8mm Lebel Rolling Block

[Dragoon 45]

Went to a small gunshow this weekend. Saw a Rolling Block Military Rifle in 8mm Lebel. Price tag was almost $1200. I saw nothing exceptional about the rifle except that it appeared to be in original condition with maybe 50% of the original finish. It did still have the cleaning rod under the barrel. I was under the impression that Remington built well over 200,000 of these rifles for the French during WW I.

Am I wrong, or was this rifle way over priced?

[maglvr]

IMHO........ For a non-popular(from a shooting standpoint) caliber it was only overpriced by $600-$700.

[Ed in North Texas]

I might be mistaken, but I think we didn't get too many of the 8mm Lebel rifles imported to the US (though Uncle kept me out of the country for a number of years in which RBs were being imported). They certainly don't show up with anywhere near the regularity of the Number 5 action 7mm Spanish chambered RBs. These "Model 1915" (a Model 1910 in 8mm Lebel w/ slight change to the rear sight graduation) RBs haven't been common, but they do show up from time to time. 2 auctions show the spread 2005 - a little under $600 for what seems to have been a better condition than this one. 2009 - $1200, again the condition seemed better.

Remington shipped 75,000 of these to France and an unknown # to Russia in 7.62x54mm. Many did not survive the war and colonial service afterwards.

[Dragoon 45]

I had read that over 200,000 were made for France and well over 500,000 in 7.62 x 54R for Russia. Again according to what I read, except for barrels, most of these rifles were put together from parts left over from previous production runs of the rolling blocks. As I have not really researched the rolling block, I assumed these numbers were fairly accurate based on reported production of earlier military rolling blocks. But this info was from one source only, so it could be very well in error.

I just looked at the rifle in question and noticed two things: it was chambered in a fairly had to get supplies for caliber to reload for, and the price seemed way high. I would like to find a rolling block action to built a .40-65 BPCRS rifle on. In my area you just don't see many rolling blocks anymore.


I might be mistaken, but I think we didn't get too many of the 8mm Lebel rifles imported to the US (though Uncle kept me out of the country for a number of years in which RBs were being imported). They certainly don't show up with anywhere near the regularity of the Number 5 action 7mm Spanish chambered RBs. These "Model 1915" (a Model 1910 in 8mm Lebel w/ slight change to the rear sight graduation) RBs haven't been common, but they do show up from time to time. 2 auctions show the spread 2005 - a little under $600 for what seems to have been a better condition than this one. 2009 - $1200, again the condition seemed better.

Remington shipped 75,000 of these to France and an unknown # to Russia in 7.62x54mm. Many did not survive the war and colonial service afterwards.

[doubs43]

I had read that over 200,000 were made for France and well over 500,000 in 7.62 x 54R for Russia. Again according to what I read, except for barrels, most of these rifles were put together from parts left over from previous production runs of the rolling blocks.

While I can't speak to the totals you quote, what I will say is that I'm highly skeptical that Remington would have enough parts in inventory to make "most" of a 700,000 gun production run. I could see a few hundred or even a thousand or so but inventory costs money and no firearms maker of the period was likely to keep the amount of parts on hand needed to make 10's of thousands of guns. Such information is suspect IMO.

FWIW, unless you insist upon an original Remington RB, Pedersoli makes one in 40-65 with pistol grip and double set triggers. Dixie Gun Works sells them for $1175.

[bydand]

100,291 Model 99 rifles chambered for the french "Balle D' cartrige (8mm Lebel) were ordered on the French Contract of November 19, 1914
Work began on Nov. 24th 1914
Starting delivery March 2 , 1915
Average rate of production 200 rifles per day
Date and rate of maximum production June 26 1915 at 300 rifles per day.

Most of the rifles appear to have gone to colonies like Morocco, Algeria and French Indo-China. Several years after WW1, many were modified to use the Balle N bullet and such rifles wil have a "N" stamped on the top of the reciever.

About 2981 of the Russian M1897/02 Remington Spetskya Vintovka Obrazetz 97 were made. Oddly enough, they were fitted with MAXIM silencers

[Ed in North Texas]

100,291 Model 99 rifles chambered for the french "Balle D' cartrige (8mm Lebel) were ordered on the French Contract of November 19, 1914
Work began on Nov. 24th 1914
Starting delivery March 2 , 1915
Average rate of production 200 rifles per day
Date and rate of maximum production June 26 1915 at 300 rifles per day.

Most of the rifles appear to have gone to colonies like Morocco, Algeria and French Indo-China. Several years after WW1, many were modified to use the Balle N bullet and such rifles wil have a "N" stamped on the top of the reciever.

About 2981 of the Russian M1897/02 Remington Spetskya Vintovka Obrazetz 97 were made. Oddly enough, they were fitted with MAXIM silencers

Don't doubt your numbers, but do you have a cite for the "Model 99"? I've never seen any mention in writing of a RB #5 model given a "Model 99" designation and I'd like to update for my personal information. Thanks
Ed

[Dragoon 45]

I saw that one, but IIRC it is only available in a 30" barrel. I would like to have a 32" for the longer sight radius.


While I can't speak to the totals you quote, what I will say is that I'm highly skeptical that Remington would have enough parts in inventory to make "most" of a 700,000 gun production run. I could see a few hundred or even a thousand or so but inventory costs money and no firearms maker of the period was likely to keep the amount of parts on hand needed to make 10's of thousands of guns. Such information is suspect IMO.

FWIW, unless you insist upon an original Remington RB, Pedersoli makes one in 40-65 with pistol grip and double set triggers. Dixie Gun Works sells them for $1175.

[Dragoon 45]

I kind of suspected the numbers I had were wrong (came from a web site), but did not have anything to compare them with. Can you give me a reference with this information as I would like to read up on the history of the rolling block.

Thanks.


100,291 Model 99 rifles chambered for the french "Balle D' cartrige (8mm Lebel) were ordered on the French Contract of November 19, 1914
Work began on Nov. 24th 1914
Starting delivery March 2 , 1915
Average rate of production 200 rifles per day
Date and rate of maximum production June 26 1915 at 300 rifles per day.

Most of the rifles appear to have gone to colonies like Morocco, Algeria and French Indo-China. Several years after WW1, many were modified to use the Balle N bullet and such rifles wil have a "N" stamped on the top of the reciever.

About 2981 of the Russian M1897/02 Remington Spetskya Vintovka Obrazetz 97 were made. Oddly enough, they were fitted with MAXIM silencers

[Four Fingers of Death]

it was chambered in a fairly had to get supplies for caliber to reload for,.

They are not hard to load for, Privi Partisan brass is available as are Lee die sets and Lee make a mould as well, (I have one on backorder).

[Ed in North Texas]

Don't doubt your numbers, but do you have a cite for the "Model 99"? I've never seen any mention in writing of a RB #5 model given a "Model 99" designation and I'd like to update for my personal information. Thanks
Ed

I gave up on having a citation posted, went to both Bing and Google - neither search engine came up with any mention of a Model 99 Remington Rolling Block. However, in searching on 8mm Lebel RBs, I found a response to a question about the 8mm Lebel RB on Gunboards where the responder, "DocAV", called the 7mm Spanish rifle the M99/1902. He also repeated the story that the rifles were assembled from 1902 parts (still inventoried at Remington).

No matter the numbers, whether the 75k I found, or the 100k, there is no way Remington had sufficient parts for anywhere near those numbers (as was previously stated in this thread). What I have read is that Remington was setting up to produce the Berthier 8mm rifles contracted by France. With the RB machinery existing, Remington offered to produce the RB in 8mm Lebel while getting production going on the Berthier and the French accepted since they were desperate for firearms.

What the exact number might be, I don't know. I believe it is rational to believe the story about making the rifles from left over parts is patently wrong. Using the 1902 Patent rolling on the tang as proof of left over status is misleading because no new patent was applied for, or needed (the War was within the 17 year life of the 1902 patent without extension). And there is never any need to revamp the rolling stamp when resuming new production at a later date if there isn't a new patent (besides it is expensive to change the tooling when there is no need).

I've seen these rifles called "Model 1914" and "Model 1915", the former from the alleged date of the contract and start of production in late 1914, the latter based on the delivery in early 1915. Call them what you want, they are built on a Number 5 action in caliber 8mm Lebel.

[Stampede]

If you ever need/like to reload the 8mm Lebel, please let me know.

I have a reliable and accurate loads with VithaVuori Powder (N-140). The Lebel cartridge is still very much reloaded over here (The Netherlands) by users of antique and collectable firearms. Many reload this cartridge because you can’t buy new rounds and if you can, you pay top Dollar. If you are extremely lucky you will find cases with boxer primers. The Berdan primers causes extreme headaches, these primers are just as rare than the cases them selfs.

I have the N-140 loads for the 200 gr (8mm / .323) FMJ Boattail bullets and loads for Cast Boolits ranging from 190grain to 210grain..... let me know. I have no data for American gun powders....sorry.

The Remington Rolling Block rifles are much used here and easy to get your hands on, only the rounds causes problems as mentioned before. Harder to get are original Lebel Rifles them selfs in a good to excellent condition. You pay for a Remington RB rifle about $600.– in a top condition and $2000.– for an original Lebel. (prices converted from Euros to Dollars).

Peter (Stampede)

[Four Fingers of Death]

I might have to export my pristine Berthier (complete with 5 shot conversion and 10 clips!!!!!) to the Netherlands!

[Ed in North Texas]

I might have to export my pristine Berthier (complete with 5 shot conversion and 10 clips!!!!!) to the Netherlands!

Except he was citing values for the Model 1886 and M1886/M93 Lebel rifle, France's issue rifle and still in production until 1920. The Berthier carbines Models 1890, 1892, 1902, 1907 and 1907/15 were issued concurrently with the Lebel rifle, and also issued later than the Lebel.

There's a reason the 8mm Lebel cartridge has that deep groove around the primer, the Lebel rifle had an underbarrel tubular magazine.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Except he was citing values for the Model 1886 and M1886/M93 Lebel rifle, France's issue rifle and still in production until 1920. The Berthier carbines Models 1890, 1892, 1902, 1907 and 1907/15 were issued concurrently with the Lebel rifle, and also issued later than the Lebel.

There's a reason the 8mm Lebel cartridge has that deep groove around the primer, the Lebel rifle had an underbarrel tubular magazine.

That'd be right, LOL, it sounded too easy.

Mine is a Berthier, marked St Eiteene (in fancy scroll) with a 5 shot conversion. I sort of remember something about it being a M16 model (may be to do with the magazine conversion).

It sure is one homely old girl (like most French arms).

[Ed in North Texas]

snip

It sure is one homely old girl (like most French arms).

True. That may also be because the designer, Mr. Berthier, was a railroad engineer and not involved in the firearms business prior to designing his carbine. It worked, which might be a tribute to his general skills (like Mikhail Kalashnikov, a tanker NCO prior to designing his Automat Kalashnikov, though the AK was far, far, far more successful). The members of la legion etranger francais (AKA The French Foreign Legion) were issued the Berthier, and promptly demanded the return of the Lebel rifles.

[Four Fingers of Death]

If Monsieur Berthier can be blamed for the goofy design of the rifle, it is a proud tradition that was strictly adhered to in the MAS (I have one of these ugly ducklings as well) and even in their current Mattel toy style rifle.

I haven't tested the Lebel yet as I have procrastinated and consequently am still awaiting the mould which I only ordered a few weeks ago, byt the MAS is a very accurate rifle, ugly as, but accurate!

[Ed in North Texas]

If Monsieur Berthier can be blamed for the goofy design of the rifle, it is a proud tradition that was strictly adhered to in the MAS (I have one of these ugly ducklings as well) and even in their current Mattel toy style rifle.

I haven't tested the Lebel yet as I have procrastinated and consequently am still awaiting the mould which I only ordered a few weeks ago, byt the MAS is a very accurate rifle, ugly as, but accurate!

There is little argument to be had that the French have had a penchant for firearms designs which can charitably be called "unusual". I have a couple of the MAS 1936 rifles, and remember when well used '36s were on the racks at Sears and Roebuck stores many, many years ago. The more recent imports were the better condition rifles the French kept in reserve. You are correct that they are accurate, and I think they had a better sighting design than any other bolt action general issue military rifle of the design period (late 20s to early 30s).

[Four Fingers of Death]

I like the simplicity of the MAS rear sight. If the rifle grouped to the left or right, you took out the aperature and replaced it with one that was offset accordingly. I'm not such a great shot with Palma type matches, but took one to the mound with shirtsleeves and no sling and shot a presonal best at 300yds.

[primersp]

the last modification of the lebel was in 1935 the lebel was cut down ,since his baionete
the r35 modèle r for "raccourci "cut down an 35 for the year of modification the tubular magazine hold 5 rounds
some régiments of the "légion étrangère" in this time principaly based in north africa(algeria & marocco) and sahara désert and few bataillons of "tirailleurs indochinois" were fitted with this rifle

[Ed in North Texas]

the last modification of the lebel was in 1935 the lebel was cut down ,since his baionete
the r35 modèle r for "raccourci "cut down an 35 for the year of modification the tubular magazine hold 5 rounds
some régiments of the "légion étrangère" in this time principaly based in north africa(algeria & marocco) and sahara désert and few bataillons of "tirailleurs indochinois" were fitted with this rifle

Thank you for the contribution. Always nice to have additional information which is not generally known in this country.