How to keep patch from tearing?

[brstevns]

How do you keep the Paper patch from tearing when seating with a bullet seating die? It seems as if the patch is catching in die neck? I am new to PP so need help.

[grullaguy]

After chamfering and belling the case mouth I hand seat the bullets. I gave up on die seating as I had the same problems you describe.
If you intend to hunt with your bullets, I suppose you could give the neck a bit of a squeeze with the seating and crimping die after hand seating. You don't want to give a hard crimp as it is possible that the crimp will cause patch damage on firing.

[CJR]

Here's is what I do:
1. Size/deprime the case
2. Run the case into a Lyman M-style die (i.e. two diameter pilot), which bells the case mouth slightly.
3. Prime the case, powder fill,and seat PPCB with a Forster Benchrest seating die without crimp.

When I first started high velocity 30 cal. PP, I kept stripping the PP off in the bore, got heavy leading and poor accuracy. I use a LBT 150 gr. CB that has two grease grooves and a Lyman 311291 which has two grease grooves + a crimping groove. I discovered that if I wetted the PP with only water, the PP would shrink into the grease grooves alright. However, when I would final lube/size my PPCB to 0.308"D, the PP would strip off the CB during sizing or in the barrel because the paper is weak and can't anchor itself in the two grease grooves (shallower after CB sizing) strongly enough. My solution was to use a 50% mixture of water and Carpenter's glue. The Vellum paper shrunk, the glue/paper hardened in the grease grooves and that anchored the PP to the CB. Never slipped another PP during final sizing/lubing or actual firing. The barrel rifling cut the PP on its way to the muzzle, and the PP disintegrated at the muzzle. I spray my bare CB with dry film Teflon in order to size it to 0.301"D and the Teflon coating never allows the PP to stick to the CB. However, the glue-stiffened paper, in the grease grooves, keeps the PP anchored well enough so it can reach the muzzle. On exiting the muzzle, the bullet RPM , aerodynamic forces plus the Teflon coating helps the rifling-cut PP explode off the CB.

My loads are currently at 3000+fps, 1 MOA or slightly less. Currently, I'm tweaking my loads with different lubes to maintain consistent hot temperature accuracy. I'm real close.

Hope my experience helps you.

Best regards,

CJR

[303Guy]

What exactly is 'carpenters glue'?

I've used 'cold glue' diluted and also school 'paper glue'. These are rubbery when dry although they do soak into the paper and 'dissappear'. I currently only glue the trailing corner of the patch to keep the patch secure.

I am using smooth sided tapered boolits of pretty soft alloy and weak writing pad paper. The boolit surface grips the patch on entering the bore (also on being seated). You could say the paper and lead bite into each other. (It won't work with hard alloys for high velocity). I do need to lube the patch surface on the case lube pad. That lube quickly soaks away but is helpful in seating the boolit on my hunting loads which do need press seating. However, I size the necks so that the boolit can be started into the neck by a twisting and pressing by hand. The patch itself gets compressed in the process and gets to tight with depth to fully seat by hand. The neck expansion is too small to measure. Once seated the boolits cannot be pulled out without damage, i.e. using pliers and the press. The paper expands in the neck tightening the neck grip.

If I get the forward shank diameter wrong or the neck 'tension' wrong and the round is chambered with force, the boolit can be pulled out the case with the camming action of the bolt. Mostly, I make the patched boolit large enough at the base shank to seat securely without sizing the neck. I can do that having a latche and using nose pour solid body molds. The downside is these molds are slow to use.

[brstevns]

Both Elmer's and Tite-Bond make a yellow glue that is wood glue. Use gallons of it when I was still doing furniture repair and refinishing work. Elmers white glue is a hobby and paper glue.

[docone31]

You have to make the neck so the entry is not sharp. That will tear the paper. I used a pair of Chain Link pliers to round out the neck when I first started. I would wobble the pliers in the neck and the entry would flair.
After you wrap the patch, and it shrinks, to size it, you use a little wax. That makes it slip into the case. The die then makes the neck tight to the casting.
The sizeing die compresses the tail, which makes a check of sorts.
It all works out, keep at it.

[brstevns]

You have to make the neck so the entry is not sharp. That will tear the paper. I used a pair of Chain Link pliers to round out the neck when I first started. I would wobble the pliers in the neck and the entry would flair.
After you wrap the patch, and it shrinks, to size it, you use a little wax. That makes it slip into the case. The die then makes the neck tight to the casting.
The sizeing die compresses the tail, which makes a check of sorts.
It all works out, keep at it.

It seems to be tearing near the ogive and a little below on the bullet. I am thinking that the seating die is to small above the neck area and the patch is catching here. Maybe polishing out this area a little would help?

[6.5 mike]

Try raising your seating die 1 turn up, then lower the stem to what OAL you need. This should tell you if the die is "catching" the patch. I started using a VLD neck reamer on the inside of some cases, this has also helped starting the pp'ed boolit into the neck along with a light flare on the case mouth. It seems to work best on smaller diameter necks.

[DIRT Farmer]

At this point, as I have had poor luck trying to patch wet, I was always the odd kid, I patch dry with a touch of paste wax on the outer layer of paper. I twist the patch to tighten when starting the package then finish in an over size die, ie 8x57 for 303. The case has been through a Lyman M die and anealed each shot.

[brstevns]

It does look like the die is catching the patch. Trying to patch for the 6.5 Jap. Maybe try what Dirt Farmer said and use a different seating die. I could try a 308 win die as I have a set of those

[CJR]

303Guy,

As "brstevns" mentioned, Carpenter's Glue is a high strength wood glue that is made by Elmer's or Titebond. The Elmer's carpenters glue that I use is waterproof Type 1, a polyvinyl acetate (PVAc) based adhesive, that dries hard and gives stiffness to my PP and anchors it to the CB. PVAc is typically a high- strength adhesive used in most all the carpenter glues.

In the NRA's Cast Bullet manual, the NRA did testing with both smooth bullets and grooved bullets and concluded grooves were necessary to "anchor" the PP to the bullet. Their PP designed bullet was cast at 0.301"D and the groove depths were essentially not reduced when sized to 0.301"D. For those interested or don't have the NRA Manual, I quote the NRA's comments for their PP designed bullet from p. 75; "The patch leading edge should turn down into the chosen groove to prevent STRIPPING back; when the groove is just covered the patch turns down into it properly. The first three grooves are required for this purpose, depending on length of coverage. The two rear grooves never come into use for this but have some ANCHORING effect". However, Paul Matthews (The Paper Jacket book) seems to like smooth sided bullets for his lower velocity loads.

So with my two grease groove bullets (LBT & Lyman), with shallow depths caused by sizing, I found for high velocity loads that my patch was not being anchored to the CB and was stripping either in final sizing or when fired. I got lots of bore leading and poor accuracy. The glue trick, told to me by LBT's Veral Smith, helped me to anchor my PP while in the bore. At muzzle exit, my Teflon dry sprayed CB helped to release the cut PP, which disintegrated into small pieces.

That's what worked for me with my regular designed cast bullets and high velocity loads. Probably, a PP designed CB, with deeper grooves, would work without the glue+water wetting PP solution.

Finally, 303Guy I notice a lot of your PP, after firing, are in rather large pieces. Though I have been on my hands and knees looking for PP pieces on the ground, I haven't found any recently. What I do get at the range is a lot of strange looks and comments like, "Oh that's the PP guy!". Could it be that your PP is slipping/stripping off the CB in the bore and the whole PP following behind the CB and then being deposited in large pieces?

Best regards,

CJR

[brstevns]

At this point, as I have had poor luck trying to patch wet, I was always the odd kid, I patch dry with a touch of paste wax on the outer layer of paper. I twist the patch to tighten when starting the package then finish in an over size die, ie 8x57 for 303. The case has been through a Lyman M die and anealed each shot.

Was aslo thinking about a Lee crimp die.

[drhall762]

Another good source for that info, and all PP boolits is Paul Matthews book, The Paper Jacket. Just finished it and it is a very complete guide. Got mine new from Amazon for $15.00.

[303Guy]

Good question CJR.
The large patch pieces I get are from under-power loads. One piece is distinctly the piece where the boolit is under bore size and the transition cut is very sharp and there is well defined rifling impressions on it although it is the inner layer. (I should take a pic of it and post it). I can identify the pieces of the patch because they have writing on them or ink lines from the edges. Also, rifling impressions in the patch pieces give a clear indication of where those bits were during the trip down the bore. Those same lower velocity boolits show the paper impressions on them including rifling impressions. Faster boolits with fully disintegrated patches still show enough un-impact damage to show that there was no alloy to bore contact. I also get little rings and bigger washer shaped base bits depending on the patch configuration. That's the nice thing about having a test tube to fire into - one can recover the residues from the shot. Impact damage at higher velocities does limit what can be learned at those velocities although it does show up brittle boolits shattering and more ductile but tougher boolit 'splashing' yet holding together versus 'splashing' into droplets or rings. All part of the fun!:p

Oh yes, the use of wheat bran filler pretty much precludes the patch traveling down the bore behind the boolit. It could still bunch up and sit on the base shank but there is no visible evidence of that happening. I have found possible evidence of the patch slipping pag a bit forming crincle patterns on the base shank but I'm uncertain whether or not those are patch crinkles or alloy hardness rings from the casting process (which does show as concentric rings on the boolit).

Another thing is that two of my guns that produced the effects noted did shoot very well.

Nevertheless, I will be taking heed of the suggestion of patch slipping and will watch out for any evidence of that happening. (Ummm .... Did I say I've never found evidence of patch slip? I seem to recall I have seen it happening but don't recall what the patch pieces looked like. Maybe I have a photo of them somewhere). I may have changed my technique to correct the slipping problem? Hell, I don't remember so good no more!:veryconfu

[303Guy]

OK. Here's the patch piece - front view and back view. This piece made through a bundled rag and into the soft sand catch medium. The pics are a bit large. Photobucket is just so slow tonight I can't resize them.:sad:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/DSCF5512_edited.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/DSCF5516_edited.jpg