I was stunned

[Thumbcocker]

A few days ago a co-worker came by to help my daughter and I load some scrap metal to take to the salvage yard. While we were talking he told me that he had helped his neighbor bail hay the weekend before because the neighbor could not get any other help. The neighbor has a 16 year old son , who also helped, but none of the sons friends or any high school age boys were willing to put up hay!
This is in a rural Central Illinois county, not some northern suburb. I couldn't believe it.

When I was in high school in the 70's bailing hay was a sought after job. You usually got a fair wage (I made $5 per hour in 79) lunch, and quite often the farmer's daughter would wander by during the day. While it was not unusual to lose 7-8 pounds during the day you would get it back by raiding the fridge and drinking tea at home. At 19 I felt like I was doing mans work for mans wages and was proud of myself.

My daughter is 19 and has been working her butt off in 90 degree heat helping me haul off junk and cut wood off of our building site. She doen't complain and is a cheerful worker. I am teaching her to run the chainsaw and she does a good job.

So my question is: What happened to boys raised during the 1990's?

[mtnman31]

Not enough parenting or mentorship. They probably got most of their life lessons from TV and video games.

[Brasso]

Agree 100%!! It also appears that for the ones who graduate college expect $100,000 salary.

Sam

[frkelly74]

The graduates need $100.000 Salary to pay off the usurious loans racked up. The system is broken. Work is not properly rewarded any more. Manpower and the companies moving offshore have put quick profit above long term solid growth and developing loyal hard workers.

[WILCO]

So my question is: What happened to boys raised during the 1990's?

They've all been feminized by their mothers, taught that most of them really were gay after all, doped out on Ritalin, abandoned by their fathers, and destroyed by the socialist public school system. :holysheep

[Guesser]

The new electronic age!!!! No one can make change from a cash register, read an analog clock, get their hands dirty or sweat. It's a brave new cowardly world!!!

[462]

Apathetic parents, and 50-plus years of creeping socialism which rewards the idle and lazy. The term "slackard" defines most of an entire generation.

[canyon-ghost]

Most are raised without fathers nowdays. Remember the part about empowering women? Well, they kick their new boyfriend out with amazing speed! Most boys nowdays don't have any idea what their father knew or sometimes, really who he was.


Not enough parenting or mentorship. They probably got most of their life lessons from TV and video games

That's way too close to the truth.

[garbear]

I married the farmers daughter. I don't know. I was expected to buck hay into Grandpa's pole barn. reward ws a nice lucnh by Grandma and free run of the place. I am still putting hay away but this time is for my father inlaw. rewards are great considering we have been married for 11 yrs and have 7 kids.

Garbear

[old turtle]

+1 Canyon, the idea of raising children in a single mother household is not a very good one. It takes two parents to raise children especially when the hit teenage. Even then it is sometimes not fun.

[roysha]

Don't forget that in a lot of areas farmers can't hire "underage" people to work for them unless they meet a lot of rather stringent restrictions. It still makes no sense to me that we put in a high dollar gym in a school with weight room and such, where kids can lift all they can, but it is against the law for them to pick up a 65-70 pound bale of hay out in the open sunshine and fresh air, making a buck or two.

To hire "adults" they need to have a porta-potty, breaks, lunch, pay unemployment insurance, have insurance on the place so if some brain dead yoyo hurts himself he doesn't end up with the farm via a lawsuit, etc.

I won't even begin the broach the illegal immigrant situation and how it affects this situation.:evil:

This in addition the the problems mentioned in the previous posts.

[Olevern]

Our new culture has taught them that the strong have a right to prey on the weak, that the display of any caring for their fellow man is weakness, that life is all about cars and flashy jewlery (bling) and humility has no place in the top of the food chain, it's instead all about "swager".

I used to think that the cities and that sub-culture could just kill each other off and eventually the problem would take care of itself, however, now, with the advent of the 'plugged in' generation, that culture and it's 'values' has come into the rural areas as well.

If you don't believe it, just listen to the lyrics of the **** the younger generation is listening to that passes for music today.

When 11 year olds (and younger) sing lyrics about 'takin her in the back door' and robbing drug dealers and killing cops and other like filth it tells me that we have produced a whole generation that are a waste of breathable air.

That said, there are still some good kids out there, although I believe they are in the minority. The decline of the church as a focal point of the family and the community bodes ill for our future.

God can give or remove His blessing from a nation, just look at Israel's early history with the entire nation being carried off into captivity and enslaved when the people turned their backs on Yahweh (God)

[Dframe]

There does seem to be a severe lack of a work ethic in todays young. Not sure exacly when or how we lost it but it's there.

[felix]

Not sure exacly when or how we lost it but it's there.


Well, I'm sure. Lack of goals and objectives to meet those goals, which comes from the lack of ideas. The Lord helps those who ask for guidance. The schools have no interest in the Lord. ... felix

[diehard]

The graduates need $100.000 Salary to pay off the usurious loans racked up. The system is broken. Work is not properly rewarded any more. Manpower and the companies moving offshore have put quick profit above long term solid growth and developing loyal hard workers.

Lot of truth here.



They've all been feminized by their mothers, taught that most of them really were gay after all, doped out on Ritalin, abandoned by their fathers, and destroyed by the socialist public school system.

[I wish to apologize in advance for my forthcoming rant...I'm just feeling it today. It is NOT directed at Wilco, or any other member here. Just some points I wish to make. Many of them might be WAY OFF base, but it's how I'm seeing things from where I sit this morning. It's a long one...skip it if you like...but there may be a point or two you can relate to inside]

I heartily agree with the most of the above statement. However, I had a grandmother that pushed education on me to the point I was reading a year before kindergarten. To her, education was the antidote for poverty. The plan worked for me. If not for her and some really excellent teachers that pushed and pushed, I'd probably be a drug addict, felon or a participant in welfare fraud like many of those back home that took a different route.

Anyway...I keep reading about this "socialist public school system" in nearly every forum on this site. After 7 years in corporate America I gave up a very high paying job to become a school teacher, after I realized that I hadn't seen my family in over a month. This alone can be a recipe for messed up kids. So, I took a a 50% cut in pay to land my first teaching job. I have now been a teacher in one of the "mill towns-without a mill" (read no jobs...poor) that dot the New England landscape for the past 13 years. I have yet to see *** you guys are talking about.

I will agree that there are some liberals/idealists and.... gasp...Democrats (too many)... in the school systems in which I have worked. Yet like me, many of the teachers I work with are career Reservists or National Guard members, retired military, or just plain old fashioned Patriotic Americans. Most work two jobs and throughout the summer to pay their bills. In the school where I work now, we have a population of kids of which 50% fall in criteria set by the Federal government (the real socialists) for poverty. They come to school from broken homes, homes with one or both parent is in prison, ect... such is the nature of the New England ghost mill town. I will tell you that it is VERY difficult to get students these days to buy into anything you have to tell them about the constitution (my favorite subject) and history, because they come to high school with their minds already shaped by the different messages they have absorbed in movies, TV, etc.

Examples: Walt Disney has taught all our kids that animals live in little nuclear families, and communicate with each other, and are harassed by the evil hunter man. Movies and the 6"clock news have taught them that guns are BAD, BAD BAD, and that rural people are stupid, ignorant rednecks with bad teeth. Movies and TV and the internet have taught them that corporate America is greedy, evil and ruthless, and that the government is one amorphous mass of conspiracies. Movies and TV have convinced them that gangsters are cool, homosexuals are a persecuted underclass fighting for justice...so they are cool too (teens have such an innate sense of "justice" don''t they?) TV has taught kids that all adult males---especially fathers and teachers-- are buffoons and clowns and not worthy of any respect. ( &^%$@* Family Guy and Homer Simpson, and just about all sit-coms, etc.) Worst of all, they see no point in working for minimum wage, when its so easy to "make bank" recording hip hop tracks, or peddling a dope (after all its doesn't hurt any one does it?---they don't see the blood stains in every puff of weed they take). Becoming America's Idol is easy right?

These are the brains I am asked to shape into patriotic Americans. And I love my job...and I do my best to break through all the **** and help kids make up their own minds about what constitutes solid American values. As a libertarian, I pull no punches on what the Constitution says and ....just as importantly......what it doesn't say. So do the vast majority of my colleagues. Being an idealist doesn't necessarily mean that one is socialist...it means one believes kids should have hope, dreams and goals...and work for them.

Now the NEA...may they rot in hell...is an organization ripe with all types of whack jobs. There is a continuous stream of "hate email" going back and forth between me and them.

This is getting long....and probably should be deleted, but I have some more to say, and since I have time on this Sunday morning I'll go on hoping to create a real dialogue about the youth today.

There are few more points that I want to make about why kids don't' want to work:

We have feminized our male children. I kills me to no end to see Moms at the park fretting over a boy who fell off a jungle gym. Helping him up and wiping his nose is the WORST thing to do. If you don't just tell him to get up and to try again, he'll expect mommy to pick him up his whole life. I could go on forever...because I see the impact of it every day. I saw a parent sue the school for kicking their child out of the National Honor society for cheating and plagiarizing an entire paper. The lawyer won. (Can you remember President Clinton asking the Senate hearing to "define sex" during the Lewinsky scandal? Honor too is all in the definition apparently).

And times have changed. Remember when we were kids riding our bikes for miles to work on farms or play little league? Not any more. Mom gives them a ride.... they have to because times have changed. Panic about West Nile Virus, Lyme disease, sexual predators, violence, drunk drivers, etc, etc is very real. I know teens that have spent their entire lives indoors
out of fear of those things. The only worlds these kids know are the fantasy worlds in their video games. These are brilliant kids...but soft and weak both physically and spiritually because they don't know God and Nature for what they are. [side note: I had a class of 30 kids once where only TWO of them had ever been to any type of church service].

Here's a brief true story about what SOME young people expect and how they rationalize their actions: For 18 months in Iraq I was a platoon sergeant for 63 soldiers, the bulk of which were under 20 years old. We set up and maintained fuel operations for combat troops and convoys going in and out of country. We were largely independent and pulled our own security. During the night we manned twice the number of guard posts than we did in the day. One young man, age 19, came back from guard duty one morning (from a tower not manned during the day) after leaving a highly sensitive SINCGARS radio UNSECURED IN THE GUARD SHACK! Now this radio was programmed with all the codes for the entire theater of operations. Insurgents would have loved to get one back then. The soldier's rationale......no one picked him up (our vehicles were all on a convoy support mission), so he felt it unfair he had to carry the 18 pound radio a full half mile back to the TOC. IMAGINE THAT...no soccer mom for a ride and no sense of responsibility to every soldier in the theater. The story gets ugly after he set the EEO officers on me claiming racial discrimination (for not picking him up n the morning), but I won't bore you with those details.


Now... I grew up in the diary, poultry, and small time-logging independent operation heart of Maine. By age 5 us kids would pick wild raspberries and sell them by the quart to distant neighbors. At age 9, when I asked my Dad for basketball shoes he called a local chicken farmer and got me a job picking eggs every weekend...one of several jobs I kept until I was 18. I cleaned barns, learned to run a chain saw by age 14 so I could limb fallen pines for loggers. I raked blueberries --back breaking working only done today by illegal immigrants--picked apples and sorted seed potatoes. I LOVED haying, and every farmer in the area would call me to come work for them. In addition to the manual labor, I even worked as sports stringer for a local weekly news paper. As much as I worked., MANY other kids worked much harder. We had to. We wanted to. Our culture valued it.

Time to tie this up (I can hear some of you screaming "thank God!). The point is ...the way I see it anyway...is that our popular culture doesn't value ANYTHING! Every institution is up for bashing and blaming and demonizing--from government, to police, to church, and....what got me started...schools. Heck, we even have TV shows that demonize the pop stars that demonize our society. Ironic, isn't it? Life is all about entertainment these days I guess.

Oh well, I'm done. I apologize if my scattered thoughts failed to make any valid points. I can see that since I started writing this (30 minutes ago?), several other posters have made incredibly valid points that hit the mark. I hope I at least added SOMETHING of value to the discussion.

One more thing...if anyone wants to "visit my socialist public school" for a day please let me know. I will hook you up.

Rant over...thanks for your patience,

Laurel

[bowfin]

Before we come down on this next generation like a ton of bricks, ask who was responsible for their proper rearing? The generation before. Does that include you?

What did anyone here do last week to counteract any of these problems of single mothers, bad schools, nanny state mentality, and video games? What more can one do?

I know it sucks to put in so much time on your own family and then have to donate time and effort to try to limit the damage caused by someone else's poor lifestyle choices or arrogant wrongheadedness, but this is the world we live in, not the world we want.

[Wayne Smith]

One thing that wasn't mentioned and may have a significant impact in our understanding - how much was he paying?

[Trey45]

Diehard, I enjoyed your rant! There's something cathartic about getting stuff off of ones chest, and you did so. Keep up the good work, I like your style.

[SharpsShooter]

dirhard,

1st thanks for serving our country on two fronts. First in war and second in education. The problem most here have with public education is that there aren't enough professionals such as yourself in the system to make the difference. I do not not to intend to discourage you, but the liberals have taken over the education system and pretty much destroyed it with "feel good" advancement instead of setting proper goals and letting them suffer the results of their failure as students. Now for fear of injuring their self esteem, substandard, even functionally illiterate students hit the streets every spring looking for work.

No one will hire them and they have good reason not to do so.


Teachers are not wholly responsible, parents are complicit in the disaster of today's youth. Single or both parents present irregardless, they have put their careers before their children and most have not a single clue as to what their kids are being taught. Many have no contact with the school unless little Sally or Billy gets into trouble.


The combination of the two creates a faceless entity that is raising the adults of tomorrow and that's pretty damn scary if you ask me. That entity is under the guidelines of our government under the guise of the Dept of Ed. and that just adds to the problem.

Private Christian school has been the answer for our kids. Private schools win almost all around. Most private schools have small class sizes. One of the key points of private education is individual attention. You need student to teacher ratios of 15:1 or better to achieve that goal of individual attention. Public has better pay and benefits generally, but far less bureaucracy to impair teaching. Funding is through tuition and fundraising activities that the STUDENTS must work on as part of their curriculum. That is the entire point I guess...we, the parents and teachers, teach "work ethics".


Hang in there.


SS

[EDK]

I see that "kids" tend to be visible in the two extremes. Either they expect to have money, car, etc given to them while basically "spinning their wheels" with no goals in sight. OR they are so motivated and "eyes on the prize" that they are a PITA. The others need some goals or possibly a tour in Uncle Sam's military to inspire them.

I work in a power plant and we have four girls in the labor gang. Two wear a small mans T-shirt...I bought some as gifts at the Quigley shoot this year...and the other two wear a medium or large. All of them willingly volunteer for overtime and the chance to get "an up grade" to higher paying, but much more strenuous work. When I asked one what she was going to do with the $800 (pre-tax) from 12 hours on the up graded job on her day off, she said "it's going into the bank." After working miscellaneous jobs before, $60+ an hour looks d*** good! (One, incidentally, was VALEDICTORIAN in high school and got an associates degree in electronics before getting hired.) When I see what all four of them do, I see hope for the future. My biggest regret is that I'm old enough to be all of thems' grandfather and won't be around work long enough to see them work their way up the ladder.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[smoked turkey]

diehard thanks for sharing your thoughts and your heart with us. Speaking for myself I appreciate what you say and how you said it. I imagine a very great number of us are products of two parents in the home, respect for authority, a belief in God, good work ethetic, education via the public school system, and respect for ourselves. I see a couple of things that I think contribute to the decline America is experiencing. When God was taken out of the classroom we experienced a turning point in public education. When abortion became legal and acceptable we lost respect for human life and responsibility for our own actions. We have a generation of kids that don't like themselves because their own parents don't like them either. Most times single parent families are the norm because the father of the child (I purposely didn't say dad) is too busy jumping from bed to bed and the mother is in heat all the time.
Something that really grinds on me is the way out elected officials act and treat each other. No wonder congress can't get anything done because they are bickering and fighting each other all the time. I don't know one work place that could exist with a bunch of workers acting like that. I think this lack of respect and arguing back and forth speaks to the younger set that this is the way to treat each other and the way it is in the work place. I would love to see them work together without always keeping an eye on the politics. I don't know how I got from diehards ideas to this so I'm done.

[casterofboolits]

A few days ago a co-worker came by to help my daughter and I load some scrap metal to take to the salvage yard. While we were talking he told me that he had helped his neighbor bail hay the weekend before because the neighbor could not get any other help. The neighbor has a 16 year old son , who also helped, but none of the sons friends or any high school age boys were willing to put up hay!
This is in a rural Central Illinois county, not some northern suburb. I couldn't believe it.

When I was in high school in the 70's bailing hay was a sought after job. You usually got a fair wage (I made $5 per hour in 79) lunch, and quite often the farmer's daughter would wander by during the day. While it was not unusual to lose 7-8 pounds during the day you would get it back by raiding the fridge and drinking tea at home. At 19 I felt like I was doing mans work for mans wages and was proud of myself.

My daughter is 19 and has been working her butt off in 90 degree heat helping me haul off junk and cut wood off of our building site. She doen't complain and is a cheerful worker. I am teaching her to run the chainsaw and she does a good job.

So my question is: What happened to boys raised during the 1990's?

$5.00 an hour! A veritable fortune! I got $.75 and lunch in 1959. But I came away with muscles and a hell of a grip which has only stated to decline at 69. :drinks:

[square butte]

I don't remember what I used to get up in the Texas panhandle in 1975 for bailing stuble in the fall in -5 bellow zero with a steady 25 mph breeze - But I can tell you it was not enough.

[41mag]

Well I gotta say it ain't just the teen age folks either. We have several folks in their mid thirties who think they are too good to sweat, get their hands greasy, and various other terrible aspects of work.

I worked my rear off growing up, working weekends on the family farm and during the week after school I helped my pop with wood working projects that we did for extra cash. I didn't even ask about an hourly wage or a by the piece payment, heck I was happy if he slipped me a 20 for the weekends we stayed home.

He explained it terms that were pretty easily understood, your getting food, clothes, and housing, as long as you pitch in. I figured that was a pretty decent deal. My daughter got the same deal. When she dragged up the chores, she hit the road. Now she is living in the country has a steady job, and three kids. Is she rich, nope, barely getting by. Be she is doing all she can do to do so, and for that I feel I can help out when needed. I had plenty of help with her as a teen age pop, so I learned that you let them hustle so they understand where it is coming from, and why when it does come. If you toss them something every time their had is out, well guess what....

[shooterg]

$5 an Hour ! Even $0.75 an hour ! Here the farmer would pull up to a teen hangout, pick up about 3 or 4 willing, pay 'em 15 cents per bale picked up on the wagon and stacked in the barn. Still a 1000 bales = $150 split 4 ways meant a good weekend then. Don't see much but the big round bales here nowadays except for alfalfa for the horse folks.

On a REAL good day we might be offered a cold beer after the work was done !

[462]

Diehard,
You are to be commended for your dedication and desire to made sure your students learn. I live in California, and as you may know, our public school system is completely broken.

In the county in which live, fully 40% of the students are either non-English speakers, or speak it at least one grade level lower than the one they are in.

If a student has an Hispanic sur-name, he or she is automatically put in a non-English speaking class, that is taught in Spanish. It matters not if the student speaks only English. This is an effort to employ as many bi-lingual teachers as possible, because they have higher salaries.

The public schools get a share of their funding from local property taxes. My county has a huge illegal immigrant population. More often than not, they live two and even three families per residential unit -- house or apartment -- thus, the amount of property tax paid is disporpotional to the number of school age children. (The illegals have more children per family than any of the community's various ethnic groups.)

Each year, as more students continue to not pass the state's testing program, the passing grades are lowered, in the hopes that next year more students will pass. Dumbing down is a reality, not just a catch phrase.

Because of the local public school system's failure, the number of charter and Christian schools are on the rise, as are the number of home-schooled students. However, the teachers union have erected many high hurdles and flaming hoops, making it extremely difficult for those shcools to become reality.

At least one of my county's public school systems has been taken by the state, because of its total failure to educate its students.

Amidst all the failure, teachers are tenured with very little time on the job.

My county's public school supervisor and the different systems' administrators earnings are in the six figures. At least two of administrators are under investigation for ethic and criminal violations.

One third of the state's budget is constitutionally mandated toward education. Each year, as the public school systems continue in their failure to teach, the teachers union demands more money.

Last week, the state's legislature passed a bill that requires the achievements of homosexuals and lesbians be taught in the public shcools. I'll be surprised if Governor Brown vetoes it.

These are but a few of the problems that confront California's students.

[oscarflytyer]

I loved bailing hay. Think it's a shame they all use big round bales nowadays... best beer I ever had was an ice cold PBR right after a day of baling and filling the barn. Wish there was some work like that around here for my boys...

But they will all work. One of mine (have 5) will just get up and go out in the back yard in the heat and work most of the day cleaning it up and cutting weeds, etc. They aren't afraid of hard work. When the tornadoes hit here, we got a bunch of the teenagers together and took crews out to clean up. They worked VERY hard and learned a lot. It really made an impression on them.

As Bowfin said, the kids are just doing what they have been allowed to get away with. I try and do as much as I can, such as the clean up crews and coaching, to help those good kids ans those that want it. Can't force a horse to drink...

And lastly, the comment about feminizing kids and giving them rides, etc.... We don't have school buses where I live, so the kids either walk to school of mommy gives them a ride. Our kids walk. Not that far, about a mile or so. But my wife told me she was looked down upon by other mothers because she made our kids walk! I was shocked! Its good for them! But she also said she noticed more kids walking after ours started it. As I say, they only do what they get away with!

[fatelk]

Bucking hay bales; what a memory. I had bad allergies so I spent a lot of time driving the truck, or on the tractor cutting, raking, or baling, but I have pitched my share of bales too. I pitched them twice; once in the summer and again in the winter feeding the cows! I didn't mind the grass ones but the alfalfa bales were a big pain in the back!

It took me a long time to learn, but I've come to realize that a certain amount of hard work really IS good for you, both in body and mind.

I enjoyed reading Diehard's "rant" and thought it was interesting and well-written. I have a rather long, opinionated rant of my own, so feel free to skip the following if you don't like that sort of thing.

I think every generation grumbles about "kids these days" and how it was different in the good old days, but there really is a difference now. A lot of kids and young people are flat-out spoiled. I noticed some of the older guys at work who griped about their rotten grown kids. They worked a lot of hours, made a lot of money, and gave their kids all the stuff "I didn't have growing up." Instead of appreciating it, their kids came to expect it. When they were old enough to drive, mommy and daddy bought them a nice car (usually nicer than their own).

When they got married or shacked up, mommy and daddy took out a second mortgage so they could "gift" them ten or twenty grand for a down payment on a house a heck of a lot nicer than what they started out in. BTW, I can't stand the word "gift" used as a verb. When we bought our house, the mortgage broker told us we needed a bigger down payment, surely there's a parent or someone who could just "gift" us $10,000 like everyone else? Yea, right. I'm glad I haven't had everything handed to me on a silver platter; I've seen the results of that.

I would love to give my kids everything they want. It makes me feel really good, but then I look at a couple grown nephews of mine and I see where that can go. In the long run it harms them, possibly as bad as abuse. It holds them back in the long run, with false expectations, no respect, and little or no work ethic. Not everyone will turn out that way of course; every one is different.

I have something of a unique perspective on education myself. I attended public school up to middle school, home-schooled several years, then graduated from a small church-affiliated private school. Many years later I attended the local community college as a displaced worker, just last month earning an associate degree in electronics, with a 4.08 GPA.

My wife and I home-school our own children. We have friends who home-school, and others who send their children to either private or public school. I have friends who are public school teachers.

My opinion is that the most important thing a parent can do for their kids is to be responsible for their education, no matter where they attend school. Sure, many aspects of our public education system are rotten to the core, but there are a lot of very good teachers in that system who really care about the kids and are doing their very best. Friends of ours whose kids go to public school are heavily involved in a substantial way, making sure their kids get the best teachers and working with them; knowing what they are studying and who their friends are. I'm sure they will be fine. They just have to understand and try to counteract some of the stuff they disagree with that is force-fed to their kids by the system.

On the other hand, a friend who is a public school teacher has told me horror stories about some of the parents and kids they've had to deal with. No, it's definitely not all the school's fault.

At the same time, please don't send your kid to a private school and think everything is fine without that same level of involvement. Stuff goes on in private schools, even Christian schools. I know this for a fact. Kids get sneaky, learn how to put on a little angelic face in public while involved in any devious activity you can think of. Alcohol, porn, sex, drugs; it's all there to some degree. Again, not all kids, but some folks would be surprised.

As to academic standards, I was surprised and a little disappointed at the lack thereof at the community college I just attended. It really wasn't much of a challenge to get a 4.08 GPA (some teachers give out A+'s like candy). A few classes were challenging, but even they were not hard to pull straight A's in. In some classes, pretty much everyone gets an A, whether they try or not. Yes, I earned my grades, but it wasn't as challenging as I think it should have been. A 4.0 GPA should really mean something, and I don't think it does any more.

One more anecdote: some friends of ours recently hosted an exchange student from a former Soviet country. We were visiting before she went home, and asked about academic standards as compared to her country. She said that she learned nothing except some American history. She got straight A+'s without really trying. She said she took an entrance exam of some sort at the start of the school year, and they told her that they really had nothing for her; she tested above everything they had to offer. She enjoyed her year there but felt it was wasted academically.

Is our school system that bad or is she just an overachiever? I'm guessing a little bit of both.

[Olevern]

Before we come down on this next generation like a ton of bricks, ask who was responsible for their proper rearing? The generation before. Does that include you?

No, my children are grown up and have their own grown up children (I have two great-grandchildren)


What did anyone here do last week to counteract any of these problems of single mothers, bad schools, nanny state mentality, and video games? What more can one do?

I am looking across the living room at two boys eating and watching t.v., age 12 and 13 that don't belong to me or mine, one has a father who moves from girlfriend to girlfriend on a weekly basis and doesn't have a home or a pot to p*** in, could care less about his kid except to make certain that the boy's mother doesn't get him and charge him child support. Earlier today, took them to church, then lunch at my house, followed by riding my dirtbikes, supervised and accompanied by me. Tomorrow will take them to the nearby state park to swim, fish and barbecue. Try to teach them values in their everyday interactions with each other and in modeling caring behavior. The 12 y.o. has lived with my wife and I on and off over the last two years when things get really bad at home.

I know it sucks to put in so much time on your own family and then have to donate time and effort to try to limit the damage caused by someone else's poor lifestyle choices or arrogant wrongheadedness, but this is the world we live in, not the world we want.

Amen

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[diehard]

Wow! Some tremendously accurate and insightful discussion here. I 'd like to acknowledge all the valid points that caught my attention, but that would be another long post. Let's just say I have enjoyed this very respectful discussion. I would like to point out just one amusing thought.
Sharpshooter said: Now for fear of injuring their self esteem, substandard, even functionally illiterate students hit the streets every spring looking for work.

I chuckled here because by favorite expression (one I learned in the Army) is " I hate to redline your esteem meter but...... ::) Usually my students know that means they are going to do the assignment over or not get credit...


I do agree that school has dumbed down all across the board. Its all about numbers now. Fewest drop outs wins. Pressure starts from the governor and pushes down to all links of the food chain.

I will add one more point: I think that teachers who worked in the real world (and who grew up in the real world) connect to kids better than teachers hired right out of college. Knowing what it is like to fail, struggle and sweat makes a tremendous difference in one's perspective. Most kids want to be pushed a bit (just like in the Army...remember how we all argued bout how our drill sergeants were the meanest?), you just have to approach everything from a position of mutual respect. My classes are always full, usually with the toughest kids, because I don't take myself too seriously. I take my job very seriously though. I tell my students that I am living proof that an IQ test is not a requirement for teacher training. :)

Anyway...starting to babble again...

Happy shooting guys!

[oscarflytyer]

One more anecdote: some friends of ours recently hosted an exchange student from a former Soviet country. We were visiting before she went home, and asked about academic standards as compared to her country. She said that she learned nothing except some American history. She got straight A+'s without really trying. She said she took an entrance exam of some sort at the start of the school year, and they told her that they really had nothing for her; she tested above everything they had to offer. She enjoyed her year there but felt it was wasted academically.

Is our school system that bad or is she just an overachiever? I'm guessing a little bit of both.

That is just a damn crying shame! And SCARY!

To add to it, I got a Business Masters online. Was in my early 40's. Kept two other guys in mid-30's on my team. We would habitually pick up some 20 something with ZERO work/real life experience, right out of undergrad. THey had NO CLUE HOW TO WRITE!!! Many times, we would read what they wrote and just go HUH?!? They were idiots. It was sad. And even sadder - we carried many of these morons to As... But had to just so we didn't get dinged.

[CLAYPOOL]

I hauled hay @ 1 1/2 cent per bale and then we started to get 2 cents a bale....Man the money ROLLED in....

[Bret4207]

YOu simply can't hire anyone to help with square bales of hay for an affordable cost. These days, according to a recent post on a tractor website I frequent, people are paying $10-15.00 an hour or $.50-.75 a bale. I can barely swing the fuel and twine costs these days, talk about usurious fees! It's nothing more than simple "Bubba" labor, lift, stack, sweat. And yet people seem to think it's worth what to me are ridiculously high wages. So the farmer is down to either using big bales, illegals or family. And even if you can get help for a decent cost, they don't want to work at all. When a 51 year old in not so great shape can out work 18-25 year olds it's sad, and I did it Saturday and Sunday.

As for parenting and the schools, I have come to the conclusion that sometimes no matter how hard the parent tries you're going to get some duds. I won't go into specifics, but let's just say that you can do everything possible and still get a gangsta wannabe/couch potato/go nowhere kid. They can play basketball in 95 degree heat at 85% humidity but can't lift a 2x8 or drive a tractor. There used to be a tradition in some places of taking the 12-14 year old boy and removing him from the family and having him go through the "miserable years" learning from older non-related men. I think there's something to that in many cases.


The graduates need $100.000 Salary to pay off the usurious loans racked up. The system is broken. Work is not properly rewarded any more. Manpower and the companies moving offshore have put quick profit above long term solid growth and developing loyal hard workers.

I would like to take issue with something Mr Kelly noted- that $100K in college loans. It's our education INDUSTRY and it's willing accomplices that have brought us to this. Kids believe they HAVE to go to college right out of high school and it's got to be living on campus (PAR-TEE!!!!!!!!) and it's got to be as far away from home as possible. Who brought us to this? Who glorified and solidified this idea that 4 years of partying would lead to a $100K a year starting salary? How many unemployed Art History Majors and Education Majors are out there? Zillions. I have several in that line in my extended family.

IMO 95% of our high school grads would be better served by spending 3-6 years growing up in a military or other service type scenario, until they've matured and have some vague idea of what appeals to them. No offense to the college grads and faculty, but I believe college is a giant boondoggle and a complete waste of time and money for at least 60% of those attending. Those with a real flair, a drive to work in a certain area, a particular talent, yeah, college is fine. The average 18-22 year old with a 10 year old brain and all the maturity of Daffy Duck does not belong in college.

[Rockydog]

I'm tempted to agree with most of the sentiments on here but then I think about some of the kids I know and think that you all paint with a pretty wide brush. I've got a son 30 years old, Eagle scout, 11 1/2 years as a US Navy Diver, 3 kids, works his tail off. I've got two nephews that are the same age. One is a graphic artist, hunter father of two with a wife who's a High School Principle (She's 31 yrs old) The other is a landscaper with a wife who's mostly a full time mother but sub teaches now and again. I've got a son inlaw who works about 60 hours a week as a computer programmer dept. Mgr. and a daughter in grad school. One of my best friends is a 32 year old self taught IT Dept mgr. All of these kids with the exception of my son own their own houses. Most attend church regularly and are great parents In spite of a few tatoos and a couple of ear rings. I just hired two young gentlemen who are scary smart, both are on salary and both work in excess of 50 hours weekly by their choice. I have another employee who works a full time salaried position, farms with her husband, has 3 kids and serves as a volunteer EMT for her township at 32. While it always seems fashionable to trash the next generation, God knows many of you were nothing but #%^& Hippies to your parents, I think at some point most grow up, get serious about life and advance the human race. In other words, instinct takes over. Every generation has it's share of losers and slackers. I don't think I'm all that atypical in seeing young folks like these all around me. Start looking and you'll find far more good ones than slackers. RD

[diehard]

RockyDog,

I know you are right. If any of you guys want proof that every generation has different values and expectations than their kids do I recommend you find copies of the following sermons delivered in the 1680's by Puritan minister Increase Mather:

1] "A Call From Heaven, to the Present and Succeeding Generations

or
2] "Pray for the Rising Generations

and especially a sermon by his Brother Eleazar Mather first given in 1678(!!!)

"A Serious Exhortation to the Present and Succeeding Generation in New-England"

Reading all three of these sermons will sound remarkably familiar to all of us. In fact after reading this thread those sermons might CRACK YOU UP! :)


[in case you are wondering...I majored in history when I went back to college at age 27 (finally mature enough to be serious about it...graduated Suma cum Laude from UNH . Now my first attempt at college......well let's just say that Bret4207 hit a bullseye with his comments on PARTEEE! ...and I was paying my own way too! Stupid!) and I just love this stuff. If I still had copies to share I would, but I lent them to another teacher.]

[Farmall]

Me and 4 buddies got together last night to pick up and stack 400 brome bales...the youngest was 35, and oldest was 40. We used to do this every day during the summer and drain a case of beer every night.
Never got paid...we got sent to help the neighbors, and they were expected to send their kids to help us, and they did.
Back then, mid 80's, I can think of a dozen highschool boys within 5 miles of us...now I can only think of one, and within a 10 mile radius, only 2-3 others. The farm crisis cleaned house in our neighborhood....there just aren't any people left of the age to do this kind of work.

I appreciate the cameraderie and values this kind of work instilled, but it was a damn fine day when the Vermeer dealer showed up with a new 605K behind his truck!

Crazy thing about last night.....the case of beer (now between 5 of us) hurt more than the physical work!

[alamogunr]

When I was in high school in the 70's bailing hay was a sought after job. You usually got a fair wage (I made $5 per hour in 79) lunch, and quite often the farmer's daughter would wander by during the day. While it was not unusual to lose 7-8 pounds during the day you would get it back by raiding the fridge and drinking tea at home. At 19 I felt like I was doing mans work for mans wages and was proud of myself.



I'm going to show my age. In the '50's we got 1¢ per bale. That was for each in a crew of 4 or 5. It included bucking the bales into the loft. You learned not to hire on to the farmer that cranked the baler down so the bales weighed 80+ lbs.

Now everything is round bales. I never see the old rectangular bales any more.

John
W.TN

[Rockydog]

You haven't lived until you handled Allis Chalmers Roto Bales. These were the first round bales and were about 36" long and 18-24" around. They were heavy at 60-80 pounds and you couldn't handle them by the string as it was just wrapped around the bale, no knots. We handled them with hay hooks or by stretching your arms from end to end. Fell out of the baler onto the ground and had to picked up and loaded on a wagon or trailer. My uncle used to bale them a bit tough so as not to lose the leaves and let them field cure for a week or ten days before moving them to the barn. Crickets and beetles would move in under them along with the ocassional mouse. That wasn't bad but it did make a dinner buffet for all the snakes in the neighborhood. Mostly garter snakes but there was more than one timber rattler found under them too in the area of SW WI. where I grew up. Taught me real quick to give them a kick and roll them over before I picked them up. RD

[rintinglen]

Ah, yes, when I was young, it never rained, the girls were prettier, we all worked hard, sun up to midnight, 8 days a week, except Sunday, when we walked three miles uphill both ways naked through the snow to go to church where we were all choirboys.
BULL!!
If you are, like me, a baby boomer, you share the dubious distinction of being a member of the most lawless morally questionable generation in our nations history. When we were young and smoking dope at Woodstock, or Altamont, or Goose Lake, our fellows were beginning a crime wave that would spiral ever higher into the 90s, when we got too old and feeble, or already imprisoned, to continue our wicked ways. Despite the garbage we get as news--if it bleeds, it leads--crime today is at its lowest point since the 60's. Are there knuckleheads who are immature? Yes. Were there at least as many back in our day? Yes, Hell yes.
My older daughter and her friends all graduated with honors from high school. Any of them could beat my best day at chemistry, calculus, or most definitely computers. Several have attended college, one is engineer, another a nurse, one is managing a medical records office. My daughter is working at a power plant as an instrument technician. When I compare my friends from high school with them, I shake my head in embarassment. The next time one of us climbs on his high horse about the good old days and the wickedness of today's youth, it would do us good to reflect that a Roman orator whose name escapes me (Cicero?) made much the same complaint over 20 centuries ago. Kids today are not angels, nor geniuses, nor saints--but neither were we.

[Bret4207]

Gee Glen, sounds like you had the krappy end of the era.

[OBIII]

I think that the intent of the original post was to draw a comparison between what was 30-40 years ago, as compared to what is today. I went to public school through the 50's and 60's, and am convinced that I am a fairly smart fellah. While not having extensively studied the subjects, I know more about the Constitution, Bill of Rights, American History, etc. etc., than my grown daughters and sil's that graduated 6-10 years ago. The problem is not so prevalent in the rural areas, but in the large metropolitan areas it's a different story. Too many headlines (Not in the main stream media) about how kids are no longer being taught what I was taught. Instead, they are being taught self-esteem, tolerance, how capitalism is bad and America is worse, and the list goes on and on (let's not forget gay-tolerance). Parents are also a major part of the problem, especially considering that the majority (don't quote me) of families in the large metropolitan areas are probably single parent. I have no facts, but would think that the number of two parent families would be higher in the rural areas. Most teachers are not to blame, as they are told (forced) by their school districts as to what they are allowed and expected to teach. I was raised in the city (with frequent weekend trips to the relatives farms), was a GS-11 with the Federal Government making good bucks, when a friend asked if I would be interested in helping his dad out. His dad was growing tobacco on leased land, and could not find anyone willing to help him reap what he had sown. Without hesitation, I volunteered, talked one of my friends into helping, and drafted my half-brother as well. Needless to say, after two days I determined that I did not want to be a tobacco farmer. Pay? None, but more food than we could eat at meals, ice cold tea or water brought to us in the field. Value? Priceless, giving of ourselves to help out someone who needed it.
I don't think that anyone is trying to point out any particular group or problem, but it should be obvious to all of us that we do have a problem. It has been said that it takes a Village to raise a child. What we need to do is to get rid of the idiots in charge of the village and replace them with someone who believes in America, American Exceptionalism, Faith, and the Constitution. Until such a time, we will continue these debates.
(Oh, and I was also called a ^%%* hippie by my parents and their friends) :-o

[watkibe]

My now-35 year old son loved that money he earned from bucking hay. He didn't mind it either that he got so muscular and strong, potential fight challenges faded away once they realized they were messing with a farm boy at the end of hay season.

[fatelk]

I think we're comparing averages and anecdotes. By no means did I mean to imply that ALL young people today are lazy, ignorant, whatever. I know many young people that are exceptional by any measure. I have two nephews that recently put in their time overseas, one as a Marine and the other as an Army Ranger. A couple of sharp guys; top grades in school, scholarships and family support, the world at their feet and they chose to serve their country.

There are millions like them, but we all know the other type too. Really there always has been in every generation. I just think that on average American kids tend to be a little more spoiled and ignorant now days than ever before; just my opinion and I've been wrong before.

Again, talking averages. Some refer to the baby boomer generation as a bunch of degenerate hippies; my folks are of that age and were not participants in any of that garbage, in fact they had no use whatsoever for Woodstock or dope-smoking hippies, just like millions of others their age.

I'm inclined to agree with Bret4207 about college. I think it's a huge waste of money for a lot of people; basically anyone who isn't serious about it. I never went to college when I was younger because I didn't know what I wanted to do and didn't think I could afford it. I sure saw a difference (in general) between the older folks going back to school because they have to, and the younger people fresh out of high school.

[home in oz]

A few days ago a co-worker came by to help my daughter and I load some scrap metal to take to the salvage yard. While we were talking he told me that he had helped his neighbor bail hay the weekend before because the neighbor could not get any other help. The neighbor has a 16 year old son , who also helped, but none of the sons friends or any high school age boys were willing to put up hay!
This is in a rural Central Illinois county, not some northern suburb. I couldn't believe it.

When I was in high school in the 70's bailing hay was a sought after job. You usually got a fair wage (I made $5 per hour in 79) lunch, and quite often the farmer's daughter would wander by during the day. While it was not unusual to lose 7-8 pounds during the day you would get it back by raiding the fridge and drinking tea at home. At 19 I felt like I was doing mans work for mans wages and was proud of myself.

My daughter is 19 and has been working her butt off in 90 degree heat helping me haul off junk and cut wood off of our building site. She doen't complain and is a cheerful worker. I am teaching her to run the chainsaw and she does a good job.

So my question is: What happened to boys raised during the 1990's?

They are wussified by being raised by their moms, grammas, and friends of those ladies.

[Rooster]

Be very careful with the broad brush strokes because you may conceal a treasure. I side with the youth of today as they have lacked the home/environmcental exposure that our generation has exprienced. One example, perhaps an outlier, is my oldest son. He joined the service in the Summer of '02 right after graduation. He toured 3 times with 5th Group in Iraq and to this day I've yet to hear one unsolicited complaint from my boy about his time over there (except for the smells). IOW don't think everyone, or for that matter most, of the next generation is deficient in humanity. I feel that there is hope for America and from my position a great pride in its citizenry (sp?).

[10x]

snip

So my question is: What happened to boys raised during the 1990's?

Nintendo generation. And wealthy parents.
Video games are like twiddling your thumbs in a reactive and organized manner.
Essentially there is generation of thumb twiddlers out there who missed out on social skills, have unreasonable expectations, and have not learned that work brings rewards, not to mention pays the bills. Their expectations, self value, expected rewards, and goals are not realistic.

[felix]

I have two 1990 high school educated sons which turned these video lemons into lemon aid. One is a communications and people manager in DC (Washington) and another is a computer systems manager in LR (Little Rock). Birth years 1985 and 1982 respectively. Yes, being "wealthy" as parents helps. Must have money for education, which includes travel money to obtain same. NEVER provide money for entertainment of any kind, and that includes just about everything a child wants. My sons starved in that arena and very well knew they would need to provide fun stuff for themselves after they were gainfully employed and had money to spare for it.. ... felix

[wiljen]

I agree Felix that $ helps. But the thing I see most lacking amongst parents of kids my own daughters age is INVOLVEMENT. These parents are so darned politically correct that they refuse to say anything bad about their child and it is pathetic.

Kids need motivation and they need goals and expectations that challenge them in order to succeed. This current trend of just allow them to bloom on their own is utter and shear rubbish.

My daughter knows our expectations of her in school are that she do her best and get help when she struggles. Our rules are if you get a C and you haven't asked for help in that subject, you are in trouble. If we have worked with her and she still struggles so be it. We are not all going to be great at everything but without encouragement and motivation, they wont be good at anything.

[Finster101]

I'm 50. Growing up in Kentucky I have bailed hay. Topped, stripped, and hung tobacco. Chopped nine kinds of firewood for my Grandmother. If a family member or a friend called and said they needed help I would be there ASAP for free. You could not pay me enough to work tobacco or hay for hire though. Oddly enough I still enjoy chopping wood.

James

[felix]

So correct, Will! A parent has to attentive enough to see a "spark" in the child, and encourage that spark/idea to the hilt, whatever it takes. It makes no difference if the parents like it or not. Let the child change his mind on his own, and be prepared as a parent to switch gears in like support. Might get expensive, if that what it takes to proceed. ... felix

[alamogunr]

Our two sons finished high school in the late 80's. We financed college with them working summer jobs. One went on to get a PharmD and is minority owner of a pharmacy provider. Makes more money than I ever did. Good for him!

Younger son got PhD and teaches university. Will never be rich but will retire with more money than his older brother.

The one thing they agree on is that neither had as much spending money in college as the other guys. I can't describe what we did to cause them to turn out well. I guess it is a combination of a lot of things. I would not pretend to give advice to anyone. I think everyone has to do what is right for them.

I feel for those kids whose parents are more involved with themselves than with their kids.

[blackthorn]

Survival in todays economy expects a two family income! Once folks work all day 5 or 6 days a week--it is just too easy to give the kid 10 bucks and let him/her go to the mall just to get them out of your hair. My boys were born in 1960 and 1962. Oldest turned into a hard worker and wound up with a Millwright's ticket as well as a welding ticket and along the way he has learned to fabricate metal as well. The younger son just floats through life doing as little as possible but he is a great kid just as his brother. Both hunt and fish and the youngest ties flies as well. The younger son had one child (my grandaughter) now aged 27. She had a rough start in school and was failing in grade nine. I (fortunately) was in a position to put her in Sylvan personel tutering and she got straightend out OK. She will be here Monday and we will go up to the lake for ten days or so like we do every year. I am sure looking forward to the trip!!! ON TOPIC---Not all kids are worthless, just some and the ones that are stick out like a sore thumb!!

[azcruiser]

When the guy at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave gave
all the money to the Wall street elite to help stimulate the economy . When he could have just given each American family $17,000.00 .The people /country did nothing ?? Think we will ever learn ? Hope we do soon cause it doesn't look good
Good old days used to get 33cent a load to unload hay into the barn about 200 bales but gas was 34cents a gal

[Cap'n Morgan]

It's a worldwide thing. The people of Yorkshire had a tough childhood as well, but they were HAPPY [smilie=1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

[Geraldo]

I'm 50. Growing up in Kentucky I have bailed hay. Topped, stripped, and hung tobacco. Chopped nine kinds of firewood for my Grandmother. If a family member or a friend called and said they needed help I would be there ASAP for free. You could not pay me enough to work tobacco or hay for hire though. Oddly enough I still enjoy chopping wood.

James

When I read the beginning of this thread I thought, "People got paid for this?" My dad farmed part-time, so he might have slid me a couple bucks now and then, but there was no hourly wage. On my great-grandfather's farm nobody got paid but him. I think I might have been paid once, by my uncle's brother, but it was only a one night job on second crop hay. Then again it might have been a favor we did for him.

I did get paid maybe $2 an hour to work collecting sap during the season. First day was a cool spring day and I thought, "This here is some easy money. Just a walk in the woods." After that the weather got ugly and the suck factor went up pretty high. Sometimes it was just me and the guy driving the tractor.

But who cared? I had enough to buy poppers to fish with and black powder or shotgun shells. I had life pared down to the essentials then, it's only gotten more complicated since.

[wallenba]

My generation (I'm 59) played outdoors all day, even in the rain sometimes. We got tired and dirty and laughed about it. When we were older, working hard jobs outdoors came naturally. Today's playground is the living room rug in front of an xbox or some other contraption ( I had to ask permission just to watch TV). Most kids I know today just won't do that kind of work anymore. Especially since daddys wallet opens so easily.

[John Ross]

I married the farmers daughter. Rewards are great considering we have been married for 11 yrs and have 7 kids.

Garbear

What do you do in your spare time?

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

So my question is: What happened to boys raised during the 1990's?

they are in thier 30s and have families and full time jobs

i think you meant the kids born in the mid to late 90s 2011-16=1995

first there are fewer of them than there were in the 70s there was a glut of 16 year olds in 1970 they were baby boomers

hay isn't regular work it's feast and famine work, you need kids that are eather going to work a farm all summer or be available for a few days when the time is right , the kids with skills even if it is just the skill of showing up on time and work while there , have jobs in fast food , retail , and many other places that would make them generally unavailable for hay. the kids that would be available are generally to lazy to work or their parents wouldn't let them do something as dangerous as hay.

also hay around her is almost all large square or round bales now so no kids unless they are the farmers kids running the tractor or end loader to move them.

in the 90s i worked my construction job , the owner had a farm and we put up hay also , I was breaking the labor laws from the day i started working for him at age 12 till the day i turned 18 even then we broke a few laws , but he knew my dad and that made it ok , fast forward 16 years laws have gotten more restrictive and getting sued a much greater reality. when i was 14 i was working for a lumber yard also in addition to construction I lost the end of my thumb working as a independent contractor so they didn't need to know my age , they made me a real employee real fast so i could go to the hospital on their dime as i was the one holding the board not the one who smashed the end of my finger off although he was also 14 these are risks that not many employers are willing to take any more.

i am not making excuses for the lazy kids out there , just saying, and your barking at the wrong generation

[10x]

they are in thier 30s and have families and full time jobs

i think you meant the kids born in the mid to late 90s 2011-16=1995

first there are fewer of them than there were in the 70s there was a glut of 16 year olds in 1970 they were baby boomers

hay isn't regular work it's feast and famine work, you need kids that are eather going to work a farm all summer or be available for a few days when the time is right , the kids with skills even if it is just the skill of showing up on time and work while there , have jobs in fast food , retail , and many other places that would make them generally unavailable for hay. the kids that would be available are generally to lazy to work or their parents wouldn't let them do something as dangerous as hay.

also hay around her is almost all large square or round bales now so no kids unless they are the farmers kids running the tractor or end loader to move them.

in the 90s i worked my construction job , the owner had a farm and we put up hay also , I was breaking the labor laws from the day i started working for him at age 12 till the day i turned 18 even then we broke a few laws , but he knew my dad and that made it ok , fast forward 16 years laws have gotten more restrictive and getting sued a much greater reality. when i was 14 i was working for a lumber yard also in addition to construction I lost the end of my thumb working as a independent contractor so they didn't need to know my age , they made me a real employee real fast so i could go to the hospital on their dime as i was the one holding the board not the one who smashed the end of my finger off although he was also 14 these are risks that not many employers are willing to take any more.

i am not making excuses for the lazy kids out there , just saying, and your barking at the wrong generation

Back about the mid 1970s the large round bale came out. As well as bale loaders that do not need a person stacking behind a baler. In the early 1970s my father in law had a bale thrower behind the baler and it put bails onto the bail wagon. In the mid 1980s my brothers in law had a stacker that would take bales directly off the baler and build a stack on a wagon. When full the wagon was towed to the bale yard and then it would tilt to vertical and they bales would be stacked without being touched by human hands. When my brothers in law told me that they were now stacking bales without any humans touching them, I asked "how is that any different than before?", they didn't see the humour.

[PatMarlin]

It's a sad, sad state of affairs today. Sad for youngsters in this country.

I could really teach some useful skills, and could use some help as well. Carpentry, lumber milling, metal fabrication, machining, auto work, home repair, but the exposure and possible liability is so high no one wants to take the chance anymore. Few trusts kids today.

I have helped kids in the past when I knew their parents. They have all gone on to be successful productive adults. I still keep my eyes open.

[white eagle]

Quick hire a teenage while they still know it all
sadly that is the case more and more
lack of parental guidance and discipline
many are afraid to discipline their own children
to many time outs and not enough gettin the switch