1911, Kimber vs Baer vs STI .45

[Changeling]

I don't want anyone to think I am being redundant but I am trying to work my way down to what I think is important in my opinion.

[btroj]

Why don't you ask what woman to date? It would be easier to reach an agreement. This can or worms is going to get ugly, fast!

I own a Colt Gold Cup. It works. It was in the price range I was looking at. It is accurate enough to meet my needs. I am happy. I also don't care what others think about my decision, it was mine to make and I am satisfied with it.

[Jared]

Baer.

[MtGun44]

Massive price differentials. Not sure this is a fair comparison.

Ferrari, Porsche or Chevy. . . . . .

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

me ill take the sti. If its your money buying it for me ill still take the sti with the baer second and kimber third but if i have to pay ill switch the last two

[2 dogs]

So what youre saying is, the Baer is the best!

I knew you would come around....:-)

[Lloyd Smale]

you didnt read my confusion close enough. I piced the sti whether im paying or you first. I actually got my gold match for free pal. A buddy got tired of me bragging on my gold cup and told me he was going to send that gold match to me to compare side by side. He did and he would never take it back. I ended up sending him one of my cdps to trade but a couple years later he sent that back because he never shot it. Now you are a good friend of mine and i think just to end this argument you ought to send me that baer and tell me to just keep it or try it out for 2o years or so. Id bet id back you up in any arguement about 1911s then pal.

[Changeling]

me ill take the sti. If its your money buying it for me ill still take the sti with the baer second and kimber third but if i have to pay ill switch the last two

Lloyd, why do you like the sti so much? In your opinion is the sti lacking anything, say relative to Kimber?

I checked the prices on the Baer, WOW! I had no idea the price traveled in that area, I could afford it but I sure as Hell wouldn't want to:roll:


btroj, I've had that figured out for a long time, blond or redhead, had trouble at first but now I do both, date that is 8-)

[btroj]

I know this opens another can of worms but I have to ask anyway.

How much of the "appeal" of the Baer is in the name? How much is for the prestige of owning a semi custom gun?

I also have to ask this- if the goal is to shoot at spitting distances or out to 25 yards or so tops then does the huge amount of extra money for the Baer buy you anything of actual value? To me a gun that doesn't jam, functions properly, and outs the rounds close enough to where I want them is fine. The name doesn't matter. The "tight fit" doesn't matter.

Sometimes price has a quality all it's own.

[wildcatter]

I'll take the Les Baer, semi custom and under 1" groups at 25 yards, good enough for a camp and trail carry or with its 100% RELIABILITY SINCE DAY 1, PERFECT CCW POWER AND DEPENDABILITY. I hear all say it's to high priced??? if you know anything about a Baer you know they are proven over 10's of 1000's of rounds, not to shoot loose and nothing hold it's resale value like the Les Baer in any model!! Sounds like the best buy on the planet to me!!! I will pay a little more for the Baer when compared to the build and parts used on the others, like STI a lot of polymer parts, Kimber even the ones with Steel frames use a lot of MIM parts. Baer all top of the line steel parts made 100% in the USA, and hard fit but totally reliable. My P II is the best 1911 I ever owned in every way, and Ive owned and built a lot. This is the appeal for me! some don't care how well perfmance is or think they need it, I want to know I can't get better wethere I need it or not.

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/saumbi/XD7P4684.jpg

The P II is $1,790.00 retail $1525.00 Street, the closest Kimber Model the Gold Match, is $1345.00, and the STI Lawman, $1425.00, now if you want to compare the stripped down production models from STI or KImber, You have to remember, Les Baer dosen't make a stripped down improper fit model!! those are the Facts 1911 "101" !!

That does make the Les Baer the best INVESTMENT ON THE PLANET!! I would give the 4-5 hundred more for the Baer every day of the week! Best retail and no 1911 stays as tight as long as the Baer thats a proven!!

[MtGun44]

Can you pull the slide back on the Baer these days?

Bill

[fivegunner]

You can lead them to water BUT!!!:bigsmyl2:

[Lloyd Smale]

my sti trojan had zero plastic parts on it. The only reason id say i like the sti a bit better was feel. Rack the slide on a new kimber and its smooth. Rack a new baer and it stiff but smooth. Rack the sllde on my trojan and its like it was on ball bearings. It allowed the gun (a 9mm) to run a 7 lb spring with very light loads something i doubt youd get away with in a kimber and I KNOW your not going to do in a baer. After many many thousands of rounds it was still ball bearing smooth and just as tight. It was also the most accurate 1911 ive ever owned and if youve worked with many 9mm 1911s youd know that thats a mouthfull as most are mediocure shooters at best. that gun hands down even outshot the 952 smith target gun i onwed which is suppose to be the gold standard for 9mm handgun accuracy. It also ran like a clock. When i kind of gave up ppc shooting and really didnt have a use for a 9mm 1911 anymore and decided to sell it. I had a lineup of guys in line for it that had seen it in action or shot it themselves. theres still friction between a couple of them about who bought it. Im pretty much 1911 flush right now but if i was looking for a anohter one id sure give the sti lineup my first glance.

[Changeling]

I am going to try and find a place that has them and just go see what feels right. Finding such a place will not be easy in my area!

Bill, what did you mean by, "Can you pull the slide back on the Baer these days?"

Loyd, are the STI's not made of steel these days as your older one was?

wildcatter, will the Baer P II in .45 run great with a variety of cast bullets or is more of a 1 or 2 bullet type pistol, I know you are very passionate about the Baer pistols, and I'm not trying to be funny, I just don't know! Neither do I know about the sti and Kimber.

Also thanks for the prices, they aren't as far away from each other as I thought.

[Shooter6br]

I have a Kimber target II I am happy with it. As my Dad always said. " buy the best and cry only once" i dont cry since i am happy. Or as he also said "Shoot yourself"

[MtGun44]

The two Baers that I have handled CANNOT have the slide pulled back by hand. They
are so " hard fitted" that to retract the slide, you MUST hold the slide very strongly
in one hand, and SMACK the grip HARD, sometimes twice, to break the action open so
that the slide can be retracted. This locking is only in the first 1/4" or so of slide travel,
the rest is normal and easy.

Personally, I find this extremely irritating and unnecessary.

The one that he has shot the most is starting to get a bit freer, and if you get your
hands just right you can sometimes get it to open with the gun right at the chest
and with the position right. Still really difficult. WAY too tight.

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

the sti high capasity double stacked guns have a polymere grip frame on them. the single stacked guns are steal or aluminum. QUOTE=Changeling;1327347]I am going to try and find a place that has them and just go see what feels right. Finding such a place will not be easy in my area!

Bill, what did you mean by, "Can you pull the slide back on the Baer these days?"

Loyd, are the STI's not made of steel these days as your older one was?

wildcatter, will the Baer P II in .45 run great with a variety of cast bullets or is more of a 1 or 2 bullet type pistol, I know you are very passionate about the Baer pistols, and I'm not trying to be funny, I just don't know! Neither do I know about the sti and Kimber.

Also thanks for the prices, they aren't as far away from each other as I thought.[/QUOTE]

[wildcatter]

I am going to try and find a place that has them and just go see what feels right. Finding such a place will not be easy in my area!

Bill, what did you mean by, "Can you pull the slide back on the Baer these days?"

Loyd, are the STI's not made of steel these days as your older one was?

wildcatter, will the Baer P II in .45 run great with a variety of cast bullets or is more of a 1 or 2 bullet type pistol, I know you are very passionate about the Baer pistols, and I'm not trying to be funny, I just don't know! Neither do I know about the sti and Kimber.

Also thanks for the prices, they aren't as far away from each other as I thought.

I have no experience shooting the STI, but I have owned and shot Kimbers and Les Baers both, along with many other. The Kimber is a very good gun, and will run whatever you feed it, the Baer is also a very good gun, in my opinion it is the best money can buy. I have shot Wilsons and will say they are excellent but will cost over a thousand dollars more than a Baer, this is why I say you may be able to buy as good but not for anywhere near the money you can by a Baer, and I am sure you can't buy a more accurate or reliable or durable 1911 than a Les Baer. The Baer can be had within a couple hundred dollars of a compareable Kimber or Dan wesson (which is also a very nice 1911). But no matter what you invest in, I don't think anything holds it's value like a Baer, there is always a waiting line for new guns, and people know how well theyy hold up.

Now as far as running, the Baer will run anything you feed it, it is a valture. I can run 200 grn. SWC's (the Lyman 452460), as low as 4.0 grains of ww-231 most reloading manuals I have(which are all about as old as me, show starting loads around 5.0 grains and 800fps. range That is with a 1.5" accuracy package and factory springs! I have shot ball, JHP, reloads factory plated you name it, once I have the oal right, 100% run I have had the same experience with the Kimber. But out of no less than 8 or 9 diferent makers 1911's and two custom builds, The Baer I currently own is the most accurate and reliable 1911 I have ever owned!! And yes I can cycle the slide fine, I have a buddy who has a Springfield Trophy Match, and they are about the same as the Springfield is a custom shop gun also and fit pretty tight, but the big killer is The frames on Springfield's are imported.

[Matthew 25]

Take this with a BIG FAT grain of salt...
A gunsmith buddy of mine who builds IPSC guns loves STI, but believes he must adjust their timing or they will self destruct. He explained what he meant, but I don't understand all that goes into the sequence of firing a 1911. Only because of this I'd advise something other than the STI.
If anyone has a few thousand rounds on an STI with no problems, you can sure call BS on my opinion.

[2 dogs]

I gotta take exception to that Matt25. Unless your buddy has built more pistols that STI, he has to take a back seat to thier experience. I know the guy who was the chief pistolsmith at STI for a long time. His name is Benny Hill. He runs Triangle Shooting Sports now. His guns run right! I know, I have shot the snot of of his guns and so have many other top shoters.

[2 dogs]

MtGun44, not to be argumentative but just cuz YOU cant open your Baers slide without smacking on them doesnt mean someone else cant.

[Lloyd Smale]

got to agree with fermin. Stis are probably the most bought and used 1911s right now it high level competition and there reputation is made on the fact that you can buy a very competitive gun right out of the box. You have to keep in mind a couple things with sti. They for the most part sell two different lines of guns. they make single stacked 1911s like the trojan and a few more for the normal 1911 guy. then they make there comp guns. Most are double stacked guns and some are full race guns. Options and price about are unlimited. There is probably not a brand of gun more respected in competition then sti.
I gotta take exception to that Matt25. Unless your buddy has built more pistols that STI, he has to take a back seat to thier experience. I know the guy who was the chief pistolsmith at STI for a long time. His name is Benny Hill. He runs Triangle Shooting Sports now. His guns run right! I know, I have shot the snot of of his guns and so have many other top shoters.

[2 dogs]

Oh Good Grief! Now I have Lloyd agreeing with me???

Maybe I should reverse my position! This must be some sort of sneaky yankee ploy!!!

[felix]

Wildcatter, why should we care where the frames come from when made of quality steel? ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

Ill allways agree with you when your right. Which fortunately isnt often!!
Oh Good Grief! Now I have Lloyd agreeing with me???

Maybe I should reverse my position! This must be some sort of sneaky yankee ploy!!!

[Changeling]

Wildcatter, why should we care where the frames come from when made of quality steel? ... felix

Because that steel is sometimes not what you think! I wouldn't be afraid of steel from Japan, but China has show in a lot of there manufacturing processes that things aren't so coposetic in that country yet. If you believe differently, that is certainly your prerogative!

[felix]

Good steel comes from Europe, specifically Germany and Switzerland. We have a few small mills that can fabricate good steel too. A good steel is one made to spec on the nose. ... felix

[Shooter6br]

Someone told me i was a "wit" I told he he was half right

[MtGun44]

Ha Ha. Get real.

Nobody that handled the Baer guns that I handled could open them when new. You could
barely open them after about 1000 rds. Passed them around the IPSC gear up room, because
everybody figures - "Hey, I can do it." but nope, nobody could just pull back the slide.

One really big guy, by putting the gun about on his chest and getting his elbows out like
a chicken just managed to pop one loose, be he was essentially smacking it.

Only seen two of them, both the same. Ridiculous. That is why I asked if that is the
way the others are or whether Les stopped being so silly about his hard fit idea.

Bill

[wildcatter]

Because that steel is sometimes not what you think! I wouldn't be afraid of steel from Japan, but China has show in a lot of there manufacturing processes that things aren't so coposetic in that country yet. If you believe differently, that is certainly your prerogative!

I don't care if some countries can make good steel or not, cause I am certain no country makes better steel or has higher quality standards than American made material and parts!! I also think far too many people who call themselves Americans support foriegn countries, and don't consider it superior quality to American made parts or material, I think most only do it because there cheap ba$!#^*$, or don't give a damn about jobs as long as they have one!!! :dung_hits_fan: Sorry you ask! IAM AN AMERICAN, I TRY TO BUY AMERICAN, and support AMERICAN JOBS, I SPEAK AMERICAN because I want the world (and illegals) to know I'M AMERICAN, and mostly cause I have a problem with AMERICAN COMPANIES SUPPORTING FORIEGN MANUFACTURING! But since I am American I know this is a free country, so I understand that not everyone gives a d------ I mean everyone has a choice, I just try and choose wisely and althogh it means very little I try to support my fellow American workers and craftsman!!

[btroj]

Good steel comes from Europe, specifically Germany and Switzerland. We have a few small mills that can fabricate good steel too. A good steel is one made to spec on the nose. ... felix

Thank you for a specific, accurate, non emotional response. As usual Felix cut to the quick.

[Changeling]

Good steel comes from Europe, specifically Germany and Switzerland. We have a few small mills that can fabricate good steel too. A good steel is one made to spec on the nose. ... felix


Thats very true, However China does not outsource there steel making, or anything else I can think of. There ministry of commerce has settled on "China made or the highway "! Not might be appreciated in the Western world but that is the way it is relative to commerce and we are just sucking it up like there is no tomorrow!
It will eventually come down to tear the fabric of the USA into "Ribbons", I don't believe that either, do you, right, you want to look through special glasses that doesn't see anything?

Merchandisers today aren't interested in what you want exactly, but what they can sell you at the lowest price available, maybe that should read Highest prices available, or they can get away with?

Everyone knows where the "GOOD" steel comes from, we just don't get it!:mad:

[MtGun44]

Look up NuCor steel. MANY small mills in the USA, making top quality steel.

Bill

[felix]

You get a well formulated steel in Ruger 454 cylinders. Tough stuff, and formulated by a recent grad student starting his first job at a small mill. Bill would not do a 454 anything until he could make it a six shooter, and not some silly off beat five shot contrary to his, and Colt's, historical style. Personally, I could care less about five or six shots provided the gun, whatever it is, can be easily manipulated by me specifically. I am your proverbial 90 pound weakling appearing in the body building ads of years past. ... felix

[MtGun44]

The Ruger .480 ,and I think the .454, cylinders are/were made from a special alloy of
Carpenter steel. Carpenter is a major US steel maker and they produce a lot of very
high quality special alloys, often used for very high tech equipment like aircraft or advanced
weapons systems.

Bill