new member want's some ideas... input on project

[Onlymenotu]

1st of all want to say HI I've been lurking about and learning for several month's now and have done a bit of casting with pretty good luck i might add * tks to reading up and learning from the wealth of information on the board*

I've cast some softlead LEE C452-300-RF and married them to a Harvester Muzzleloading sabot & 85 grns of loose triple 7 to be shot out of my NEF 50Cal Sidekick ,,, witch has become my prefered deer hunting gun :-D and durning this process of casting my boolits and working up my hunting load ,I got my 13 year old daughter involved * witch is always a good thing* and she started shooting it too:mrgreen: it didn't take long to realize the little black sabots soon add up the dollars so i then bought a LEE 50 Cal 250 grain R.E.A.L for plinking and we've shot it a little bit out of the Sidekick and a CVA hawkins style muzzleloader ( or let me repraze that I've shot it out of the CVA,,,,,, she says the gun is butt ugly and won't shoot it) I do tend to enjoy casting and do a bit of relaoding for a Savage 340E 223 and the dreaded 55grn sx j-wordbullet so I have a RCBS rockchucker so I got to thinking I'd like to keep the daughter and in the future the 5 year old son Involved the shooting and reloading aspect of it so I'm wanting to get into the casting and reloading aspect of a BlackPowder Cartridge gun to witch I will be reloading with the substitutes* I can hear the boo's and hiss's now* but I have several pounds witch I've purchased on clearance over the years from wally-world so it me(& the daughter and she is going to be the tuffest to keep involved) the rcbs rockchucker and the substitutes those are the absolutes of the senero so far and this is where you/ the members become involved... what do i want to buy as in a cal.? 45/70 -38-55 - 45 colt......or any others i'm not aware of I'll need to be able to load it down so it don't kick the snot out of her or I don't see her intrest lasting long * he he and I don't need to prove to her the ole man is tuff [smilie=1: but on the other hand i want the most bang for the buck when it comes to brass,,, I don't want to make it but cutting it down and fireforming it ect ect,,,,,,, i want to buy the brass not make the brass... what cal has the most molds available for it * i'm gussing the 45/70 series * but I havent realy checked into it ,,, what cases to buy brass or plated...... does one hold up better to the blackpowder/substitutes...I'm pretty sure the gun will be a NEF/H&R of some sort * and they list all of the above guns and cal's in production* and my daughter realy likes the breakaction I mentioned a lever gun and she sortra scoffed and didn't like the idea mutch.

so basicly i'm asking what cal is the most useable/most options for my senero this will most likely a stricly paperpunching gun with cast boolits and bp/substitutes with longest possable shots is 300 yards........ but in all honesty 100 to 150 yard .
I'm not looking for the fastest or hardest hitting....... and would prefer to stick to a plain base boolit..... but would go the gascheck if it's required....


he he so talk to me........ ask me ?'s I'm sure I've left out more * info* than I've put in [smilie=1: :roll:

[9.3X62AL]

All the calibers you list are useful.......the 45-70 likely has the most mold types available, and has the most power to exploit if hunting becomes a venue you want to explore with the kids. 1873-level loads in the 45-70 aren't hard on young shooters, my girls shoot them a LOT in my Ruger #1. Reminds me a 20-gauge shotgun, really.

[Wayne Smith]

Think about the 44-40 and the .45 Colt in a rifle application. I shoot a Uberti 1873 repro Short Rifle in BP and it's a hoot. Gets a fair amount of attention at the range, too. Just the size for a girl, not too big, and not butt ugly. Shoots plain base acww just fine, and I get about 1200fps out of the rifle and 40gr compressed BP under a 200gr bullet in the 44-40.

It's really not adequate if you want to take her hunting unless you can keep her to under 70yd shots. No reason not to load the substitutes, I just haven't done it. The guns and brass are readily available.

If you are going to shoot BP Cartridge get a case polisher, tumbler or vibratory, and some ceramic media. It's the best for cleaning those cases.

[mooman76]

I say go with the 45 colt. The 45-70 is a good gun and I own one but it will have a good kick. About like your muzzel loader at full power with the REAL bullet. Plenty of 45 bullet options and it won't take allot of powder like the 45-70 either and mor common to find brass and bullets as well as easier to load!

[Onlymenotu]

Tks guys for the replys

@ Deputy Al ... the 1st cal that popped to my mind was 45/70.. and if I can get it down to 20ga recoil I think we could live with that... as she will shoot some trap with my old 20 ga.. and even use my 12 ga a time or two

@ Wanye is the 44-40 still in production? * sorry my bad....I haven't or don't keep up on the gun stuff like I did * pre-married days* I don't want to mess with reaming ect ect.. and the cost of gunsmiths... I want a buy and shoot sorta gun... Not buy a gun and rework it in to gun of another flavor.... not for this project anyway!


again Tks for the replys

[Onlymenotu]

again tks for the replys guys

and stated above the gun will be a paper punching gun...* i like the idea off big game rifle* but we won't be hunting with it for deer it's handgun,shotgun&muzzleloading rifle only,,,,,, no centerfire rifles

@Moonman76 the 45 colt was my second choice..... but that being said I'm trying to keep a open mind to all choices/ options at this time....

[waksupi]

How about a .38-55?

[Wayne Smith]

Uberti is corrently chambering 44-40 as is Pietta. This means Cimmerron and all those who relable the Pietta's and Uberti's will chamber it as well. Cases are readily available, I've bought them at my local gun shop that carries reloading supplies. If you go this way get plenty, they're thin and bend easily.

Go to Uberti's website and look at what's available. I like the 1873 and 1895 Winchester copies for this application simply because they are relatively light and short. Easily handled. The Sharps is a big sucker, heavy and hard to handle, at least mine is. A Rolling Block would be the action I'd look for if I wanted to go to the larger, rifle calibers. Again, it's not you that you are buying for, it's your daughter and later your son. These pistol caliber rifles in BP are like handling a grown up .22, not like lugging around a cannon.

Investigate what the Cowboy shooters are using. Lot of 44-40s, 38-40s, and .45 Colts being used.

[Wayne Smith]

Oh, and read up plenty on loading PB Cartridge. Mike Ventruino has done some excellent articles. The point to remember is that you must fill the case with powder, no matter how much that is. There can be no airspace. To go slower go to a larger grit of powder, not less powder.

[Boz330]

The New England 38-55 seems to fit all of your criteria. Recoil will be much more tolerable with a case full of powder(which is mandatory with BP or substitutes). If you are going to load with smokeless then the 45-70 can be toned down to be pretty reasonable. With a case full of powder though the recoil is going to be brutal with almost any bullet and a young girl shooting it.

Bob

[Beerd]

How about putting one or two (or three) lubed felt wads under a 45-70 boolit?
The accuracy might not be there, but it should help with BP fouling and reduce recoil by using less powder.
..

[Onlymenotu]

again tks for the replys so far all the cal's I mentioned it my starting post have been mentioned a time or two with the a along with a new cal the 44-40

I'm still unsure/debating what cal to buy,,,seen the 38-55 listed did a little reach on it * and I do mean little...... so this may not the fact/typical/justified* but seemed it was hard to come up cases at times,,,,,, and when into great detail on how to make them from 30-30 cases and as I stated in the opening post..I don't want to make the cases..I want the case readily available

a point was brought up about the case must be full of blackpower/substitutes when loading the shell * witch I already knew...but tks for the info and its better to assume I'm a complete idiot on any given topic...... than to think I alread knew the info..... and don't... I would mutch rather be told 10 times something I do know,,,, than possable not be told and it be fatal* then it also was mentioned about adding extra lubed felt wads to take up the case space.

witch brings me up this ? I've seen it on this fourm and other fourms about adding Cream of Wheat as a filler....... say in the case of a 45/70 case say 40 or 45 grains of powder-substitute and the remaining case filled with C.O.W.!! full to the top with or with out a lube cookie/wad to give the full load/ compression required!!
Anybody try this...... is it safe I mean I understand it has no explosive power... but is going to be like sending a few grains of sand down the barrel with each shot..... etching and eroding the barrel-lands-riflings with each shot? or will the heat and force destory the C.O.W to non-harsh dust at best?

sorry for all the ?'s,,, but I think these thing are a must know topic,,, before I in good faith pick the cartridge

[Dale53]

Since you are a fairly new reloader, I suggest that you stick with a cartridge choice that is EASY and PRACTICAL to reload. I am a 45/70 fan but not in a light rifle for a girl. Typical black powder loads will beat the snot out of her (that is why hundreds, if not thousands, of Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette shooters go for lighter recoiling rifles like the 40/65). Anyone can shoot one or two 45/70's but when you want to shoot 50-100 in an afternoon, it gets real tiresome. Silhouette rifles weigh 12 lbs, too, which really helps on recoil.

I definitely vote for a pistol caliber cartridge. I have loaded hundreds of .45 Colts with black powder and Pyrodex in competition with excellent results in revolvers. They can be a bit heavy in the recoil department for youngsters but in a rifle they should do just fine.

The .44 Magnum has never been loaded with BP to my knowledge, but there is absolutely no reason that it couldn't be. It can used with lighter recoiling .44 Special cartridges. PYrodex will work well in either cartridge.

My choice for a youngster would be a .357 magnum. Again, it can be loaded with BP or a substitute or even the .38 Special Cases. Recoil will be minimum in a rifle.

All three of the above can be readily reloaded with smokeless powder, also (as should be obvious). Smokeless, in the form of Unique in anyone of the three cases would be a lot less expensive to load in moderate loads and would be a lot simpler.

I introduced my two sons to serious IPSC competition when they were 13 and 15 in the open class with full house 1911 forty fives. They did extremely well, also winning their class on several occasions (not children's classes but against the "big boys"). One of my fondest memories was winning a combat rifle match (with sixty entries from all over of GOOD shooters) with my two sons taking second and third. My chest was so puffed up that I could hardly breathe:mrgreen: Incidentally, this was with a HK 91 .308 rifle. The next time we arrived at that match location, some months later, I overheard a voice say, as we got out of the car, "Oh Sh*t, there's the McGees":mrgreen:. How sweet it was:drinks:.

So, I wish you well with your kids for some of the best times to be had in this life. My kids are grown, now, and have their own families and they, too, are enjoying life with wonderful children.

Keep the recoil on the soft side so you don't cause them to lose interest. I believe that is a must. You might want to make arrangements to try out something similar to what you are considering at the local range (if you have a local range). Most, if not all, shooters that I know will gladly make that available to you. There is really no substitute for trying one on for size before you buy. But keep in mind that there is a heck of a difference in shooting once or twice compared to fifty to one hundred rounds at a session.

Dale53

[Boz330]

http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe/search?TabID=2&category_selector=9315&search_keywords=38-55+Brass&Click+to+Begin+Search.x=9&Click+to+Begin+Search.y=13

Above is a link to Midway for brass.It is even reasonable just regular reloading dies, no special tools needed.

As far as fillers I have used them and in a straight wall case it shouldn't be a problem. I have tried Pyrodex and never had any luck getting it to shoot in anything that I own, Ml or BPCR. Good luck!

http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/buffalo.aspx
Found this while perusing The NEF site.They have a 45LC in the break action on Buffalo rifle page. This looks like just what you are looking for. And they are pretty reasonable price wise as well.

Bob

[Onlymenotu]

@Dale53 tks for the reply and your comments on handgun rounds as for a 38/357 round loaded up with black powder/substitutes don't or wouldn't the 30cal's..have more of a tendency to foul out than say the 40 cal's

another reason I want to stay the BP/substitute route is to keep her-them involved...once we get this rolling * I can say to her/them...... fill'em up... and they can fill the case full to the top * with out a chance- worry of a doulbe or even triple charge* I don't think it would possable to over load a bp cartridge in a modern made/produced gun, I mean you can only get so mutch powder<--( BP) in the and thats it.... even it u loaded it with the hotest substitute tripple 7.... it just won't produce the preasure so that is a huge safety factor when having/keeping the kids involved in this whole topic witch this is realy all about.... but on the other hand I would be able to get the most bang for the buck... that if they lose intrest in it... i could possable make a hunting rifle out of it and not have to start all over from ground zero... but for now and this disscusion it's about them and not me

[mooman76]

Onlymenotu

I load my 45-70 with BP substitute and I use as filler (this was recomended by someone else) cut outs from those stypo meat trays and it worked well. If you get a modern replica of the 45-70 you don't have to mess with the BP and sometimes you don't need the filler also. You could just use one of the styro cut outs to keep the powder at the back of the case. I tried the COW and didn't like it. One thing you have to consider is the weight of the COW in your load and I was having some high pressure issues but I was using an original Trapdoor and 12.5 g. of Unique. I had no problems without the COW but the acuracy wasn't there. By the way I used to be from the Peoria area.

[Onlymenotu]

tks for the reply Boz330 acctual been over and over the h&r sight as I have the sidekick blackpower rifle... witch is the thing that got this all started and my daughter prefers the breakaction to anything else at the moment

[RayinNH]

If the H&R 1871 in .45 Colt is anything like the 45-70 Buffalo Classic it will be darned accurate and a hoot to shoot as well. Should make a dandy firearm for a young shooter...Ray

[Onlymenotu]

@moonman76 roflmao never lost nothing here i take it.. i'm about 50 miles south of Springfield and as I said before it will be a modern gun but i want to load the blackpowder/substitute to keep the kids involved

[mooman76]

Only
I know what you mean,It's all about the family. You might want to look into Trailboss powder. It is very bulky in fact it is so bulky in allot of cases like BP you can't load too much!

[Onlymenotu]

OPPS sorry for the Type-0 there Mooman,,,, it's not Moonman is it sorry again

like I said I don't see how it would be possable to over load a BP case with even the hotest substitute Tripple 7 then almost all the modern powders have a mutch higher working pressure on the top end of things

[Dale53]

Onlymenotu;
I have had LOTS of experience with the .45 Colt and Black Powder as well as Pyrodex. MY experience has been limited to a couple of Ruger Revolvers using the REAL:mrgreen: powder (not counting many years of competitive black powder muzzle loading and cap & ball revolvers). All black powder and substitute rifles require frequent cleaning to keep the revolver or rifle working. My present Ruger .45 Colt Bisley revolver will shoot about 75 Pyrodex and 250 gr cast bullets with good accuracy before cleaning. Some guns require MUCH more frequent cleaning.

With my BPCR Silhouette Rifle I use a blow tube shortly before each shot (a pain in the tuckus). You may have to wipe between each shot with a damp pad.

Before you commit to black powder with a rifle, I suggest you read up on the necessities. This will perhaps keep you from disappointment "after the sale".

Mike Venturino's book on "Shooting Colt's Single Actions" where he details (amongst lots of other stuff) how to load with black powder and smokeless for each different caliber. This will be useful for lever gun and single shot in the specific calibers.

His book, "Leverguns" is also a classic. Again, details of specific models and how to load.

Here is his web site:http://www.ycsi.net/users/mlventurino/

You can see the actual contents lists to help you make up your mind.

One thing about Mike Venturino. He is absolutely honest and he has competed "In front of God and everybody" so his information is not garnered with a typewriter but actual real world experience.

He and Steve Garby wrote THE book on black powder rifle loading, "SPG's Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Primer". This book is a bit dated but still belongs on the desk of anyone who is interested in shooting a Black Powder Cartridge Rifle.

http://www.lonestarrifle.com/spg.htm

Good luck in your decision,
Dale53

[Dale53]

Onlymenotu;
One last comment. You suggest that you want to use black powder because of the perceived "more safe". Well, it is true that it is difficult to get into pressure problems with black powder (some have managed to do it in spite of conventional wisdom). That is true as far as it goes. However, the ignition temperature of black powder is MUCH lower than smokeless and I would consider it much LESS safe than smokeless powder in a lot of ways.

It is an explosive, unlike smokeless powder which just burns quickly under normal circumstances. Black powder is NOW! whether it is confined or not.

I taught my boys to reload at an early age and they NEVER had a problem (I fancy that I taught them correctly and with proper emphasis at each stage of the game). They ONLY used smokeless powder and competed where the norm is to shoot thousands of shots a year for several years. I even taught them to handle sub machine guns with safety.

You might want to think about black and its storage problems and all when considering children.

Just a thought...

Dale53

[Onlymenotu]

@ Dale53 I did not mean to sound like Blackpowder is anyless dangerous * than any gun powder is* as I do know it's a explosive and the NOW effect of it as I have a 1/2 a pound or so of it here and have shot it many times the sidelock and as you've said it's the can I have in my hand at this very moment says Quote Danger EXPLOSIVES Quote and it does have a low flash point and one of the reasons I swtiched over to the substitutes is the restrictions on buying the HOLY BLACK

This is why from one start of my post here I said the 3 constants were me ,the rockchucker because i already have it and the substitutes witch I already have

both substitutes say and I Quote from the platice bottleDanger Extremely Flameable Pyrodex- or Tripple 7 * depending on the bottle in my hand at the time* is not a explosive regultated by the federal explosive law, but it may explode if misusedQuote both substitutes have a mutch higher flash point that the HOLY BLACK,,,, witch inturns can and has caused some problems igniting

but I'll be clear I have the respect ,,, that any of them used hap-hazardly can be fatal

[Buckshot]

............Onlymenotu, A hearty welcome to the board. You're lucky you still have some young-uns. We're waiting for grandkid(s) but the kids are too in love with their jobs and their lives right now. So I envy you that. They are only little for such a short period in thier lives and as aggravateing as they can be sometimes, God love'um they're really angels sent to bless you.

Anyway, enough of that! :-) My recommendation would be something in 45 Colt. That was my thought as I read your post, and I figured a levergun. BUt then a levergun might be a tad difficult to operate, and also a bit heavy. Reading further down and coming across the suggestion of the Handi-Rifle, I'll second that motion too. They 'might' at first have a bit of trouble being new and stiff, in closing the barrel.

I bought my daughter a 22 cal Chipmunk when she was 6 (caught flame from the wife over that as she said wait a couple years :-)) and I thought she'd NEVER get strong enough to cock it by herself. Many an afternoon we'd walk up the canyon to see if we could bag a couple ground squirrels. Christian had her pink "My Little Ponies" daypack with some fruit rollups, a box of 22's and the binoculers inside.

..............Buckshot

[floodgate]

Onlymenotu:

Only problem I've ever heard of with Cream of Wheat is from shooting up-wind; you'll get an eye full of "grits". That little .45 Colt carbine IS a beauty, and should be just what you are looking for. And you can add other barrels later, if and as the program calls for it.

floodgate

[Onlymenotu]

tks 4 the reply guy's

@Buckshot She, closes Sidekick fine with is based on all the H&R-N.E.F breakactions and She has shot everything from 22 cal lever action to the 22 semi-auto to the bolt action 22 mag and the 223 bolt action to the 20 Ga.and 12 Ga pump shotguns... all have been loaded 1 shot only.... as I am working on the theory of one shot-one hit make it count.... even with the shotgun and clay birds * she misses... the bird... the old man gets to shoot* no need me having to do all the work and not get to play too
I mentioned a lever action gun to her and she said she wanted one like the sidekick * ie like h&r breakaction*

@ floodgate ROFLMAO... nice Now with that comment you got me thinking I'm either going to have to switch to oats for filler or change the direction I shoot from the south to the north now to from the north to the south to keep from of offending my northern neighbors ;) see how mutch more you just made this complicated!!

[Wayne Smith]

One thing with kids, they think they know what they want until they see something that they have never seen before, or get a chance to use it. Do you know someone with a lever, say a 30-30 or pistol caliber? Do you per chance know anyone who shoots Cowboy, or have a Cowboy shoot anywhere near? Let her experience other variations and she may change her opinion.

[georgeld]

I'd suggest you start with a NEFa in what ever cal you want. They sell new for $110-160 depending on which set up you buy.

They've got a switch barrel program. Just send the action in with the money and order extra barrels. You could end up with a dozen or more tube's of various cal's on the same action.

Best bet is to buy the gun, then get on graybeardoutdoors.com/forum and you can pick up used, unwanted barrels close to half what factory would charge. There's a lot of gunsmithing articles on the Sticky's as to how to fit a barrel, do a trigger job, or many other things you might think of. Theres' also a whole bunch of NEF nuts to help what ever you ask for, same as on here.

I've got three guns now, just bought an action that's on the way and working another deal for a HMR w/stocks from someone else and by the time it's done, the whole gun won't cost a whole $100.

They also make and you can buy/swap for shorter stocks for the kids in various materials and shapes. You can also get whatever gauge shotgun barrels you might want too. They've got a nice combo .410/.45LC barrel. That would get your girl off to a great start. You already said she like a break action. Here's your answer and something she already wants.

Check into it. www.h&r1871.com

Glad to hear you've got the lil kids into the shooting games.

[Onlymenotu]

hi guys and tks for the replys

@ Wayne umm nope don't know any cowboy shooters may know where I could lay my hands on a 30-30 levergun for her to try out possabaly I may have to check in to borrowing it to see if i can get her intrested in it

@georgeld I personaly like the h&r - nef stuff it's a good value for the money and made right here in the good ole usa * thats why i choose the nef sidekick over the cva wolf spain made gun and the price is about the same* and never regreted it
& Like you said greybeards has lots of stuff on the h&r stuff thats where i done most of my research on the sidekick before i bought it,,, some knowledgeable people over there in huntsman/sidekick fourm ...Busta has mentioned manytimes his to go gun is the huntsman * and he own several more expensive guns but still prefers the huntsman*