Setting up for boolits in a new 9mm

[MtGun44]

We have been having a steady flow of "9mm leading and hitting sideways" sort of threads, so I thought it might be useful to report what I just did to check out my "new" Walther
P1 (P38 w/aluminum frame) 9mm handgun before shooting boolits in it.

First, I had fired about 20 rounds of factory 9mm ball ammo through the pistol, just to
see if it would work properly and how the accuracy was. No problems, and I was pleasantly surprised that the trigger was decent in both SA and DA modes, and the
sights are not at all bad.

First, let's clean the gun up a bit. Brass brush and a couple patches, nothing big. Now,
I picked up a Lee 358-105-SWC boolit that I happened to have handy and a 1/4" steel
rod with a .25 ACP case permanently jammed on one end. I dismounted the barrel
and dropped the boolit into the chamber, and drove it through the lubricated barrel with
a small brass hammer. Before it miked at .359 x .360 and after, two rifling grooves
were .3585 and one was .358, so the bore is a good bit oversized, fairly common
in European 9mms in my experience.

So now I take a case that was fired in the gun and chamfer the mouth and clean it
inside with a brass brush and check the inside with my pin gauges. A .356 (minus)
pin gauge will just barely enter the fired case mouth. This is worrisome because it is
pretty clear that I will need .359 boolit or larger to make this one work, and now there
is a question of whether the chamber will accept (and release when fired!) a loaded
round with a .359 boolit seated. I will start VERY low and see if the chamber will
safely release the fat boolits.

So now, I need to make up a dummy round and see how it will chamber with a .359
boolit seated. I size and expand a case with my single stage 9mm die set (I have a
Dillon 550 setup, too) and seat a .359 Lee 358-105-SWC boolit to the crimp groove
and then run it into the TC die. I drop the dummy round and it chambers up until about
1/8" is protruding at the back. Since I don't know much about the P38 design, I slip
the slide onto the barrel and close it all the way, noting that the breech face is recessed about 1/8" into the slide, so the round is fitting the chamber just fine - good news!.
Next, I want to see if the brass is sizing down the .359 boolit when it is seated. I
measure the expander in the die set and it measures .3535, so there is some concern
that the expanded case may size down the boolit as it is seated.

I also inspect the lead shoulder of the boolit which is protruding from the case, looking
for rifling marks. I see nothing, also good. If I was seeing rifling, or the round would
not fully seat with 1 lb or less force, I would seat the boolit deeper until it would. TC
setting is also a controlling factor in the dummy round seating properly. Both are OK
for my dummy round.

Pulling the seated boolit from the dummy round is next, and it still mike's out at .359, which is great news. So with my std air cooled wheel weights with this Lee boolit,
unsized at .359 and seated with my normal single stage press dies, I can expect to
deliver a boolit that is at least 1/2 of one thousandth of an inch larger than the
groove diameter. I hope that is enough, and it likely will be.

So - now I know that I probably need fatter boolits in this gun than my normal .357
or .358 diameter that I use in with my Lee 356-120-TC mold which is my most
commonly used 9mm boolit. I will try the .358 version of this one and see if it is
big enough to work in the .3585 groove diameter barrel without leading. I won't
be suprised if it is not big enough.

So - if you are starting out with a 9mm this is the path you should take.

1. Slug the barrel, and measure groove diameter with a MICROMETER. A caliper is
typically only +/- .001 or even .002" accuracy and this isn't good enough for this
job. You need a micrometer with .0001" accuracy for this job. Enco tools
online frequently has them on sale for under $35.

2. Plan on using a boolit about .001" larger than groove diameter, and you might even need .002 larger.

3. I recommend the two Lee designs 358-105-SWC and 356-120-TC used with
NRA 50-50 lube. I do not recommend the tumble lube designs from Lee, although
some have had success with them, many have had serious problems in 9mm. The
Lee Alox tumble lube system is marginal, but very cheap to get started in, a signficant
advantage for the new caster. It seems to work most reliably in lower pressure and velocity loads.

4. Make a dummy round to set the LOA and degree of taper crimp (TC), and see
whether a case with a boolit the correct diameter will chamber properly. Boolit
diameter MIGHT be too large to chamber, and LOA and TC are set to work with your
chamber.

5. Pull the boolit from the dummy round and make sure you have not sized it down
during the seating process.

If you follow this routine, you will have a good chance to have good ammo which
is accurate and does not lead, right off the bat. Also, do not think that you need a
super hard alloy or water dropping to harden them for 9mm. Air cooled wheel
weights will be just fine. In fact, too hard and too small are the root cause of most
9mm problems with boolits.

Bill

[theperfessor]

A very clear and sensible way to get started loading a 9. Good job. Ought to be a sticky.

[bhn22]

Seconded. Can some kindly, esteemed Moderator please do this? This is actually a good guideline for any caliber.

[btroj]

Very well stated and worded. This is the way every new autoloader should be looked at.

[buyobuyo]

Nice write up. I just got my 9mm problems solved actually. Mine was a powder issue.

I was trying to use AA#7 like I do with my jacketed loads. I was getting the velocity that I wanted and no barrel leading (even with 8 bhn boolits). My problem was a build up of lead at the end of the chamber that caused the following rounds to not chamber fully and the gun wouldn't go into battery. I switched to Unique and the build up went away, but I had barrel leading which requires that I water drop or heat treat my boolits with my current alloy.

[MtGun44]

Thanks, guys.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Yessir--sticky this one!

[crabo]

Thanks for doing this. I am about to start loading for my 9mm AR and have not been looking forward to it. I have been planning on using the Lee 125 rnfp that I use in my 38s/357s/ and 38 Super. I think it should be a good small game boolit.

I also have RanchDog 9mm tumble lube boolit and that is what I am hoping will work well with 45/45/10. It would be easy to cast and prep a bunch of them in a hurry.

[MtGun44]

You're welcome, hoped to make it easier for someone that is just getting ready to use
boolits in a new gun, and as said by others, the basic concepts apply to semiautos in general.

Get your fit right and you will be well ahead. It seems like we have reports of 45/45/10 doing
better than straight Alox (aka Mule Snot), so good luck with the TL. My experience with TL
is limited and unhappy, and no experience with 45/45/10. Ranch Dog's molds have
a good reputation.

Bill

[andy6382002]

Had the same problem with my beretta 92fs when starting to cast ...barrel leading and tumbleing bullets. fixed the problem by droping the charge and quenching the boolit. I use alox. It only took me 8 weeks to sort the problem, droppinng loads at a tenth of a grain at a time and testing. But have it running great now. 2.8 gr of ADI. AP-50-N, quenched and aloxed boollit. Crono's at just over 900 fps. Will gradually buile the load up to achieve around 100 - 1050 fps.
Would be happy to answer any questions.
a27south@bigpond.com

[peter9091]

Thanks guys done a very good job .....

[vogironface]

Thanks for the post. I have been struggling with my 9mm like many others. This approach may just be the ticket. I am confused on one point though. If have read this correctly you are measuring the inside of the 9mm brass after being shot in the gun. You are also slugging the barrel. Slugging the barrel I understand, but the brass I do not see the significance of. Measuring the inner diameter of the brass would tell me how much room there is within the brass after expansion. It does not, however, tell me anything about the barrel diameter, only the chamber. In short, there is a relationship between these two dimensions that is escaping me. Could someone please explain this.

[RobS]

The correlation is that some chambers will not take a larger diameter cast boolit i.e. a .356 diameter boolit leads the barrel a bit due to being too small and a person may want to try a .358 but the chamber won't allow for it (too tight to chamber for a handload round with a .358 boolit). The fired brass may provide the detail as to the chamber dimensions and a .357 boolit could possibly be the best option considering the chamber. However if a chamber would allow for a .358 boolit diameter then such diameter may be best for barrel leading/accuracy.

My advise is to shoot as large as diameter as will chamber reliably with .358 on the upper side and .357 if the chamber won't allow for a .358 boolit.

[vogironface]

RobS.

Thank you so much for the reply. This makes perfect sense with your explanation. I was over thinking it. If the inner diameter of the brass is at least the outer diameter of the bullet then it should chamber. I am very excited to try these .358 in my 9mm now. hopeful my long battle with leading will be over and the lead will be vanquished to the berm where it belongs. Thanks again to the contributors of this thread..

[afish4570]

The correlation is that some chambers will not take a larger diameter cast boolit i.e. a .356 diameter boolit leads the barrel a bit due to being too small and a person may want to try a .358 but the chamber won't allow for it (too tight to chamber for a handload round with a .358 boolit). The fired brass may provide the detail as to the chamber dimensions and a .357 boolit could possibly be the best option considering the chamber. However if a chamber would allow for a .358 boolit diameter then such diameter may be best for barrel leading/accuracy.

My advise is to shoot as large as diameter as will chamber reliably with .358 on the upper side and .357 if the chamber won't allow for a .358 boolit.

Recently tried something that at first was questionable in logic but worked......Using some Lee 356 TC bullets lubed with Lars 2500. As a **** shoot I loaded a dz. 38 special cases with the undersized 356 TC bullet sized to 356 dia. with 4 gr of Bullseye. To my surprise there was no leading despite being undersized after being shot in my K framed 4" S & W. Have since run several 100 thru my 358 dia in my Lyman Lube Sizer using 2500 Lars and have little to no leading. Using an occasional swatch of copper chore (make sure its copper) girl after shooting an IDPA match. The only thing I can figure is that the bullet upsets to fit the bore successfully upon firing. The powder charge has been bumped up to 4.6 gr BE still below the max. load recommended in my old Lyman Cast Bullet book. Load has not been chronographed yet. Merry Christmas. afish4570

[S. Galbraith]

Great read. Just for referrence, I slugged my Sig P228 barrel twice, and it consistently gave me a diameter of .355". The NATO standard? I guess I'll be using a .356" for this one.

[NMLRA Guy]

I never loaded the 9mm round but a friend did. i think with a 115 grain Lyman bullet and six grains of Unique. Don't think he ever cured his leading problem. I suspect too hot a load. He was always one for hot loads.

[S. Galbraith]

I haven't had any problems with leading or tumbling with bullets sized at .356". I used air cooled wheel weights and some Lyman #2.

[jonp]

Well done! my only question is that the 25ACP jammed on the end of the rod did you leave a spent primer in it for a totally flat face or did you take it out?

[MtGun44]

jpnp - Left the primer in.

Galbraith - congratulations, you are one of about 5-10% that succeeds with .356. You would also
probably succeed with .357 or .358.

NMLRA guy - Possible that the loads were too hot, but I'll bet dollars against doughnuts that he was using too small diam.

Bill

[dudits]

wheni had my problems with 9mm it was cause of to small diam boolit.

[taco650]

Can a Glock barrel be slugged and accurately read?

[Springfield0612]

Thanks! You provided a lot of clarity!

[MtGun44]

Don't know a thing about Glocks except they don't suit me in several ways, so I'll
never own one.

Bill

[9-toes]

Always heard they don't recommend cast in a Glock barrel because of the rifling.

[Arkansas Paul]

Very informative.
I paid down on a Ruger LC9 that's supposed to come in this month (Fingers crossed). This will definitely help out when I get started.
Thanks.

[popper]

Most don't have pin gauges so would an OD and thickness measurement work?

[MtGun44]

HMMM? Measure OD of the slug, yes. Not sure of the "thickness" application in this situation. Please
clarify.

As to measuring the inside of a fired case, this can be checked out by trying to put a known
dimension boolit/bullet into the case. It actually isn't a hard and fast thing because the brass
is springy and will pop back smaller than it was as it was held against the chamber by the
internal pressure during firing. So my brass only measured about .356, but it worked fine with
.358 boolits - in the sense that pressures were normal in a bunch of guns.

I do have a KelTec PF9 that is NOT happy with .358 loads - shows significant pressure signs,
and it is likely due to a very tight chamber. It all WORKS, but primers show excessive
pressure on otherwise normal loads that are not showing any signs of pressure in at least
5 other brands of 9mms. I don't actually practice with that one all that much, so I use
white box Win ball for practice, easier than making up a special load for that pistol alone.

Bill

[BAGTIC]

No need to size unless the as cast bullet is too large to chamber.

Seat an as cast bullet in a dummy round. Check to see if it will chamber in your gun. If it does tumble lube the rest of your bullets with JPW. After drying JPW will not be sticky and will not need Motor Mica or anything else to eliminate tackiness. Work up load using published load data. Enjoy.

[KAS]

I've been lurking here for about a year and have been loading 45 ACP for about two. I'm now in the process of developing a cast 9mm load for my Glock 17 with stock barrel (I know, I know). I was hoping for a lower pressure round with a heavy bullet to make IPSC minor power factor.

After reading the stickies on cast lead in 9mm, I bought a Lee 358-150-1R double cavity mold, a 38S&W spud for my Lee expander die, and slugged my barrel (.3555).

After casting a couple of boolits (air cooled and water quenched wheel weights, dropped at .359) and loading some unsized dummy rounds, I've run into problems.

Basically, the fat 1R ogive contacts the rifling all the way down to 1.045 OAL! Normally this wouldn't bother me as I'm not married to my reloading manuals, but this is a long blunt boolit.

Bullet length .640 + case length .750 = 1.390
1.390 - 1.045 (should really be 1.030) = .345

That's a lot of boolit in a small case. I was planning on loading this round with Titegroup, maybe not with so little case capacity left. Even with a 2.5 grain charge, I'm still only about .080 away from a compressed load with very fast powder.

Seating at this depth still swages the base of the boolit down to .350 for air cooled and .3555 for water quenched. The rest of the bands measure .357 after being pulled (crimped to .379 OD). I'm still willing to try the water quenched boolit as it is, just not too sure about the powder or case capacity.

My searches of the forum did turn up a few people who use this boolit for 9mm, yet none list their OAL. Others are loading very short round in the 1.100 to 1.070 range, but always with much lighter/shorter boolits and still not anywhere near 1.045 OAL.

Has anyone else had success with this boolit? What about the 358-140-TC? It looks bottom heavy too.

Can I safely continue down this road? Should I cut my losses and get a different mold? Slower powder?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Just trying to avoid a KB here.

[1_Ogre]

Great job Bill. Easy to follow steps, and it's what I use for all my autos and even the wheel guns as to the slugging and espically the TC for the test cartridge. If I had to critique this, TC = Taper Crimp, LOA = Length Over All, minor but excellent article. Just take your time, and be patient, none of us ever get it right the first time. Good Job

[Lizard333]

Always heard they don't recommend cast in a Glock barrel because of the rifling.

Do some reading here. I've fired thousands of cast boolits in Glocks. Might be a problem with a commercial cast but not with your own cast boolits. You can control size, hardness, and lube. Your stuck with what you get with commercially made boolits.

[taco650]

I've been lurking here for about a year and have been loading 45 ACP for about two. I'm now in the process of developing a cast 9mm load for my Glock 17 with stock barrel (I know, I know). I was hoping for a lower pressure round with a heavy bullet to make IPSC minor power factor.

After reading the stickies on cast lead in 9mm, I bought a Lee 358-150-1R double cavity mold, a 38S&W spud for my Lee expander die, and slugged my barrel (.3555).

After casting a couple of boolits (air cooled and water quenched wheel weights, dropped at .359) and loading some unsized dummy rounds, I've run into problems.

Basically, the fat 1R ogive contacts the rifling all the way down to 1.045 OAL! Normally this wouldn't bother me as I'm not married to my reloading manuals, but this is a long blunt boolit.

Bullet length .640 + case length .750 = 1.390
1.390 - 1.045 (should really be 1.030) = .345

That's a lot of boolit in a small case. I was planning on loading this round with Titegroup, maybe not with so little case capacity left. Even with a 2.5 grain charge, I'm still only about .080 away from a compressed load with very fast powder.

Seating at this depth still swages the base of the boolit down to .350 for air cooled and .3555 for water quenched. The rest of the bands measure .357 after being pulled (crimped to .379 OD). I'm still willing to try the water quenched boolit as it is, just not too sure about the powder or case capacity.

My searches of the forum did turn up a few people who use this boolit for 9mm, yet none list their OAL. Others are loading very short round in the 1.100 to 1.070 range, but always with much lighter/shorter boolits and still not anywhere near 1.045 OAL.

Has anyone else had success with this boolit? What about the 358-140-TC? It looks bottom heavy too.

Can I safely continue down this road? Should I cut my losses and get a different mold? Slower powder?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Just trying to avoid a KB here.

Have you tried sizing them to 356 or 357 before loading?

[KAS]

Have you tried sizing them to 356 or 357 before loading?

Yes, I have. I didn't gain anything in terms of seating depth, so I still don't have enough case capacity and the the base of the boolit is swaged down to .350.

Time to call it a failed experiment and get another mold. Now if only I could find a Lee 356-120-TC 6 banger in stock somewhere...

[Michael J. Spangler]

KAS I notice that your boolits were sizing down less when water dropped.

Do the rest of you find this true also? I have an issue with my boolits sizing down and my mold being possibly a tiny bit small too.
I was planning on using a 38 powder funnel from dillon to help with the squeeze issue.
I guess I'll load some of the water dropped to see if they swage down as bad.

[felix]

Yes, depending on the strength (toughness) of the alloy. Rule: More toughness, more rebound. In HOME practice, there is NO correlation between hardness and toughness. ... felix

[MtGun44]

KAS,
Your problem with throat clearance on the round nosed boolits is why I don't recommend them. You will find the 356-120-TC to be more user friendly. Water quenched is
probably not necessary and may be harmful. I have never observed boolit squeeze
down with AC wwts even with a .3535 expander which is quite small. I do not
doubt that some are getting it, but I wonder if weird brass isn't as much to blame as
the expander size.

Bill

[Michael J. Spangler]

Beagled the mold
Water dropped
4 coats of 45-45-10 (may be a little too much)
No leading and good accuracy in the 2 test firearms today.

Works for me

[taco650]

Beagled the mold
Water dropped
4 coats of 45-45-10 (may be a little too much)
No leading and good accuracy in the 2 test firearms today.





Works for me

What do you mean by "Beagled"?

[H.Callahan]

What do you mean by "Beagled"?
Beagling (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?117331-Mould-Enlargement-%93beagling%94)

[popper]

Bill - I think you are right on not recommending LRN for 9. I had seating depth trouble with MBC in an XD. I personally like the TC but is SWC really 'better' for tight chambers & normal bbl? I don't think the Glocks have a tapered chamber but the XD line sure does (~ 0.010", base to mouth). I think I'm like KAS, going to let the case swage the base down leave the larger nose to fit the bore. Fortunately the Xtreme LRN I have give a nice 0.01 step on the front band, for chambering tests.

[Lensbenz]

I recently tried a 356-120-TC for use is my 92f. Slugged the barrel came up .357 exactly. That 120 TC came up exactly .358 with Wheel weights and some added tin. (Makes em pretty).No sizing required. Water dropped for hardness, or air dropped both came up .358. Shot them at 4.0 gn Bullseye and was quite stout due to seating for lube groove at 1.090. Chrono at 1145 avg. I tried one 4.3 grn and the case shot off for the moon. Finished off 50 4.0 gn and ran a few jacketed to clean it up. When cleaning ground zero lead. Since then I backed it off to 3.8 gn and all is good and accurate.
I knew things were gonna go my way when I returned a 50 dollar bill that was given to me instead of the 20 I was owed.

[MtGun44]

Good job on the B92F. Sounds like you took my shortcut to 9mms without much pain.
A lot of folks insist on taking the "educational route". . . . . . .

Bill

[cpaspr]

Pardon my ignorance. I've read about slugging a barrel many times in the past, but have never done it till now. But - I'm not sure which numbers are important.

I have a new Ruger SR9c. Only 27 rounds through it, so far. All jacketed.

I drove a lubed .358 SWC bullet from chamber to muzzle. The barrel has six lands and six grooves. If I'm mic'ing it correctly, the diameters are .3485" where the lands cut in and .3570" where the bullet conformed to the grooves. Is that a correct interpretation?

So, what size mould do I need to be using once I start casting for 9mm? Or rather, what should I be sizing my bullets to for this gun?

[62chevy]

Pardon my ignorance. I've read about slugging a barrel many times in the past, but have never done it till now. But - I'm not sure which numbers are important.

I have a new Ruger SR9c. Only 27 rounds through it, so far. All jacketed.

I drove a lubed .358 SWC bullet from chamber to muzzle. The barrel has six lands and six grooves. If I'm mic'ing it correctly, the diameters are .3485" where the lands cut in and .3570" where the bullet conformed to the grooves. Is that a correct interpretation?

So, what size mould do I need to be using once I start casting for 9mm? Or rather, what should I be sizing my bullets to for this gun?

Yes you have the idea and you will need a boolit that is .358 or slightly bigger.

[cpaspr]

Yes you have the idea and you will need a boolit that is .358 or slightly bigger.

I think I may have a problem with being able to shoot lead bullets. I loaded a .358" unsized 9mm bullet into a case. It won't go all the way into the chamber. I'll double check that I have enough taper crimp on it, but my chamber may be under- to normal-sized while the barrel is a bit over sized.

[62chevy]

I think I may have a problem with being able to shoot lead bullets. I loaded a .358" unsized 9mm bullet into a case. It won't go all the way into the chamber. I'll double check that I have enough taper crimp on it, but my chamber may be under- to normal-sized while the barrel is a bit over sized.

Try one at 357 and see if that works. That would be the smallest you want to go.

[cpaspr]

Oops. When loading the .358" bullet into the case I forgot to set the crimp. Once I put a proper taper crimp on it the dummy cartridge fit the chamber just fine.

Yay!

I'm going to load up a few and see how they shoot. May be a week or so, but I'll report back. The SR9c may not be relegated to jacketed only after all.

[Lead]

.356 lee mould works great in my hi point carbine better than factory ammo. But will do this process for my pistols

[mallen]

5. Pull the boolit from the dummy round and make sure you have not sized it down
during the seating process.


i think is my issue

[62chevy]

i think is my issue

117891

This might help.

[mallen]

i pulled it out with pliers. not as scientific as a bullet puller

[taco650]

I bought a kinetic bullet puller years ago and must say it's a life saver in reloading. Allows you to "fix" rounds that didn't get powder, bullets set too deep, put expanding slugs on top of military issue [nobody else does that right??? ;-)], etc.

[mallen]

Die bullet pullers look cheaper.

do they work better or easier?

[62chevy]

Die bullet pullers look cheaper.

do they work better or easier?

Frankfort Arsenal impact bullet puller is 14.99 at midway. RCBS Collet Bullet Puller is 18.79 on sale and you need a 12.00 collet of the correct size for each caliber.

[taco650]

Die bullet pullers look cheaper.

do they work better or easier?

They make less mess but cost much more in the long run. Inertia style pullers also give you a chance to pound out some stress LOL! Like 62chevy, I also got mine at Midway years ago and it's still going strong. If you're careful in your reloading practices you don't have much need for one but it's a nice insurance policy in case you're not sure you powder in the case or you seat the bullet to deep.

[mallen]

sounds like a die puller is easier

[62chevy]

sounds like a die puller is easier

It's a personal choice but the Kinetic puller does help release stress.

[rsrocket1]

Here is a comparison of the Lee expansion plugs. The stock 9mm Lee plug is on the right. You can see that it is too short for the Lee TL356-124-2R and 356-120-TC boolits. The expansion plug is really not deep enough to allow a lead bullet to be seated without getting squeezed really hard by the brass. For jacketed and plated bullets, this is not a problem, the expander opens up the case mouth to start the bullet straight. The Lee 9mm plug is only 0.175" deep and 0.355" wide.
The 38 S&W expander is 0.291" deep and tapers from 0.355" to 0.364 at the top.

If you load for 38/357 and you want to try expanding the 9mm case for cast bullets, the 38/357 expander has the same plug dimensions but as you can see, the plug body is too short to extend low enough to reach a 9mm case. You will need a dowel or extension tube to make up the difference.

The 38 S&W plugs are available from Titan Reloading (one of the sponsors of this site) and the part can be found here for $3 (http://www.titanreloading.com/service-parts/reloading-die-parts/lee-se1699-pm-exp-plug-38-sw).

136605

Here are some sample loaded dummy bullets at different seating depths used for feed tests.

136606

You can see the expansion bulge from the bullets in the case. When the bullets were pulled, they still measured 0.356", the same size they were before seating.

The loaded bullets shoot good enough in my M&P Fullsize and Shield so long as I do my part. I'm still guilty of jerking the trigger every once in a while, but that's why I reload and cast, so I can practice to get better.
136608

[mallen]

good info, thanks. although what press is this for? the dillon square deal b uses a "pour through die". powder goes through the expansion die.

[pappy4]

No help on that from me mallen I use a RL550b Dillon with the powder through expansion die.

[popper]

I got tired of pulling 9mm that didn't pass the plunk test so I now do the plunk test on sized/expanded BUT not belled brass. 20% culls that go to the recycler if ANY resistance or wrong HS. No pulling boolits & punching out good primers anymore. Time well spent.

[atacamadan]

Hi Guys. I am somewhat new to the forum and this is my first post. I have read all the posts in this forum about the 9mm keyholing problem. My case is the following:
I and two other shooters use CZ 75 SP-01 Shadows for IPSC shooting. When I reload with copper plated bullets from Argentina (I live in Paraguay) which measure .355-.3555 I have no problem with keyholing. These are round nose flat base bullets. I have been casting with a Lyman 147gn 4 bullet mold with wheel weight and Linotype mix that gives me a hardness of about 14Bnh (use the Lee hardness tester). I resize with a Lee .356 die that leaves the diameter at .355-.3555 and a good amount go sideways in the targets (somewhere between 2 and 4 per every 10 rounds). I have tried sticking with the cast bullets and coating with Alox, and also painting with an epoxy and Boron Nitride mix. I still get the keyholing problem.
Lyman says the mold is great for IPSC shooting and has good accuracy. I contacted Lyman and they had no good suggestions for resolving this problem except that maybw velocity is too low so bump up the charge.
I have varied powder to give 800fps up to 950fps and same problem, so it seems to not be a velocity issue.
I will try NOT resizing and just going with the molded bullets next time around.
I have not run a lead plug yet through my barrel.
We went to a competition last saturday in Argentina and used factory match ammo and no problems. I pulled the copper jacketed bullet from this ammo and it measures .3535-3.54!
Getting to my point--
I have a keyholing problem with cast bullets using the Lyman 147gn mold. Varying powder amount makes no difference. I tried different poweder as well, W231, Unique. When I use plated bullets of a similar diameter to the molded lead bullets no problem. When I shot the factory ammo last weekend with a slightly smaller diameter jacketed bullet no problem.
Any suggestions? This is driving me nuts and I can't use these bullets for competitions until I get this solved.
Thanks,
Dan

[atacamadan]

Sorry. This is my Second post....

[62chevy]

snip ... Said he has key holing problems with lead bullets but not jacketed bullets.

Keep in mind lead and jacketed bullets are two different animals. Also keep in mind with lead bullets Fit is King and hardness matters when it matters. I suggest you slug your barrel with a soft lead ball at least twice to find groove diameter then make your bullets .001 to .001 over grove size. You didn't say but are you getting any leading if so where in the barrel.

[atacamadan]

Thanks for the quick reply 62Chevy! I will slug my barrel as you suggested. I am not getting any leading in the barrel. I water quench as well. Do you think the hardness of ~14BNH is ok?

[atacamadan]

The first time I tried the epoxy coating it worked fine. No keyholing. I tumbled the bullets in a tub 3 times, letting them dry each time then cooking at 100C for 20-30min in between coats. Sounded like a good idea and the europeans have been keen on this. My next brainstorm was to spraypaint and I don't think the coat was very even. This was the start of the keyholing. So I went with just lead and lube and keyholing continued. Next batch I will do two things:
1. Not resize
2. Tumble paint 3 times. This should leave a thicker diameter to give a tighter fit. The first time I epoxy coated I had no leading whatsoever.

[RobS]

atacamadan,

Load a dummy round and then pull it to measure the very edge of the base of the boolit. This will let you determine if the boolit is sizing down or swaging during the seating/crimping stages. Your boolit should be the same diameter as it started out once it is pulled from the case. I also suggest due to the nature of the 9mm case to size as large as your chamber will let you and many find success with .357 to .358 boolits should they chamber reliably. 14 BHN can work fine if the boolit comes out of the case after reloading .001 to .002 over bore groove diameter.

[BoltLover01]

Your lead bullets need to be sized about. 002 larger than what your barrel slugs. I went through this whole ordeal and that's what solved my problem. My barrel slugs at. 3553 so i now use a lee. 357 mold and after sizing through my Lee sizing die end up with 3.84 and these shoot great, no matter if i load hot or use a starting load.

[ncbearman]

ata sounds like you've eliminated all but sizing. Keep your charge at midrange not hot and size .002 over your slugged groove size. I bet once you get the right size for your barrel you'll be good. Keep us posted.

[atacamadan]

Update-I slugged my barrel this morning and it ranges from.3535 to .3545. One measurement was .355 but in general the .3535-.3545 seems to be the best average. I checked some of the unresized bullets and they average about .357-.358. My Lee resizing die runs the back to .355. So I guess the problem is pretty obvious as you guys have mentioned, my resized lead bullets are too small for the barrel.
I'll make up some more and go without resizing and see if this solves the problem until I can get a larger resizing die of .357 or .358. I'll also try painting on resized bullets and on non resized bullets. The epoxy coat is pretty hard after cooking in the oven.

[atacamadan]

Confusing post... sorry about that. I guess what I need to consider is that I got a .355 measurement and the other ones were smaller, therefore I need to go with the largest size of .355, go .002 over the .355 size which would be .357.

[BoltLover01]

Let us know! ☺

[62chevy]

Confusing post... sorry about that. I guess what I need to consider is that I got a .355 measurement and the other ones were smaller, therefore I need to go with the largest size of .355, go .002 over the .355 size which would be .357.

I think you are on the right track.

[RobS]

Just hone out your current push through die.

I use a homemade metal split rod about 75% diameter of the die and wrap varying grit (220 if I want to remove a lot to 300 then 400 grit) wet/dry sand paper cut into appropriate width strips to fit the split part of the rod. I then wrap around the split rod until a snug fit is obtained into the sizing die and apply a little oil. I chuck this into my cordless drill and go slowly at it. Others have used a wooden dowel as well.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?134533-Honing-lapping-Lee-Sizing-die

[larrupin]

Mtgun44- just wanted to say thanks for the good information and insight you brought together in one spot for 9mm. Getting it figured out thanks to you!

Thanks,
larrupin

[atacamadan]

Hi Guys. Been busy and haven't gotten back to checking on this until now. I did a run of lead bullets (about 14Bnh--mix of linotype and wheel weights) with a Magma Research Bullet Master Mark 5. I installed Magma's 147gn molds for 9mm and used that instead of the Lyman mold I was using previously. These bullets came out beautifully! No wrinkles or blemishes that I would sometimes get with the Lyman (likely due to variations in temperature...?).
I epoxy painted with just a light coat 2 times, cooking the coatings each time for 30min at 100Celsius, and made sure there were no paint globs or excess with each coating.
Resizing was with Magma Research .358 die for the LubeMaster. When I measure the final diameter it is more like .357 than .358. Previously I was using a Lee .356 sizing die when I got the keyholing effect.
Yesterday was our club comp and I had no keyholing at all. I have yet to check the accuracy. That will be next weekend.
Very much appreciate the great information here. Summing up: slug the barrel to determine diameter, resize to .001-.002 over that as suggested.

[cityofthesouth]

First post, hopefully it is cool to put it here because I've tried just about everything.

I'd go through the whole long story but the important part seems to be that I am using lee tumble lube 125gr bullets and straight air cooled wheel weights. I have down loaded with Titegroup to 3.2grs and it seems like I am seeing keyholing in my rear view. But it still happens on occasion. Recently I started coating with Hi-Tek. Nothing changed. Still see the occasional keyhole.

I've read until my eyes are bleeding and in the name of science - believing that bullet diameter is really the culprit as suggested here and by many others - I seated 3 bullets in empty cases. Two were straight out of the mold, untouched, measuring as big as .359. The third was sized .356 coated with Hi-Tek. The Hi-Tek bullet was pulled from the case and measured .355. The other two came out of the case measuring as small as .353! One case was flared as per the Lee instructions - the die just touched the shell holder. The second I screwed it in further for much more flare to really accept the .359 boolit. No difference - both came out of the case way too small.

So the question I don't see addressed is, how do I stop this? Will a .357 carbide case sizing die work with 9mm brass? If so, would it actually be a solution? With the combination of my bullets dropping at .359 and a different bullet sizing die post Hi-Tek, I feel like it would be no problem for me to get properly oversized bullets PRIOR to seating them in a case. After they are seated, I believe, is where they become too small.

[toallmy]

I believe that you are over crimping them when you seat your boollits , you want to measure your finished round across the crimp like .357 + the thickness of your brass on both sides , probably around .379 . You must make sure that the boollits can not be pushed back into the case , Test by pushing it against something with your thumb or the pressure will spike . Did you read the part about using a 38 Smith and Wesson powder through die expander instead of the 9 mm expander insert not a 38 special . That will expand the brass for your chubby boolits so you don't mash them down when seating . But I am not familiar with the tumble lube bullets

[cityofthesouth]

I believe that you are over crimping them when you seat your boollits , you want to measure your finished round across the crimp like .357 + the thickness of your brass on both sides , probably around .379 . You must make sure that the boollits can not be pushed back into the case , Test by pushing it against something with your thumb or the pressure will spike . Did you read the part about using a 38 Smith and Wesson powder through die expander instead of the 9 mm expander insert not a 38 special . That will expand the brass for your chubby boolits so you don't mash them down when seating . But I am not familiar with the tumble lube bullets

Ah ok. Yes I did read it but I didn't follow exactly (I think I read it in another thread and it's all run together at this point). By the time I came to this thread, linked from another, I was just looking for a current thread so I didn't dig up one of the thousand old ones I've been reading. Anyway, it can be put inside the 9mm die to replace the one it came with? Or am I misunderstanding?

I guess I should add that I am not using the factory crimp die at all. I have, it just didn't make any difference and I have since abandoned it. Cartridges feed and cycle fine in 5 different guns so far.

[toallmy]

Yes it will fit in your lee 9mm die , and expand the brass a little deeper , then when you seat the bullet be careful to not smash it down to much .

[cityofthesouth]

Yes it will fit in your lee 9mm die , and expand the brass a little deeper , then when you seat the bullet be careful to not smash it down to much .

Sounds like the ticket item - placing my order! I replied to your PM and I will update this thread when I send rounds down range with the new set up.

[aap2]

The above replies are spot on, if your correctly sized boolit gets swaged down during seating or crimping you can get keyholes. I had great accuracy with most loads but still got the occasional keyhole despite everything that I tried. My problem was the mixed brass that I scrounge; some of the import 9mm brass has a wall thickness so great that seating a normal diameter boolit (.3575 for me) results in a loaded round that is too fat to chamber unless run thru a taper crimp that swaged it undersize and then they keyhole. My test was to load a bunch with Win brass which is known to be thin walled and I fired hundreds loaded on the same dies with no keyholes. I now sort the "thick" brass out and give it to a friend who loads jacketed bullets. Depending on your gun's chamber and bore you may find that some 9mm brass is just too thick for boolits. Just my opinion but it worked for me . Good luck.

[cityofthesouth]

I got the 38 S&W plug but have only had time to load 10 to test. Bullets were coated with Hi-Tek.

-I loaded 3.5gr of Tightgroup which would have given me keyholes and poor accuracy before.
-With the new plug they didn't exactly pass the plunk test. They were a bit snug is all. They fed fine but I had 3 or 4 out of the 10 that didn't extract well. Just a kiss from the factory crimp die was enough to get them to drop right into the barrel under their own weight so I am confident that will solve the extraction issues.
-Bullets were sized through the regular Lee .356 die.
-I pulled one bullet after seating it and it came out .356.
-Happily, accuracy was excellent.
-Problem solved as near as I can tell.

Big thanks to all of you guys. When I have shot some more I'll post again. The only thing I can see is a little junk in the barrel - not sure if it is coating or what. I may try a larger bullet sizing die at some point but meh, I'm good with what I'm seeing.

For someone else like me who ends up here via google, the Lee tumble lube 9mm bullets paired with the regular Lee 9mm dies just plain ole doesn't work. The 38 S&W plug that is suggested in this thread opens the case up just a touch more and a bit deeper so that the bullet itself isn't sized down when seated.

[toallmy]

Another happy camper .

[cityofthesouth]

Next experiment is to seat some unsized bullets and pull them to see if they are being sized to a desirable figure (.357 maybe) during seating. If that works out, sizing will be a thing of the past. I'll trade the sizing step for the factory crimp step. If I'm lucky, I'll get that extra thou or two and go back down to 3.2gr of Tightgroup (or whatever feeds and engages slide lock) because let me tell you, that is one EASY shooting 9mm load. I primarily shoot them through a full size 9mm 1911. Add in the low charge = very fun to shoot. If the stars align, I think I have access to a chrono coming up as well which may be interesting for some readers.


I'd also note; I have been working with a friend and so these problems have been consistent across 5 different guns, 3 to 6 inch barrels (different twist rates too), two or three different powders, different people doing the loading on different machines using different dies. Eventually, I will try to get these rounds run through all these different guns and have some useful data to share.

[hometownhero]

New member and new caster here. Just waiting for purolator to find my mould I ordered as they seem to have lost it.
This is exactly what I needed to read. I think this forum will be a big help and most likely cost me a bunch of money.

[toallmy]

Welcome Hometownhero a lot of very knowledgeable members here with years of experience willing to help . Take advantage of the archives with a Google search will answer most questions , but do jump in with questions .

[308Jeff]

New member, and this is my first post here. Wanted to say this is one of the most informative and well discussed topics that I've read regarding reloading ANYWHERE. Thanks to the OP for the original posting, and to everyone else that has contributed to it. I'm looking forward to my venture into bullet casting.

[cityofthesouth]

Last post was April of '16 and I wanted to circle back around (been meaning to for awhile) to share my results. I have now cast, coated, and loaded nearly 5,000 rounds. Still shooting them in a variety of guns with great success. Between then and now I purchased a 9mm AR and moved from the tumble lube bullets to the 125gr Lee mold with just a single lube groove (90457 / 356 125 2R). Long story shortish, the new rounds with the new bullets are TIGHT in the 9mmAR.

Massive edit. Bottom line, 1.120 OAL was too long in my 9mm AR. I seated the bullets to 1.100, works perfectly. The tumble lube bullets have a smaller diameter nose than the 2R bullets and therefore do not touch the rifling when chambered - makes perfect sense now.

3.6 grains of Titegroup so I'm not expecting a pressure issue. Problem solved.

3.6 grains of Titegroup, the 90457 bullet at 1.120 COL (now going with 1.100 for the AR9) with Hi Tek coating sized to .356 using all Lee dies and the 38 S&W expander plug. Not using the FCD at all, though I have found if I get the occasional cartridge that won't plunk into my 1911 barrel, I can use the FCD with the crimper backed all the way out, and fix them. Getting close to 5,000 rounds and having great success, with excellent accuracy from several different guns.


Update 6_27_2017:
So I recently got a CZ P09 and much like my AR9, the barrel throat is relatively shallow - shallower still. My chubby 90457 bullets are actually proving to be a little annoying and I experienced sticky rounds in the chamber (2 or 3 per mag). And in the mean time since this last post, I switched to a .358 sizing die. Accuracy is vastly improved over .356 bullets (w/ 38 S&W expander plug of course) and I actually continued using the same OAL and powder charge as .356 bullets. This load through a smith-fit Apex barrel in a 5" M&P would shoot 2 inch groups off a bag at 20 yards. Enter the P09 and now I am experimenting with an OAL of 1.06+/- and a powder charge of 3.4gr TiteGroup. This was like, two days ago and a total of 25 rounds is all. Looks like the groups are good out of my 9mm 1911. CZ slide is off being milled for a red dot so I can't experiment further until it's back. I am finding this particular bullet to be more annoying than anything else. So for sure I am going to cast some lube groove bullets and see what kind of accuracy I can achieve with those at .358. The nose of that bullet is way smaller so it'll fit in anything, and my hypothesis is that accuracy will be fine. Only issue I have noticed with .358 bullets is that the case mouth measures .381 or .382. However, I haven't found that to actually cause any issues. Cartridges still pas plunk test as long as OAL is compatible with the particular firearm in question.

Update 7/19/2017:
P09 is back. It likes my 356 bullets just fine. No sticking, good accuracy - amazing what a couple thousandths can mean - but at least I don't have to mess around with super short OALs to get the 358s to actually function in it. My AR9 is also perfectly happy with my 356 bullets. I managed to get a couple 200 yard hits on steel in a local 3-gun match with it in PCC division (with a non magnified red dot). I am going to revisit my 1911 with the 356 bullets vs 358 because it seemed to prefer the larger ones like my friend's Apex M&P barrel did. I had good luck in 2 different 3-gun matches with my 1911 running the 358s and it isn't picky at all about OAL. I may have just been having a better day but I was able to hit the annoyingly small steel they seem to have a fetish with at this club as well as a Texas star that was farther away than I would have liked. My Canik TP9 is going back to Century because it shoots way too far left for me to mess with anymore. When that comes back I'll do some head to head with the 356 and 358s.

[cityofthesouth]

So this post isn't as lame, have some pics. The Lee bullets I'm using now with black Hi-Tek and the blaster that ingests a lot of them.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/699/32029425474_7b2c68620e_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QNkbiG)hitek_coating2 (https://flic.kr/p/QNkbiG) by city_ofthe_south (https://www.flickr.com/photos/101646264@N03/), on Flickr

https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3740/32748715701_b94a2d8d1d_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/RTTJek)hitek_coating1 (https://flic.kr/p/RTTJek) by city_ofthe_south (https://www.flickr.com/photos/101646264@N03/), on Flickr

[cityofthesouth]

Hey I brought you guys some pics you don't care about.

Went back to try the Lee lube groove bullets. Sized 358 my P09 does this mostly group well and then some crazy fliers thing. So then I went back to 356 and kinda the same thing happens except the fliers aren't as crazy. Two 10 shot groups here. The thing with 10 shots is, it takes a lot of shooting for me to make up my mind about something, but at the same time I get lazy and impatient about half way through. On top of that it is windy, 100 degrees and I'm using a little home made bean bag thing for a rest - PLUS I just don't have the patience to be a good bench rest shooter. These shots are all roughly 20 yards - I just stepped it off and I kinda think my steps are long.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4322/35919850651_9f7d94e469_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WJ7CaR)CZ_P09_LubeGrooveBullets (https://flic.kr/p/WJ7CaR) by city_ofthe_south (https://www.flickr.com/photos/101646264@N03/), on Flickr

These are the single groove bullets in the picture from my previous post. 356 and seated about 1.100 OAL +/-. So figure if I sucked a little less, this is pretty good accuracy. I can stand there off hand at 20 yards and make pretty quick hits on 8" steel all day. The furthest two holes are 2-3/4 inches. And these feed flawlessly even at 1.100 OAL.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4301/35664235990_6bd711ff10_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WkwwQw)CZ_P09_SingleGrooveBullets (https://flic.kr/p/WkwwQw) by city_ofthe_south (https://www.flickr.com/photos/101646264@N03/), on Flickr

These are the single groove bullets at 358 but seated at 1.050 to work in the CZ. Neither gun likes them and they still don't feed perfectly in the CZ. 1911 doesn't care.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4311/36053991865_cc92179567_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WVY8Fp)RIA1911_358SingleGrooveBullets (https://flic.kr/p/WVY8Fp) by city_ofthe_south (https://www.flickr.com/photos/101646264@N03/), on Flickr

And the 356 single grooves in the 1911. Not a whole lot better. It seems to prefer the 358s with a much longer OAL. I kinda wonder if the really short loads are a little too warm. No tumbling but not amazing.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4299/35664235690_6f1b8c505b_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WkwwKm)RIA1911_SingleGrooveBullets (https://flic.kr/p/WkwwKm) by city_ofthe_south (https://www.flickr.com/photos/101646264@N03/), on Flickr

That's it for now. Looks like I got a couple surprise days off so I'll do a little more testing in the next few days.

[cityofthesouth]

More pics. This time I set out to shoot a control group. CZ knows how to make an accurate gun I can say that much. I got some American Eagle 115gr FMJs that in my experience shoot well in general. That's a 3/4 inch group at 20 paces.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4313/35952083452_b0d20332d0.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WLXPRN)CZ_P09_AE115gr (https://flic.kr/p/WLXPRN) by city_ofthe_south (https://www.flickr.com/photos/101646264@N03/), on Flickr

I accidentally bought 2K CCI Small Pistol Magnum Primers so I went down a tenth just in case and for this particular set of strings I ran them through the Factory Crimp Die with the crimp backed completely out - just using the die to size the case. I wanted to know if it would have a negative impact on accuracy but it maybe possibly improved the accuracy somewhat. Additionally I had it in my head that perhaps with perfectly in spec cartridges I would avoid malfunctions on match day. However, the P09 feeds the 356 bullets perfectly and I don't think I'm going to bother. Today was much better weather, I was mostly comfortable for the shooting and so that may have had an impact. Even with that flier the group is 2-1/2 inches and the better group on the left is just under 1-1/2 inches. I did the same thing without the crimp die and the results were basically the same.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4305/35730330450_bf3d5cab1d.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Wrnhqb)CZ_P09_CCIMagnum1 (https://flic.kr/p/Wrnhqb) by city_ofthe_south (https://www.flickr.com/photos/101646264@N03/), on Flickr

Also recovered a bullet. Very impressed with the HiTek of course. The other pic is a little misleading but if I had to describe it I would say the coating stayed in tact everywhere except where the lands contacted the bullet.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4301/36080073036_ae12664eb0.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WYgNGL)Lee125gr_HiTek_recover (https://flic.kr/p/WYgNGL) by city_ofthe_south (https://www.flickr.com/photos/101646264@N03/), on Flickr

I shot groups of similar loads as the post above only using 3.5grs and I did see an improvement. Not sure if it was me, the weather, or the fact that I shot 2, 5-shot groups instead of 10 at once, or a combination of them all. I don't think I will be able to achieve the American Eagle results with my reloads (and these bullets), but at the same time, about the only reason I would even consider it is knowing that the P09 is capable. If I hadn't seen that, I would be totally excited about 1-1/2" groups at ~20 yards.

[Rick R]

cityofthesouth,

It looks like you are getting there. That P09 is a neat pistol and all the CZ products I've shot were more accurate than I am.

[cityofthesouth]

cityofthesouth,

It looks like you are getting there. That P09 is a neat pistol and all the CZ products I've shot were more accurate than I am.

Thanks Rick, I am feeling pretty good about it at this point and I am really happy I went with the P09. Monthly 3-gun match is this up coming weekend and the P09 is tagging in for the 1911 for its maiden voyage. I am looking forward to it ... even though I have to shoot in Open now. But you know, I wanted my red dot.

[AKholicBubba]

I'm happy this was a sticky. Well discussed. I actually learned a few things

[cityofthesouth]

Just wanted to put this somewhere, it's possible that it has been discussed in other threads but this thread talked about the Lee 38 S&W expander plug so it makes sense here I think. A friend of mine bought a Redding 9mm expander die that was apparently redesigned for the issue of the case swaging cast bullets. Item #96172 - one of the "premium" dies. I tried it for him to see if it worked. First issue was that it will put enough bell in the case that it won't go into a Lee seating die - so don't buy the Redding and expand 9 million cases, and then try to load them if you're using Lee stuff before you do some testing. However, I dialed the expander die back to the point where the flare wasn't an issue, seated my Lee 125gr cast bullet coated with Hi Tek sized .356, at 1.08 OAL then pulled the bullet. It was still .356 on the dot the entire length. I don't know how useful this information is, but if you need a Lee alternative, the Redding appears to work. How it works with .357 or .358 bullets, I dunno.

[P Flados]

Under what I feel are common circumstances, I feel that a standard 9mm expander plug (intended for bullets) is just wrong for boolits and can guarantee failure.

The 9mm has been my biggest challenge for finding boolit happiness.

Now that I am happy, I have posted responses a few times in a few thread. For this one, I went back grabbed some stuff and put it all together. First lets start out with something that combines a good measure of truth with some humor. The following was at post 10 of the link at the bottom.

Take your time and the following. Then do it. As corny and funny as it may sound, it is probably the best solution.

9 mm can be very frustrating. Do not let that put you off. The solution is simple. There 10 easy steps to the 9mm.


Step 1: Try what you have and what you think might work. Take notes. You might get lucky.

Step 2: If step 1 did not work, tell us exactly what you did.

Step 3: Sort through the 50 suggestions, pick one.

Step 4: Try it and hope you get lucky.

Step 5: If it did not work, tell us exactly what you did and what happened.

Step 6: Sort through the 40 suggestions. Pick a new suggestion.

Step 7: Try it and hope you get lucky.

Step 8: If it did not work, go back to step 5.

Step 9: After you get something that works, assume you are an expert and provide suggestions when some else shares their problems.

Step 10: After a bunch of newbies ignore your suggestions, come to understand that the 9mm is too finicky to ever be simple and work the same way for anybody else.



The above was from post 10. Later in post 37 I gave some more specific stuff that I did. The combination worked for me and may helped others figure out something that may want to try next.

Use a deep plug 0.358" expander
Use 0.359" PC coated boolits.
Use sorted brass, only Blazer, FC and CCI for me
I seat and I do flare removal as separate steps.

I can now use any powder I want and loads up to book max with great accuracy and no leading.


I have come to believe that much of the 9mm "just can't figure it out frustration" comes from having boolits sized down by the case more than you think and/or just not going with big enough boolits. I Also I am convinced that sorting headstamps is an easy thing to try early on when your are having problems. More details of my basis for these can be found in post 37 of

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?369567-I-m-losing-steam-trying-to-develop-accurate-cast-9mm/page3

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Chasing oversize groove diameter in your barrel is not always necessary. In several of my .357 guns I shoot boolits that are sized right at groove diameter without trouble. I use a soft alloy and a good conventional wax based lube with a medium load. I can get up to 1200 fps but mostly stay around 1000. I just got a 9mm 1911 that I have to sort out. It could use some throat work probably. The boolits that I want to use are the LEE 356 125r which are kind of fat ahead of the case mouth. Seating them deep enough to chamber reduces the case capacity a lot and raises pressure. I may try the truncated cone 124 style instead.