Counsel To The New Casters

[Char-Gar]

The number of folks new to casting on this board is truly wonderful. We love to see folks take up this craft. It is rewarding, fun and can be a great way to shoot more for less. At least until you get hooked and want to go farther.

This is a great place to learn, expand and grow. There is not another place like it on the web. However there are some possible concerns for the new guy. It my intent of this post to offer a little counsel to help you navigate these possible concerns. I want you to find success with cast bullets and it is to that end, I offer a few reflections. I will try and keep it simple.

1. Quite often folks ask Freshman questions and get P.hd. answers. They feel over their heads and often intimidated by the seeming complexity of the topic.

2. Please bear in mind, that this craft is not so difficult as it would appear. You can keep going into theory until you are drowning, but all that theory is not necessary. The how is much more important than the why. After you have mastered the how, then you can play with the why until your heart is content.

3. In their answers lots of folks tend to over think the issues and really small things become really big thing far out of proportion to their actual place in the scheme of bullet casting.

4. You will get answers that are contradictory. One fellow will say it is white and another will say it is black. You will be forced to make a judgment of which answer is most credible without knowing anything about the poster. If you don't want to decide, then don't. Just push that issue to the side until your experience can guide you.

In order not to get overwhelmed I would offer a few suggestions.

1. First read a good book on the subject. These give good solid information that will get you started in the right direction. Only after you have a grasp on the basic information should you ask questions here. This basic knowledge will help you sift through the varied opinion and notions you will encounter.

2. Don't get bogged down in the "paralysis of analyze". I have seen some folks get so bogged down in wanting everything perfect before they squeezed the trigger. They fidget and fuss over the small stuff.

3. Leave lots of room for your own experience. If you want to know what will happen if thus and so, go ahead and do thus and so, as long as it is not dangerous. That is what loadbooks are for. The confusion of conflicting opinions will go away as you learn what works in your gun for you.

This stuff is neither extremely complex or difficult. It can be made to appear that way, but it is not. Cast bullet success is easily within your grasp.

Again, welcome to a great place and keep em in the X-Ring.

P.S. Handling jacketed bullets will make you sterile :-)

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

Thanks , i read and read , and read some more , then got some equipment together , my very first cast of Lee R.e.a.l boolits was done with a ladle and a 1 quart sauce pan on a camp stove on my front porch in freezing weather

my first cast for cartridge loading was just after fathers day this year with a lee c309-170f and a 4-20 pot
i have loaded and shot them in several different configurations now
it is great fun and as long as your not trying to push the limits the middle is rather forgiving

[bowfin]

Chargar is right. After picking up the basics, a person will learn quicker by doing than by reading. Even if experience doesn't supply the right answers, it helps you ask the right questions.

Looking back on the last six months, I spent too much time "getting ready" rather than doing.
If I had it to do over again, I would have bought a single mold and concentrated on the whole process, rather than trying to chase down molds, lubes, and equipment for everything under the sun.

[sundog]

Heat source, pot, ladle, a mould, gloves, safety glasses. Cast some boolits. Loob'em -- tumble in Lee snot, run'em thru a loob/sizer, pan loob, whatever. Load'em. Shoot them. When you think you have too many wrinkles, bad bases, bands not filling out right, the wrong diameter, wrong lube, need a different boolit design or caliber, whatever, then make a change or addition. Point is, get a mould and get started! After you know the basics and the safety stuff, just do it. Get some wheel weights, range scrap, or whatever, melt it, and make some boolits. If you don't like them, throw them back in the pot and make some more. If they look shootable, well..., shoot'em. If you like doing it, it'll grow. Trust me, it WILL grow....

Charles is right -- great bunch of folks here.

[Cherokee]

Good post. I started by getting the Lyman book of the time (back in early 60's), reading and doing. Didn't have any helpers. Bought used equipement. Some of the bullets were not so purdy but they shot fine. With experience I got better. Just be safe, load carefully and enjoy.

[Piedmont]

While we are mentioning books, Glen Fryxell's From Ingot to Target..... is exceptionally good and FREE. It is so good I wish some of the regulars who think they know more than Glen would read his book and maybe learn something.

Click on the link at the bottom of this page to Cast Bullet Notes From lasc.us.

[462]

Chargar, you have provided the beginner much useful information. Lets hope they take it to heart and follow it.

I feel that too many people are looking for instant gratification, i.e. their very first post is "What's the best load for XXX?". (In fact, there was one as recent as last evening.) They are not willing to do the research themselves, instead, they take the lazy way out and rely on the generosity of others. The knowledge and experience that they would gain, by first reading, casting, reloading and shooting, would be magnitudes more valuable than any answer that someone would offer.

I spent many months reading Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, lurking here and researching the archive, all in an effort to learn as much as I could. It wasn't till my many experiements, over the course of many casting and shooting sessions continually failed to produce a lead-free barrel, that I finally asked for help.

Beginners, do yourselves a huge and rewarding favor: Read Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, read this site's many stickies and archive, buy the necessary basic equipment, and have at it. If problems continue to persist, we're here to help.

Soon, you will have the knowledge and experience to help the next beginner.

[mooman76]

Good write up. I have thought basically the same for some time. Some are too impatient and want their first casts to be perfect without having to take the time to learn. Everyone casts a little different and no one method is the best for everyone. I might add to seek out fellow casters. There are allot here willing to sacrifice a little time to help out a future fellow caster. Seeing how someone does it could answer allot of questions.

[Ben]

I began casting in 1965, no internet and not much access to a lot of written materials back them. Learning was slow and cumbersome.

Most of us had a fairly slow learning curve, it took years to accumulate the knowledge base that all the members have here.

I'm beginning to think that a lot of individuals who visit the site want someone to get them to that point in just a few minutes.

Casting and shooting is a hobby of fine details , sharing, and experimentation along with a good dose of dedication and perseverance. There will be some failures before there are great success stories to tell.

Ben

[leowa]

Thanks charger and to all the members who have answered past post. More often than not I don't need to ask a question on this site. I just do a search and the answer is there in front of me. But it is nice to have others out there that can help leed me in the right direction when needed.

[1Shirt]

Charger, Ya done good! Am strongly in favor of the KISS principle. While there are many on this forum who have a deep history, understanding, and tech knowledge of casting, loading, etc. for the beginner, it needs to be simple. I started with a 311284 in a small cast iron frying pan, a lyman ladle, a cake cutter made out of a cut off 06 case, and a 310 tool for checking and sizing. I learned slowly over the years, and am very thankful for Lyman reloading manuals.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Von Gruff]

Chargar is right. After picking up the basics, a person will learn quicker by doing than by reading. Even if experience doesn't supply the right answers, it helps you ask the right questions..

After Chargers excellent post, bowfin has added the common sense addition.

Von Gruff.

[geargnasher]

Chargar, I've stayed out of this up to now, but since you've been giving the board a whole lot of your two cents lately, let me add mine as someone who just stumbled blindly onto this forum about about two years ago.


The number of folks new to casting on this board is truly wonderful. We love to see folks take up this craft. It is rewarding, fun and can be a great way to shoot more for less. At least until you get hooked and want to go farther. Then it's straight to ruination!

This is a great place to learn, expand and grow. Absolutely the best. There is not another place like it on the web. However there are some perils for the new guy. Perils? It my intent of this post to offer a little counsel to help you navigate these perils. That's kind of condescending, isn't it, both to the new guy and the rest of us who are also trying to help? It appears to me that your motive is more centered on your personal annoyance with complications, and you're projecting that onto others, but that's just the way I'm experiencing your post.I want you to find success with cast bullets and it is to that end, I offer a few reflections. I will try and keep it simple.

1. Quite often folks ask Freshman questions and get P.hd. answers. I feel too that this board should be for everyone, but it IS also a Ph, D. board, elementary school is in the written manuals some excellent articles at Castpics and LASC. They feel over their heads and often intimidated by the seeming complexity of the topic. Is that your perception, or theirs? I can see what you mean once in a while, but I also notice that complex answers are usually responses to "whys" beyond the original question. If somebody wants to know the whole truth, there are those of us who are more than willing to share our take on it. If not, then why do they keep asking?

2. Please bear in mind, that this craft is not so difficult as it would appear. It isn't difficult on a basic level. It is made difficult because of all the wives' tales and fairy tales and internet hearsay, lack of FUNDAMENTAL knowledge, and then even more difficult because once you finally get past all of those artificial obstacles then the REAL obstacles occur, you know, the ones associated with trying to teach ANY subject in any format. You can keep going into theory until you are drowning, but all that theory is not necessary. It all depends on what the person is trying to accomplish. Part of the issue here has to do with the KISS principle vs. giving a man a fish, or teaching him how to fish. You can spoon-feed someone casting thermometer target values once you finally establish what alloy they're using, but unless they have some clue about the theory and the strategy behind how those values were determined, they'll be lost when they switch to another alloy. And NO, the theory isn't complicated. The how is much more important than the why. I disagree very much with that. Again, maybe more to some people than others, but you MUST have a fundamental understanding of what you're doing to go beyond one single alloy, one mould, and one gun. If you try to convince a new caster that he doesn't need to know the principles behind what he's messing with, you are doing him a tremendous disservice. No, you don't have to know every little far-fetched detail about every single member's personal theory on the subject, that just makes noise in one's head, but you DO need to know the basics of mould temp, pot temp, alloy melt points, casting techniques, fluxing/reducing techniques, and how to manipulate all of these to get satisfactory results. After you have mastered the how, then you can play with the why until your heart is content. With much of this hobby, the how and the why are inseparable. Often it is a blind struggle to get positive results without knowing the "why".

3. In their answers lots of folks tend to over think the issues and really small things become really big thing far out of proportion to their actual place in the scheme of bullet casting. Very true. But don't take that out of context. Thread evolve, often a simple beginner question gets hijacked and turned into a dissertation when the thinking juices of some of us get going. It happens. Some of the most interesting discussions here happen on such threads, and with apologies to anyone getting offended if their thread is derailed in such a manner, there is a lot to be learned in such things.

4. You will get answers that are contradictory. One fellow will say it is white and another will say it is black. You will be forced to make a judgment of which answer is most credible without knowing anything about the poster. That's kind of black and white itself, isn't it? No one forces anyone to decide anything. This isn't kindergarten. Let people be responsible to their own learning. If you don't want to decide, then don't. Just push that issue to the side until your experience can guide you. Like I said....

In order not to get overwhelmed I would offer a few suggestions.

1. First read a good book on the subject. These give good solid information that will get you started in the right direction. Only after you have a grasp on the basic information should you ask questions here. ABSOLUTLY. This basic knowledge will help you sift through the varied opinion and notions you will encounter. This basic knowledge is also essential to asking sensible and valid questions.

2. Don't get bogged down in the "paralysis of analyze". I have seen some folks get so bogged down in wanting everything perfect before they squeezed the trigger. They fidget and fuss over the small stuff. Some people create that "paralysis" regardless of what anyone else can do. It's a personality thing, just as is obsession with details, OR obsession with simplicity. If a person is wired that way, there's nothing you or I can do to change it, other than offer simple, straightforward solutions. I know it's diffucult for a new caster to prioritize information, since there is no frame of reference, but again that's what the books are for.

3. Leave lots of room for your own experience. That right there is a true gem. I'm thinking about framing that and putting it over the door to my reloaing room. Happens to go very will with a truth from another member, 45 2.1, in his signature line. If you want to know what will happen if thus and so, go ahead and do thus and so, as long as it is not dangerous. That is what loadbooks are for. No here's an area that I get caught in fairly frequently. I've learned just enough about a few things here not put in any loading book of which I'm aware to be dangerous, but where do you start? I start by exhausting every resource I have educating myself, then I post here and ask a ton of questions all at once, mostly about safety. This is one place where this board excels, giving solid advice and tips on how to take on a Ph, D. project in a safe manner, and how to tell when it might be unsafe. The confusion of conflicting opinions will go away as you learn what works in your gun for you.

This stuff is neither extremely complex or difficult. It can be made to appear that way, but it is not. Cast bullet success is easily within your grasp. It occured to me the other day, and I posted it somewhere on the board, that casting boolits is far less complicated than safe reloading practices. The most advanced casting technique isn't as complex as assembling a quality, safe handload with cast boolits. The act of conveying those simple techniques through print can, and does, get very complicated sometimes.

Again, welcome to a great place and keep em in the X-Ring.

P.S. Handling jacketed bullets will make you sterile :-)

I don't know if I'm the only one that took this, and the "forum cycle" thread this way, but it seems to me that you're spending a lot of time holding people in your smallest vision. Both those who ask for help or input and those who try to provide it here. One of the things that makes this such a great place is the diversity of answers one will get to a question. You know about teaching. You know about learning styles. You know how you can say something a hundred different ways so someone, and someone else can say the same thing and suddenly the lightbulb comes on. Sometimes there are differnces of opinion, sometimes members get into spats over these and the less experienced get really confused, but that's the nature of things. It should serve to drive home the point that NONE of us have all the answers, or even the best answer all the time, and that they should "leave lots of room for their own experience". Casting isn't for everyone, and if a person doesn't take some of the responsiblity of learning the things that work upon themselves, then maybe this really IS too complex for them. Only they can decide that, not you or me.

Gear

[MT Gianni]

Gear every individual is different. Some must have all the knowledge they can find and may just now searching to find ww after a 5 year period of :I just might do this". Others rushed in without any knowedge of zinc alloys or lubes. Moost of us fell in the middle but we are all over the map when it comes to learning methods. I think both your's and Chargars posts have a lot of merit.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I had an older experienced caster take me under his wing this winter to get me started. It was invaluable, but left me with a million questions. In the process of getting started I found this forum, and it has been a godsend. Then, I finally ordered the Lyman cast bullet manual. The chapter on metallurgy answered near all my questions and dispelled a ton of the myths and BS that folks can find out there. The combination of this forum, the Lyman book and Glenn's PDF should get ANYBODY off to the right start.
Thanks to everyone who comes here to play

[GL49]

Chargar,
Thanks. The "It ain't so hard" theme of your post says it well, wouldn't change anything. And if I run into problems or feel a need to know more about the why, this is the place to get the answers, I'm here often, mostly just reading and learning. Piedmont is right about LASC, I spent hours and hours there before getting started.
Phew! I'm glad I gave up the j-bullets. With gloves, face shield, breathing apparatus and tongs I will remove the last few boxes from my garage and selectively donate them to individuals that appear in need of the consequences of handing such hazardous material.

[btroj]

Well said Charger. I agree most of all with suggestion 3. Leave lots of room for YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE. A new guy can learn so much by casting and shooting. Lead a few barrels. Figure out what does, and doesn't, work for you and your guns.
I look at it this way- I can tell you everything you need to know but doing it gives you CONTEXT. Casting and shooting your own is when the little light bulb comes on and you say" that's what they meant". That is the real moment of truth.

This site is a wealth of knowledge. I do think that many of the new guys get hung up on the minute details. How did Elmer get by without a hardness tester, a pot and mould thermometer, phase diagrams for his alloys, and on and on? He dis it by the seat of his pants. He learned. He learned at the casting, loading, and shooting bench.

I do think people here make this far harder than it needs to be. I like to keep it simple as possible.

Thanks for a real gem Chargar.

[firefly1957]

Good post it is best to keep it simple to start. Like many of you I started before internet and with little outside input other than some old American Rifleman magazines and a local gun shop owner or two that could suggest what is causing any problems.

[diehard]

Chargar, I was thrilled to find a positive post directed to new casters. The intent seemed to me to re-create that sense of community we have been talking about lately. I really enjoyed your post.

Gearnasher, since you chose not to address Chargar offline through PM, I suppose it won't be inappropriate address you directly. I find nothing wrong with the points you made. In fact you make some very salient and constructive additions to the original post that are every bit as valuable as the original post.

My problem (as if I matter at all) is the tone of your post, and the overt personal nature of it. I see no reason why you couldn't add your "two cents" without making it an attack against a fellow board member. In fact, if you had done so---addressed the ideas and not the poster-- you would have come off with a bit more credibility and character than it appears (to me) you have done. I might be wrong ( frequently am) but it seems to me judging by the responses following your post that I am not the only one who sees it that way. Seems like moral support for Charger--it doesn't have to be a him vs. you discussion, does it?

You seem to have a tremendous amount of experience and knowledge to offer. In fact I have nothing but respect for you for the helpful information I've gleaned from some of your posts. But....why be so personal in your approach?


The only reason I bring this up is that over the past few days I've had conversations--both in posts and in pm's--about what makes a community of like thinkers stay together. In other words, how can we keep this forum a friendly place? Some folks--newer members mostly--are actually afraid to post here because of fear of personal attacks. (As for me, go ahead attack me if you will, I could give a rat's a**....but for the sake and integrity of this site, I would prefer you do it by PM).

I really would like to see this forum continue to be absolutely the most informative (it is) and most friendly ( the jury is deliberating) on the web.

If I read something into your post that wasn't there, I apologize--publicly. If anyone wants to tell me I'm a moron ( not hard to find evidence of this, so its not much of a challenge) I'd prefer you do it by PM...not because I don't want it aired in cyberspace, but because on a friendly public forum that is where PERSONAL issues should be worked out.

Everyone have a nice day.

Laurel

[Char-Gar]

Gear..My post wasn't intended for everybody. It was directed to new casters who might be having some difficulty getting traction here. They are the ones who can determine if it has any worth to it.

I think my concerns and counsel are valid and based on the total experience with this board. I don't see how trying to help others in a positive way is condescending. But, maybe it it, I will just have to leave that to others do decided. It certainly wasn't intended to be.

The "forum cycle" thread was just a way of encouraging folks to take stock of where this and others boards are coming from and going to. Hopefully folks will then be able to encourage the kinds of change that will keep this board a positive place and experience for many years to come.

I have been more proactive in the past few days. But it all designed to be helpful and positive to this board and it's members. I knew not everybody would take it that way, but that should not prevent my from trying.

I apologize for anything I said, that offended you. It was not my intention to give offense to anybody. There were no hidden messages or agendas, other than to be helpful and positive to new casters.

Best wishes to all..

[felix]

Not having the right idea at the right time causes much delay, sometimes years, in any subject matter. How ideas come about, if any, is pure magic considering the when(s) and where(s). This is what separates the A students from the F students in any particular subject matter. A person getting an A today might have been the same person getting an F when in school. The difference comes with desire, conscious or not, and that comes from some kind of spark which really is an idea of some sort. Might be from a drunken dream? At one time I though I was a baseball player. What a bunch of bunk. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

Felix.. Human beings learn what they feel is in their best interest or will make them happy. Sometimes is is based on a rational process. Other times is is just an emotional will-o-the-wisp. Sometimes this brings reward, other times it brings pain.

Those of us who teach must assume, those who come to learn, believe that learning is in their best interest or will make them happy. I spend much time in class, trying to instill that thought and motivation in students. Sometimes it works..sometimes it doesn't.

So, I assume that folks who come here want to have success at cast bullet shooting. I know that is not true in all cases. But, we soldier on marching on an assumption.

[mooman76]

Diehard,

You will see very few personal attacks here. Most are really just misunderstandings or disageements that get a little carried away and most of them are followed by an apology. Some also can just seem that way from the outside and you wouldn't know it but allot of these guys have been known each others for a long time and it's really just friendly rivalry. On a rare case when it get's out of hand someone is expelled or they just leave.
We're not like other boards. Not quick to jump on someone for asking questions and we welcome all who want to come here and learn about cast boolits.

[btroj]

Diehard, I dis not see Gears response as overtly personal or negative.
I find a balancing of ideas to be a good thing. I have seen many threads where two or more parties just needed to agree to not agree.
I frequently agree with what Gear says. I sometimes do not. He tends to take a much more structured, scientific approach to casting. I don't hold that against him, it works for him and his guns. I do not have the inclination to follow thru on some of the things he does. My system works for me.

What I got from Chargars original post is this- don't get wrapped around the axel trying to understand everything all at once. As a beginner do some basic research thru reading a cast bullet manual such as Lymans. Read it, then go try casting. If you have a lube, allow, or whatever that you want to know if it works then go try it. If it is safe then what is the harm? Don't worry about failures, that IA where much of the learning comes from.

I saw this as a positive, logical approach for beginners.

[diehard]

Thank you Moonman and Btroj for your input. I agree this place is very special. I also agree that both posters had very important and positive things to say. Perhaps I misunderstood the tone of gearnasher's post. If that is the case I am sincerely sorry.

I am just trying to help keep this place a friendly, welcoming place. I have seen a few questionable posts of late, especially on the military rifle forum. I used to frequent (mostly lurk) a dozen or so gun websites, but left one by one when folks just didn't get it that it doesn't matter a turd if one likes a Sig over a Glock etc ect ect.It also became apparent that in most sites people are far more competent with a keyboard than with a gun, gunmithing, reloading , or whatever (Hate that). I may be a little sensitive, because this place is all I have left...and I have a long way to go before I master the casting process. :)

I know I don't have many posts here, and damned few worth any type of useful information, but I still really like it here. As I've said before....there are several regulars I can't thank enough for their insight and assistance.

Anyway....happy shooting!
And may God bless you all.
Laurel

[btroj]

Ah yes, the famous Ford/Chevy argument. That one does get a bit warm, doesn't it?

I tend to ignore those discussions. I don't mind a strongly asserted position but don't like the "wy way or the hiway" attitudes. I am a firm believer that one correct answer does not exist in loading ammo. Cast even more so. If there was only one right answer every BR shooter would be using the same ammo.

I view this as a place for people to say" look what I did". Sometimes I like it , sometimes I don't.

Although I do nothing even remotely associated with swaging I find that section to be interesting. The use of a case for a jacket in handguns just amazes me. I will most likely never swage a bullet but the idea that people do just fascinated me.

We need an open/ fair exchange of ideas and information. Reinventing the wheel does get old but at least it means people are learning by doing.

[94Doug]

Great Post Charger.

Doug

[geargnasher]

My whole life I have felt like I had to truly labor to be understood correctly. By the looks of things, I didn't labor enough here.

First, I took some offense myself to having four characteristics named as PERILS to a new caster. Not deeply personally, nor as an attack, but I took offense for ALL of the technically-oriented members here who try every day to DEMYSTIFY this simple hobby with a few tidbits of good, old fashioned, SCIENTIFIC FACT, and would identify with those named characteristics.

Am I the only one who got, if nothing else, a tremendous amount of negativity from that????? Are we trying to be positive and helpful, or just what ARE we trying to do here? My PERCEPTION was that the post's intent was partially to discredit people like me who can put real, translatable numbers to things for a new guy to understand halfway around the world and without pictures. I wanted very much to clarify my perception, so I questioned the INTENT. Did I take it as a personal attack? NO. Nor was it my intention to come off that way either. I had a lot of postive things to say, and pointed out the things I agreed with also, so why should it be confined to PM? I feel that a newbie needs the whole story, and not told in advance to be terrified of "complex" theories at first, and I was compelled to point that out. I wasn't attacking anyone, I was making some points and asking some questions to clarify. No better way to get to the point than to do the internet equivalent of looking someone straight in the eye and telling them exactly what you think about what they just said, then listening carefully to their response. I'm very used to being straight and direct with people, and if that ruffles a few feathers once in a while, I'm sorry, it's not intentional. I detest rudeness, and I try (believe it or not) very hard not to be rude to others, although what often offends others doesn't seem to bother me. I don't wear my feelings on my sleeve.

Again, Chargar, I wasn't trying to throw spears at you, but some of the things you said in your OP left a frown on my face and a huge question mark, and I thought that more viewers than just you and I would benefit from clearing that up. I hope we have.

Gear

[felix]

Both of you guys are great!!!!! Personal goals/objectives differ because of physical age, and it comes across in the presentation style. The concept of the girls getting prettier at closing time is true, and suggests a more general purpose approach naturally is taken by an older person. Using empathy is the best scenario for any and all salesmanship. That is the ONLY thing I got from a graduate level marketing class. ... felix

[btroj]

Not at all Gear.
I don't think PERILS was the best term but I can also understand what Chargar was getting at.
I DO ink at some of the newbies try to over think things. A guy who hasn't shot even 500 cast in his life is worried over BHN, mold temp, pot thermometers, what exactly his alloys is, does he need the extra .0158% Sn, etc. The newbies need to go cast some and shoot some first. I think they get so wrapped up in the details that it holds them back. It truly becomes " They can't see the forest for the trees".
We do have large amounts of very technical information here. It is needed. It is important. Like is frequently said, this is the Ph. D. of casting sites. Key to remember is that you don't find freshman in a graduate level course. That is what happens here at times.
I keep going back to one word that I believe sums up one of our biggest problems-CONTEXT. We have technical data and info but some applies to limited situations or has limited applications. These need to be fully understood. For example Gear has had specific examples where age growth of bullets has caused chambering troubles. I have not but I don't have any guns wi a tight chamber/bullet fit. Or maybe I haven't found one yet? Does this mean Gears experience is irrelevant? No. It just means that I need to be aware of the potential but I don't need to worry about it either. If it happens, I know what to do, what is causing it, and can move on. Why? Because I have enough experience to take Gears knowledge on this and keep it in CONTEXT. Should a newbie worry that his bullets are growing? Worry that he didn't size them at the right time? Worry that he has too much Sb or too little Sn? I say not really. Go shoot. If, or rather when, they have a specific trouble they should come and ask. But don't Fret over a detail that may never be an issue for you.

I have learned much on this site. I can also see, and often do, where we walk a fine line between helping a newbie and confusing the heck out of them. When a 15 year old asks me about proteins I don't tell them about ribosomal subunits, or mRNA, I just tells them how they are a basic building block for muscle. To know much beyond that they need CONTEXT and better understandings of the basics of biochem.

Pleas don't ever stop in your quest for knowledge Gear. I also applaud Chargar again for a great post. We may have some differences on the details guys but I think we all agree that information is important and needs to be shared. Can we also agree that too much info in the wrong hands is not a good thing? Information should expand the mind, sadly, it sometimes closes it instead.

[Bret4207]

Chargar, great post. Only thing I would add is for noobies not to get wrapped up in any "advertising hype". There is no one lube, no magic powder and putting silver in lead alloy doesn't make then shoot any better. Make boolits, load same, go shoot, have fun, LEARN.

[Char-Gar]

I used the term "peril' in the sense of something to be concerned about and kept under watch. I did not use it in the sense of an ultimate danger. Perhaps another words would have been better. All to often folks have different dictionaries in their heads and that makes communication very difficult at times. All to often folks misunderstand each other over a word and then take that misunderstand far deeper than warranted. I do believe that is the case here.

I went back and changed "peril" to "possible concern", to cast the post more in the direction of my intent. I certainly don't want one word to be a barrier or source of offense.

There are different kinds of folks with different kinds of brains. Some are wired for the technical and others are wired for the big picture and relationships. We have veterans and new casters here with both types of brains.

All new casters, regardless of how they are wired need to get off on the right foot until they come to a fork in the road, when they can go deeper into the technical or not depending on their own interests. We have a good supply of technical brain folks who can help them down the road as far as they want to go.

I am not a technical person and know my limitations. I do hold tech folks in high regard as they are the ones who have taken this craft way down the road. Felix is one of those giants in this field. At times, I have to read his posts a dozen times understand what he said, because he tech brain thinks in concepts that are alien to me. I would hate to think where we are casters and a nation would be without guys like that.

My whole purpose, goal and direction on this board is aimed at helping new and older casters find success with cast bullets and enjoy their shooting and firearms more. Those who have a tech brain can move on. Others will not want to do so.

I am just trying to help folks not get overwhelmed with information that confuses them or causes them to hunker down for fear they are doing some thing wrong. Both of these things happen.

We have folks who need and want a general approach and we have folks who need and want a specific approach. These types are represent on this board and often work at cross purposes with each other and misunderstand results. Both types of approaches are essential for this board.

So, I have no bone to pick with the tech folks. I am just trying to help folks in the best way I can. I realize my limitations when it comes to tech stuff, but I still want to make a positive contribution to the craft and this board with the tools I have.

[mroliver77]

I too think both Charger and gear had many valid points.

I think it would be helpful to have a newbie forum. It would be nice to have an information or articles section with some basic casting, sizing, loading cast articles posted. It can be rather painful searching the forum for information.

I can get frustrated when a newcomer looking for info is given a list of everything he "needs" to cast successfully. On the other hand it is very helpful to know about prepping and preheating a mold. It helps to get the pot temp somewhat correct. It really helps to know something about boolit fit before loading your first. I got pretty frustrated with leading early on.
Using the info in Lyman cast bullet book I bought the sizers they recommended and could not get the leading stopped. After reading Norm Johnson's stuff and then Verals book I started having great success.
Early success can be had with a hotplate, sauce pan, mold and Alox along with a good basic understanding of castboolitology.
Jay

[geargnasher]

NOW we're getting somewhere! Chargar and Brad, you both nailed it very well with your last posts, I couldn't agree more, and I think you both covered the issues in FULL context. I also find that we're on the same page, after all.

I think perhaps we could use a Newbie forum, right at the top, in the main section between castpic of the month and the classics/stickies. However, I also understand the issues already at hand with managing the insane number of sub-forums we already have, and I'm pretty sure the idea would fly about as good as a lead zepplin with the owndership and staff.

Gear

[SharpsShooter]

Chargar,

I believe you covered it perfectly in your OP. Cast, go forth and shoot. Many buffalo hunters cast on the coals of a chip fire without a Phd. in metallurgy and they were so impaired by that deficiency that they nearly wiped out an entire species.


SS

[btroj]

If I could grant one wish for every new caster it would be to have a knowledgable, experience caster teach them the basics. How and when to flux. How to tell when a mould is too hot or cold. How to size and lube. Good loading technique. How to tell what leading is, or isn't. In general, to give them the basic knowledge they need to be able to feed pretty much any gun they have.

[45nut]

gear,, the newbie forum is the classics and stickies area,, and it IS at the top.

[blackthorn]

I do not believe setting up a "newby's" forum would make things any better. It often seems some of the "new" folks can't be bothered to read even the "stickies" we have now. I am not overly gifted in the tech. terms and I often read some of the posts with a dictonary in one hand! When that happens I often wonder if some folks do thier drinking in the libary, but if I persevere I get there (I think)!!

[Bret4207]

Gotta agree with Ken. The info is all there and yet every week we see "Can I shoot a GC boolit with out a GC???". I think most people want to have someone hold their hand and walk them through it. Those of us that started when there was nothing but the Lyman book, Elmer, Skeeter and the like don;t see what the big deal is. Just do it. Now I would add, just read the stickies, it's all there.

[btroj]

Sadly we life in a "spoon feed me" world today. The search function works wonders too. The information is put there, it is FREE, yet nobody seems to look for it.

[gunnut14]

btroj, and all,
As one of the new casters here the only thing I can say is you have to know the proper termanology before you can use search.
Not the right words you get nothing of use ie: garbage in garbage out.
Maybe that is why you see the question "can I shoot a GC boolit without a GC"
But only a newbe's opinion and not worth much. By the way been loading 50+ years and casting 20+ but to everyone here I am a newbe due to the content of some of my questions.


gunnut14

[btroj]

Guunut, do you have any experienced casters near you? First hand learning will accelerate the process.
We don't mind the questions but after the 19th week in a row with the same question it can get old. Rather than using the search function try scrolling thru 15 pages or so in a particular forum area. You might be amazed at what you could learn.
Look thru the "stickies" at the top of each forum area. Lots of info there.

The info is here, it just takes some time to locate it all.

I just ran search using "no gas check" as the search term. Got lots of results. Even got a result directing me the the sticky " gas check bullets without gas checks". Like i said, the info is there. The forum doesn't have tome to "school" everyone.

[gunnut14]

btroj,
recently moved here due to health problems.
Here if not black rifle no one talks to you
Cast? Might as well be outcast.
Only cast is BP cartridge rifle and my rifles do not qualify, they are bolt action,and everyone knows you can not shoot cast in a bolt action, besides it is un Americal to try and shoot anything except a Buffalo rifle, don't believe just ask a question of a BP shooter here if they will even talk to you.

gunnut14

[462]

gunnut14,
I've been casting for only a few years. Shortly after starting, I found Cast Boolits and spent many months in the archive --the link is located at bottom of the page -- learning the terminology and what many of the abbreviations meant, in addition to getting a rather formal casting education.

Now that I'm become more casting knowledgable and experienced -- still a beginner, though, especially compared to someone with your experience -- it bothers me that so many abbreviations are used. I reckon that they cause many new and potential casters to scratch their heads and become confused and frustrated. I go out of my way to not use abbreviations, and will withstand the in-coming from those who do.

Here's an example of confusing abbreviation usage: PB in .44 Magnum
Does it mean a plain base boolit?
Does it mean IMR's PB powder?
Is it a typing error that was meant to be Pb? If so, it assumes that the reader knows what Pb means.

[btroj]

btroj,
recently moved here due to health problems.
Here if not black rifle no one talks to you
Cast? Might as well be outcast.
Only cast is BP cartridge rifle and my rifles do not qualify, they are bolt action,and everyone knows you can not shoot cast in a bolt action, besides it is un Americal to try and shoot anything except a Buffalo rifle, don't believe just ask a question of a BP shooter here if they will even talk to you.

gunnut14

We get garbage at the range for shooting lead too. I just ignore it. The people who say the most have the least experience and knowledge with cast.

I will tell you this- if you have a question and don't want to ask it openly, send me a PM. I will do my best to help you.

462- I too dislike all the abbreviations. I will at time use PB for plain base. The abbreviations leave too much to question at times. I am a firm believer in good communication skills, although I spell horribly.

[Wayne Smith]

I'll go back to Btroj's earlier post about context. This has been one of my gripes for some time and I've posted about it. Most of us old folks have gotten better, threads don't frequently confuse rifle and pistol casting/loading techniques any more. It is important that we pay attention to our context and general subject when we write, not just jump in with an idea that is not directly related to the thread. Those who post without reading the whole thread are now the worst offenders.

I'm not talking about thread drift here. I'm talking about someone who jumps into a thread on loading the 44Mag in revolvers and posts about gas checks on 30 caliber boolits. We have had some threads that have confused me. There is probably no solution to this, impulsivity isn't quickly or easily changed. Awareness is all I ask.

Mods, I do recommend this thread for a stickie, though. I don't think it should get lost in the background.

[geargnasher]

There's a sticky on abbreviations and acronyms, too, in the classics and stickies section. It clarifies a lot of the termminology.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=107406

Gear

[btroj]

The only problem with a sticky is getting the newbies to utilize them.

Wayne was dead on about my use of the term context. We get too many threads where we are discussing loading one specific cartridge for a specific use and the info gets extrapolated to include everything.

We had a thread on annealing 45-70 cases. A guy says anneal every load, that is what the BPCR guys do. My problem is that BPCR is a very specialized game using only black and at low pressure compared to say a Ruger no 1. Does annealing make a difference in the Marlin I use for hu ting at 50 yards? I doubt it. Does it at 500 meters in BPCR, I am sure it does. Specific tech iques from one game may not translate well I to other shooting games. How different are the needs of an IMSHA shooter as opposed to an IPSC guy? Different needs means different techniques.

Back to what Chargar said at the beginning. Not everything discussed on this site is relevant at all times. A new guy can be very successful with a small outlay for equipment and very basic techniques and knowledge. The newbie doesn't "require" a thermometer, hardness tester, certified alloys, etc. He just needs some lead alloy, a mould, and a way to melt the lead. Sizing may not be required. Yet we see threads here where people list the items "required" for casting. I shot cast for over 25 years and just recently bought my firs micrometer yet they seem required. Al my success must have just been dumb luck.

We should not be throwing Ph D info at a high school graduate of casting. I think it holds them back as they cast see the forest for the trees. I don't think it is wrong to do what colleges do, give watered down, easy to digest, yet valid info and save the gory details for later. If the newbie requests more detailed I fo they could even be told that it will come in time, once they are ready. College courses do frequently have prerequisites.

Brad

[Wayne Smith]

Probably the greatest tool of a formal education is a structured approach to the information and a structured reading list. I am given the information in a gradual way where more complex information builds on simpler information. I am given a structure, a learning tree, if you will, that allows me to hang facts and inter-relate them in meaningful ways. Most of the work of organization and structure is done for me.

Learning by doing, on the other hand, provides me with information in a much less structured and organized manner. If I want to understand the how's and why's, which is necessary to move into a deeper knowledge, I have to think, understand, and build my own learning tree on which to hang the knowledge I am finding. This requires work, a lot of experience, and significant reflection on what I know and how it may fit with what I have recently learned.

Not everybody is trained to reflect and many avoid the work. Some get stuck at a particular point and assume everything is related to what they now know. The learning process itself creates problems. You guys taught me the use a micrometer - that opened a whole new world to me. By God, everybody ought to have one and know what I know - but I don't find that word in the Bible, so it's not 'by God', it's 'by Wayne', with a lot less authority. Some buy Lee products and they solve all their problems, so Lee (insert ANY manufacturer) is the best and everyone ought to know. Except that Lee products have caused problems for some, so maybe my experience isn't universal.

No, Ken, I'm not suggesting a reorganization!! Just to accept that we cannot be a formal educational site. That's not what we started as, not what we intended, nor that to which we should aspire. Because of this we need to include greater meaning or a learning tree as often as we can.

We have, or had, a very long and good thread on loading one particular cartridge to extreme for cast levels. It was very specific to that cartridge. It had several techniques in it that may or may not extrapolate to other cartridges. This is not high school stuff, it is post graduate. That thread in particular made that point multiple times and was excellent because of that. We need to do that more often.

That's all I am saying, be aware when you post.

[blackthorn]

Unless a new (to us) caster posts his/her level of prior casting experience, the people on this board have no idea wheather he/she has never cast before or if it is someone with years of experience who has run onto a problem and needs help, or is just curious. If I throw a question out and I get replies that are beyond my current level of understanding it is up to me to either rephrase the question, provide more information, or buckel down and do the research to get the answer I need. Thats likely why I spend so much time reading prior posts and stickies, with a dictionary in one hand while I am studying some of the posts! If I post a question and get more information than I may have bargined for, it is MY responsibility to do with it what I will. I like this board the way it is and personally would not like to see the free flow of information changed in any way. Have a great day!!

[Char-Gar]

blackthorn... I agree with you completely and would not want this board to change either. I was only trying to give the new folks some basic board navigation tool. I do not suggest that anything be change or anybody change the way they respond to posts.

[Wayne Smith]

Thank you Blackthorn for articulating the other side of the equasion. Responsibility lays on both sides.

[ErikO]

For the record, I'm very new to casting in lead and I don't feel overwhelmed or suffering from any lack of traction. :)

[Wayne Smith]

My son the author was reading part of this thread and made a cogent comment. He mentioned that anyone dedicated enough to cast their own boolits has to have a higher than average intelligence and ability to learn. I had to agree. That is a characteristic of our board.

[mroliver77]

My son the author was reading part of this thread and made a cogent comment. He mentioned that anyone dedicated enough to cast their own boolits has to have a higher than average intelligence and ability to learn. I had to agree. That is a characteristic of our board.
I think there are a few that just wandered in to see why the light was on!! (me?)
J

[hiram1]

THE TRUTH OF IT IS if i had not got on here. and the guys had not took the time to chat and help me i would of never tryed it but now im hooked. and men i do thank you !!

[Char-Gar]

hiram.. do not sniff, snort, ingest or mainline lead, as it is very bad for your health. Otherwise hooked is OK. :-)

[oscarflytyer]

Charger

I am new, and yet I tend to get caught up in the paralysis by analysis myself!

When in doubt, I just look up at all my dead skins and feathers that I use for fly tying and fly fishing - and then remember that if I read into the paralysis by analysis of flyfishing, I would have to sit at home and make clay pots...!

[metweezer]

Chargar, I loved your OP and follow-ups. Gear, IMHO you should have started your own rebuttal post and not jumped all over Chargar's. :popcorn:

[Char-Gar]

Metweezer...Thank you for you kind remarks. It was my hope the post would be of help to folks and give them some confidence to move ahead with their cast bullet shooting.

I have spend many years in the area of formal education, on both the receiving and giving ends. I have noticed that many teachers are far more interested in displaying their knowledge rather than imparting their knowledge. A demonstration of their superior knowledge is the goal and often the students are left hanging and confused.

Teaching involves finding out where the students are in their knowledge and leading them to the next step and then the next and so on. If a teacher jumps from step 1 to step 10, there is not much learning going on. Learners should and may want to go on to 10 and beyond, but they need to do 1-9 first. Some may zip through 1 - 9 at blazing speed and others may need more time and indeed top at a lower number and be very happy. At least that is my opinions and the concern behind the original post.

[colt 357]

Well I am in the simple step yet. just casting sizing slugging bore and working out loads. I haven't started the hardness of the bullet maybe this winter when I have more time to read up on it. I just been doing the KISS (keep it simple stupid).
To be honest my shooting isn't good anuff yet to do anything more then the basics. I feel going pass the basics would be a waste of time till my shooting gets better. But has improved alot because casting my own has got me more trigger time.