Setting up for boolits in a new 9mm

[MtGun44]

We have been having a steady flow of "9mm leading and hitting sideways" sort of threads, so I thought it might
be useful to report what I just did to check out my "new" Walther P1 (P38 w/aluminum frame) 9mm handgun before
shooting boolits in it.

First, I had fired about 20 rounds of factory 9mm ball ammo through the pistol, just to see if it would work properly
and how the accuracy was. No problems, and I was pleasantly surprised that the trigger was decent in both SA
and DA modes, and the sights are not at all bad.

First, let's clean the gun up a bit. Brass brush and a couple patches, nothing big. Now, I picked up a Lee 358-105-SWC
boolit that I happened to have handy and a 1/4" steel rod with a .25 ACP case permanently jammed on one end. I
dismounted the barrel and dropped the boolit into the chamber, and drove it through the lubricated barrel with a small
brass hammer. Before it miked at .359 x .360 and after, two rifling grooves were .3585 and one was .358, so the bore
is a good bit oversized, fairly common in European 9mms in my experience.

So now I take a case that was fired in the gun and chamfer the mouth and clean it inside with a brass brush and check
the inside with my pin gauges. A .356 (minus) pin gauge will just barely enter the fired case mouth. This is worrisome
because it is pretty clear that I will need .359 boolit or larger to make this one work, and now there is a question of
whether the chamber will accept (and release when fired!) a loaded round with a .359 boolit seated. I will start VERY
low and see if the chamber will safely release the fat boolits.

So now, I need to make up a dummy round and see how it will chamber with a .359 boolit seated. I size and expand a
case with my single stage 9mm die set (I have a Dillon 550 setup, too) and seat a .359 Lee 358-105-SWC boolit to the
crimp groove and then run it into the TC die. I drop the dummy round and it chambers up until about 1/8" is protruding
at the back. Since I don't know much about the P38 design, I slip the slide onto the barrel and close it all the way, noting
that the breech face is recessed about 1/8" into the slide, so the round is fitting the chamber just fine - good news!. Next, I
want to see if the brass is sizing down the .359 boolit when it is seated. I measure the expander in the die set and it
measures .3535, so there is some concern that the expanded case may size down the boolit as it is seated.

I also inspect the lead shoulder of the boolit which is protruding from the case, looking for rifling marks. I see nothing, also
good. If I was seeing rifling, or the round would not fully seat with 1 lb or less force, I would seat the boolit deeper
until it would. TC setting is also a controlling factor in the dummy round seating properly. Both are OK for my dummy round.

Pulling the seated boolit from the dummy round is next, and it still mike's out at .359, which is great news. So with my std
air cooled wheel weights with this Lee boolit, unsized at .359 and seated with my normal single stage press dies, I can
expect to deliver a boolit that is at least 1/2 of one thousandth of an inch larger than the groove diameter. I hope that is
enough, and it likely will be.

So - now I know that I probably need fatter boolits in this gun than my normal .357 or .358 diameter that I use in with my
Lee 356-120-TC mold which is my most commonly used 9mm boolit. I will try the .358 version of this one and see if it is
big enough to work in the .3585 groove diameter barrel without leading. I won't be suprised if it is not big enough.

So - if you are starting out with a 9mm this is the path you should take.

1. Slug the barrel, and measure groove diameter with a MICROMETER. A caliper is typically only +/- .001 or even .002"
accuracy and this isn't good enough for this job. You need a micrometer with .0001" accuracy for this job. Enco tools
online frequently has them on sale for under $35.

2. Plan on using a boolit about .001" larger than groove diameter, and you might even need .002 larger.

3. I recommend the two Lee designs 358-105-SWC and 356-120-TC used with NRA 50-50 lube. I do not
recommend the tumble lube designs from Lee, although some have had success with them, many have had serious
problems in 9mm. The Lee Alox tumble lube system is marginal, but very cheap to get started in, a signficant
advantage for the new caster. It seems to work most reliably in lower pressure and velocity loads.

4. Make a dummy round to set the LOA and degree of taper crimp (TC), and see whether a case with a boolit the correct diameter
will chamber properly. Boolit diameter MIGHT be too large to chamber, and LOA and TC are set to work with your
chamber.

5. Pull the boolit from the dummy round and make sure you have not sized it down during the seating process.

If you follow this routine, you will have a good chance to have good ammo which is accurate and does not lead, right
off the bat. Also, do not think that you need a super hard alloy or water dropping to harden them for 9mm. Air cooled
wheel weights will be just fine. In fact, too hard and too small are the root cause of most 9mm problems with boolits.

Bill

[theperfessor]

A very clear and sensible way to get started loading a 9. Good job. Ought to be a sticky.

[bhn22]

Seconded. Can some kindly, esteemed Moderator please do this? This is actually a good guideline for any caliber.

[btroj]

Very well stated and worded. This is the way every new autoloader should be looked at.

[buyobuyo]

Nice write up. I just got my 9mm problems solved actually. Mine was a powder issue.

I was trying to use AA#7 like I do with my jacketed loads. I was getting the velocity that I wanted and no barrel leading (even with 8 bhn boolits). My problem was a build up of lead at the end of the chamber that caused the following rounds to not chamber fully and the gun wouldn't go into battery. I switched to Unique and the build up went away, but I had barrel leading which requires that I water drop or heat treat my boolits with my current alloy.

[MtGun44]

Thanks, guys.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Yessir--sticky this one!

[crabo]

Thanks for doing this. I am about to start loading for my 9mm AR and have not been looking forward to it. I have been planning on using the Lee 125 rnfp that I use in my 38s/357s/ and 38 Super. I think it should be a good small game boolit.

I also have RanchDog 9mm tumble lube boolit and that is what I am hoping will work well with 45/45/10. It would be easy to cast and prep a bunch of them in a hurry.

[MtGun44]

You're welcome, hoped to make it easier for someone that is just getting ready to use
boolits in a new gun, and as said by others, the basic concepts apply to semiautos in general.

Get your fit right and you will be well ahead. It seems like we have reports of 45/45/10 doing
better than straight Alox (aka Mule Snot), so good luck with the TL. My experience with TL
is limited and unhappy, and no experience with 45/45/10. Ranch Dog's molds have
a good reputation.

Bill

[MT Gianni]

I read it and understood it. I also stickied it here and in Classics and Sticky's. Thanks, Bill.

[MtGun44]

Wow. That's neat.

Hope it helps the many new casters starting up in semi-autos.

Bill

[lead Foot]

Well done Bill. Iv'e been loading for years with lead boolits and the 9mm was a big learning curve for me. Though my 9mm is going perfectly now, your info would have helped a lot. After the gun was shooting well, the odd round would jam on the ramp. The OAL was 1.106. I set it back to 1.098. Now it feeds perfect and even more accurate than before. My 9mm it just is accuate as my 686. If the sights were better and my eyes were younger who knows. Thanks again Bill for the post.
Your mate Phil from Australia;

[Treetop]

What a timely post for me. After 40+ years of casting, loading and shooting the .45 ACP, I just bought a 9mm Springfield Armory XDm.

I figured that if I ever wanted a "hi cap" pistol, I''d better act soon, if you know what I mean...

Anyway, thanks so much for this 9mm cast boolit primer! It's now obvious to me that the 9mm needs to be treated with much more attention to detail than my beloved .45 ACP. Tt.

PS: I have an old Lyman 358242 two cavity that I bought back in the 70s for my BIL's Browning Hi Power. The Hi Power is long gone now and the mold is still unused, so that's what I will start out with...

[bighoss]

what powder should i use for 9mm i got 115 grain cast boolits bullseye hs6 or unique and can i use the same load data as my fmjs my book dont have the data for cast and iam trying to find a book that has data for cast boolits and iam just starting with the cast boolits

[MtGun44]

I like Unique in 9mm.

No offense, but capitalization and punctuation are polite to help the reader.

Bill

[thegreatdane]

I like Unique in 9mm.

No offense, but capitalization and punctuation are polite to help the reader.

Bill

I'm currently shooting unique and bullseye in my 9mms with good results.

[Alan]

I like Red Dot. It is my go-to powder in 9mm and .45 for experimenting w/ boolits. I load 1 round in the mag, and rack the slide. I like to start with powder charges that will not lock the slide back, and increment .2 gr until the slide does lock back. Generally .1 or .2 gr above that will really make the group snuggle up close on the paper.

3.7 gr w/ a commercial 121gr pointed round nose wouldn't lock the slide consistently, 3.8 locked the slide, and 3.9 was the accuracy load. 4.0 and up the groups started opening up, and 4.1gr was a noticeable deterioration.

This has worked to perfection, giving me a cheap accurate load in my 3 SIG P-6's, and the same load also shoots great in my Kimber Custom Target II 9mm.

[thegreatdane]

I'm currently shooting unique and bullseye in my 9mms with good results.

Clarification: Unique seems to be more apt for 9mm than Bullseye in the more commonly experienced boolit weights

[Bullet Caster]

Nice write up, Bill. Now I know what to do to reload my 9mm. However, I think that I'll use W-231 for my powder choice as it has been recommended for almost all semiautos. I've got a .45acp to reload for also. Thanks. BC

[gwpercle]

Bill

How did your loads shoot in the new P-1 ?

I,ve got a P-38 that I need to work up some loads for and if your method of development was sucessful I will follow your lead.

Never loaded for 9mm so I'm glad to have found this thread. I have a sneaking suspicon the .356 cast boolits on hand will not be the best fit.

I do have a 115 gr. swc- hp Lyman mould that is .358 and if it will feed , will do nicely. Going to go slug the barrel right now.

gary

[robertbank]

Nice write up, Bill. Now I know what to do to reload my 9mm. However, I think that I'll use W-231 for my powder choice as it has been recommended for almost all semiautos. I've got a .45acp to reload for also. Thanks. BC

Win 231 is my go to powder for 124/125 gr lead boolits. 4.1 gr makes PD for IDPA and is very accurate in all my 9MM guns. Unique is a close second but doesn't meter as well. When you are loading 10K - 20 k rounds a year of 9MM for competitions it is nice to have a powder that drops consistent leads from your powder measure. Other powders that work well in the 9MM are Universal and HS-6.

I have a Clays load that I use for my 154 gr boolits in 9MM. 2.6 gr works well to get to a PF of 130ish, enough for IDPA.
Take Care

Bob

[SlowSmokeN]

I have read this three times now and I can't get enough. Hope to be trying this in the near future.

Thank you for clear and understandable guidance.

Ryan

[smokemjoe]

I sure wished I would of read this 1st. 3 years ago or whenit been written up, I cast casted 5,000 bullets of 3 different molds and went by a book and sized them .003 under size and now lead, I was sure I knew it all,

[MtGun44]

I never did follow up here, but my .359 loads did just fine in the P1 (P38). Feed reliably,
reasonably accurate (not sure what the limits of the gun are yet) and do not lead.
I haven't had time to do a serious set of tests but it is definitely a workable load
and will keep me plinking with it until I get more serious on load development.

As to W-231 and BE, they should work well, but I seem to have had a bit better
accuracy with Unique. Don't think that this means much for your loads in your gun,
you may find that some other powder is better for your guns.

Bill

[robertbank]

Bill if you have any trouble getting consistent loads using Unique try HS 6, another very good powder for the 9MM. Meters extremely well out of my Dillon 550 dispenser.

Take Care

Bob

[HDS]

Any tips on what Vihtavuori powder works best for 147gr 9mm bullets? I am considering N340 or N350, I would like something I could share with .45ACP

[MtGun44]

Robert - I think you misunderstood. I have had great results with Unique.

HDS - As to Vihtavuori powders, sorry never have tried a one. Here they are very expensive,
and I already have many different kinds of pistol powders on hand, so I haven't been out
looking for new ones to try.

I'll be that in Finland they are a lot cheaper than US powders. I suggest you try whatever
one is in the medium fast to medium slow range of burning speed for pistols. Do you have
a burning speed chart that includes the Vihta powders? Find something in the same general
speed range as Unique or faster.

OK - I found a chart, http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

This shows N320 and N330 bracketing the range of speeds that would be appropriate for 9mm,
maybe you'd have some good results with N340, but I'd lean more towards starting with N330
based on the speed chart, and then trying N320, but this is theoretical, I have zero personal experience
with these. Good luck.

Bill

[HDS]

N320 could work I guess, used in .45 before and I have it already. And sadly the powder market here is pretty much just Vihtavuori, on occasiom some black powder and Norma might be found as well.

[MtGun44]

Well, better than no powder. I wonder why no US powders?

Bill

[HDS]

Lack of dealers I guess. In Germany they have much more choice but shipping up here seems nigh impossible. Just found out a store in Sweden has accurate, IMR, Winchester and Hogdon powders though and shipping from there might be possible.

[Ola]

There is a simple reason why we have a very limited selection of powders in Finland. Here powder is categorised as EXPLOSIVE (like TNT, ANFO...) In other European countries powder is a "burning substance" (like diesel, terpentine...).

As you can imagine importing EXPLOSIVES is difficult and very expensive. That's why we only have three brands officially available: Vihtavuori, Norma and Hodgdon.

If you ask me the reason for the explosive-status is nothing but protectionism: "If importing powders is expensive enough, Finns will have to buy the domestic brand Vihtavuori..." It seems to work that way, Norma and Hodgdon are VERY expensive.

[405]

Any tips on what Vihtavuori powder works best for 147gr 9mm bullets? I am considering N340 or N350, I would like something I could share with .45ACP

Easy one to answer- just go to the source for the data! The V V load manual is full of data for both 9mm and 45 ACP. Also, might look at http://www.lapua.com/en/products/reloading/vihtavuori-reloading-data

[Ola]

Just found out a store in Sweden has accurate, IMR, Winchester and Hogdon powders though and shipping from there might be possible.

Forgot that part earlier. Basically shipping from Sweden is a no-go. But if you bring it yourself (and tell no one) there should not be a problem. There isn't much of a border control between Sweden and Finland.


Any tips on what Vihtavuori powder works best for 147gr 9mm bullets? I am considering N340 or N350, I would like something I could share with .45ACP
I'd try 3N37 first. It has become my favorite for 9 mm and other calibers moderate loads with heavier bullets.

Because 3N37 is originally a .22LR powder, it burns cleanly and consistently with out high pressures, has low bulk, the grains are much smaller than f.e. in N350 so it is very easy to measure.

[HDS]

Forgot that part earlier. Basically shipping from Sweden is a no-go. But if you bring it yourself (and tell no one) there should not be a problem. There isn't much of a border control between Sweden and Finland.

The person I asked in the store said it was no problem, they would use bussfrakt (matkahuolto) and it would be 335kr (35 euros i figure) for up to 3kg.

[Ola]

We'll that is interesting. Let me know if it works out.

Just remember that the Swedish store is sending you stuff that needs no license to buy or anything like that. So there is no risk for them. But when the powder enters Finland it suddenly turns in to "explosive" that needs importing license ..

I hope you know what you are doing.

[HDS]

Hmm thats a bit worrying, hate to lose my permits because I wanted to buy some powder...

Edit: Would you happen to know which law it is? Looking at a law about explosives (28.5.1993/473) and in chapter 4 (about transfering explosives inside the european economic area) it has an exception for powder and primers for people with the permit to possess them.

[Ola]

Because I'm not sure how it goes, I phoned the local police department. There is a guy who usually knows everything about gun releated laws. But this time even he was puzzled. Now he is asking it from the Ministry of the Interior.

When he knows, he'll tell me. And then we should know for sure if it is legal or not. Ok?

[HDS]

He he not the first time finnish laws are so confusing nobody understands them :D Same thing with barrels, depending on who I asked at the police if they required a permit or not the answer varied from yes to no.

[Ola]

HDS:

This what the PD told me. It was quite complicated, but IIRC this is how it goes: up to 2 kg importing is OK. Over that and a permit is required, unless you go and get the powder yourself. Then the limit is higher.

If the stuff is coming over the boarder on a transportation firm, the firm must have the 1.4 transportation licence. F.e. Kaukokiito has the licence. Matkahuolto does not.

PM me if you want to ask straight from the source. I have the phone number.

And now gentlemen, back to the subject:

Setting up for boolits in a new 9mm

[archmaker]

Slugging the barrel IS important. I only had a 357 die and was afraid that the sized boolits I had were going to be to small.

Slugged the barrel and measured twice, and it is .3553 (Ruger P9c).

(I double/triple checked my measurements - measured the slugged boolits twice, the lubed bullet twice (.3575) and two known J-bullets twice (.3082).

Hope to shoot them soon, and we will see how they work (Lee-105 SWC)

[glowe]

Thanks, Great read

[superior]

My wife outshot everyone in her CHL course with the boolits I made and loaded for her. Glock 19, Lee 124 TC, Bullseye powder. After a complaint from another student, her ammo was disallowed and she had to finish the last portion of the course with factory 147gr softnose ammo. The factory stuff was far less accurate. The instructor lady wasn't familiar with the looks of a tumble-lubed boolit and decided that they may be unsafe to fire. I guess she thought it would be better to reduce her exposure to potential issues. LOL My wife assured her that the lube was normal for cast ammo, but ..oh well.
By the way, I dont want to reopen the Glock and cast can of worms, but I've fired several thousand cast through my 23 and her 19 with no issues whatsoever.

[tenneesse]

A little different question but I'll be reloading for a 9mm Mod 34 shortly and I have some cerrosafe I think its called I used some long ago and had a little trouble getting a good pour but thought I'd try again when the gun gets here. If I can get a clean pour would I get as accurate results as slugging the barrel. Ive never driven a slug down a barrel and when I think about it makes my toe nails curl though its obvious its done all the time. If I can get away with the melted whatever it is what I'd like to use it. I'd do both the chamber end and the muzzle end.

[thegreatdane]

Don't mess with the cerrosafe. Just slug. Use a brass rod, greased slug, and a 2x4 for a base. Use carpet or a towel if it makes you feel better. A soft air cooled boolit works great.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[tenneesse]

If my new Glock barrel is perhaps .356 in dia. ( a caliper check at the muzzles tells me it might be) and I attempt to slug it with a .358 dia cast boolit (that's been lubed (blue ring)) will it go through if I grease it or will I stick it? Ive looked at the slugging kits (Meister) and im assuming it soft lead and at $35 I sure like to use a boolit?

Lets say the barrels slugs .356 would I want to shoot .357 dia. sized rounds, .001 interference?

[retread]

Great write up Bill. I have been fighting through this problems with my new SR9. I was partly down the same path. I think your insight will speed up my progress greatly. It is very much appreciated.

Jay

[cenickles]

I am just getting everything together to reload 9mm. Supplies are limited at this time and the powder I found is Vihtavuori 3N37, 115gr LRN and CCI small pistol primers. I am having trouble finding the charge for the powder. The only thing I am finding is for FMJ and plated. would it be a problem to use that charge with the LRN's?

Curt

[Ray1946]

Thanks so much for the great article! I purchased a P-1 several years ago and decided to reload for it this year. I had several hollow-based wadcutters from when I was shooting .38Spl. These are about .359 with the heavy graphite coating, so I put them in the vise and squeezed them until they fattened up to .365 and then slugged the barrel in the P1. Wow, was I ever surprised! I had heard that some of the German guns had fat grooves, but 2 of the grooves were .3583 and the third was .3581. I am planning on polishing my .358 H&I up to .359 and going with that.

Back in '07 I shot for one season in the local IPSC league with my P1 and Winchester White Box. This was a real hoot and I decided to give it a try with lead bullets and all my saved up brass........................... RayT

[MtGun44]

Glad to hear that the post is helping people.

9mm has been a steady problem child for new boolit shooters, so
if this helps folks, I am happy to help.

I am baffled at the number of folks that are freaked out at the
idea of slugging a barrel. Use a brass rod to drive a soft lead
lubricated slug down a STEEL barrel. . . . pretty hard to mess
that up. Use a plastic mallet or chunk of 2x4 to hit the brass
rod and support it against wood block and you can't possibly
hurt the dismounted barrel.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

I revisit this thread every so often, and consider it a Cast Boolit Classic. My rocky path to success with the 9mm would have been smoothed and shortened markedly many years ago had someone gone to the trouble that Bill did to summarize his experiences so succinctly.

What Bill has condensed herein applies in equal measure to at least two similar autopistol calibers--the 40 S&W and the 10mm Auto. Nicely, the 40s and the 10s tend to be a lot less squirrelly about internal dimensioning of throats and grooves than are many 9mm barrels. Dimensional integrity REALLY starts to matter as pressures elevate in cast boolit reloading.

[Garyshome]

What is a good burn rate for the 9mm powder?

[MtGun44]

Unique and Bullseye are both good in 9mm Para. W231/HP38 would also be a good choice.

Bill

[zubrato]

Hi everyone,
I'm beginning my casting journey with two calibers, .38 special and 9mm.
Guess which is giving me more trouble.
I haven't been able to go to the range and try out my loads, however I have assembled a dummy round using my 124gr TC TL ice water quenched wheel weight boolits, and I noticed the base of the boolit had been swaged down by the case to .356 from .357, and in some areas to .3535. My barrel slugs at .357 at it's widest. BUT for this particular round, I ran it through the factory crimp die, knowing it might swage it down..
Should I expect leading? I know there's no replacement for actual experimentation, but I have so little time to get to the range, I really want to get everything right the first or second time.
I should mention, I will be using the glock OEM barrel, so leading is the big bad boogeyman and I'm just trying to shoot for cheap.
I will be working up using IMR 800X, and staying with this powder, so long as I can find more..

[robertbank]

Hi everyone,
I'm beginning my casting journey with two calibers, .38 special and 9mm.
Guess which is giving me more trouble.
I haven't been able to go to the range and try out my loads, however I have assembled a dummy round using my 124gr TC TL ice water quenched wheel weight boolits, and I noticed the base of the boolit had been swaged down by the case to .356 from .357, and in some areas to .3535. My barrel slugs at .357 at it's widest. BUT for this particular round, I ran it through the factory crimp die, knowing it might swage it down..
Should I expect leading? I know there's no replacement for actual experimentation, but I have so little time to get to the range, I really want to get everything right the first or second time.
I should mention, I will be using the glock OEM barrel, so leading is the big bad boogeyman and I'm just trying to shoot for cheap.
I will be working up using IMR 800X, and staying with this powder, so long as I can find more..

Why would you run it through the FCD if you knew it was going to swage it down? When it comes to most lead applications bigger is better. I would expect ypu to get leading from gas cutting but you may get lucky.

I found 800X to be to slow in the 9MM guns I have. Lots of unburned powder. That said 6 grains under my Lyman 356402 bullet gave me an avg vel of 1186 with a SD of 11 over my Chrony. OAL was 1.115 for my Hi-Power. Boolits sized .357.

I tried 800X in 38spl cases in my Rossi hoping the longer barrel would consume the powder. 5.9 gr under a Lyman 358477 boolit gave an avg vel of 1208 fps out of my Rossi with a SD of 16 and an extreme spread of 66 fps.

My advice would be to play with it and see how it shoots in your guns.

FYI I shoot a lot of IDPA using both the 9MM in my M&P Pro and 38spl using 4.2" Ruger GP-100. 4.1 gr of 231 runs my 124 gr Lyman 356402 bullet while 2.8 gr of Clays runs my 165 gr RCBS RN boolit in 38spl. Both loads are extremely accurate. The Ruger develops some leading due to constriction in the barrel. The Clays load runs very clean, an important attribute when it comes to shooting the revolver. 231 runs to dirty for my liking in my revolver loads for IDPA. The powder is excellent for the 9MM from my experience.

I apply a slight taper crimp on my 9MM boolits, just enough to remove the belling I applied during the loading process. I run around 10K rds a year through my 9MM guns without incident. For the 38spl I just want to remove the belling on the case. I size my 38spl boolits .358 and rely on friction on the case to hold the boolits. Again over the past three years of shooting competitions with the Ruger I have had nary a problem using this method. In both cases there can be seen a slight bulge in the case . The bulge has had no effect on loading rounds into the chamber using speed loaders or in the case of the semi auto via the magazine.

Take Care

Bob

[zubrato]

Thank you for that awesome post Bob! Sorry for my late reply, I've been working like a dog lately.
I read some guys on the net had no problems with the FCD, while others did. Since I used it a lot for my plated bullets, I figured I'd give it a shot and see if Im one of the problem guys, and I probably am since I did feel the carbide ring, but given the case itself swages down the boolit its probably multifactorial.
Due to running out of powder, I'll be using whatever I can get at the store, and if anything decent I'll grab 4 lbs at a time, everytime I work up a load for a caliber, I end up scratching my head at the store when I see they stopped carrying my powder..

So it looks like for the time being, its blue dot since I ran out of 800X for my plated loads. And then it may be green dot..

On a lighter note, I've purchased the 38SW expander plug and it looks like a winner! I haven't tried seating any dummy rounds and pulling them, however I can tell there's an immediate improvement in the way the cases look in regards to taper and inside diameter.

My question is: Can I use the crimping feature on the Lee seating die? I'll be using mixed brass, so I'm afraid of one case receiving too much crimp, and pressure spikes that may result in rapid dissassembly of my pistol, especially in a cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth.

As for the 38spl, when slugging the barrel, I think i did feel some constriction towards where the frame attaches to the barrel, and that concerns me. I'll be trying out the loads I work up in about a week, so I'll be back wiser and probably less concerned about a lot of these things.

[robertbank]

I haven't noticed a significant difference in 9mm cases that affected the crimping of rounds. I don't think I have changed my crimping dies setting for 9MM in the past five years at least. I use Dillon 9MM dies. Just set it so it removes the belling yoi applied early on and you should be good to go. If you are going to use the OEM Glock barrel just clean it after every shoot. Chor Boy 100% copper pads wrapped around a cleaning brush works the best for lead removal from my experience.

Shoot your .38spl with boolits sized .358 and see how you make out from a rest. If accuracy is as good as you feel you can shoot the carry on. If not, it may be time to try to find a solution. If you want good clean shooting try Clays under 158 gr lead bullets in your revolver. 2.8 gr is a very accurate load in my Ruger GP-100.

Take Care

Bob

[Walstr]

Greetings: I too am entering the 9mm boolit arena. I'm really fellin' the love in this fantastic forum, or maybe it's just the 9mm guys & gals.

My 2 boys are shooting 3-gun matches & enlisted me to investigate casting & loading for this application. They're using H&K and Glock 34 [grooved barrel]. My current crux is:

What's your experience with small pistol primer manuf. fitting various headstamp cases? To what degree do we segregate cases & relative to the primers that fit them? My suspicion arises from discovery years ago, that Winchester 12ga primers are .001" larger than Remington Premier pockets. This query is especially relevant for us today due to the lack of component availability.

Thanks much & work safe.

Wally

[robertbank]

Wally I load between 10K and 15K of 9MM per year. I haven't found any difference in any of the mainstream primers. I buy Federal SPP only because I shoot revolver in IDPA and Federal primers are easier to set off. I don't segregate cases. S&B cases have very tight primer pockets so I avoid these cases.

I shoot lead exclusively using the Lyman 356402 truncated cone 124gr boolit using 4.1 gr of Win 231/HP38. Load makes PF for IDPA and is very accurate. I use water quenched WW alloy. While I prefer Federal primers, as above, I have also used Win, Rem, and CI primers and have not noticed any difference in performance.

From my experience 231/HP38, Unique, Universal and HS 6 work well in 9MM. Powders with burn rates similar to these should work well.

Take Care

Bob

[AABEN]

When I cast my bullets I drop then in 3 gal of tap water when dry. I spray the with case lube them throw a sizer. Then Moly them. I have not had any trouble with them. 9 MM 38/357 40 cal 44 and 45 Acp.

[popper]

Started to reload for 3 XDs 9s and ran into a problem with half the rnds. Won't chamber. The ones that did shot fine, accurate, no leading. Finally found the problem is the tapered case. I was using a 38P Lyman expander to expand and bell. It's too long! Expands down to the web and causes the chambering problem. Now I run it halfway down & use the RCBS to bell. Problem solved. The 38P expands to the correct size, now if I can con my machinist into shortening it. Actually they are all CC or HD so I won't be loading that much for them.

[crabo]

Some of my manuals say I can go as high as 5.8 of Unique with a 120 grain TC boolit. This is 5.4 and it looks compressed. Is that a problem with Unique?

If I were to go to 5.8, it looks like it would be at the top of the case. I am looking to use this in my 9mm M&P and my 9mm AR.

[robertbank]

My Lyman manual list 5.3 as a maximum for Unique using their lead boolit. It would be a compressed charge for sure.

Bob

[MtGun44]

Compressed is not necessarily bad, but can be difficult to
seat the boolit properly if really compressed. Check multiple
books and the online data from Alliant to be sure what is
OK.

Bill

[knifeman85]

very good write up. Thank you

[220]

Thought I would read this post again, still having leading issues with my 9mm.
Typical 9mm leading starts just ahead of the chamber and works its way down the barrel the more shots I fire.
Don't have a mic but with dial and digital verniers as best I can slug it goes .3555-.356.
Have tried .356 and .358 boolits, don't have a .357 size die so have been working with what I have, both lead equally as bad.
Pulled some loaded boolits and found my problem, all pulled boolits measured .355 which brings up my next question.
What size expander plug should I buy, I see lymans 9mm M die is .353 probably a bit small for .356-.358 boolits, the 38 die is .356 to big for .356 although should be good with .358.
Would it be worth getting a .355 expander made?

[robertbank]

220 what gun do you have? What lube are you using and if you are using your own cast bullets what is your alloy? If you do cast your own bullets do you water quench them?

In most 9MM guns a .357 sized lead bullet properly lubed should not lead up a barrel. If you are using to soft an alloy they will. Are you using a Lee Factory crimp die?

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

My 9mm "combination" is as follows--.355" expander spud into R-P cases after tungsten-carbide resizing, slight trumpet flare at case mouth; 92/6/2 alloy bullets sized @ .357"/verified with 50/50 BW/alox lube; seating as a discrete step; only enough taper crimp to straighten the case mouth flare.

[220]

Gun is a Norinco 1911,
Loads I tried yesterday were 75/25 WW/pure with HiTek, leading was confined to the first inch of the barrel but I was doing some accuracy testing and inspecting the barrel after 10 shots and cleaning.
Have tried a few combinations, straight WW, various WW/pure ratios, 92/6/2 water quenched and air cooled with LLA, BW/alox and even tried some BPG lube I had.
Best results as far as accuracy holding up and not tumbling has been water quenched WW with LLA, seemed to reduce the amount of leading ahead of the chamber but I got leading along the full barrel length and tumbling after about 70 shots.
Looking at where the lead is and after measuring my pulled boolits and seeing even my .358 sized boolits are measuring .355 I think I have found my cause. Measured some sized cases and my die is sizing them to .350-.351, a fired case is about .359-.360 so I think I can run .358 without trouble. Just need to get an expander plug to open them up a touch. Currently just using the lee powder through die it only flares the very mouth of the case to make starting the boolits easy but the are obviously being swaged down on seating.

[robertbank]

It would seem your die is the problem. Measure your expander spud. It should be .355 as Al indicated. I am sure once you get that solved your leading should disappear.

As an aside I water quench all my 9MM boolits. I never see leading with any of my loads in any of my 9MM guns. Let us know how you make out.

Take Care

Bob

[Sgt Petro]

MtGun44,
I know this is an old post, but thanks again for sharing. Great info and read.

[wrenchman5]

The initial post and this thread are FANTASTIC. I just recently joined cast boolits because I intend to start loading 9mm this summer. After reading Bill's initial post and a large portion of this thread, I'm ready to get started. Thanks for so much great information. :)

[jimga]

Viht 3n37 works very well with 9mm, have used it for about 20 yrs... very clean powder, it cost more but is well worth it... I use the n320 for my wife's 380. I use n133, n135, n140 for my rifle needs.. every thing from a 204 thru to the Russian 7.62 X 54... so if you can find viht give it a try...
jim

[silverado]

Nice post, but I must say that the lee 105 grain swc is the only boolit that has EVER jammed in my beretta 92 and that was about 1 in 100 rounds if i remember correctly. I get great accuracy from the 120 tc boolit and definitely recommend it.

[6bg6ga]

MtGun44,

I recently purchased a S&W 669 9mm. I've never loaded 9mm before and have no 9mm molds. I do have a 125rn Magma bullet bolt which I have some sized to .357 can you recommend a load and length? I was thinking Unique 3.2gr with a OAL of 1.155 I have made some dummy rounds to see if they will feed and chamber and all seems good. What are your thoughts?

[6bg6ga]

Since no one cared to answer I test fired what I loaded. They worked fine.

[MtGun44]

Sorry - I don't really monitor this thread very closely. If you want to talk about it,
or ask a question - better to PM me. Well, if I keep my inbox cleaned out enough!

Can't recommend a load length for anything except Lee 105 SWC or Lee 120 TC as these
are the only boolits I have ever loaded in 9mm, I have also loaded a lot of jbullets.

You are all very welcome on the thread, glad it has helped. I am thinking about doing
one like it for .45 ACP, a cartridge where I have loaded probably above 250,000 rounds
and I do have a lot of experience helping folks get their ammo sorted out in IPSC
shooting over the last 35 years or so.

Bill

[robertbank]

Since no one cared to answer I test fired what I loaded. They worked fine.

I have posted this before so for some, bear with me. 6bg6ga to determine the OAL for any bullet for any pistol try this method:

1. Using a Veneer caliper measure the length of the bullet.
2. Remove the barrel from your gun and drop just the bullet into the barrel.
3. Measure from the base of the bullet to the point where a cartridge base would lay flush with the barrel hood.
4. Add the two measurements together.

You will then have the maximum length for the cartridge using the bullet you measured. Back off a few thousandths of an inch to allow for play in your press and you should be good to go. Check to see the cartridge will load in the magazine.

The OAL length of a cartridge varies from one bullet to the next that weigh the same can vary depending on the shape of bullet. It won't vary much but it can be enough to cause problems with seating in the chamber.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

I have posted this before so for some, bear with me. 6bg6ga to determine the OAL for any bullet for any pistol try this method:

1. Using a Veneer caliper measure the length of the bullet.
2. Remove the barrel from your gun and drop just the bullet into the barrel.
3. Measure from the base of the bullet to the point where a cartridge base would lay flush with the barrel hood.
4. Add the two measurements together.

You will then have the maximum length for the cartridge using the bullet you measured. Back off a few thousandths of an inch to allow for play in your press and you should be good to go. Check to see the cartridge will load in the magazine.

The OAL length of a cartridge varies from one bullet to the next that weigh the same can vary depending on the shape of bullet. It won't vary much but it can be enough to cause problems with seating in the chamber.

Take Care

Bob

I like that idea. It should work for any boolit or bullet out there.

[pakmc]

I slugged the bore and it measured .355. I used a .360 bullet from a 38-200 webley. my resizing die is for Lee and it is .356. I put a .356 bullet in a resized case and it came back out at .356. I took all the taper crimp off and used just a straight wall case, I think the inside of the case measured about .350. the .153 gr. bullets where accurate this time. using 2.9 gr's of clean shot.(it's an overseas powder). All shooting was done with a CZ75B and a new steel frame witness with with 4.2 inch barrels(or so) the 124's with 3.5 and 4 gr's of clean shot where not accurate with these two guns. but I had my 75D with me(3.5 inch barrel) the 124's with 3.5 gr's of CS where accurate. what I'm thinking is the shorter barrel kept the muzzel Vel. down to where the bullets/and or gun liked it. next time I"ll load the minum load of CS behind the 124br bullet . I should be fairly close to what something likes. Thank you Mtgun44 for you input I just needed to make a few litttle addjustments and it looks like it's good now. there where no FTF's or FTE's with any of these loads.

[MtGun44]

The most recurring themes seem to be:
1) you need a .357 or larger boolit in most 9mms
2) lots of dies have expanders that are too small for boolits (probably just fine with
jacketed projectiles), so pulling a loaded boolit to see what the diam is after seating
is a critical step. A lot of nice .357/.358 boolits wind up at .355 after seating. OOPS!

Good quality lube is also important, 9mm is not the place to be working with your
never-tested before homebrew lube, at least until you have it working with a known
good lube. Then you can experiment as you wish and will have a baseline to compare
your results to.

Good luck to all with the 9mm, happy to help, and "You're Welcome" for all the 'Thank you's.
Happy to share info, that is what the site is for. Pass it on, 9mm is a real problem child for
many folks and they need a guide to help.

Bill

[robertbank]

Bill you maybe dealing with a very small base if info. If the majority of 9MM required a .357 or larger bullet accuracy with .355 jacketed would be atrocious. It isn`t. I would think .357 would be the largest anyone would have to go unless you are dealing with a WW11 or older gun from occupied Europe. I recently reduced my diameter to .356 in my guns and have found no difference in accuracy - CZ 75`s, M&P`s, STI and Tanfoglio.

Take Care

Bob

[Houlton]

I had that problem with my Lee mold but never with my 124 RCBS.

[paul h]

So does anybody make a expander for the Dillon that will extend deeper into the case? The expander/powder funnel only extends a bit over 1/8" and when I seat my 120 gr cast bullets over the 1/2 the rounds get "lumpy" and won't go all the way into my chamber gauge.

[Whistler]

Relevant to the topic, some repetition and some additional info (originally posted in the Cast Bullets Facebook group):


The main culprit with 9x19 mm is that the case swages the bullet.
This has several causes and effects. 9mm has...
1. Tight chambers.
2. Large bores.
3. Thick brass.
4. Small bullet drops.
5. Small expander dies.

The way to get 9mm to work is to use brass with thin walls. G.F.L (Fiocchi), Winchester and Geco are known for this. (CBC (Magtech) and S&B are known for thick walls) With thin brass, use an expander die that opens the case to .357. Usually this works with a Lyman M-die with a .38 S&W plug. The .357 Mag expanders usually don't reach down far enough and are too long to flare the case mouth, though they will expand just fine.

Take into account that many 9mm molds drop at .356. This will make the bullet useless for most 9mm work. You can powdercoat to gain 1-2 thousands.

Then we have the expanders. They are .353 in the base and .356 in the top. If you have a .357 bore that needs .358 bullets and put a .358 bullet in a case that has been expanded to .356, chances are likely that the brass will swage the bullet to .356, causing gas leaks.

Now say that you use a .357 expander. With most brass this will go fine when you put the empty case in a chamber gauge. However, when you seat a .358 bullet inside and crimp the case mouth, the brass will bulge right where the base of the bullet is. This will cause the cartridge to not chamber. Thus the need for thin brass.

If you like to use heavy bullets like 140-160gn for competition where there is power factor involved, you either need a very good brand of brass with thin walls that allows the longer bullet to be seated deep, or you need a chamber with a looooong throat that lets you have a long OAL.

Another thing to take into account is that 9mm is not a straight walled cartridge. It is tapered. The brass also gets thicker the lower to the base you get, so the inside is reverse tapered, thus getting narrower. This is why many, many, many 9mm bullet designs have a bevel base!

[robertbank]

So does anybody make a expander for the Dillon that will extend deeper into the case? The expander/powder funnel only extends a bit over 1/8" and when I seat my 120 gr cast bullets over the 1/2 the rounds get "lumpy" and won't go all the way into my chamber gauge.

Just one question while the cartridges won't chamber in your chamber gauge will they chamber in your gun? I have seen cases where cartridges would not chamber in a chamber gauge but worked fine in my guns.

Take care

Bob

[MtGun44]

paul-h I know that post is pretty old, but for you and anyone else
-adjust the Dillon powder measure body mount die downward to let the
expander go deeper into the case. This is just a setup issue with your machine, that
depth is fully adjustable. Should be expanding the case mouth about .005-.0010 flare,
too, which is removed by the taper crimp at the last stage.

Bill

[Jeffjmr]

I go through a similar process, but was wondering if you think my chamber vs. loaded brass procedure is easier, at least for finding the largest usable loaded round diameter:

If you have a full pin gauge set; I insert increasing sizes of pin gauges into the chamber of the removed barrel until I find the narrowest diameter of the chamber, which is determined by the largest pin that will reach the chamber end. My P226 with a Storm Lake barrel for example will eat a .380- pin but not quite a .381- pin. My brass is .0092 thick at the mouth so:
.380 -.0184 =.3616 is max bullet diameter with light TC. My bore measures .347 lands and .3550 at grooves, so I am good to go with a .356 to .3575 boolit. I use boolits sized to .357 which is nice because my S&W 66 can use that size too. No leading.

Jeff

[Shumkles]

Nice post. I am a 9mm shooter and the post and follow ups are very useful.

[northernlead]

Perfect timing,thank you

[Crash_Corrigan]

I also had problems with gas leakage and the gun got really dirty after only 30-40 rounds in my Browning Hi-Power. I upped the powder charge of American Select carefully and found the sweet spot where every round would chamber and whalla no more sooty cases and a ended up with a clean gun that would fire hundreds of rounds without cleaning. The boolit was cast .361 and sized to .3575 with a gentle taper crimp...NO LEE FCD used.

[Dusty Bannister]

Thank you Bill for all your efforts in helping folks get off on the correct methods for successful cast bullet reloading and fitting in 9MM. I am taking the liberty of adding a method of finding out the cartridge OAL that requires a minimum of math, and simple items one might already have on hand. This is an old and previously common method, but seems to have fallen from use.

Cleaning rod/dowel method of finding cartridge OAL

This is what I use for my guns to determine the max OAL and this eliminates any question of the crimp, incorrect case prep, or other operator induced error.

This method works well on rifles and single shot pistols as well as Semi-autos. You can use a flat tipped cleaning rod, or flat tipped dowel rod. You will also need a sharp pointed pencil, a short dowel and a bullet sized but clean, of the type you are going to load.

For Rifles
Make sure the chamber is empty. Close the bolt, and be sure the firing pin is retracted into the bolt. Insert the dowel or cleaning rod and hold it against the face of the bolt. Mark the rod at the face of the muzzle. Remove rod, open bolt and remove it from the action. Insert the bullet into the breech and hold it snug into the rifling. While in that position insert the dowel or rod again, and with it firm against the nose of the bullet, mark the rod at the face of the muzzle.

The distance between the center of those two marks is the max cartridge OAL for that rifle, with that bullet sized to that diameter.

For Semi-autos
Remove the barrel from the slide and make sure it is clean and free of leading or other debris in the barrel and chamber. The dowel or cleaning rod needs to be longer than the barrel. Hold the barrel, muzzle up, and place the barrel hood on a flat surface like a table top. Insert the dowel or rod from the muzzle and mark the rod exactly flush with the muzzle. Remove the rod and insert the bullet you intend to use into the chamber and lightly press and hold it in place with the short dowel. Place the assy muzzle up on the flat surface. Insert the rod/dowel into the muzzle so it rests on the nose of the bullet and again mark the rod exactly flush with the muzzle. Remove and set the barrel aside. The distance on the center of the two lines is the cartridge OAL. Seat a dummy round to this length, or slightly shorter and begin to apply the taper crimp until the dummy passes the plunk test. This is the optimim cartridge OAL length for this bullet in this gun.

You may need to adjust the seater to shorten the OAL if this does not feed from the magazine, but generally this will be a great fit. Remember, if you seat and crimp in one step, you might force a slight ridge ahead of the case mouth and that will screw up your seating.

Caution! Some nose profiles, especially if powder coated, are contacting the lands at a shorter OAL than the same bullet that is sized and lubed. Seating shorter will build pressures higher than might be expected. Adjust your loads to be safe.
Dusty

[MT Gianni]

I was rereading some articles on the parent page and thought this was a good addition here.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/9mm_reloading.htm

[nitro-express]

I have avoided loading for the 9mm Luger for years. My first experience app 40 years ago was less than successful so I capitulated and bought factory.

Fast forward to today, we are doing a bit more 9mm Luger shooting, and for the most part factory ammo has been our schtick. One recent foray into some cast loads was met with a heap of issues, the biggest being horrible leading.

Yes, a Browning Hi-Power with a groove diameter of 358, and 355 cast bullets. A couple of mags and I was done, back to finding ammo on sale.

Then the "got bit by the carbine" thing happened, and to be practical, for use on the ranch, a HP bullet was probably in order. Research led me to the Federal Independence HP, but "out of stock" sort of derailed that.

However, I did have a stash of 125 Remington HP 357 bullets (jacketed boolits) and decided to give those a test drive, for "proof of concept".

After a bit of "experimenting", substituting a longer larger diameter powder through expander, yes, LEE dies, I was able to get the bullet to seat properly. As far as OAL, I believe I used the WAG method and came up with 1.09". Crimping with the LEE Factory Crimp die was a bit of an eye opener. I felt a bit of resistance on that stage, the tapered case was bulged a bit more than the spec used for the LEE FCD. The base of the bullet was swaged a bit, but as this was a proof of concept experiment, it was off to test expansion. We used a bag full of shredded paper and water to initiate expansion, and a large block of snow for recovery. I've found that snow will stop a bullet or boolit without damaging it.

Testing did confirm proof of concept.

https://i.imgur.com/mVdoGQi.jpg

Since the initial proof of concept experimenting I've transferred my dies to a Dillon 550. In addition I was able to procure 200 Speer 3983 100 gr HP bullets. Even though they are a bit smaller in dia, they still bulge the case a wee bit, which the LEE FCD irons out. If I continue down this path, I want to iron out some of those issues, hence me landing on this forum.

I've skimmed this post, and I intend on reading it a bit more in depth to gain a bit more insight into the nuances of loading for the 9mm Luger.

Thanks for the great forum, and I apologise for corrupting the topic with jacketed.

[robertbank]

One issue I ran into this summer that may be of interest involved a series of bulged cases. I use a Dillon 550 for loading. I load about 10K 9MM rounds per year. What I found I was not always inserting the bullet as vertical as I should prior to the case entering the bullet seating die. With some cases, not all, this created a bulge on one side of the case which was fatal for functioning. I straightened out the cases by running through the sizing die without the decapping pin. This is essentially what a FCD does. IDPA accuracy requirements were sti;; met so life is good. I now pay more attention when inserting the bullet into the top of the case. I have enough 9MM cases to last me a lifetime and then some, I now also bell out to the maximum which assists the insertion of the bullet into the case. By maximum I mean as large as the seating die will accept.

All hte best guys in the New Year. I won;t have to improve much to better 2020. Be safe and wear a mask.

Take Care

Bob

[kelli]

The wealth of practical knowledge on this board has not yet ceased to amaze me

[Norske]

Here's something I learned from a black powder muzzle loader shooting neighbor. Use pure lead (soft) for slugging a barrel. He used fishing egg sinkers. His short bullet starter made it easier. The sinker needs to be a little larger than the groove diameter, so buy a variety pack. It's a lot easier than using a boolit of a harder alloy.

[robertbank]

nitro-express Have you tried just shooting the cartridges with the bulge intact? Of the thousands of rounds I have shoot over the years through a variety of 9MM pistols the slight bulge you get has never presented a problem using cast of jacketed bullets. Not one. I get the same type of bulge loading 38spl, .357mag, 4o S%W, 44 Mag and 45 Colt.

The cases I address in post 94 above occur when one side of the case is bulged. This is caused by not seating the bullet properly on my part.

Take Care

Bob

[Bigslug]

My father and I puzzled the common too-small/leading issues when we started casting for 9mm in earnest about 1-2 years ago. A few things we've discovered that might add to our sum of human knowledge:

1. We've started using a Lee .38 S&W die set (which nominally sets that round up for a .360" bullet) for the sizing and flaring. These dies are cheap and seem to solve the case-swage problem easily. Final seating done with Dillon dies.

2. Barrel dimensions for the 9x19 have been .346" bore and .356" groove on most of what I have checked. Had a Springfield with a .355" groove and something else (the Hungarian High Power clone maybe) with a .347" bore, but the short version is that YOU WANT A .357" BOOLIT AT MINIMUM!.

3. We are using the NOE/Ranch Dog 135 grain tumble lube bullet, and got it to work acceptably with Ben's Liquid Lube in everything but my Gen 5 / Marksman Barrel Glock 17, so we thought we'd focus the efforts on solving that problem before starting mass production.

3.1. I needed to thin my White Label Lube 45/45/10 with mineral spirits/paint thinner, but then applied and regularly swirled the bullets around on a parchment sheet as it dried. I'm a little dubious of the "barely visible film" school of thin tumble lubing as that has not really worked terribly well for me, so my practice this time was to keep the stiffening lube moving until it "takes shelter" and builds up in the TL bands. The Johnson's Paste Wax base of 45/45/10 seems to make for a natural binder to the Alox - at least that's my current interpretation of the visible data.

4. Boolits are getting cast out of a wheel weight + 2% tin equivalent and air cooled. This first test batch's post-casting ingots testing at 13BHN. They are dropping out of the mold at .357"

We did a batch of three different loads of Bullseye for the chronograph, shot an initial ten shot string through the Glock 17 Gen 5, paused to check for catastrophic fouling, then followed with a 20 shot string - putting all 30 on paper at 25 yards.

RESULTS:

3.5 grains Bullseye
Hi: 1023fps
Low: 974 fps
Spread: 49fps
Average: 986 fps
Standard deviation: 10 fps
Bore condition: 1 or 2 small bits of lead that pushed out with a dry patch on a jag. 2-3 passes with a dry bronze brush removed any additional lube streaking.
Brass condition: comfortable load

3.7 grains Bullseye
High: 1055 fps
Low: 1014 fps
Spread: 41 fps
Average: 1031 fps
S.D.: 10 fps
Bore condition: slightly more lead flakes than with 3.5gr load, but cleaned up just as easily.
Brass condition: slight outward puckering of primers around firing pin indentation.

3.9 grains Bullseye
High: 1102 fps
Low: 1046 fps
Spread: 56 fps
Average: 1070 fps
S.D.: 12 fps
Bore condition: no lead on dry patch; bore cleaned easily with dry bronze brush. Slight antimony wash blasted onto the top of the Streamlight flashlight below the muzzle.
Brass condition: slightly greater outward primer puckering than with the 3.7 grain load, but edges of primers still rounded. Likely a safe load for THIS gun, but Dad's .355" Springfield 1911 barrel has shown a tendency to spike higher pressures, so we will probably not go this hot for the mass production run.

Accuracy for all was far better than I can shoot a pistol off a bench. Discounting known pilot error, probably a sub-3" combination at 25 yards - in all honesty probably better. Will have a better feel when I run it in the Ruger carbine.

Despite the slightly greater leading, the middle load generated the best numbers and will be what we produce. I think the key to cleaning that up will be perfecting the tumble lube technique and possibly fiddling with the alloy hardness slightly. I'm guessing a little softer may obturate and seal better. A harder alloy may have some benefit depending on your pressure curve. We initially played with very hard boolits to get around the case-swaging problem, but once we cracked that with the slightly larger expansion of the .38 S&W dies, there does not seem to be a need for taking the full water-quenched, rifle alloy road.

Hope those are some useful pins in the roadmap. :drinks:

[robertbank]

Bigslug you might try 231 or Unique in your 9MM. I have found the slightly slower powders work a bit better than Bullseye. I agree with your assessment of using .357 sized lead bullets. I have had excellent results in all my 9MM pistols sizing my bullets .357. I use WW alloy water quenched from the mold. I have not found the need to add tin to the alloy. I do add tin to aid bullet s fill out in some of my rifle bullets, There again only to aid in mold fill out. Water quenched bullets from the mold seem to the need for a harder bullet. I don't water quench 38spl or 45 acp and 45Colt bullets as they are low pressure cartridge's.

Sizing the bullet .357 causes a bit of a bulge in the case. I shoot over 7,000 9MM rds a year and load for one of my friends who goes through about 5,000 rds practicing and shooting local competitions in IPSC and IDPA. The bulge you get has had zero affect on feeding in at least 10 different 9MM pistols we own. I cannot remember the last time I had a jam either in practice or competition outside of the time I found myself not paying attention as to when I was seating the bullets.

I use, for the most part 125 gr lead and FMJ bullets. Lead for practice and jacketed for major events. Some IDPA stages are not smoke friendly. LOL. I tested 147 gr bullets in my guns. They work well and in theory the recoil impulse ought to be less at the same power factor (Vel*Bullet weight/1000). I guess in theory the recoil impulse is less. I can't say I feel the difference nor see a lessoning of gun rise when using the heavier bullet. Some do but I don't.

Take Care

Bob

[Conditor22]

My best groups were with HS-6, W231/HP-38, BE & GREEN DOT under the Lee 356-125 2R powdercoated sized .358/.359 (depending on the gun)

European 9MM's require even bigger boolits than that, they slug out at .358 & .3585

[robertbank]

My best groups were with HS-6, W231/HP-38, BE & GREEN DOT under the Lee 356-125 2R powdercoated sized .358/.359 (depending on the gun)

European 9MM's require even bigger boolits than that, they slug out at .358 & .3585

Not all European 9MM's. CZ, Tanfoglio. newer FN's and Walther are not oversized. I think you will find the over sized pistols in pre-WW11 pistols. Even the Norinco pistols from China in 9MM are not oversized as you suggest. Your experiences may well be different than mine.

Take Care

Bob

[Bigslug]

Bigslug you might try 231 or Unique in your 9MM. I have found the slightly slower powders work a bit better than Bullseye.

Bob, your whole post is good stuff. Given that we seem to be playing from opposite ends of the bullet weight and application spectrum, a comparison of notes might be beneficial for the collective brain trust.

Undoubtedly, burn rate is one of those "your mileage may vary" topics. Unique has been one of those "lots of unburned powder left behind" propellants for me in auto pistol calibers (230gr .45 mostly), and I have come to vastly prefer the faster stuff for cleanliness. In this instance I was thinking "air cooled wheelweight (semi-soft) and fast powder for good base sealing". W231 did well for me in .45 when I briefly experimented with a pound of it. At any rate, the Bullseye has the saving grace of being on hand in quantity, is giving me velocity S.D.'s that I'd be happy with for long range rifle ammo, the interior of the gun was clean after 90 test rounds, and the leading experienced was so slight, I think I'll be "in the zone" after minor tweaking.


I agree with your assessment of using .357 sized lead bullets. I have had excellent results in all my 9MM pistols sizing my bullets .357. . . .Sizing the bullet .357 causes a bit of a bulge in the case. . . The bulge you get has had zero affect on feeding in at least 10 different 9MM pistols we own. I cannot remember the last time I had a jam either in practice or competition outside of the time I found myself not paying attention as to when I was seating the bullets.

Probably should have mentioned - I'm using Winchester cases. Not seeing this bulge - possibly a factor of the case, or maybe my use of the .38 S&W sizing apparatus? I did have a couple of failures to go fully into battery in yesterday's testing, but I've seen this a zillion times before - simply a matter of needing a little more taper crimp - - easily dealt with as we transition from the single-stage press prototypes to the progressive production phase.


I use WW alloy water quenched from the mold. I have not found the need to add tin to the alloy. I do add tin to aid bullet s fill out in some of my rifle bullets, There again only to aid in mold fill out. Water quenched bullets from the mold seem to the need for a harder bullet. I don't water quench 38spl or 45 acp and 45Colt bullets as they are low pressure cartridge's.

Good intel to chew on. Production alloy is either going to be known wheel weight, "mystery metal" that hardness tests in that 12-BHN (ish) range that makes me call it wheel weight, or known XRF-tested range scrap or reclaimed shot mixed with Superhard and tin to "create" wheel weight. My own experience tells me not to be shy with the use of tin. Time being money, I'd rather have good fillout easy and fast than fight through a bunch of reject bullets to get it. As for water quenching to increase the hardness and decrease the malleability, that's still a topic of some puzzling. The G5 Glock didn't like it (leading/vapor deposits on the flashlight bezel), but everything else seemed to do OK with it. Since the bore diameters on that gun are effectively the same as everything else, I can only conclude it's a rifling profile thing and/or an issue with the previous lube (thin BLL vs the current thicker application of 45/45/10).


I use, for the most part 125 gr lead and FMJ bullets. Lead for practice and jacketed for major events. Some IDPA stages are not smoke friendly. LOL. I tested 147 gr bullets in my guns. They work well and in theory the recoil impulse ought to be less at the same power factor (Vel*Bullet weight/1000). I guess in theory the recoil impulse is less. I can't say I feel the difference nor see a lessoning of gun rise when using the heavier bullet. Some do but I don't.

In my case, I'm a heavy-for-caliber / flat point guy for reasons of either kinetic targets or consistency of deep penetration of 4-legged meaty targets that the extra mass provides. The jacketed "work" ammo I associate with daily is either 147 grain hollowpoint or the non-expanding training equivalent at right around 1000 fps. Since there isn't likely to be any expansion with the 135 grain flat point Ranch Dog, the logic is there will still be plenty of penetration without the extra little bit of weight (a pointier 147 grain FMJ won't stop inside of nine 1-gallon milk jugs/six feet of water). The happy coincidence seems to be that both are shooting to the same point of aim. I'm also digging the subsonic aspect because, in my Ruger carbine, the 16" barrel is effectively it's own expansion chamber in a state where I can't play with suppressors for real.:happy dance:

The light & fast vs. heavy & slow ends of the 9mm envelope and the resulting differences in pressure are worth considering for alloy selection, noise, and usefulness in energizing a muzzle break for those who choose to run one. Learning how to run a clean bore at both extremes would be effort well spent.

(And thanks to the mods that stickied this!)

[John Guedry]

Thank you sir for this post. While not a new reloader I am new to 9mm. I am going back and reading the whole over. Thanks again.

[robertbank]

Bigslug thanks for your post. Alliant powders in this part of Canada are rarer than hens teeth. That probably accounts for my drift away from same and into the mid range burn rates for pistol applications. For example I LOVE Clays for my 38spl loads. I enjoy shooting IDPA Stock Revolver Division. Clays shoots about as clean as any powder I have run into for revolvers using lead bullets. Bullseye would be right there as well. 231 is dirty in the 38spl. I use that powder because I have a lot of it on hand and right now. If it were otherwise Clays would be my first choice for the 38spl using 158gr RN bullets in competition. Powders and primers are absent from a lot of shops and those that do have powder place more value on them than I am willing to pay right now. I just bought 5,000 primers marketed by "Cam-Pro". I suspect they are re-badged Russian primers. I'll know when they arrive.

Your comment regarding the bulge I get is as you suggest a function of the sizing dies. You, using the 38S&W plug are expanding the cases more than I am using the Dillons/Lee sizing dies. I like the Dillon dies as they have generous mouths for accepting lead bullets. I forget why I stuck my Lee sizing die in my 550. Both size the cases about the same and I get that bulge from using both when loading my bullets. The bulge has NO effect on feeding in any of my 9MM pistols. Sizing the cases smaller ensures a tight friction fit for both lead and jacketed bullets. It may well affect how the powder is consumed given the slightly more resistance a tight fit cause. I have never experienced unburned powder using 231 under 125 or 147 gr bullets in the 9MM.

Some of the competitors in IPSC are now using 156gr bullets in there 9MM chasing the holy grail of little or no recoil to contend with via light powder charges under heavy bullets to achieve 125 power factor (Vel x Bullet weight/1000). I am not going down that road which leads to lighter recoil springs, the odd jam and questionable accuracy. To old to bother. I am used to how my guns run and enjoy excellent accuracy off the bench which translates into better accuracy in theory by me. :>).

The hobby of reloading offers us so many enjoyable variables to contend with. Re;oading and casting os somewhat like a tree with many branch's none of which are wrong. The nice part is most of the work has been done by folks who came before us. The ability to read and comprehend is the variable in most of the more contentious threads you run into.

Summer has arrived in the North West, life is good.

Take Care

Bob

[Bigslug]

Your comment regarding the bulge I get is as you suggest a function of the sizing dies. You, using the 38S&W plug are expanding the cases more than I am using the Dillons/Lee sizing dies.

I would also state here that there is a definite balance in setting up with the .38 S&W dies - run the plug too deep and your bullet will fall past your intended seating depth, and that's no good. The goal is to flare out enough so that you aren't swaging your bullets below intended diameter, so a happy medium must be sought.



. . .I like the Dillon dies as they have generous mouths for accepting lead bullets. I forget why I stuck my Lee sizing die in my 550. Both size the cases about the same and I get that bulge from using both when loading my bullets. The bulge has NO effect on feeding in any of my 9MM pistols.

It's worth calling the reader's attention to the fact that the 9mm is NOT a straight-walled case; it tapers significantly from a nominal .394" at the case head down to .380 at the mouth, and the chamber is tapered accordingly to match. Folks more mathematically inclined than I can puzzle over how that translates to operating with slugs fatter than the standard jacketed, but it's a good thing to know.


Some of the competitors in IPSC are now using 156gr bullets in there 9MM. . .

Now I find that VERY interesting. . . A couple years back, I read Sixguns by Keith for the first time. In it, Elmer mentions that friends of his were using his .38 Special 160 grain hollowpoint bullet with good success on small game drops too small a diameter bullet for my .357 Magin the 9mm. It was not 100% clear from the text, but one infers that he was talking about the hollow-pointed 358429. Wondering if anyone is doing this today, which would be interesting in that Keith's cronies would have created a 9mm version of the "FBI Load" a couple of decades before it was ever a thing in the .38. At any rate, if the concept DID work, and one had one of those pesky "drops too small for my .357 Magnum" Lyman molds with the undersized front driving band, a trip to Hollowpointmold for use in one's 9mm's might give it a new lease on life.

At any rate, today was a good day:

284839

284840

Knocked out about 35 pounds of them this morning. Arm is sore, but I'm smiling anyway.:D

[robertbank]

Bigslug as to the taper shape of the 9MM I took my calipers out the other day and set them at .380. I then took a new factory Winchester round and slid the caliper dpwn the cartridge. The caliper stopped mid way down the cartridge. I tested a Reminton factory round and found the same thing. SAMMI is SAMMI but I think in some respects it is more of a suggestion than something written in stone....oh oh Vegas just tied their series... it's a Canadian thing sorry folks but there are somethings more important than...well life itself.

Take Care

Bob

[Bigslug]

VICTORY!!!

I left Pop's place after the Sunday casting marathon and he attended to the Lube Job on the Ranch Dog 357-135 with the traditional thin coating of White Label 45/45/10. I had to go back and dog sit for a couple hours this morning so generated a test batch of 200 on the XL650:

284983

Lee .38 Auto/.38 S&W sizer/decapper in station #1; usual Dillon hardware for the rest. Set the bullet down to cover the last TL groove and ran the TC die until the mouth miked out at .380". 3.7 grains of Bullseye at 1030fps

50 rounds through the Gen 5 G17 ("Marksman" barrel) - Dry patch on jag took out soot and maybe some microscopic lead flakes, leaving some lube streaking behind. Less than 5 passes with a bronze brush completed the job

50 rounds through Glock 48 ("Marksman" barrel) - pretty much same result. Maybe cleaned a little easier.

50 rounds through Glock 26 (old school polygonal barrel). Even smaller lead flakes on the dry patch - -which rendered the bore completely clean to the eye with a few passes.

38 rounds through Ruger PC Carbine - If you'd told me it hadn't been fired, I'd have believed you. Tight patch got a few TINY flakes. No antimony deposits on the baffles of the MCarbo muzzle brake I have on it.

Seems to act like a really accurate load as well, though that was not the focus of the day.

SCIENCE OVER! Let the mass-production begin! [smilie=w:

[mainiac]

This is intresting,considering that my latest pet is a sig210a,,
Been loading and shooting for 35 yrs,,and just stumbled onto the fact that the 9,,is splendid,and extremely accurate