Need help finding accuracy with my 1894SS

[ShrinkMD]

I tried out some 240 gr lswc loads I made up with Unique 10 gr. Thankfully they all cycled just fine, but the accuracy (at 50 yds, to sight in with the factory sights, for now) was awful. We're talking all over the target printed on a piece of standard copy paper.

I've read about slugging bores and sometimes the Marlin lever actions being a bit big. I usually order from Dardascast bullets. Would it be easier for me to order 100 rounds in each larger diameter size and just shoot them all to figure out what the gun likes?

Its funny, because I was shooting my 357 revolver the other day with some .357 sized (I ordered incorrectly) cast bullets, and they were shooting as well as the .358 I had.

Does my problem sound more gun related? This is a new "Remlin" Marlin made recently at the NY plant, so I've read all kinds of horror stories on the internet about the problems they have. Mine seemed like a good one, since the action is smoothing out and it fed the SWC shape no problem. Maybe just bad trigger and sights?

At least the load didn't lead the barrel. It's pretty funny looking into that giant bore and cleaning it out. No mysteries of what is in there, you can see all the way through! No borescope needed!

[zuke]

How many round's down the tube so far?
Perhap's you still have burr's that need ironing out?

[ShrinkMD]

Only 20 of hardcast lead so far. It's just a baby.

[PacMan]

Lot of things to look at but first thing i will say is that you cannot base the accuracy or lack of on one load.
You could buy every size sutiable and it may still not like your load.
Have you shot any factory loads thur ir and how did it do with them.

[btroj]

I have found that my Marlins all seem to do best with a bullet where the nose tapers smoothly into the bore rise portion. SWC and others with that sharp shoulder do not shoot near as well for me. My 45 Colt is pretty easy going about bullets but my 357 is extremely picky. It shoots 3 inch groups at 25 with a Lee swc. The 358156 will do 2 to 3 inches at 50 but that wasn't what I wanted. I got a 359640 mould an it will shoot 2 to 3 inches at 100. That was what I was after.
Moral of the story- keep trying different bullets. Sometimes the gun is just a bit picky about shape, weight, etc and you need to find what it wants.
As for the "Remlin" problems- I don't buy into all of that. I haven't seen any and I can tell you that any manufacturer can put out a crappy gun from time to time. I don't look at that one as a good example of the standard. I doubt you got a bad gun.

[ShrinkMD]

What would be the most logical plan? I have some factory american eagle 240 jsp and a few Hornady 240 xtp rounds to try.

I was planning on ordering cast bullets soon anyway. Would it make sense to order 100 of each type and sizing? Or should I just get another 500 of the 240 swc and play with powder/load? I previously made up some bullseye 6 gr which had a very low SD.

Ah well, at least my 357 cast loads are going well. 13.5 gr of 2400 is fun, and shot well.

[btroj]

You can run some jacketed thru it and that will give you a good idea of what it can do. You will need to clean the copper out after that but it gives you a baseline.

What size were the bullets? Many of the Marlins do better with a .432 or so bullet.

SD is not a good indicator of accuracy. Seems strange but it is true.

Buying bullets makes this harder as you are relying on someone else to determine alloy, lube, and size. You eliminate your ability to have total control over those factors.

[ShrinkMD]

I know. I've been scrounging wheel weights, but too many hobbies and not enough time!

The dardas are bhn 16 and so far I haven't had leading worth complaining over.

[Unclenick]

Slug the bore. My 1895's, at least, do noticeably better with bullets sized 0.002" over-groove than with the general purpose 0.001" over-groove prescription. I've heard the same is true for other chamberings. Use lead slugs, not casting alloy, in a lightly lubed bore for slugging, and a micrometer for the measuring.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Shrink: My 1894 has a .431 groove dia, and this is a fairly common size though I have heard of .432 barrels.

My gun seems to shoot .431's and .432 's well. It also shoots the American Eagle ammo you have fairly well (3" at 50 yds) it is the only factory ammo that gun has ever shot.

My cast boolits will group much tighter,

Mine seems to be in a good spot with 22gr of H110 which is about 1600fps. I primarily use Lyman 429244 GC 255gr for this gun and most all of my .44 magnums and specials.

I need a .432 size die in order to shoot bigger ones which I want to try soon.

These guns have 1 in38" twist barrels and will only shoot so well so don't be disappointed by a 2" group at 50 yds. That is actually pretty good for an iron sighted rifle. I have seen some that were better but nobody actually knew why. Also the first 3 shot out of a cold barrel is as good as it is going to get. When things heat up in these rifles accuracy starts to drift. Just the nature of the lever action design.

Randy

[EDK]

Go to lasc.us and read Glenn Fryxell's article on 1894 MARLINS...and all the others too! marlinowners.com has a lot of useful information also.

Quick answer is go to ranchdogoutdoors and get one of his TLC 432 265 moulds in a six cavity version and one of his .432 press mounted sizing dies. This is one of the best boolits I've used in several 44 MARLIN Cowboy Rifles...and d*** good in my VAQUEROS (it cleans residual lead from the bores.) Cast it a bit harder than you usually use and follow his instructions for LEE LIQUID ALOX, JPW or 45/45/10, etc. I like this boolit so much that I bought the plain base, lube groove version from NOE....you don't need gas checks at 1000 fps or less in a 44.

I HAD one the early 1894SS guns, but it just didn't agree with me for various reasons...I really like my 24 inch Cowboy Rifles. My step son's boys love it.

:Fire::castmine::redneck:

[harvey45]

Hi my son has the 1894ss in 44 magnum. For his accuracy load he loves a 240 grain drycreek bullet with 7.6 grains of universal. it shoots out at about 1024fps from his marlin. It also shoots really well in my 4 inch S&W 44 mag.
For bear protection my son shoots a 300 grain bullet but my gunsmith had to work on the gun so it will cycle smooth enough. I shoot a 310 grain gas check boolit with 10 grains of vita n350 for my 4 inch S&W as we both do ATV ing in the mountains of northern california
In your marlin a 250 to 270 grain bullet will be fine preferably moly load just a few tenths down.

[ShrinkMD]

Ok, my bullets came in the mail, so this weekend I want to make some loads.

I have .430 and .431 sized bullets in 180gr and 200gr rnfp, and I picked up a box of hornady xtp 240gr I have Bullseye, Unique, and 2400. I'm assuming 2400 is the best choice for that long carbine barrel.

Can someone suggest some likely accuracy loads for these powders? I just got the Bullsbag rest, so hopefully I'll be able to get a better idea of which bullet/load combination shoots best, despite the so-so stock sights and trigger.

My plan is to make the same load with both sizes of bullets. That way instead of slugging I will have more direct evidence if what the gun likes to shoot.

[ShrinkMD]

I shot some of my loads yesterday, and the accuracy was pitiful. Maybe I'm just so used to aperture sights that I'm clueless with the buckhorns? I don't know, but it looked like shotgun pellets at 100 yds. I was shooting 200 gr lead RNFP bullets over 21 gr of 2400. They were going about 1650.

Something tells me I really need to change the sights to the Williams receiver peep and the smaller front sight, as well as getting the Wild West trigger. I already have a good rifle rest.

I was also trying 0.430 vs 0.431 bullets. Interestingly, over 20 shot samples, the 0.431 shot 1678 with an SD of 17.9, whereas the 0.430 shot 1653 with SD of 24.9 I think I need to shoot a larger sample to see if this is statistically significant, but it looks like the bigger bullet is sealing the bore and getting a more uniform burn?

I shot 5 of the American Eagle JHP I have left, and three were pretty close to each other, but the other two were at different ends of the target completely. The three close together were about 6 inches to the right of the target, however.

So the gun is fun, but so far I can shoot rings around it with my 39A using crappy bulk pack ammo. Of course, that gun has a nice tang peep, thin front sight, and a trigger job!

To be continued...

[Leadforbrains]

Hey Shrink.
My favorite Load for my Marlin is a 265 gr boolit over 16.5 grs of 2400. It is a mild load that is very accurate in my Marlin. I also like 7.5 grs of universal with a 250 gr SWC. I was getting good accuracy with my boolits sized at .431, but I am now experimenting with .433 sized boolits now and accuracy is still good.
I agree with you on the buckhorn sights as my eyes are getting older they are getting harder to use. If that is the case with you also move your target to the 50 yard line. Start your experimenting from there and then move farther back.
I just put a skinner sight on my .444P outfitter and I thinking about putting one on my 1894 as well.
I hope this helps and good luck to you sir.

[Leadforbrains]

1kshooter has a thread over in the hunting section about his great success with his 1894 and his loads. You should read that as it is very informative.

[Larry Gibson]

"LSWC"? are we talking a harder cast lswc or a softer swaged lswc?

Also while 10 gr Unique is an excellent load with a harder cast 240 gr SWC in most revolvers it can be a bit too much for that bullet in 10"+ single shots and rifles. The velocity of that load out of my 6 1/2" Ruger BHFT is 1175 fps. Out of a longer rifle barrel it is quite a bit higher. Two problems there; 1st it is going subsonic about 50 yards and the bullet may be getting buffeted too much to maintain adequate stability. 2nd, pushing a PB, especially a BB'd one, that fast is many times just not accurate with pistol bullets.

I've found with pistol cartridges I load for accuracy in the rifle, not exceeding handgun data, and just accept that load in the pistol. With PB'd harder cast bullets (WW alloy or harder) best accuracy will come between 900 and 1200 fps in rifles. Suggest you slow down the load with the bullet you are using. Try starting at 7.5 gr Unique with the bullet you are using (if a harder alloy cast bullet) and work up to 9.5 gr in 1/2 gr increments. The accuracy at 50 yards will tell you when you've pushed the bullet too hard.

Larry Gibson

[ShrinkMD]

Thanks for the info. I will definitely read that other thread. I will have to try some lighter Unique or even Bullseye loads to get the velocity down.

The bullets were hardcast bhn 16 bevel base from Dardascast. So for cast lead keep under 1200 fps out of the 1894 using pistol bullets?

I guess I'm lucky any made it to the target at all. My mosins shoot better with surplus. But your explanation about the pistol bullets going too fast and getting unstable is interesting.

So for high speed loads, I would need to use jacketed rounds like the Hornady xtp?

[Larry Gibson]

ShrinkMD

In a M94 .44 I found 7.5 gr Unique to be a very good load under commercial cast 240 gr SWCs. Velocity should be right around 1000 fps out of your Marlin.

For high speed magnum level loads the Hornady 240 XTP over 23 gr H110 with a magnum primer has always been a top performer for me in revolver, single shot or rifle. Very deadly on deer and pigs. However for cast I was using the Lyman 429244 HP'd with a 1/8" Forster HP tool. Lately I have been using the Lyman "Devastator" 429640 HP instead. I cast hem of WWs + 2% tin and then lead at 50/50. Mine weight 275 gr fully dressed with Hornady GC and Javelina lube. Over the same load of 23 gr H110 in WW cases with CCI 350 primers they run 1486 fps out of my 8.4" Contender at a measured 30,200 psi(M43). Accuracy is excellent. I imagine they would run close to 1550 fps out of your Marlin. They are truely "devastating" on game BTW. There is a thread in the hunting forum by an Aussie who uses them out of handgun and rifle on pigs, well worth your effort to check it out as it has lots of photos.

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

In my Marlin I use 19 grs of AA #9 under a mould quenched 260 gr LFN gas check bullet sized .432 and lubed with LBT Blue. Shoots pretty good.

[TCFAN]

I use 9.5grs of Unique with a Lee 200gr. RFN boolit in my 20 inch Marlin. It clocks 1350 10 feet from the muzzle. Groups at 50 yards run in the one and half inch range for 5 shots with peep sights.

If you want to see how accurate your Marlin is you need a good scope. If that is not a option then a Williams receiver sight and a Lyman 17-A up front at the very least.

My rifle likes .432 or larger boolits.My mold for the Lee 200round flat nose drops at .434X.432 and I size .433 in a H and I lube die. Other molds I beagle................Terry

[longbow]

My Marlin a is a microgoove with the 1:38" twist. Barrel slugs to 0.4315" groove diameter.

I started out many years ago using a Lyman 429421 which never did feed well (to long if seated to crimp groove plus shoulder hangs up on chamber mouth), never shot real well and also leaded some.

Turns out the boolit cast at 0.429"/0.430" so was undersize which explains leading and less than stellar accuracy.

It also turns out that my Marlin had the typical tight spots under sights so I lapped those out.

Now it shoots pretty well with boolits sized from 0.432" to 0.434". No leading, good accuracy.

I am usually loading the H&G #503 SWC at 245 grs or the Mihec 434640 at... well, a little heavier depending on hollow point pin. In any case, both those go over 22grs. IMR4227 with no problems and good results. Both are PB boolits and give me no problem but a safer bet for high velocity loads is to go GC boolits.

I used to load the 429421 over Unique at 10 to 12 grs. which shot reasonably well and didn't lead any more than other loads. I have not used Unique under the #503 or 434640 so can't comment.

There's some good advice in this thread so far and my take is that the boolit hardness seems okay and powder charge not excessive so I would look to boolit fit first. If you can get 0.432" to 0.433" that should fill any typical Marlin groove diameter. Give that a go and see how they do.

As suggested, it certainly wouldn't hurt to drop the powder charge a bit to see how that works as well.

It is not hard to slug the barrel though, then you know what you have and can size accordingly at 0.001" to 0.002" over groove diameter.

Keep trying, you will get it sorted out.!

Longbow

[Thumbcocker]

FWIW my Marlins all like to be shot from the bench with the nonshooting hand between the forearm and teh bag and pulling the butt back into the shoulder firmly. 429244 over 18 of 2400 has been good to me.

[NHlever]

For a full house load, I have gone to 23.0 grains of H-110 behind either the Hornady 240 grain XTP, or the Lyman #429244 sized to .431-.4432 depending on the gun. This load has worked, fed, and shot well from all my .44 mag guns I see no need to push any other boolit that hard though I have been playing a bit with the 429215 boolit to see what it will do. So far the accuracy is a bit behind the heavier boolits in all my guns. Mild loads of Unique, Universal, etc. handle most of my shooting with just about any .44 boolit, and in truth would handle most anything I need, or want to shoot though I have to admit that the 48" -50", or so bull Moose I saw last fall in the woods behind the house at about 50 yards sure looked pretty big. A yearling bull came out, and stood behind him as I was watching, and just made the big guy look bigger. Still, I'll bet that guy would be easier to kill with my go to load than he would be to drag out of the spot I saw him in. :D The 300 grainers look cool, are fun to cast, and have impressive recoil for such a small case, but I really doubt they kill most things much better than the 240-250 grain bullets/boolits.

[ShrinkMD]

I made up a batch of 44 Specials, (since I have a 629 with the nicest trigger I've ever shot) and I figured I would try them in the Marlin, since I haven't shot it in quite a while, and had sort of given up on it. I was shooting 180gr RNFP bullets over Trail Boss 6.0 gr. I measured this load out of a 4" revolver and they were averaging about 810. I need to measure them out of the rifle.

The good news is, I was staying on paper at 50 and 100 yards. Probably about 4moa at 50, and 8moa or a drop more at 100. Of course, this is bone stock, with the crappy trigger and plain buckhorn sights. I am going to start working a little harder on finding a Trail Boss or Unique load with the 180 or 200 gr RNFP bullets. Slower definitely seems to work better, and avoiding the LSWC style also seems to have helped. I was so happy seeing them all clustering together despite moving the target out to 100 yards!

The inside of the barrel was clean, no leading at all. I was expecting something, but the gun was very clean after 100 rounds of the Trail Boss load.

I'll report back with more info. I also have some materials to slug the barrel, so I will do that as well. Looks like I might be getting some more use out of this gun! I guess I need to start experimenting with the RNFP bullets in my 357 Marlin as well...

[sthwestvictoria]

Did you end up slugging the barrel? This is the best tutorial on slugging I have seen with a great lands/grooves/bore diagram:
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

I have found with trail boss it can vary quite wildly from the inaccurate load to the accurate one. Unlike other mid-burning rate powders like varget (AR2208) where groups shrink evenly as you approach an accurate load, I found that Trail Boss sprayed at a certain load and only 0.5grain up or down pulled in the group significantly.

If you go lower than 6.0grains I would be checking the barrel or target to ensure every boolit exits!

good write up, glad you came back from 2011!

[ShrinkMD]

I didn't slug yet, it's on my list of things to do.

Another question: I made up some more loads with 6.5gr of Trail Boss, and some 7.5gr of Unique (I have worked these up before for my revolver)

Using the same 180gr bullet, would Unique be ok in the 44 magnum cases? I have some data from Loaddata.com which suggested 11gr as a starting load for the 180gr lead bullet in 44 magnum. Would those likely end up going too fast for the rifle?

[lovedogs]

These Marlins remind me of what an old friend used to tell me..."each gun is a law unto itself." Sometimes things work that aren't supposed to work. And other times what should work, doesn't. My own 1894 Cowboy is one of those. The original barrel was full of rust when bought new. Marlin rebarreled it. The new barrel's interior looks like it was cut with a file, pretty rough looking. But it shoots so well and doesn't lead that I just ignore it's unsightly appearance. It slugs .4315. My Saeco 250 gr. RNFP GC bullet falls out at .430 using a Lyman #2 alloy. I thought it was going to be a disaster, that it would lead and not shoot well at all. I ran it through a Saeco .430 sizer and lubed with Larsen's 50/50. I never tried any fast powders or reduced loads. I've had good luck using 2400 with cast so that's what I started with. It shot mmm...okay, but not what I would call good. Then I tried a load that has worked well in every .44 I've had...a CCI mag primer and 23 gr. H-110. That came out the 24 inch barrel at 1860 FPS and shoots into about 1 1/4 inch 100 yd. groups with an old 3X Weaver scope mounted. It doesn't lead at all and does well out to 250 yds. on silhouettes. I limit deer shooting with this caliber to just over 100 yds. and consider this a good thumper. According to all conventional knowledge it shouldn't shoot well and should lead. I guess the bullet obturates up and seals well. It shoots a lot better than I thought it would.

[ShrinkMD]

I did some more experimenting with loads. Today I shot some Trail Boss 7.6gr 180 gr rnfp loads with both .430 and .431 sized bullets out of 44 Magnum cases. There really wasn't any accuracy difference as far as I can tell. Then I shot some 240 lswc over Unique 10gr in Magnum cases, and those shot as well (0.430 bullet)

The gun is not a tackdriver yet, but I'm defintely starting to get some better accuracy with it, and hopefully at some point I'll have a load worth shooting at 100 yds. I think I will be adding an aperture sight, as I already have other scoped rifles and want to stay more traditional with this one.

[ShrinkMD]

New data. I changed the press over to 44 magnum again, so I made up a new batch of 200 gr rnfp with Unique (0.430, I bought the slugs but haven't slugged the bore yet. Still on my list to get to)
I chronographed 4 loads. Interestingly, the third one with the lower ES and SD also shot noticeably better at 50. It was windy so I gave up at 100, and the scope can't elevate enough to fix the drop (a separate problem I am working on) I guess I need to load up more of that 10.5 gr load, and slug the barrel.

The first 40 rounds I fired chewed a 2-3" hole in the target, but then the wind picked up. I wonder if the barrel getting leaded a bit also started to affect accuracy?

Anyway, here is the data. 11x fired Starline Cases, Federal LP, 200 gr Dardas hard cast 0.430 RNFPBB bullets:
7.5 gr


High:
1093



Low:
999.1



E.S.:
93.9



Ave.:
1052.9



S.D.:
33.4



95%:
26.6




9.0 gr


High:
1303


Low:
1218


E.S.:
85


Ave.:
1265.8


S.D.:
27.7


95%:
22




10.5 gr


High:
1441


Low:
1405


E.S.:
36


Ave.:
1424.1


S.D.:
11.4


95%:
9.1




12 gr


High:
1631


Low:
1559


E.S.:
72


Ave.:
1590.6


S.D.:
20


95%:
15.9

[Scharfschuetze]

If that 10.5 grain load is repeatable for both accuracy and uniformity that looks to be your load with that boolit. Unique can be a little position sensitive, so just before you fire your next series of test, slightly flip the barrel up before each shot to position the powder back to the same place in the case each shot and that may reduce your extreme spread and Sd a bit more. If not shooting down hill, I'll do this in the field too if time and circumstance allow.

I enjoy shooting these leaver action rifles at longer ranges and as you suggest, a good aperture sight will be of help. Consider an adjustable sight like a Lyman Model 66, older Redfield or top of the line Williams. With such a sight you'll be able to shift from various ranges quickly as well as go back to your base zero easily. You already report your groups in MOA dimensions so you'll understand the MOA adjustments on the sight. With the rainbow trajectories of these lever guns, it's fun to estimate the range, slip the sight the number of MOA needed and then knock a small rock off of a hillside. You can also record your zeros for various ranges and then return to those setting and expect first round hits when returning to the target at that distance.

With a square topped blade or post front sight and rear aperture sight, you'll be able to get the most from your Marlin carbine.

[genesis]

Rather then shooting at 100 yards, start out at 25. If will be easier sighting with those buckhorn sights. If the gun, or the ammo, or you, can't get a pretty decent group at 25 yards, it'll never happen at 100 yards. Once you get a decent group at 25, move out to 50. And be sure to use a "really big" circle for your aiming point. A pie plate works good at 25 and 50 yards. But at 100 yards I use an 18 inch circle. To small a circle makes it to difficult to get a consistently good/proper sight picture. I love my 1894SS Marlin in 44 mag. I to like peep sights, but got use to the buckhorns. I generally get 3 to 5" groups at 100 yards with my cast boolit loads (very mild to medium velocity - nothing "hot").