Universal Clay's 45 Colt Loads and Is it really 1:1 interchangeable with Unique?

[Ziptar]

I got a 1 lb of Universal Clays as part of a brass trade I made. I am eager to give it a try.

Hodgdon only lists one 45 Colt 250 GR. CAST LRNFP Load for it, Min 4.2 grains, max 5.1 grains.

While doing searches on the Intarwebz for more load data I've come across a bunch of links to different forum posts where folks claim they use Universal Clays using Unique load data, in other words they are interchangeable.

Alliant's load data for Unique using a 250 gr Speer LSWC has Min 5.5 grains, max 9.5 grains.

That doesn't look interchange able to me.

So......

My Main Question:
Whats a good 45 Colt load for 250 gr RNFP and Universal Clay's in my Marlin? I would imagine all the way to Max isn't a problem for the Marlin.

Secondary Question:
Can the two powders really interchange or are those that claim to do so on the Intarwebz just lucky they've not lost any appendages thus far?

[felix]

45 Colt is the worst of examples to follow because gun limitations vary all over the place for the cartridge. Take the minimum range given in any book for the weakest gun on-hand. For the strongest gun on-hand you can use the maximum range given. Yes, the powders are interchangeable for the most part, minus individual lot manufacturing variations. ... felix

[Shooter6br]

i use Universal ( Drop the clays part too confusing) in applications for Unique. It measures better and yes cleaner(Unique aka :flamming dirt") I buy either one depends on what is available. I like Universal best.

[Ziptar]

45 Colt is the worst of examples to follow because gun limitations vary all over the place for the cartridge. Take the minimum range given in any book for the weakest gun on-hand. For the strongest gun on-hand you can use the maximum range given. Yes, the powders are interchangeable for the most part, minus individual lot manufacturing variations. ... felix

You are right on the 45 Colt Variations, I hadn't thought about that.

45 ACP is much more comparable, so I'd guess they pretty much interchange.

Hodgdon Universal: 230 GR. LRN Min. 4.5 Max 5.4
Alliant Unique: 230 gr Speer LRN Min 4.4 Max 5.8



i use Universal ( Drop the clays part too confusing) in applications for Unique. It measures better and yes cleaner(Unique aka :flamming dirt") I buy either one depends on what is available. I like Universal best.

LOL!! Unique = "flamming dirt".... I haven't head that one yet.

The "Clays" part is confusing but, I just wanted to be clear so I used whats on the container.

The Hodgdon Online "Reloading Data Center (http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp)" doesn't spell it out that I can see, The pull down only has "Universal" and "Clays" listed.

http://www.ziptar.com/reloading/hodgdon.jpg

Since they make a "Clays", "Universal Clays", and "International Clays" Looks like they drop "Clays" part for "Universal Clays" so that makes sense, I guess. (I'm assuming the "International" version goes bang is 27 languages. :p )

I'll refer to it as "Universal" from here on out.

As to the measuring I use dippers or a Lyman "Acculine Pistol" powder measure, or an old Pacific Standard powder measure, thus far neither has had a problem with Unique.

Thanks for the clarifications and info, I load up some Universal and try it out.

[zxcvbob]

Universal Clays is about 10% faster-burning than Unique. You can use them in exactly the same applications, but Universal will use a little less powder than Unique for an equivalent load, and Unique will usually give a little higher performance especially at the top end.

International Clays is closer to Titegroup or Green Dot, but there is almost no handgun load data for it because it gets "peaky" really fast. I use it anyway for some target loads and really like it, but they are low pressure loads that I worked up carefully.

[Hammerhead]

The only cartridges I saw with direct compare data was 10mm auto and .45acp. In those examples the data was quite different for the two powders.

Interestingly in 10mm data both powders start at 5.1 grains @ 800 fps (190 gr bullet) by the time you reach 900 fps Unique maxes out at 6.0 grain where Universal uses 5.5.
Universal goes all the way up to 1,050 fps using 6.1 grains.

So I would say no, they are very different.

Universal is a very nice powder for a wide variety of cartridges. I use it from 9mm to .44 special. very clean.

I agree about dropping 'clays' when refering to Universal. Naming it 'Universal Clays' was a bad move on Hodgdon's part IMO.

[220swiftfn]

Well, if we're talking about 45 Colt (Long, whatever, the one from 1873......) :) for loads in the 14000 psi range (Saa's and clones) I've been seeing 7.8grs. Universal as the max load.


Dan

[Rocky Raab]

Hercules/Alliant had such a lock on the shotgun propellant market - where clay target shooters are by far the largest customer base - that Hodgdon needed powders to compete with them.

They came out with three: Clays, to compete with RedDot, International to compete with the slightly slower Green Dot, and Universal to compete with the even slower Unique. Then, to capitalize on how "universal" that last powder was in both shotshell and handgun use, they called it - Universal.

In actual use, Universal is just a wee bit faster than Unique. It also isn't quite as flexible, but is nearly so. It deserves its name. It does measure out a lot better and burns a lot cleaner, two traits that outweigh its small downside.

Except for maximum charges, you can think of Universal as interchangeable with Unique. But near the top, use a bit of added caution.

[Shooter6br]

Usually i dont care Unique is "Dirty) but since i got a Smith Mod25-2 ( 45ACP with moon clips) my hands get quite sooty. I put baby wipes in my car( actually geriatric wipes from work) to clean my hands after i get back in the car.

[truckmsl]

"Except for maximum charges, you can think of Universal as interchangeable with Unique. But near the top, use a bit of added caution. "

This is exactly my experience with Universal , especially the last part of the sentence.

[LVRFAN]

Ditto. Exactly why I stick to "dirty" old UNIQUE. A little dirt doesn't bother me.

[Ziptar]

Thus far I like Unique and haven't used anything else since I started reloading but, I figure I've got it so I'll try it.

[MtGun44]

Unique is unique, as in irreplacable.

[zxcvbob]

I really like Rex-3 (single-base equivalent of Universal) but as soon as I discovered it they went out of business.

[RalphS]

My RUGER ONLY load for Universal in 45LC 250gr RNFP is
10.0 gr Univ for 1086 fps avg
9.5 gr. Univ for 1050 fps avg
9.0 gr. Univ for 982 fps avg

This was chrono'd from a 4 inch Redhawk. Do not use these loads on older guns. I really like the 10.0gr load. My Redhawk handles it with ease.

btw - these are published loads on loaddata.com