308 Winchester

[pistolman44]

Just ordered a custom .308 Winchester 20" SS Encore rifle barrel 1-10 tw from Kurt Bellm. Need to know what would be a good cast bullet for this barrel? I cast for all my hand guns but never casted for a rifle. Plan on useing this for eastern white tails.

[onesonek]

Well here's what I would do,,,
I would look at getting this mold.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-175A-D.png


But first I would call Bellm and have him hold off chambering the barrel, or at least cutting the throat. And then, ask if he would slug the bore/groove, as to set up the mold for it accordingly. If he won't, then I would just set the mold up to drop a .309-.310" Once the mold is in hand, cast a few samples sized to .3095" (assuming the groove is .308"), load them seating the GC, to the base of the neck. Send those so the chamber can be throated to match the boolit. Then too, if the order isn't so far along that I could change it some, I would go to a 1-12" twist, which will still easily handle a 180 gr. jacketed if you so wish.

[Larry Gibson]

[I][Then too, if the order isn't so that I could change it some, I would go to a 1-12" twist/I]

+1, much better for any cast bullet. I would consider a 14" twist and get the lyman 311041 for them whitetails.

Larry Gibson

[W.R.Buchanan]

That particular Accurate Mould is essentially a Lyman 311041 clone. I have a Lachmiller clone just like it. (Left pic). Accurate does nice work and you can call out exactly what you want the mould to do, as opposed to buying a generic mould for a few bucks less and taking whatever it drops and working with that. I'm looking at 3 separate moulds from him in the near future, for a.44 and two .45-70 moulds.

My Lachmiller mould drops ww at .313 and is 173 gr. Good all around bullet for .30 cal. :cbpour:

Also look at Lyman 311299 (center) and Lee .308-190 (right) if they still make it.

Also look at XMP 5744 to make them go. Majorty of "most accurate" cast boolit loads for .308 and .30-06 in Lyman #49 use 5744. It is just an easy powder to get satisfactory results with. Certanly there are many others too, but this one stands out.

Good article in Rifle Mag "Special Edition Fall of 2010" on cast bullets for .30 rifles by Mike Venturino with many loads for these and several other cast bullets. He uses 5744 exclusively, and told me personally that the reason he uses this powder for all his .30 cal cast boolit loads is because it produces satisfactory results over a wide range of circumstances with less fuss and muss. Back issue available from www.riflemagazine.com

Also in that artilce is a good pic of 311041 showing the basic form for this bullet. It has been copied by several mould makers. It was originally called Lyman 31141

My personal favorite for .308 is 311299 @200gr shown below with 21 gr of 5744 for about 1600 fps from the 16.5" barrel with 1 in 10" twist on my RGS77 in .308 Your 20" barrel should develope about 100 fps more.

I personally prefer the 1 in 10" as these bullets run best at 1600-1800fps and with the faster twist you don't have to drive them as hard to achieve good accuracy.

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

Randy

I personally prefer the 1 in 10" as these bullets run best at 1600-1800fps and with the faster twist you don't have to drive them as hard to achieve good accuracy.

The bullets "run best" at that velocity because of the twist. You can get equal, if not better accuracy, at that same velocity with a 12 or 14" twist barrel. Bullets upwards of 180 gr are sufficiently stabilized at even a lower velocity for accuracy. You don't have to push the slower 12 and 14" twists "hard" to get accuracy.

The difference is the accuracy can get iffy above 1950 fps with the 10" twist. Accuracy with the 12" twist can still be very good up through 2200 fps with the 12" twist and higher with the 14" twist. The reason has to do with the RPM above a certain point and adverse affect of centrifugal force on the accuracy of the bullet in flight. If you want increased power and range for those whitetails then it's a lot easier to do with a 12 or 14" twist than with a 10" twist.

Looks like you've got a handle on the basic 311041 design.

Larry Gibson

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yeah: I know about the specific range of RPM's for a given bullet, and as a result I guess for hunting purposes faster would be better. I understand that accuracy would suffer at higher vels with the faster twist, and it is easy to see that accuracy would be similar at the higher speeds with the slower twist. good point.

I know that alot of .308's came with 1-12 barrels but most of the ones I'm seeing nowadays are 1-10 and I think that has more to do with the availibility of longer jacketed bullets than anything else. Plus most generic makers are looking for as much versitility as possible from their guns to attract more sales.. I doubt the average guy would know the difference.

But we do. :holysheep

I know that Venturino makes these bullets out of Linotype so he can run above 1900 fps. Have you got any experience with faster speeds using WW for material? I personally don't see the need for linotype especially with the gas check. These boolits are going to zip right thru any deer in my neck o'the woods here in CA and just about any speed. Any amount that they upset while inside the animal seems like it would be a good thing.

Now I think about it his linotype boolits were being shot in guns with 1-10 barrels so if he was running them faster he needed the harder material to grip the rifling better. huh?

I saw a very nice 10 point muley buck , in fact the biggest I have seen in this area, grazing with about 10 does in the dirt parking lot across from Lake Casitas yesterday. He was every bit of 125 lbs! That's a good buck out here, but I would have to shoot him with a Barnes type bullet anyway as I live in the range of the Condor, and all bullets containing lead are banned for all hunting in the "Condor Sanctuary".

I doubt any of those boolits would get stopped by a target that small.

I bought that Lachmiller mould specifically for my .30-30 but it has many other uses too.

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

My hunting 311041s are cast soft (WW/pb at 50/50 + 2% tin) and HP'd to about 1/3 the length of the nose. I've a shortened stem in my Lyman 311041 HP mould but the 1/8" Foorster HP tool works very well also. They give expansion and penetration pretty much equal to 170 jacket FPs at the same velocities out to 200 yards. I generally push them at 21-2200 fps out of my 12" twist rifles. As it is a hunting load I clean the barrel every 6-8 shots to maintain accuracy. If I've not got the deer in that many shots I might as well go home and clean the guns anyways.

I've shot a lot of bullets cast of WWs + 2% tin in .30/.31 cals with 9 - 10" twists upwards of 1800 - 1900 fps with excellent accuracy. You can also water quench the bullets to harden them more. Mike gets his linotype new and it does cast up pretty bullets. Too hard and brittle for my tastes. I've a bit of linotype accumulated over the years and mix it at 50/50, 60/40 and 70/30 LT/pb. This give a hard bullet but the alloy isn't as brittle. Nothing wrong with WWs. I add the tin because the last few buckets seem to not have much tin in them. Adding 2% tin to straight WWs gives me a tinary alloy of about 94/2.5/3.5 give or take. That's enough antimony so it heat treats well, enough tin so it casts well and with 94% tin it can also be a soft alloy for lessor velocity applications. They don't cast as pretty as straight linotype but the beauty is in the shooting anyways.

Larry Gibson

[LUCKYDAWG13]

i use the lyman 311041 mold in my 17" 308 win 1-10 twist encore barrel
it shoots ok but i still need to find a good load for hunting

[pdawg_shooter]

If you want to avoid the leading an accuracy problem you might try paper patching. Size .301/.3015, give them two wraps of 16# paper, lube and load. Full jacketed velocity and accuracy that way.

[onesonek]

If you want to avoid the leading an accuracy problem you might try paper patching. Size .301/.3015, give them two wraps of 16# paper, lube and load. Full jacketed velocity and accuracy that way.

I was thinking of trying PP'ing for my .308 Encore barrel when it gets here. But then remembered, that barrel blank is polygonal rifled,,,not sure how it would work. Any thoughts on that issue pdawg?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Larry: thanks for the info. Could you send me, or post a pic of one of your HP 311041's, and the mould.

Who did you have rework the mould?


Randy

[Larry Gibson]

Larry: thanks for the info. Could you send me, or post a pic of one of your HP 311041's, and the mould.

Who did you have rework the mould?

Randy

No "rework" on the mould, back in the day you could buy them this way. I got this one in '68 or '69. I've no idea how many bullets I have cast with that mould but it is a lot.

Over the years I gradually shortened the HP stem a little at a time looking for good expansion in deer and minimal loss of the expansion petals. The depth of the HP cavity is .165" and it is .1" in diameter. With the proper alloy expansion and penetration are excellent.

Larry Gibson

[JIMinPHX]

If I was ordering a CUSTOM rifle barrel from a barrel maker, I would ask him what boolit he recommends.

[waksupi]

If I was ordering a CUSTOM rifle barrel from a barrel maker, I would ask him what boolit he recommends.

Jim, the heck of it is, there are VERY few custom rifle barrel makers who know squat about cast boolits.

[JIMinPHX]

He should at least know how much free bore he cut in the chamber. That would be a start. If he knows more than that, it's a bonus.

[onesonek]

I would agree with Waksupi, as 3 of the 4 custom barrel makers I have used for the TC, seem to have little knowledge in cast boolits. Beyond that Jim, yes they would know their dimensions, but generally they all set up to saami spec's, unless otherwise specified, (albeit, generally tighter in the throat). That is why I suggested, as I have done with my TC custom barrels. That is is to build the barrel to your desired dummy round, rather than assemble a round to match the barrel. And again, most custom barrel makers have tighter tolerence's in the neck and throat than production guns. This could lead to some issues with the normal cast rules of thumb. Specially, when considering over groove dimensions. Since the Encore's debut, I had one made to saami spec., or as the maker would normally do it. Of the last 10 barrels, all have been chambered to a dummy round. It is far better that way imho. Specially in a single shot, where you can set your OAL longer than spec., keeping the base of the bullet/boolit out of the powder space. But may be more so with cast, in having that neck/throat set up the way one wants or needs it.

One could do it I suppose, by just telling the maker to cut the neck and throat to fit, say a .3100" boolit, then take measurements from say, AM's diagram or other, and do the math for the throat length. But this I feel, wouldn't be quite as precise.

[pdawg_shooter]

I was thinking of trying PP'ing for my .308 Encore barrel when it gets here. But then remembered, that barrel blank is polygonal rifled,,,not sure how it would work. Any thoughts on that issue pdawg?

Never had the chance to try one. As the rifling need to cut the patch so it releases at the muzzle, I dont know. Back when, the rifling was real shallow, and the bullet had to be wrapped in the correct direction so the spin would remove the patch. Might work here, you will have to try it and post the results. We can all learn something here.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Larry: very cool! I might have one of the cavities on my Lachmiller mould HP'd just so I can duplicate your efforts.

That.44 cal Mihec mould I have is the first HP mould I have ever used. The bullets are definately the coolest I have ever made.

I have a .45-300 FNGC back at RCBS right now that I am looking at having HP'd. Providing they can make it drop bullets bigger than .461-2. Right now it drops at .459 and they won't size. If they won't fix it, then I will sell it and get another mould and HP it.

I like the hole!

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

Yup, I like "the hole" also. HPs get a lot of bad press from those who use the wrong HP of the wrong weight, of the wrong alloy used on the wrong game. Easier to blame the bullet as "bad" than to admit their own choice and use was wrong. The other place HPs get a lot of bad press is from the WFN hard cast boys who feel they need to denegrate the HP to justify their own choice.

Everyone just knows HPs are strictly verboten on pigs, right? After all the bullets just blow up on the gristle armor plate, right? HPs lack penetration to use on pigs, right? Well look at the success on pigs with the Lyman 429640 Devestor the OP is having "down under" and out of rifle at higher velocities! According to the anti HP pundits those bullets should be blowing up an makeing just nasty surface wounds. No way should they be expanding, penetrating and killing as the pictures show. Over the years I've found the same to be true with HPs of .30 - .45 caliber; use a correct alloy with a correct HP and expansion, penetration and killing power will be very good indeed. That is the reality of it.

Larry Gibson

BTW; I've a very good RCBS 45-300-FNGC also. Cast of 16-1, HP'd with the 1/8" Forster and further opened with a taper drill and then pushed at 1800 fps out of my H&R OM expansion and penetration are optimum to the max effective range for hunting. Those drop at .459 which is also fine in the .458 OM barrel.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Larry my .45-300 is definately undersized, not so much because of the OD but more because the things aren't round and since they won't size I can''t make them round. The rear end of the bullets are so small that the gas checks won't even stay on..

I figure mine was made towards the end of a run and the cherry was getting worn. If they can't fix it I might send it to Eric and have him increase the dia of the driving bands a few Thou and rear of the bullet so a gas check will stay on.

I have to admire his work, as you probably know I own a machine shop, and I already know I have more sophisticated machines than he does , but I have to tell you, I would never even consider doing a major change to one of my moulds unless there was absolutely no other way. And even then I probably wouldn't. Margin for error is exactly ZERO, and I don't work that close most of the time. And especially since I've never done the job before. I hate experimenting on my own stuff.

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

Randy

Hopefully RCBS can fix it for you.

Larry Gibson

[nanuk]

I was thinking of trying PP'ing for my .308 Encore barrel when it gets here. But then remembered, that barrel blank is polygonal rifled,,,not sure how it would work. Any thoughts on that issue pdawg?


any idea how the Whitworth rifles worked with the Hex rifling?

[onesonek]

I was thinking of trying PP'ing for my .308 Encore barrel when it gets here. But then remembered, that barrel blank is polygonal rifled,,,not sure how it would work. Any thoughts on that issue pdawg?

I may check that out once it gets here,,,it would be nice to have PP option if possible. Although, this barrel wasn't set up with cast in mind, rather with a 150 gr. Nosler ET seated in a dummy round. Being a mono bullet, is the reason I went with polygonal. Also figured if they won't shoot the way I expect, I could always just use my number one choice in J's, which is the NP.
Also this maker is noted for tight throats, so patching to at least .001" over groove might prove impossible. On the other hand, with some experimentation, it might shoot PP well enough to be useful for some applications.


any idea how the Whitworth rifles worked with the Hex rifling?

I know of them/it, but no real depth knowledge or experience with such. Some other's might.