Match loading the 45 ACP

[Char-Gar]

The younger shooters are not familiar with Kent Bellah. Back in the day, he was a real guru and published a handloading column in Guns magazine. He knew his stuff. During the hay days of Bullseye match pistol shooting he published an article on loading the 45 ACP for match accuracy. From September 1957 issues I have lifted this for you benefit.

"Cases should be of the same make and lot for match accuracy. Case length variation can cause inaccuracy due to erratic ignition. The maximum gauge length is .898", but they mike from .888" to .907". The exact length isn't so important but a uniform length certainly is, and we can dd much to improve the factory product. I trim to .895" which catches most cases in a lot. Shorter cases are discarded. Using a good trimmer will hold variation to within .001".

From time to time we get questions here about trimming the 45 ACP case. I thought this might be helpful to some.

[gray wolf]

Charger, this one may go for 5 or 6 pages.
Once we define match accuracy, lets see what the folks think is the Minimum and maximum effort they need to put into it.
Plate match ?,-- one handed bulls eye shooting ?,---so on, so on------
My own thinking is, the more you put into building the round the better the aggregate
results will be.
I think the real winners do everything possible to make the very best ammo they can.
Trimming 45 ACP cases is a wast of time for casual plinking and shooting.
But for a match that was scored from hits in the X ring I think it would help.
But then again many other things would have to be done also to ensure you got the most out of your cartridge.
I can't Waite for the answers to roll in.

[Char-Gar]

In 1957 when Kent Bellah wrote the piece, the only "match" shooting with the 45 ACP was one handed Bullseye matches. This was long before any of the games now, that are referred to as matches. Allot of the games now are speed events and don't require the ultimate accuracy of the old Bullseye match.

I shot Bullsye back in the day and folks were go to any length to have the best and most accurate ammo they could. The difference between winning and loosing could be a hair's breath. So my understand of accuracy has been formed in this context. I have to do a reality check ever now and again to remember others may hold accuracy to mean something less or different.

Every week I shoot in a 22 handgun falling plate match. A stock Ruger with a decent trigger and Chinese red dot sight shooting bulk Mart-Mart 22 ammo will compete against a $3,000 race gun and $10.00 a box Eley ammo. It is the shooter that decides who takes home the money. In a Bulleye match these pistols would only get you last place.

[gray wolf]

Yes some things have changed.
For myself I still try to load the best ammo I can.
I think each shooting discipline requires a different shooting approach,
but we can still use the best ammo we can make.
this is a question that was ask on another forum
from someone who had all the equipment to reload pistol bullets.
Hello folks,
I had the barrel out of my pistol the other day and just for kicks I thought I would drop a bullet down the barrel. To my surprise it got stuck in the barrel, I had to push it out.
Did I get the wrong bullets? or does the barrel squeeze it down ?.
COME ON--this just goes to show how much people don't know, but still want to play with things that go boom.

[ole 5 hole group]

I wasn't shooting 2700 in the 1950's, as I started in the late 60's. Back then a damn good shooter could break 2600 more often than not. I actually shot with and against a few of those pisterlos and most used factory match on match day and those that reloaded their own that I knew personally, didn't pay much attention to the brass.

We didn't trim or separate cases by brand or lot. We cast our own wadcutters in H&G molds using WW & used just enough bullseye powder to work the action. Most of us discovered that once you put in enough time on the line we never dropped a point at the 25 yard line and the only reason we ever lost a match was because we didn't put enough of our excellent reloaded bullets into the 10 ring at 50 yards.

Not saying that Kent’s method of reloading isn’t beneficial, as I’ve never trimmed 45 brass – so I’ll leave it to those that have to tell us if they saw a difference in their agg.

[Dale53]

When Kent Bellah wrote that article, a lot was yet to be learned about the 1911.

I have had access to a Ransom Rest for many years and have used it. I discovered to my satisfaction that most .45 ACP cases were below minimum length. I also discovered, when using cast bullets, to headspace on the bullet and case length became irrelevant. I early on started taper crimping at .470" and use the barrel of my match 1911's to determine proper seating depth (loaded round flush with the barrel hood).

I had contacts at Camp Perry in the Sixties and Seventies with the Military Armorers and they taught me a LOT. I listened...

FWIW
Dale53

[casterofboolits]

I didn't start loading the 45 ACP until 1974 and I must have read similar articles. I purchased RCBS dies, a RCBS trim die and 500 Winchester cases.

None of the Winchester cases were long enough to be trimmed, so the trim die still sits on the shelf unused.

I weighed each powder charge by scale. cut TP into one inch squares and seated the TP over a charge of Bullseye with the eraser end of a #2 pencil, weighed and sorted the cast boolits I bought for $1.99 a 100. CCI primers were $.49 a hundred and Bullseye was $2.99 a pound.

Then, I started IPSC and all that went out the window! IPSC got me into casting big time.

[Dale53]

casterofbullits;
I'll bet I know where you shot IPSC![smilie=l:

Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive tested my acp ammo using matching head stamped trimmed brass against mixed untrimmed brass off the bench and will say this. If theres a differnce in accuracy in my guns its so small as to not be noticed. Ive shot ppc and bullseye with 1911s using mixed headstamped brass and have a few trophys to prove they do just fine. If we were talking rilfe bench rest shoot where .001 of an inch meant something maybe then. But bottom line is your better off using the time you trim and sort cases to shoot a couple more practice rounds. that will increase your scores much more. Now if you talking pistol cases for rounds that need to be roll crimped thats another issure and they do need to be the same lenght.

[subsonic]

but bottom line is your better off using the time you trim and sort cases to shoot a couple more practice rounds. That will increase your scores much more.

+1000

[casterofboolits]

casterofbullits;
I'll bet I know where you shot IPSC![smilie=l:

Dale53

That would be a sucker bet! :bigsmyl2: But, that's where I started shooting regular IPSC matches.

We still have to do lunch, I've been confined to the house for months due to a painful health problem involving a proctoligist. :shock: :oops:

Cleared up now, so I will contact you soon.

[bhn22]

So many people lose sight of the fact that "match" doesn't just mean a competition. It also means "the same". I have competition ammo that's not match grade, some competitions just don't require that much attention to detail.

[MtGun44]

You guys ever shoot at TargetWorld? IIRC, it was in Cinncinnatti. Two friends and I did
a road trip to and IPSC match there. We decided we could put on a better match and we
founded on of our local IPSC clubs after we got back.

Bill

[Dale53]

casterofbullits;
Sorry to hear of your problems. It's Hell getting old, isn't it? Give me a call and we'll DO IT!

MtGun44;
Yeah, I shot at Target World "back in the day". We had some pretty dern good matches there. The Winter Nationals were held there one time. It was a Good match with Bill Wilson and other celebrated shooters there. Bill had just returned from the International Match in South Africa where Ross Seyfried took all of the marbles. Bill is one of the good guys - I have been happy to have been witness to his business success.

Dale53

[Piedmont]

I got out the caliper one day and started measuring mixed .45 ACP brass and not a single one was even .898", the trim to length. This was sometime in the last 15 years, though, not back in the 1950s.

Also, just to be contrary, Charles Petty, who writes for Handloader, loves testing stuff like this and fires many groups from a rest and has a scientific and statistical background. He does the pistol shooting with a Ransom Rest. He tested mixed brass vs. same headstamp and the same headstamp was not superior. I don't expect anyone to believe that who hasn't read his articles but he comes from a scientific background, uses much better test methodology than any other gun writer I can think of, and doesn't go in with conclusions, but forms them after analyzing his data.

[Whistler]

Even though "match grade" seems to a debatable subject, there are still some guidelines of reference and requirement that stick no matter what shooting discipline you look at.

I've been along some of Europe's and the world's best PPC and metallic silhouette shooters and the standard has always been that a regular match hand gun with 5-6" barrel should be able to hold one group of 24 shots to 2" at 50 yards or 2" at 100 yards with a long barreled silhouette gun. These are not insane requirements and I know of several of the European top 20 IPSC shooters who are also very anal about their accuracy. Once they meet the power factor they check for reliability, when they have reliability they check for accuracy. The demand for accuracy is not lower than in any other shooting sport, they still test for 2" at 50 yards. Power factor (velocity standard deviation) and reliability come ahead, as those factors are more important to the game, but I have still to see a top level shooter accept a match load that does 3" at 25 yards.

[casterofboolits]

casterofbullits;
Sorry to hear of your problems. It's Hell getting old, isn't it? Give me a call and we'll DO IT!

MtGun44;
Yeah, I shot at Target World "back in the day". We had some pretty dern good matches there. The Winter Nationals were held there one time. It was a Good match with Bill Wilson and other celebrated shooters there. Bill had just returned from the International Match in South Africa where Ross Seyfried took all of the marbles. Bill is one of the good guys - I have been happy to have been witness to his business success.

Dale53

Yup! Shot the same match!

I bought a magizine spring from Wilson I used to make my first eight round magizine. Had to file a notch in the bottom rear of the mag to allow the follower to protrude below the bottom of the mag. Then glued a neoprene base pad, cut to clear the follower. Worked like a charm. It was popular at matches until someone liked it so much, they didn't return it. By that time, eight round conversion kits hit the market that didn't require modifications to the mag.

Mike Benidict, another Miamisburg shooter, went to the South African match too.

Those were the days! :bigsmyl2:

[Dale53]

casterofbullits;
>>>Those were the days! <<<

Amen! to that. We met some really fine people at our area matches! Rick Miller and Ken Hackathorn were regulars and helped mightily in getting the IPSC matches up and going at Butler County Sportsmen at Hamilton, Ohio (my home club). It was terrific while it lasted.

Dale53

[Old Caster]

I think the reason it was thought at one time that trimmed brass was necessary was that they didn't have taper crimp dies for the fourth station. The dies of long ago were more like a roll crimp and the bullet was seated at the same time that it was crimped. If the crimp wasn't perfectly adjusted it would get you in trouble. You will notice that Magnus on their website shows the accuracy of their different bullets with a claim that the brass used was mixed. When I was checking all kinds of loads a while ago I used only one kind of brass because I didn't want any variable. After I was satisfied with my tests, I started to vary a lot of things to see what really matters and was surprised what I could get away with and still have good 50 yard bullseye accuracy. The most important thing I found is that some bullet shapes are good almost whatever you do and some won't shoot good no matter what. Brass lengths made no difference that I could tell and if it is that close why bother.

[Char-Gar]

I am most certain that "close enough" and "good enough" is indeed close enough and good enough for most shooters.

The above not withstanding, I have proven to myself that ultimate accuracy requires a uniform crimp (taper or roll). A uniform crimp requires cases that are uniform in length and square across the mouth.

I am talking about the most accurate ammo possible here and not good enough or close enough. It this worth the extra time and effort? Probably not for most folks, but probably so for a few.

[btroj]

Amen Chargar. A poor to average shooter is satisfied with average ammo. They can't tell the difference. A great shooter will not be satisfied with average ammo, they will KNOW the difference.
The high master will always be more particular about ammo quality than the sharpshooter. They didn't get that good by shooting garbage.