45 cowboy special

[WARD O]

So, school me here a bit.... I would like to know more about this new 45.

I am assuming that this caliber came about as an attempt to reduce the case volumn of the 45 Colt for better preformance in some of the current Cowboy action shooting evens.

Is it intended to be shot in the 45 Colt cylinder? This would be much like shooting a 22 short in a 22 long rifle chamber.

Is it for use in the 45 acp cylinders?

Would you use it in the Ruger convertible in the acp cylinder and crimp the boolit?

****What is your accuracy experience shooting it in the 45 Colt cylinders?***

Does it have an application beyond the Cowboy action events?

Thanks
Ward

[bigboredad]

it is to be shot in a regular cylinder not the acp.and yes it is like shootin 22 shorts. as far as accuracy I have never shot them but I shoot a lot of acp ammo with great results. As far as application I would think it would be great any time you don't want a ton of air space in you case. Personally since I have a convertible it would not be worth it to me. But that is a decision each person needs to make on their own. I do think it is a cool idea however my experience is the .45 colt prefers longer heavier bullets ymmv

[subsonic]

It also aids extraction - shorter case requires less stroke from the ejector rod.

I beleive it is NOT legal for CAS. See the rule book on-line.

[Larry Gibson]

Not legal for SASS CAS as the rule states; Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt).

There was some side bar discussion at End Of Trail and most agreed the 45 Cowboy Special was not "readily available". Some use the .45 Schofield as brass and loaded ammunition is "readily available" now. I suppose if some manufacturer makes the Cowboy Special ammo it might be legal(?). I'm no expert here on the rules just going by what they currently say, perhaps someone has more updated info?

I don't see any ejection advantage because a reload of the revolver isn't a part of the stages, that's why they use 2 revolvers so they don't have to reload.

Larry Gibson

[subsonic]

I think I remember reading that at one time a reload was required, but I have never seen it done at any matches I have worked at our local range. Shorter cartridge would allow a shorter barrel (shorter ejector rod), FWIW.

One of these days I may have an extra $2000+ around to buy guns to play this game.. I have one single action revolver (with adjustable sights in a caliber I wouldn't want for this game) that I could use for some of the classes if I bought another SA to go with it. I would have to buy a pistol caliber lever gun and a twice barreled shotgun. And holster, clothing....

[WARD O]

Does anyone have anything to say about accuracy with this short 45 in the longer chamber?

thanks
ward

[subsonic]

Accuracy = for cowboy action shooting, it will not matter!

[lathesmith]

Accuracy can be a subjective thing, and what's acceptable for one isn't good enough for others. Me, I have used the 45 CS in my 45 Colt revolvers, and they seem to like it fine, in fact it is easier to achieve light loads that are more accurate in my revolvers than with the longer Colt brass. For me, getting 1" off-hand groups at 50 feet with light loads is much easier to obtain in MY 45 revovers, with either the 45 CS, or in the case of my 58 Remmy conversion, a 45ACP.

Just ask the guys who have 45 ACP cylinders for their Blackhawks, how accurate they are. I still see the nonsense about how with all that air space in front of the bullet in the cylinder they can't possibly shoot well. That sounds good in theory, by my actual experience is much different; the shorter loads are some of the most accurate in any of my 45 Colt revolvers.

lathesmith

[cowboy]

Howdy- I think what they are talking about is the longer "JUMP" from the mouth of the short CASE to the smaller diameter throat of the cylinder ( in 45 Colt), which is not a factor in the 45 ACP cylinder, with it's chambers in correct short proportion to the cases used, though the smaller diameter throat IS longer, it is (or should be) correctly proportioned for the bullets used; presumably there is less bullet deformation taking place in the ACP cylinder shooting the correct case for the chamber.
THAT being said by this guy who has two of the dual cylinder Blackhawks in 45 Colt/ACP, who had considered shorter cases for use in his 45 Colt Vaqueros, I ended up trying, with great results in my guns, anyway, the use of 45 Schofield brass loads.
More like the 44 Magnum / 44 Special or 357Magnum/ 38 Special interchange ( Yes, I am well aware that many on this site feel this is not good practice, while others have not had problems with such, and simply clean their guns well ).
Accuracy with lighter bullets was actually BETTER in the Schofield brass ( using my loads, in my guns ). The smaller case capacity does seem to help quite a bit with lighter loads.
Your mileage may vary!

[WARD O]

That is pretty much what I was looking for. I have several revolvers in 45 cal and have only recently seriously tried to shoot the 45 acp in one of my Ruger convertibles and was very pleasantly surprise by the degree of accuracy it exhibited. I then tried the other one I have and it too shot very well. I had previously assumed the acp cylinder was mostly a marketing feature - thinking it just couldn't shoot well.

I have some brass coming and will be playing with some 45 special loads in my favorite, a 4 5/8 BH, that shoots heavier loads very well. It would be nice to find something a little more user friendly for longer shooting sessions. Maybe I'll even give the Colt SAA a try....

Ward

[Springfield]

The 45 Cowboy special is used in CAS/SASS shooting all the time, don't know where you guys got the illegal part. The brass is readily available from Adirondack Jack and loaded ammo is now available also. I tried some trying to get a lighter load for my wife but since it didn't feed in an unaltered rifle I went with 45 Schofield instead. LOTS of people have great accuracy with 38 special in .357 guns. I think the "bullet jump" thing is overdone.

[white eagle]

I use the C S and have no issues whatsoever

[Larry Gibson]

The 45 Cowboy special is used in CAS/SASS shooting all the time, don't know where you guys got the illegal part. The brass is readily available from Adirondack Jack and loaded ammo is now available also. I tried some trying to get a lighter load for my wife but since it didn't feed in an unaltered rifle I went with 45 Schofield instead. LOTS of people have great accuracy with 38 special in .357 guns. I think the "bullet jump" thing is overdone.

There you go. If it became "readily available" it is legal.

Springfield and White Eagle; loads?

Larry Gibson

[MakeMineA10mm]

The Cowboy Special was an effort to reduce the empty space in the case from the Cowboy mouse phart loads.

The interesting thing about it now is that they made replacement lifters for Henry/66/73s, so you could also shoot the same ammo in your rifle. THAT is what got me interested. I always wanted a 66 that shot a center-fire version of the original 44 Henry Flat RF. After doing some research and thinking, I settled on the 44 Russian case with the Original (first edition) BigLube RNFP custom mould that was ordered over at the SASSWire around 10 years ago. Problem was there was no way to get it to work in the rifle/carbine. (The OAL I load to is the same OAL as the 44 Henry, and this is short enough that the 44 Special 66 would jam by feeding two rounds onto the lifter.)

Then, I ran across Adirondak Jack's conversion, and called him about making my 44 Henry CF dream come true. I had to shave about .030" off the cartridge stop, but it works slick as snot now! :Fire:

As far as the bullet jump goes, I've had no issues with accuracy problems. Theoretically, in a target gun, in a better caliber, it would probably be noticeable, but in a 150-year old design in a straight-walled, low-power (essentially a pistol caliber), there's no noticeable accuracy issues at 50 yards at all, and may be unnoticeable at 100 yards. (I never shot my 66 in 44 Spl. at 100 yards before the conversion, so I have no basis for comparison there.)

[cabezaverde]

I thought I read somewhere on the web (Rugerforum?) that this brass could be used in the Blackhawk 45acp cylinders without any modification. Anyone know anything about that?

[bigboredad]

I don't believe you can use the acp cylinder. The reason for the brass was to give the cowboy's a case that would work in your regular cylinder but had the capacity of the acp brass.

[cabezaverde]

Found the post:

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=9206&sid=1b208819816cfbb4d6d3f94b7138c34c

Very interesting.

I took an old 45 colt case and cut it shorter than an acp case with a tubing cutter. Ran it through a 45 acp sizer, and installed it in my Blackhawk acp cylinder. Gun functions fine, and cylinder will rotate all the way around. This will work, as the rim on the 45 cowboy brass is the same thickness as a 45 colt.

I guess the only big advantage is headspacing from the rim instead of the case mouth as with the acp.

[cabezaverde]

That is pretty much what I was looking for. I have several revolvers in 45 cal and have only recently seriously tried to shoot the 45 acp in one of my Ruger convertibles and was very pleasantly surprise by the degree of accuracy it exhibited. I then tried the other one I have and it too shot very well. I had previously assumed the acp cylinder was mostly a marketing feature - thinking it just couldn't shoot well.

I have some brass coming and will be playing with some 45 special loads in my favorite, a 4 5/8 BH, that shoots heavier loads very well. It would be nice to find something a little more user friendly for longer shooting sessions. Maybe I'll even give the Colt SAA a try....

Ward

Ward,

Could I ask a favor of you? Could you measure the height of your front sight on your 4 5/8" Blackhawk and let me know what you get? How old is yours?

[Bret4207]

Accuracy can be a subjective thing, and what's acceptable for one isn't good enough for others. Me, I have used the 45 CS in my 45 Colt revolvers, and they seem to like it fine, in fact it is easier to achieve light loads that are more accurate in my revolvers than with the longer Colt brass. For me, getting 1" off-hand groups at 50 feet with light loads is much easier to obtain in MY 45 revovers, with either the 45 CS, or in the case of my 58 Remmy conversion, a 45ACP.

Just ask the guys who have 45 ACP cylinders for their Blackhawks, how accurate they are. I still see the nonsense about how with all that air space in front of the bullet in the cylinder they can't possibly shoot well. That sounds good in theory, by my actual experience is much different; the shorter loads are some of the most accurate in any of my 45 Colt revolvers.

lathesmith


Ain't that the truth. IRC I have yet to even put the 45 Colt cylinder in my BH Convertible!

[white eagle]

I have used the CS in the acp cylinder
NO Problem

[smkummer]

If it was not obvious, one loads 45 special brass with 45 ACP dies but with the 45 Colt shellholder. Neat idea that they used the case length of the acp case.

[cajun shooter]

I have to laugh when people who have never shot a SASS match in their lives chose to go on a forum and post what they believe are the rules. Let me first say that it does not cost $2000 or more dollars to become involved either. Most clubs will give a new shooter as long as a year to obtain the proper clothing of the period. You may cut off the belt loops from a pair of jeans and add suspenders and a Henley type shirt from Walley World. If you have never read a SASS rule Book, shot in any SASS matches or attended any SASS functions then I would thank you for not posting any false information about our sport. Yes, it is a sport where the entire family is welcome and we have many shooting categories to fit everyone. You are more than welcome to attend any matches and watch and ask questions about what each shooter is doing. You may go at it from a historical point and pick a person who lived during that time period to copy or make up one. We have husband and wives who are new shooters and they share one set of guns until another may be purchased. The 45 Cowboy was not designed by AJ to take up room in the case. It was designed for those that shoot the 45 Colt but wanted a quicker shooting, less recoil revolver for what is called Gamer shooting. It allows those who shoot the 45 Colt to compete with those that shoot the 38 spl.You can look at the SASS home page and find the SASS rule book to help you along. We are always looking for cowboys to join in the fun.