Alliant 2400 regular vs magnum primers

[legi0n]

I was re-reading some old and new reloading books and in 357mag Alliant 2400 used to require magnum primers but not any more in the newer manuals.
So I decided to run an experiment to determine which is better.
I loaded 40 rounds with
15gr Alliant 2400
Winchester brass
Federal primers.
Gas checked (thanks Pat Marlins) cast bullets Lee 358-158-RF sized 0.3595" cast in the same session. Weight: 162gr lubed.
Homemade lube.
Medium crimp (no Lee FCD used)

I loaded one round regular one round magnum to minimize thrower variance. My Lyman 55 is pretty accurate (+/- 0.1gr) with 2400.

Guns: 6" Ruger GP 100 (0.3575" bore) and 18.5" Marlin 1894C (0.3565 bore)
Weather: sunny, 68ºF (20ºC), no wind

Shooting Chrony chronograph. RIP. The sandbag fell off the rest and terminated the experiment :mrgreen:

Ruger GP100
http://members.shaw.ca/le_r0umain/GP100_results.gif

Marlin 1894C
http://members.shaw.ca/le_r0umain/Marlin_1894C_results.gif

It seems the magnum primers yield less velocity but only marginally.
Can't really say there's a difference between regular and magnum primers for this powder and caliber.

[williamwaco]

I would call that a complete toss-up.

Those numbers are so close that you might get the reverse results if you try it six months later.

[jmsj]

legi0n,
Very intresting, was there a difference in the group size between the two loads using different primers?
Thanks, jmsj

[USSR]

E.K said years ago, that standard primers were best with 2400, and I tend to listen to him.

Don

[legi0n]

legi0n,
Very intresting, was there a difference in the group size between the two loads using different primers?
Thanks, jmsj

Not that I can tell. Yet I was not shooting for groups but rather trying to shoot straight through the chrony. Which in the end I did, pun intended :mrgreen:

[jmsj]

legi0n,
Thanks for the reply.
I was asking because this spring while cleaning up the cabinets below my reloading bench, I found an old 3lb. coffee can full of never fired .357 mag brass that I had primed. The note inside the can had the date, trim length and that I had primed them w/ CCI mag primers. I remember buying 500 cases on a Midway sale way back when but about that time I kind of quite shooting .357's. I had primed all these cases back in 1997.
Thanks, jmsj

[MtGun44]

magnum primers cause fliers with 2400 for me in .44 mag.

Bill

[Wilsknife]

I've had issues with 3578/2400 loads with incomplete burning. Any thoughts?

[Wilsknife]

Oops ...357 Mag/2400 powder/sm pistol magnum primers

[Char-Gar]

2400 has never required magnum primers.

Willsknife... Use more crimp and/or neck tension on the bullets.

[legi0n]

Oops ...357 Mag/2400 powder/sm pistol magnum primers

what barrel length?
what bullet weight?

[Wilsknife]

4" Security Six, SWC 158 gn lead

[MtGun44]

+1 Heavy crimp & good neck tension are imporant, as stated by Chargar.

[legi0n]

4" Security Six, SWC 158 gn lead

4" may not be enough to burn all of such a slow powder.
Quickload says only 83.4% of 15gr Alliant 2400 would burn in 4" of a 0.357" barrel.

[Char-Gar]

A 4" .357 Mag. will burn 2400 just fine.

[Bula]

When I down load 2400 in .357 or .44 mag, I got unburned powder granules. I now only use it for the higher velocity loads-good crimp helps too.

[btroj]

I too get unburned powder grains. I ignore them as they don't seem to affect anything at all.

[101VooDoo]

legi0n,

I tried a similar test last fall with Federal primers:

Powder Gns Boolit Gns Alloy BHN Primer ES Avg SD
2400 13.5 Saeco 382 156 H-Ball 15 SPP 71 1280.2 23.8
2400 13.5 Saeco 382 156 H-Ball 15 SPM 68 1272.7 22.1

Ruger Blackhawk Anniversary Temp 80-88 Degrees
.357 Magnum Wind <5
4 5/8 Date 2-Aug-10


Ended up with similar results; slightly slower, slightly tighter SD.

[legi0n]

legi0n,

I tried a similar test last fall with Federal primers:

Powder Gns Boolit Gns Alloy BHN Primer ES Avg SD
2400 13.5 Saeco 382 156 H-Ball 15 SPP 71 1280.2 23.8
2400 13.5 Saeco 382 156 H-Ball 15 SPM 68 1272.7 22.1

Ruger Blackhawk Anniversary Temp 80-88 Degrees
.357 Magnum Wind <5
4 5/8 Date 2-Aug-10


Ended up with similar results; slightly slower, slightly tighter SD.

Hi 101VooDoo,
Peer review is incredible helpful in such experiments. It either removes the subjective factor or points out the error in method. The former apparently in this case.

ps: I've got a brand new chrony :guntootsmiley:

[exile]

Interesting post. I just bought my first pound of 2400 the other day, have been using AA # 9 previously for magnum loads. So, is the consensus here that magnum primers should not be used with 2400, or that it makes no difference one way or another?

Mostly concerned because I have heard that using the wrong primer with a particular powder can produce pressure spikes?

exile

[101VooDoo]

ps: I've got a brand new chrony :guntootsmiley:

Hopefully one with remote electronics:p

[Three44s]

Speer used to publish their revolver data as if a gun said magnum on the side of it ......... then you'd better use magnum primers for any and all powders ..........

As another poster reported Elmer Keith stuck with standard primers ....... CCI in fact .......... for his 2400 loads.

The reason was that he felt he had lower peak pressures with the standards.

In my opinion ........... with a good crimp and good neck tension ........ 2400 lights easily. Magnum primers just hasten that .........

A newer Speer book listed STANDARD primers for 2400 and that was a break of many years of just plodding along with magnums in their listing. They also mention pressure spikes as the reason for that change ..... do tell!

NOW ............. a very esteemed member here as I recall with his significant measuring equipment found no pressure spikes with magnums .......... so his data confusses me ...... because this member is good .......... very good and I really respect his work.

For the time being, I am sticking with standards ....... and here is what I do:

I trim my cases to a very accurate length ....... you can't get a good crimp if you don't!

I inside flash hole debur ALL my metalics ........... I get better and more uniform burns with those better flash holes.

I have some very specific belling proceedures dependent on which slug I am actually loading ahead of 2400 (and also H110) Sometimes it calls for belling with a Lyman M die AND a light pass with the standard from the included die set.

I also crimp on a separate opperation. Often it involves a Lee FCD.

One should note that a few grains of material that looks like "unburnt powder" is in fact burnt powder.

If you work with the 4227's a while ............ you'll get desensitized to a bit of granules of what ever from 2400.

Finnally a four inch barrel and 2400 are perfectly compatible.

Three 44s

[curioushooter]

I wanted to resurrect this thread because I've been working with 2400 in a 4" model 19. Working at reduced power loads of 10-13.5 grains of 2400 pushing a 358429 sized 358 of 91-6-3 pb-sn-sb and lubed with carnuba blue. Starline brass trimmed with a Lee trim gauge and fed100 (standard small pistol) primers. Earlier in the day I shot a bunch of 38s that I knew to be accurate. I was astounded by the accuracy of 12.5-13 grain loadings of 2400. The only thing I'm critcal of is the abundant and evident unburnt powder. Just seems wasteful. I don't want to beyond 13 grains. Those soft federal primers were being distorted more than I like. And recoil was plenty. I guess there are two avenues of attack. One is more crimp the other is magnum primers. I already crimp the 358429 in its groove (inexplicably Lyman's cb manual 4 crimps in front of the driving band shortening oal, may be for n frames?) With Hornady crimp die without bullet seater. I first set the bullet with the flat faced expander die with flat nose boolits then I use the roll crimp die to roll it in. There is a limit to how far. Does lee make a collet crimp die for 357 like they have on rifles? And ideas for getting a better crimp? Is the unburnt powder something to just live with? I've explored other powders, win296 and 300mp. Both are too slow IMO.

[Three44s]

You are rolling the boolit in with a crimp die?

So I am assuming you are seating your boolit shy of the crimp groove and then doing the final seating by forcing the bullet just a bit deeper by squeezing it in by way of the case mouth?

If that is the case I would invest in a better seater stem for your seating die because the distortion of the case mouth is not going to do anything good for neck tension nor is potentially undersizing the boolit going to help tension.

When those small pistol primers are getting hammered I do not think you need to worry about unburnt powder. In my opinion you are looking at burnt residue.

2400 and some burnt residue go hand in hand. This clean notion about magnum revolver loads is misplaced by many in my opinion. The closest thing to clean and it is only some cleaner is with WW296 powder, use magnum primers there however.

Three44s

[onelight]

If the load is accurate and am happy with the velocity and it does not lead I am a happy shooter , I clean after every time out anyway.

[Walks]

I bought 500 Midway head stamped cases in.357Mag about 30yrs ago. Loaded them up with a HOT Load of Lyman #358156GC over 2400 and Win SP MAGNUM Primers.
Fired about 30+ in a M19(P&R) 4" bbl. Every primer was flattened. It never happened with Standard Primers.

Reserved the rest of the 500rds for My NM Blackhawk 6 1/2". And some in My Kids Marlin 1894CS, did not flatten all the primers, just some.

I reserve Mag Primers for WW296 these days.

[megasupermagnum]

I've found the same results with bluedot. Magnum primers can provide lower velocities, although not always.

Even with an equal or lower velocity, I don't think that necessarily means the pressures are the same or lower.

I don't like when people say 2400 or Unique or whatever powder doesn't "need" a magnum primer. If a magnum primer produces better accuracy, use it. Just work up loads accordingly.

[AlaskaMike]

I can't really comment on the Lee factory crimp die, but on all my magnum revolver loads I use a Redding profile crimp. From past descriptions of the Lee factory crimp (NOT the carbide factory crimp die used for taper crimp semi-autos), they seem pretty similar. I've been really happy with the Redding profile crimp.

[Norske]

Primers are important. I know because I had a hang fire from using the wrong primer with double-base ball powder in my 45-70. For AA9, consult the Western Powders reloading manual. Alliant's website should provide primer recommendation for 2400. My largest powder charges are for my 338WM rifle. I tried magnum primers and only got increased group size, no increase in velocity with my loads using Rx22 and H4831SC.
As for the unburned powder often mentioned in 2400 discussions, have you ever swept it up and tried to ignite it with a match or lighter? I have, and I'm of the opinion it's odd-colored ashes because I couldn't light it.

[Photog]

If the 2400 unburnt powder seems wasteful, switch over to N350 or Power Pistol. Both are faster, you will use less powder and get nearly the same velocity from a pistol barrel.

[Gunner38]

I use 2 different loads in my 4" 357, one is 2.8 gr. of Bullseye, and the other is 12 gr. of 2400 (both in New Starline 38 +p brass), with CCI-500 primers in both loads and PENN 158 gr. TCBB lead Boolits. Of the 2 loads the 2400 load is noticeably cleaner (actually very clean, which took me quite by surprise). I use the same heavy crimp for both loads and a LEE FCD for crimp ONLY (I seat in one operation then crimp in another).

I have slugged the bore and found a .3565" measurement, so I resize my store bought boolits to .3580" (.3575" would be perfect but this is as close as I can get with my LEE sizing dies). I'm thinking of taking a LEE .3570" sizing die and having it honed out to .3575" and seeing what difference that would make. Accuracy maybe, but would .0005" make it an even cleaner load, or not worth the trouble.

[USSR]

I have slugged the bore and found a .3565" measurement, so I resize my store bought boolits to .3580" (.3575" would be perfect but this is as close as I can get with my LEE sizing dies). I'm thinking of taking a LEE .3570" sizing die and having it honed out to .3575" and seeing what difference that would make. Accuracy maybe, but would .0005" make it an even cleaner load, or not worth the trouble.

Match your bullet size to your throat size and don't worry about the bore size.

Don

[Gunner38]

The way I was taught many decades ago was that Bore slugging to get the bore measurements was the number one measurement to obtain, and secondly the cylinder throat dimensions were to be considered. Have I been doing it wrong for 45 years ??

[tazman]

The way I was taught many decades ago was that Bore slugging to get the bore measurements was the number one measurement to obtain, and secondly the cylinder throat dimensions were to be considered. Have I been doing it wrong for 45 years ??

You need both measurements. If the cylinder throats are smaller than the groove diameter you will have issues no matter what size the boolits start out.
I had one like that once.

[buckwheatpaul]

E.K said years ago, that standard primers were best with 2400, and I tend to listen to him.

Don

And I agree as well.....standard primers seem to work the best with 2400.....also Ken Waters did a similar test with his 357 carbine article.....standard primers came out as a great primer for 2400.

[Gunner38]

You need both measurements. If the cylinder throats are smaller than the groove diameter you will have issues no matter what size the boolits start out.
I had one like that once.

Yes, one Does need both measurements to do the job right on a revolver, and I know that, I just worded my response poorly, reading back now, very poorly. Apologizes for that.

[rockshooter]

the Lee part number for the collet type .357 sizing die is 90813. Midway lists them on sale for $12.99 with 3 left.I've been using mine for years- really like it.
Loren

[Lloyd Smale]

2400 is a powder that works with both. It doesn't need a mag primer even at full power in large cases but sometimes a mag primer will give better accuracy. When I use it I try both. Especially when the case is big enough to start with the number 4.

[Conditor22]

In an 03A3 I confirmed what Larry Gibson said, I used dacron over 2400 and got much tighter groups.