on the 30 cal.

[Artful]

Most US AP ammo have Tungsten cores.

I was under the impression that federal law prohibits the manufacture or use of AP projectiles, anyone have the facts on this?

Gear

8/28/1986 Became Public Law No: 99-408. aka cop killer bullet ban law
Restrictions for handgun ammunition using metals such as Brass, Bronze, Tungsten Carbide, etc. - ban applied to handgun ammunition only as far as I remember

[Jamesconn]

? Ive seen brass used in greenie bullets and is tungsten regular illegal or just tungsten carbide?
If we just make it not sell it?
I know it seems like no normal non cop people would need AP or semi AP ammo but down here cops are corrupt and useless the sherrifs are replaced about twice a year at the least and there's been home invasions and a SUV has been driving slowly around the neighborhood with binoculars.
I'm not going to do something stupid don't worry, but I would like to know I have the capability to take out a vehicle, and I tho kit would bee cool to show the friends at the range that I can make that with my own hands and my range is outside and no backstops just a big dirt hill with rebar sticking out to paste the targets

[geargnasher]

Not worried about you doing anything "stupid", James, worried about you possibly getting screwed by the big boys if what you're proposing happened to be illegal and the wrong person found out. Maybe it is just handgun ammo that has the ban, but I figured it would be worth bringing up anyway just in case. I know solid machined brass boolits are legal and they can do some serious damage to steel.

Gear

[wgr]

get a hollow point mould cast some bullets and put piece of a chain saw file in the ends

[-06]

With a bit of looking you can find AP boolits from several sources and in several calibers. Then load what you want. Just remember that if they richochet they can do serious damage--like any bullet of course. I put an '06 AP through a 1/2" beam, both sides of a 2" pipe and it still knocked out a grape fruit sized chunk of concrete block from the wellhouse. While at the Aberdeen Md. "tank" museum I saw an old German Tiger with several '06 AP rounds buried in it's armor. They were about two inches into the armor. Nothing to worry about as the armor was about six inches. IMO, having a wee bit of AP is prudent. Never can tell when you may need to stop something less than a tank--lol.

[zuke]

Get a hollow point mold and use a penetrator that's the same dia as the Hp pin.
Remove the HP pin, put the nail/pin/bb in it's place and cast your bullet.
When you open the mold it'll be cast into place.

[7of7]

Most US AP ammo have Tungsten cores.

I was under the impression that federal law prohibits the manufacture or use of AP projectiles, anyone have the facts on this?

Gear

Manufacture of AP bullets is against federal law.. they give the specifics on the batfe website.. (geared toward incidents such as the LA bank robbers, and handguns)

Already manufactured AP is fine though.. and we are talking the bullets only.. not the cartridge.

[lwknight]

How can it be illegal to manufacture AP bullets when the military uses them???
Where will the military get its AP ammo?

[beladran]

Manufacturer of ap ammo falls under one of the FFL licensees.. maybe class 2

[468]

...
I know it seems like no normal non cop people would need AP or semi AP ammo but down here cops are corrupt and useless the sherrifs are replaced about twice a year at the least and there's been home invasions and a SUV has been driving slowly around the neighborhood with binoculars.
I'm not going to do something stupid don't worry, but I would like to know I have the capability to take out a vehicle, and I tho kit would bee cool to show the friends at the range...

Am I the only one uncomfortable with this discussion?...chatting with a teenager about how to make armor piercing bullets...?:-?

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Had a fellow ask me about them several months ago, Wanted to turn a steel bullet on my lathe and try to PP it. Have no idea if it would work. Not gonna try it in ny of my guns. That is for sure.

Sam :D

[buck1]

Gear gives sage advice.

[firefly1957]

As mentioned above you might look into sabots another choice is to cast your bullets out of zinc . it is only 60% the weight of lead and quite hard . It will foul your barrel but if you like a challenge google zinc bullets. Another point zinc can solder to aluminum molds be careful it is best to use it in a steel or iron mold or a throw away if you have one you do not care about. if you want to try this you already have a pocket full of zinc any penny since 1982? is copper plated zinc and will melt with a propane torch.

I have shot though a inch of cast steel with a 22 bullet made from spent 22 rimfire brass and a lead core with 30-06 and sabots the velocity was about 4000fps. the target was old rear brake calipers hardly worn but badly warped now they are holely too.

In my early days of shooting I had some cheap 30-06 military rounds and was shooting steel and was not very impressed. Then I hit the steel with a 110 gr bullet loaded to around 3300 feet per second WOW that penetrated deeper then a military 174 gr ball round did and it was a hollow point!

[thehouseproduct]

Am I the only one uncomfortable with this discussion?...chatting with a teenager about how to make armor piercing bullets...?:-?
Might be the only one. I've been curious how to make AP rounds too. I settled on M855 bullets sabot loaded into 30-06 at 4200fps. I haven't figured out what to try them on, but it should go through like a laser.

Disclaimer: M855 is designated as penetrator, not AP. So the process is legal no matter how you spin it.

[Jamesconn]

I'll have to look at the governments fancy letter soup division to find the legality of these boolits.

[Jamesconn]

Y'all are probably right why should we be talking about AP ammo to a teen, well I'd like to think I'm more responsible than mos and I like to see stuff blow up and get destroyed.

[thehouseproduct]

Y'all are probably right why should we be talking about AP ammo to a teen, well I'd like to think I'm more responsible than mos and I like to see stuff blow up and get destroyed.

There are plenty of us much older than you who still like blowing stuff up.

[Artful]

Jamesconn try here
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc18.wais&start=1449952&SIZE=48951&TYPE=TEXT



18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B)

A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

* bolding by me

Now the bad part is I also found
http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26867


Posted 11 July 2011 - 11:50 AM
BATF Classifies .223, 6.5 Grendel and 6.8SPC as Pistol Round

BATF and EA Recent Finding.

EA has had to remove our Trident bullets in .223, 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC. The BATF has ruled that all of these cartridges are now pistol cartridges. Since they are now pistol cartridges their construction now falls under the content and construction limitations of the 68 GAC and pistol cartridges.

Currently from other bullet makers like Barnes, solid .223 caliber bullets are still being manufactured and sold . We are working with our BATF IOI person to find out the following,

A) Is Barnes bullets and all other maker that constructs solid bullets in .223 going to have to stop.
If not then why do we have to stop since out basic shape and metallurgical content of our PFP bullets are the same as theirs?
C) Since they are now handgun caliber limited how does Magtech solid copper pistol bullets not fall under the 68 GAC as AP?
D) If Solid copper is not considered a violation of the 68 GAC in handgun bullets then it should also be not a violation of the 68 GAC to make EA’s PFP bullets from solid copper as Magtech does.

Those who have T6 ammunition and PFP bullets will be contacted by the BATF to recover any bullets or ammunition that have not been FIRED yet.

I apologize for this inconvenience and hopefully we can get this matter straightened out one way or another.

Jay Wolf
Pr. Elite Ammunition

[maglvr]

OP's question reminds me of the good ole days of my youth.
Epoxying a 1/2" finish nail in the hollow end of a Crossman pellet and loading it backwards.
Let me tell you, with 10 pumps in the old rifle, those will sure get a cat out of your trash can in a HURRY!!;)

[firefly1957]

maglvr that is something else we can't do in most places today! Fortunately cats are only protected if "OWNED" here and the coyotes are as likely to get them.

[7of7]

Artful.. good post, but the first statement in that law,...

"18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B)
A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely..."

The Key word is May... How many 30 cal handguns are out there? .223 is now used in handguns.. and with that, the quote that you followed with..
Very informative..

I do remember when I was his age,.. armor piercing.. just because you wanted it to be able to go through a hunk of metal.. not because you wanted to hurt anyone or had any malicous intent..

[Rangefinder]

I do remember when I was his age,.. armor piercing.. just because you wanted it to be able to go through a hunk of metal.. not because you wanted to hurt anyone or had any malicous intent..

Yup--amen to that. Kind of like putting M-80's in a coffee can full of water to see how far it would throw a spray or under a trash can to launch it, etc. It's kinda rough for kids like us these days. 90% of what I did for cheap entertainment would be a felony now. I still like a big boom now and then--but it's tough to do without causing the county mounties to go on high alert and show up in their full 'ninja' costumes. Having been a Pyro-tech for the big fireworks shows for a while alleviated some of the pressure though--especially when it came time to "dispose" of the duds. ;) 6" mortars make really impressive reactive targets when you hit 'em with something fast and hot like a 6mm Remi. Tannerite-schmannerite... :D

[Artful]

Artful.. good post, but the first statement in that law,...

"18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B)
A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely..."

The Key word is May... How many 30 cal handguns are out there? .223 is now used in handguns.. and with that, the quote that you followed with..
Very informative..

I do remember when I was his age,.. armor piercing.. just because you wanted it to be able to go through a hunk of metal.. not because you wanted to hurt anyone or had any malicous intent..

Might be easier to think of what rounds hasn't been used in a Contender or Encore.

The problem with poorly written laws is that don't do what they intended and cause more trouble then they are worth
- I remember when it was in the media and LEO lobby was begging them not to mention vest wear-age as the bad guys were sure enough aiming for head/neck shots.

One of my friends in County Mounties informed me they are finding humanoid targets out in the desert with a triangle painted just below the neck showing where the vest stops and vulnerably area begins. The gang banger's, drug runners and Illegal Alien smugglers do practice.

:holysheep

In the end the anti firearms people may have just gotten the law they needed as all the handguns firing rifle cartridges that will defeat anything less than Level IV ballistic plate, could with a push by them be eliminated as cop killer ammunition, but in the mean time they have educated the bad guys to go for the "triangle of death" as john calls it or head shots where no protection is provided.

[Cowboy T]

These "rulings" by the BATFE--the same organization caught red-handed running guns to Mexico--have got to stop. We need to vote their anti-freedom sponsors out of there in 2012 and get some actual Constitutionalists into office (that means neither Dems nor Repubs, BTW--both gave the Constitution the ol' heave-ho years ago).

Crazy "rulings" like this only seriously affect the law-abiders. They do not, have not, and never will seriously affect the baddies. No, wait...it'll make it *easier* for the baddies, since like in the UK and Australia, they'll know we're unarmed. Remind me just why Switzerland is the safest country on Earth?

[jhalcott]

Definetly try the SABOTS if you can get them. A pure lead slug at close to 3000 fps has incredible penetrating ability! Just remember, you want ductile NOT brittle alloys for penetration.

[Jamesconn]

Well I just bought more .22 today at walmart and the water level of the ammo is a half inch from the top I weighed it and i have 42.8lbs of .22 saved.

Im glad i filled the can or it will probably take another box, but it went up another buck it was 16.some for the federal 550 bulk pack.

Im really scared the way the ammunition is rising good thing I just started reloading and casting this makes me want to stockup on powder primers and lead, but my biggest issue is where to put it.

If you store a large amount of gunpowder and primers or lets say I only want about a pound in my house at a time where can i put the rest the garage will not do as it gets well above 110 there most of the time and its 80-90% humidity.

[Rangefinder]

If you store a large amount of gunpowder and primers or lets say I only want about a pound in my house at a time where can i put the rest the garage will not do as it gets well above 110 there most of the time and its 80-90% humidity.

As long as it's sealed good, the temp really won't have much affect on it. My loading station is out in my wood shop. Being a metal building, summer temp hits 100+ easily all summer and drops to -30 or lower in the winter. I've never had a problem.

[7of7]

I just keep mine in the garage.. of course, it rarely gets above 90 here in the Seattle area..
What you can do, is build a storage box for it.. 1.5" thick top bottom and sides.. It will get warm, however, there won't be the rapid temp changes.. that is where the humidity does its damage... high humidity day, then the temp drops at night, and the dewpoint changes so moisture formes and gets everything wet..
I had a partial box of 22's, and they got damp because of humidity and temp changes, about 30 degrees temp change.. needless to say the next day, they didn't work..
I ended up putting them out in the sun, in a black wheelbarrow several days when it was nice and sunny.. Some would misfire, but most worked just fine..

Pay attention to how much you store, because in some locals, there are limits on how much powder you can have.. depending upon the storage method employed.

Did you get the lead that Mike sent you?

[Jamesconn]

No I have not I will not accept anything from anybody now when I get my press and such id like some boolit samples for 9mm and lube before i buy a mold and I also could use a suggestion on boolit for my .30 carbine.

I also am looking for a hollow point on the 9 I'm gonna load the nickel plated brass I have as defense loads.

And I could use powder suggestions on both currently I have a pound of hodgedon titegroup and Remington 51/2 small pistol primers already started priming cases.

[leadman]

For the 30 carbine Lee has 2 molds that work well, the 113gr RFN and the 120gr RN. Both have gas checks. The 120gr feeds better in all guns, while the 113gr will feed in most. These boolits also work well in other 30/31 caliber firearms for cheap loads.
Lee's 120gr TC for the 9mm is a good one, but is not a HP.

The 30 carbine works real well with W296/ H110 for full velocity loads. The surplus WC820 was loaded by the gov't in the 30 carbine, so if you can find that reasonable it works great.

Don't be afraid to accept items from the members here, they would not offer it if they could not afford to give it away. It is a joy to see a young person interested in our hobby.

[Jamesconn]

It is not that I think yall cant afford it. Its just that it seems like I didnt work for it and its hard for me to enjoy something if I dont work for it. I melted the 3lbs of range lead and It was so shallow I just left it in the pot.
I made a deal with my father that he would buy the rest of the metallic reloading equipment i needed which is about 3-4 things and Ill buy the shotgun stuff.

I started priming cases today and im just making a small batch 1 magazine full just to see if they shoot fine then ill crank them out chinese style.

[Wayne Smith]

Storage of powder and primers in the garage - James, tell your dad he needs an old but functioning refrigerator in the garage for his beer, wine, ect. You piggy back on it with your primers and powder!

[geargnasher]

How can it be illegal to manufacture AP bullets when the military uses them???
Where will the military get its AP ammo?

Uh, same reason you don't own your own personal Abrams tank or ICBM with nuclear warhead?

James, I'm NOT trying to rain on your parade, I like blowing stuff up, too, but there are a few agencies you want to be sure you don't ever get cross with, the BATFE and IRS are two that come to mind. Right or wrong, they will take away your birthday if you aren't careful, all I was suggesting is that you do a little homework before you put yourself in a potentially bad spot. If it's legal, GO FOR IT, I'd love to hear how it turns out.

Gear

[GARCIA]

Jamesconn empty your inbox.
Tried sending you a PM.
Have some AP bullets and maybe we can work a trade?

Tom

[missionary5155]

Good morning
You could try a ball bearing dropped into the nose before pouring. But you must realise that BB will bounce back when striking a hard surface it cannot penetrate.

[MikeS]

Did you get the lead that Mike sent you?

I haven't sent it, he won't PM me his address! (that makes it kind of hard to send it)