flex-hone for cylinders?

[glenkans]

Guys, I opened up the cyl. throats of an old mod. Ruger 357 with a dowel and 400 grit wet or dry paper so I could just push my .358 cast bullets through. Barrel measured .357 or . 3575. I found a dowel that just fit in cylinder and cut a slit across top of dowel down about 1/2 in. Inserted wet&dry paper (about 3/4 in) and hand turned dowel trying to stay in alignment .Took me most of the evening but now bullets just go through with a firm push. This revolver always showed a slight tendency to lead at higher velocities. Nothing major but always starting at the con e then maybe 2-3 in. up the bore of the 61/2 barrel.My loads were usually of the old Lyman #2 alloy or lately just wheelweights.My load was either 10 gr. of herco and 158swc or 14.5 2400 and same bullet. I had good luck with an old 358156 hp mould but it was slow at one cav. and didn't shoot to same poi as plainbase slug.
Getting back to my flex-hone title, I'd like to do the same to a sp101 with extremely tight throats.IT LEADS. I carry jacketed for social carry but I shoot cast in every other case.Shoud I get 400 or 800 grit and how fast should I turn it (with cutting oil) of course.Million other questions but I'll save them so I don't bore you. Thanks Glen

[tek4260]

That dowel rod idea seems like an easy way to screw up. Why not buy the Manson reamer kit from Brownells and do your revolvers, then sell it here for nearly what you paid for it. Or send the cylinder to cylindersmith and wait about 4 days for it to be back in your hands.

Not trying to offend. I have ruined enough stuff in my life and found that the right tool for the job is a must. Heck, with what things sell for on internet forums, you may be able to use it and turn a profit at the same time :)

[subsonic]

I borrowed a .4525" reamer that yeilded .4518" throats. Ended up using a metal dowel in a drill and some 320 emery to get .453" that I really needed anyway. YMMV.

Some people shouldn't own a screwdriver. Others can handle this without messing it up.
There's only one way to find out for sure. Since I have rebuilt several engines and I am a somewhat mechanically inclined tool-user, I wasn't afraid of this. An engineer I work with was scared to death of it, but impressed with the final result.

It's not rocket surgery.

[RobS]

I too have opened up cylinder throats with 3/4" strips of 400 grit followed with 600 grit dry/wet sand paper tightly wrapped around an aluminum dowel that I put a slit in a.k.a split dowel. To keep the rod centered in the throat I took a fired piece of brass cut it short (about 1/4"-3/8") and drilled the same size diameter hole as the rod through the primer pocket and used this at the chamber end. I use a cordless drill at snail pace to turn the rod.

I agree that it can be screwed up if a person doesn't check often and if a person doesn't use a rod large enough for the calibered chamber they are working on. It isn't for a person who isn't comfortable working with hand tools either.

[PacMan]

I used an aluminum rod like RobS but built up the dia. close to throat size on one end and then built up the joining end to match the cylinder dia using beagling tape. I did not split the rod but just tightly wraped the throat section with sanding paper,cutting it a little to long to go into the throat and then trimming the length with sissors until it would fit tightly.

I will say that if i ever do it again i will most likely try what RobS done.

Go slow and check often is the tip of the day.Also dont let the paper stick out past the cylinder if possible as that will round the face of the throats.

Dwight

[Hammerhead]

I don't like the idea of the flex hone in a cylinder. We have tried them in plastics molding dies for the heating elements and cutting was inconsistent. They wear out quickly and tend to round the entrance of the hole.
if you don't use a reamer, the wet/dry paper over dowel would be my choice.

[leftiye]

First one I ever did 40 years ago was with a dowel like Glenkans did. That Colt Officer's model would shoot ground squirrels at 60 yards. You have to remember that you are only taking out one or two thousandths total (= .0005 to .001" per side). You can't possibly get very crooked in that distance unless you try to. I.E. if you give straightness any thought - like maybe using a chamber diameter dowell (minus a few thou.) that is stepped down for the chamber mouths, and inserting it into the chambers from the rear, it can't cut anything but concentric and straight - especially if you don't torque the cut by locking the cylinder down (hold it in your hand). I use this method driven by a hand drill, and check size with pin gauges. Sandpaper just doesn't cut all that fast.

[leftiye]

Brownell's does recommend and sell flexi hones for polishing chambers (not just the mouths). However if you start with four hundred grit wet or dry sandpaper, by the time you're done opening up the mouths it will be worn, and it will produce a plenty good (smooth) surface with no further polishing.

[wildcatter]

I would only use the proper tools as I have found when I improvise it is never 100%, the results I have had with cylinders I have reamed have been worth the investment in a proper tool, these are only 25 yard groups but all with 200 grain to 340 grain cast slugs from cylinders reamed to be uniform. I would never try to hone a chamber as it only takes a slightly out of round chamber to destroy a cylinder, and throats done whis way would have to end up with tapered exit holes. resulting in consequences similar to a bad crown.

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/saumbi/XD7P1686-1.jpg

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/saumbi/XD7P1485.jpg

And I asure anyone that is after this kind of accuracy out of a revolver will get NO WHERE close shooting jacket's through a cast fouled barrel and most as importantly cast boolits trough a barrel that is dry fouled with jacketed loads. In nearly 40 years I have found that cast boolit accuracy requires a barrel seasoned by a couple to several shots of good cast and lubed boolits. Same goes for jackets, you need to start either one with a clean barrel and stay with one or the other if I am shooting jackets (which I don't do anymore in revolvers) and I am going to switch to cast I know I can't get groups like this without starting with a clean barrel and properly season it with well lubed cast boolits, then I can get this every time and as long as I keep shooting the same type boolits I seldom have to clean to keep this accuracy. If you aren't getting these results every time you emery a throat, maybe you should try a reemer. The thing I am pointing out is if you use a tool that was designed for a certain job, you WILL PROBABLY get better results, and to a beginner anything else is good practice is a recipe for failure?? Just my opinion!

[glenkans]

After thinking about cylinder throats and whether or not to get a reamer , I think I' ll go ahead and spend the money and do it right . Got several other revolvers that probably could use some treatment. I know my sp101 is tight and I don't want to spend days grinding away. On the other hand 80.00 bucks would buy a lot of components.Learned long ago that there are things you can't fudge on so I'll call Brownells. This ruger Bhawk in 357 is one I've had since I was 17 and am now 58.Its pretty worn but I think it's the most beautiful revolver in the world.I wonder if there is something wrong with me for feeling this way. Any therapists in the house. Best wishes ,Glen

[glenkans]

Can I use Kroil as a lube for cutting if I do it by hand. I have a drill press so should I put my T handle on chuck and turn by hand or what is the proper way?Thanks , Glen

[MtGun44]

If you have a drill press, look into a lap. This is a real machinist's tool and with a mill or
good drill press it will produce round holes centered accurately on the original hole.

MSC has brass laps in a great range of sizes. IIRC, under $20.

Understand that a reamer leaves a rough surface and must be polished afterwards where a
lap will leave it smooth, round and not tapered, if operated correctly in a machine, not a
hand drill.

Bill

[BeeMan]

Very fine abrasive paper on a suitable mandrel will work fine to uniform and slightly enlarge cylinder throats on a revolver. A pilot to center the mandrel in the chamber is a must for me, as I'm trying to equal or better the results of a reamer or brass machinists lap. Hand work should not be an excuse for accepting less than premium results. Most important, measure, have a plan for what you want to do, go slow, measure, measure, go slow, measure, measure.

It can work. I cleaned up Ruger factory 45 Colt throats to a uniform round diameter and half a thousandth over the smoothed up forcing cone. Soft cast slugs pushed through the throats were measured with a 1 inch micrometer. I know the measurements were correct because after the job was done I took slugs and the cylinder to work. A friend in QA used the CMM to measure 8 points on each diameter for every throat then plotted all the data for me.

Result: no leading at normal or Ruger 45 load levels, and improved accuracy. No bad for an evening's effort in a satisfying hobby.

I did not have a digital camera at the time, but the mandrel and pilot I used are still in my miscellaneous tools drawer on the bench. Maybe some day I'll post a pic.

BeeMan

eta:
Glen, Kroil is what I used for keeping the paper from loading up. You will need to use power for this as the paper takes off very little metal at a time. I started with 320 grit silicon carbide, drove the mandrel with a variable speed cordless drill and hand holding the cylinder, counted seconds in each chamber on fresh paper, then ran one pass with fresh 600 grit paper before checking progress. Repeat as needed, especially the measuring part.

[glenkans]

Sir, you mentioned about using a lap from some company I'm not familiar with.Could you give me some particulars such as what kind of lap . diameter, speed to run it, means of lubrication and anything else I might need to know.I realize the cylinder would need to be mounted in some block type fastener and then vised down, but beyond that ,,,I know nothing.....Thanks,Glen

[BeeMan]

Hello Glen,

I know your last post was directed to MtGun44 but I'm going to chime in. Please don't take offense at this as internet forums leave a lot to be desired for understanding a person's skills, knowledge, and aptitude.That said, I've done this and plenty of other similar work, I'm home, and I'm bored because of restrictions against physical activity (including the force to pull the handle on the press and size brass or boolits.) So, I'll stick my foot in my mouth:groner:

If you have to ask what a machinist's lap is, the particulars to apply it to this task, etc. please hold off on doing this job yourself. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't; just that your questions indicate unpreparedness.

To show my support I'll try to get a few pic ups with some step by step. I don't have a lap, so I'll look something up for you.

BeeMan

[BeeMan]

http://www.moldshoptools.com/catalog/list.php?category_id=103

http://www.travers.com/skulist.asp?RequestData=CA_Search&navPath=All+Products%2F%2F%2F%2FAbrasives%2C+Files +%26+Deburring%2F%2F%2F%2FAttribSelect%3DBrand%3D% 27Acro%27%2F%2F%2F%2FAttribSelect%3DSize%3D%271-1%2F8%22%27&q=block+id+112470+and+class+level3+id+29980&minPrice=$13.00

Here are a couple sources for brass barrel laps. They can be adjusted over a slight range of diameters and use an abrasive paste to do the cutting. They can do what you want to do, plus lap bullet size dies (my experience with them.)

[glenkans]

Glad to get any help I can. No I dont' know much about machining etc.. I try to completely think my projects through before hand but you know..... I'm getting braver but I am no fool and don't want to over-extent my limited reach. I can do my trigger work on nm Ruger sa and have fit pawls by lots of judicious filing and trying. I know I have limitations so I will ask about something before making a fool of myself. I know I can't put metal back on and I thank anyone with knowledge that will share it.Thanks Guys . Do you think a simple chamber reamer like a Manson would be the easiest,safest way to stay out of trouble.If so, should I polish with a dowel and maybe 1000 grit wet or dry on a fit dowel? Sorry about the 50 questions ........I know nothing....... Glen

[wildcatter]

Glad to get any help I can. No I dont' know much about machining etc.. I try to completely think my projects through before hand but you know..... I'm getting braver but I am no fool and don't want to over-extent my limited reach. I can do my trigger work on nm Ruger sa and have fit pawls by lots of judicious filing and trying. I know I have limitations so I will ask about something before making a fool of myself. I know I can't put metal back on and I thank anyone with knowledge that will share it.Thanks Guys . Do you think a simple chamber reamer like a Manson would be the easiest,safest way to stay out of trouble.If so, should I polish with a dowel and maybe 1000 grit wet or dry on a fit dowel? Sorry about the 50 questions ........I know nothing....... Glen

As others have said, it has to be perfect, anything less from one chamber to the next and it will will shoot six diferent ways, all six must be identical or there will be flyers, and if none are the same it will have 6 flyers, rifles have one chamber only, revolvers have to be reapeted 6 times indentically. besides less than perfect and some will cause leading. Mine all shoot high velocity 1300 fps with plain base boolits from ww alloy and NO LEADING, Gas Checks in my FA 454 Casual to over 1600 fps and zero leading, all were reamed and none were honed or polished!!! This is one job where size matters!!:D

[tek4260]

After thinking about cylinder throats and whether or not to get a reamer , I think I' ll go ahead and spend the money and do it right . Got several other revolvers that probably could use some treatment. I know my sp101 is tight and I don't want to spend days grinding away. On the other hand 80.00 bucks would buy a lot of components.Learned long ago that there are things you can't fudge on so I'll call Brownells. This ruger Bhawk in 357 is one I've had since I was 17 and am now 58.Its pretty worn but I think it's the most beautiful revolver in the world.I wonder if there is something wrong with me for feeling this way. Any therapists in the house. Best wishes ,Glen



Wise call.

www.cylindersmith.com has a few links down the left side of the page that will answer some questions. When you get done with it, it will sell here for about 80% of what you paid in about 20 minutes [smilie=l:

[MtGun44]

A lap is an expandable brass tool used with abrasives to lap a hole larger while keeping it
smooth and round.

You would mount the cylinder into a V block, but have the V block free floating on a flat,
clean and lightly oiled drill press table. I would recommend dial indicating the table if you
have one to make sure the table is square to the quill.

If you have never done this sort of work, you may want to stay away from it, but it isn't
too hard if you have a good drill press, square up the table (or a mill) and take your time.
Let the v-blocked cylinder float to stay aligned with the center of the original hole.

Probably start with around 240 gr and quickly move up to 360 then polish with 600 and/or 800
at the end. Depends a lot on how much you are removing.

Bill

[tek4260]

Can I use Kroil as a lube for cutting if I do it by hand. I have a drill press so should I put my T handle on chuck and turn by hand or what is the proper way?Thanks , Glen


Kroil would work, but cutting fluid would be cheaper. Heck I used 3 in 1 oil and it worked fine. Use the chuck from your drill press to hand turn the cutter(if you can remove it from the press) or a t-handle. Just be easy with the t-handle and dont put too much side to side pressure.

Here are some reads on how to do it

http://www.gunblast.com/Brownells_Reamer.htm


Page 4, Ruffbirds comments has good pics of the process

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10354&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

[uscra112]

Flexhones chamfer everything they touch. I used to use them for finishing two-stroke engine rebore jobs, for that very reason. But belling the mouths of your chambers is not what you want to do.

[nanuk]

has anyone ever tried to slot an aluminum or brass rod mid length, and expand it?

I read an article on a machinist site where the aluminum rod was turned to about .001 under the hole size, then slit a 1 inch slot from about 1/4 inch from one end towards the handle end.

then a the lap was embedded with grit, and run into the hole, and turned with a handdrill.
then, a piece of paper was wedged into the slot, and run in again, aiming for the center of the slit area. that way, there would be as little rounding as can be.

[BeeMan]

Glen,

Parts are all laid out to take pictures of my honing setup, but I still need to do so and write it up. In the meantime, here is a link to the article that convinced me I could do this.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/59

You can do it too, as it sounds like you analyze and think things through. Let us know what you end up doing and how it turns out.

BeeMan

[glenkans]

Beeman that's a great informative article showing that you can get some great results from a pretty affordable piece. Is that your article? Whether or not you did ,I feel I'm in the presence of some pretty good gray matter here. That's what's so great about the web. Anyway those blackhawks are hard to beat and they just keep following me home.Thinking about a mid-frame 45 convertible in stainless. What say you?I too would like a 4 5/8 barrel on mine and they're only offered in 5 1/2 at the moment. Don't know if I should get one of the mid length barrels or HOPE they'll be a catalog item with shorter barrel.Again, what say you?I know you don't know but you can probably guess better than I.. Best wishes ,Glen

[Wayne Smith]

After thinking about cylinder throats and whether or not to get a reamer , I think I' ll go ahead and spend the money and do it right . Got several other revolvers that probably could use some treatment. I know my sp101 is tight and I don't want to spend days grinding away. On the other hand 80.00 bucks would buy a lot of components.Learned long ago that there are things you can't fudge on so I'll call Brownells. This ruger Bhawk in 357 is one I've had since I was 17 and am now 58.Its pretty worn but I think it's the most beautiful revolver in the world.I wonder if there is something wrong with me for feeling this way. Any therapists in the house. Best wishes ,Glen

Glen, the therapist in the house asks: "Where is the problem? I'd feel the same way, in fact, I do!" 'Course, then, I've known for years that I am weird!

[BeeMan]

Glen,

No that is not my article. I see and / or review enough process instructions at work, so the prospect of writing up a really good article of my own keeps getting deferred.

I used to read the forums there regularly a few years ago. This place has now become the standard for all things 'cast bullet.' However, there are still quite a few gems to be found elsewhere. That site has a number of good articles including this one and making custom m-dies stems.

If you can provide for your family, pay your bills, and a mid size Ruger SA in 45 Colt trips your trigger, then who am I am to say? It would probably not be prudent for me to handle the same, since I would like to try something smaller than the 7 1/2 inch full size Bisley.

Enjoy!

BeeMan