38 wcf

[Marvin S]

I'm new to reloading this cartridge and just read the article in the new Handloader mag about the 44 and 38 WCF. It stated most repeating rifle chambers have large chambers which allow the shoulder to be moved forward a considerable amount when fired which makes the neck area very short. It also states most dies do not restore the neck back to the so-called correct dimensions. I have a very nice original 92 Win, that upon inspecting fired cases sure enough it moves the case body forward a fair amount. I also have a new set of Hornady dies and they do move the shoulder back but can't decide if that is good or bad. The article claims it is a good thing to get more purchase on the boolit.

Why do you suppose manufactures cut chambers in this manner in the first place, seems kind of dumb to me.

[August]

Hornady dies are indeed the solution for this caliber. They seem to be the only manufacturer that gets the shoulder back far enough without having to alter the sizing die. You're on the right track.

SAMMI came into being in the 1960s (I believe).

The 38 WCF cartridge is 135 years old. Lots of things happened in that time and there was no industry wide standard for the cartridge. It worked in Colt's and it worked in Winchesters. That's all it needed to do.

The case gauge you need to pay attention to is the chamber of your rifle. Once you get your process down where the rounds will run through the rifle, you're done. Most pistols, for whatever reason, have more generous chambers than do rifles. Don't know why, that's just my experience with the cartridge.

If you can get by with less sizing, that's all the better.

The short neck makes this cartridge tricky in the crimping department. Most of us fill it to the top with black powder and rely on the powder column to keep the bullet from telescoping back into the case in the rifle's tubular magazine.

You MUST use a bullet with a groove for roll crimping. That will keep the bullet from sliding out to the front. Because of this, 10 mm pistol bullets are not suitable as they rely on taper crimps and do not have a crimp groove.

Again, when the round chambers in your rifle, you have achieved correct dimensions. That does not mean it will run in any other rifle ! That's the way it is with the WCF cartridges and it is their age that makes it this way.

The virtue of the cartridge is that the neck and shoulder expand during firing and seal the chamber and the action of the gun from black powder smoke and fouling. That is the reason why it is the single, best black powder round for pistols and rifles. Better even than the vaunted 44-40. Before the bullet starts to move, the case expands to seal the gun from gases blowing back into the action. The design of the cartridge also makes it run like greased lightning through the lever gun -- tapered at the front, small bullet going into big hole.

The 1873 rifle and the WCF cartridges were designed as a system -- gun dependent on cartridges and vice-versa. All subsequent applications of the cartridge to different types of actions were less than optimal and involved compromise.

It was a purebred when introduced, but has been bastardized over the centuries.

[Piedmont]

It sures seems that sizing that shoulder back every time would lead to short case life. I try to do the opposite with everything I load, but admit I do not load either the .38 or .44 WCF.

[Marvin S]

I have been using the SAECO mold with a crimp groove and it seems to work well. Also I have been loading the 25 and 32 WCF cartridges for many years and have not seen the big change in fired cases like I do with the 38. I don't have a 44 yet but I'm sure one will show up sometime.
Plan on using the 38 and 32-40 for deer next year.

[MtGun44]

Have not loaded either cartridge, but the analog is the .303 Brit - rimmed with a shoulder.
Shoulder is not involved in headspacing, so you should probably be pushing it back just
enough to chamber in your rifle. .303 Brit cases also move the shoulder forward a bunch
because they keep it far enough back to chamber with a cruddy, muddy and badly made
chamber - and it will not affect the headspace.

I think the factory ammo issue is that they have to work in the WORST possible chamber,
so they push the shoulder way back - SINCE THERE IS NO CONSEQUENCE FOR HEADSPACE.

We have said many times here that you have the advantage a making ammo exactly for YOUR
gun, and do not have to fit them all like the factory does.

Pushing back the shoulder farther than necessary to chamber is going to help nothing and hurt
your brass life. It will work fine, if pushed back farther than needed, but is unnecessary.

Bill

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I have Winchester & Marlin rifles in both calibers.
First I have brass dedicated to each rifle as at least with my rifles the chambers and throats vary . I do not full length resize but basicly resize the necks only. Brass that is fired at low BP pressures will rechamber in my rifles & should in yours unless you have a bolt / locking system problem.
Also check the throat diameter. My 73´s & early 92´s all have fat throats. Loading a fat soft boolit will accomidae that situation. Especialy with smokeless powder.. you need to seal that throat area with the boollet base or you are not going to see the best accuracy. You might even be in for a bad lesson about lead minning.
Mike in Peru

[w30wcf]

August,
Excellent post. The only thing I would differ with you on was
........That is the reason why it is the single, best black powder round for pistols and rifles. Better even than the vaunted 44-40....

I have loaded and shot both cartridges and I did not see any real advantage of one over the other except that the 44-40 can shoot heavier bullets well.

I find that the Magma molds for both cartridges are pretty ideal in that they work very well in the fired case neck lengths so no sizing back of the case neck length is required.

w30wcf