1911, Kimber vs Baer, Pros and cons?

[Changeling]

Saying this is easy is "Unbelievable", so if those people that or really tuned in to these two pistols have time I would really appreciate a "1 vs the other" conversation, this is because of a lack of knowledge between the 2 and trying to figure the correct way to go!.

[2 dogs]

Well, I have both and the Baer is by far the better pistol. In every detail and way possible.

[Walt]

While we are talking about two 1911's here this is an apples and oranges discussion. The non Custom Shop Kimbers are pretty much assembly line guns. All Baers by contrast have much hand fitting of parts. As I understand it, some 20 hours worth. I'm amazed at what one can buy a Premier II for knowing that. IMO Baer pistols are a best buy in the so called semi-custom class of 1911's.

[Shooter6br]

Happy with my Target II but i dont have anything to compare with

[HollowPoint]

I've always wanted to own a Les Baer 1911 but I could never justify the high cost.

I know the quality is absolutely top notch on all of Les Baer's products but out of necessity I went with the Kimber. It was the best I could afford at the time I bought it.

Now days I'm pretty sure if I sold off a few of my dust collector guns I could scrounge up the money to buy one of Les Baer's less expensive models.

I've had such good luck with the old Kimber Classic Custom I bought back when they first started selling them in the five-hundred dollar range that I just never seen the need to upgrade.

Basic Black; with basically the same standard bells and whistles pictured in Shooter6br's post. It's turned out to be one of the best hand guns I've ever owned.

I've since purchased a 22 conversion kit for it and that too shoots like gang busters.

HollowPoint

[imsoooted]

my kimber eclipse target II can shoot way better than i can.....1 1/2" groups at 25yds offhand with 200g swc.... what more do you need, and at half the price of a baer....just my opinion

[Lloyd Smale]

Fermin your going to have to call me someday and explain why your 2000 dollar baer is so superior to my 1000 dollar gold match kimber. It shoots groups under an inch at 25 yards and is dead reliable. Its smooth tight and has beautiful bluing. While your at it explain why its so much better then my cdp which other then bluing is just as good of a gun. Ive allways said the the kimber cdp is one of the best ccw guns on the market at ANY price. If a guy bought a baer or wilson or ed brown with all the features the cdp has youd pay 2 to 3 times as much and i just dont see where that money is spent well. I know your a cop and feel you have a differnt standard then a civlian for what you carry but that cdp has had many thousand rounds through it completely trouble free and the only malfuntions have been caused my loading mistakes ive made myself. The only parts that have been replaced are springs. It shoots as accurately as my gold match or my colt gold cup to boot. This cdp is the officers grip frame with a commander lenght slide. I also had a 3 inch officers cdp and to be honest it was just as good. Where do you find them lacking? For twice the price it better jump out and bite you. Ive got nothing against those high dollar 1911s. Ive shot them and there very nice guns. Personaly though I have a problem with paying a grand to have a name on the side of a gun. I can take a bowen gun or a linebaugh gun and show you just where my money was spent. You know that as well as i do. But looking at this comparison i just dont see it. Both guns are hand assembled as the cdp and the gold match are made in the custom shop. Maybe the baer uses a part or two that are a bit higher quality but were talking a hundred bucks or so in cost not double the price.
Well, I have both and the Baer is by far the better pistol. In every detail and way possible.

[ole 5 hole group]

Lloyd, if Master Guns was unable to convince you that the 45 Colt is superior to a 44 Magnum, I doubt 2 dogs will be able to convince you of the merits of the Baer pistol. With that bit of humor, all I can say is if you can purchase a 1911 platform that shoots well under an inch at 25 yards consistently then you have an excellent pistol and IMHO you don’t have a need for a Baer.

I’ve been around a few 1911’s in my day and damn few where able to shoot that well out of the box except for the custom pistols and some of them even had trouble except with a specific load.

[felix]

Brand name makes no difference. The person putting the gun together makes all of the difference in the world. The Clark and Dinan guns would shoot clover leafs at 50 feet with a specified load furnished by our shooting club in Hartford, CT. This is because these guys did the work and at that time I do not think others were employed. Our specific club, the Bears, shot at the Colt indoor range as did a few other teams. Our smithy worked for Colt, and was the "maintainer" of the target guns sent back from these "extreme fitters". ... felix

[2 dogs]

Lloyd, I love ya to death, and youre certainly one of the best folks I know but if you dont have the same number of rounds through a Les Baer, how can you make this comparison? Further, I didnt say it was "so superior" I just said it was better in every way. The original question was not one of cost, so what does that have to do with anything? The Baer has no MIM parts, the Kimber is full of them. This includes the silly firing pin safety parts. The Baer will shoot one inch groups or better as well, and it will do it far after the Kimber has shot itself loose. I would further say that the cost of the parts difference is quite a bit more than what you mentioned.

The original poster asked a simple question. You may have shot many thousands of rounds out of your guns but I submit that I have shot many HUNDREDS of thousands of rounds through many hand fit and stock 1911s. The Baer is better. Period. Quality costs. Get over it. The Kimber is built to a price point and is a very good buy. But it aint no hard fit Les Baer.

[Lloyd Smale]

ya you can scream till your blue in the face and never convince me the 45 colt is a dammed bit better then a 44 mag. You might get me to admit a baer may be a better gun then a kimber but like i said it aint twice as good. My old gold match has no firing pin safety and no nim parts. My cdp may. It may not have the 50k plus rounds the gold match has but its go well over 10k and nothings broke yet and how many people that depend on a gun for there life take that gun out and shoot a 100k out of it anyway. Seems like a guy would be just asking for failure. I know for a fact that if you took our intire sherrifs dept, the state police post and the city police post and combined all those troupers they have shot 50k between them all in there lifetime. Id say most people that use a gun for a living dont even give it the amount of test rounds i do before its carried. I demand a auto pistol shoot a 1000 rounds without a cleaning or any malfuntions or parts breakage of any kind. I have to believe that if a gun will pass that that there aint much of a chance in hell that it is going to choke when you need it. Fermin i respect your opinions on guns probably more then anyone on this forum but ill put my old gold match up against your baer anyday for accuracy, reliablity and any other test you want to make. Ill throw my old gold cup into the mix too if you will except 1.5 inch groups at 25 yards and im talking 10 shot groups with no excuses of flyers. the kimber will do a bit better. I may not have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds through custom 1911s but i sure have through the 1911s ive owned. Believe me ive had some **** guns too. You couldnt sell me another springfield and i dont know if a newer gold match would shoot and hold up as well as mine has. but ill say this. Ive got 4 kimbers right now and have had a few more and NOT ONCE have i had a mim part fail and you know as well as i do how much old al shoots and he will tell you the same thing. Only 1911 parts ive personaly seen fail on any of my guns were old extractors that should have been replaced way before i broke them and one slide stop on a colt. Buy a baer if thats what you want. You know me fermin i sure dont balk at spending big money for a gun occasionaly. But me personaly ive never seen the need to spend much over a grand on an 1911 or an ar. they dont have to look cool just go bang every time. to me there more like one of the hammers in the tool box.
Lloyd, if Master Guns was unable to convince you that the 45 Colt is superior to a 44 Magnum, I doubt 2 dogs will be able to convince you of the merits of the Baer pistol. With that bit of humor, all I can say is if you can purchase a 1911 platform that shoots well under an inch at 25 yards consistently then you have an excellent pistol and IMHO you don’t have a need for a Baer.

I’ve been around a few 1911’s in my day and damn few where able to shoot that well out of the box except for the custom pistols and some of them even had trouble except with a specific load.

[Lloyd Smale]

fermin because your my friend and im allowed to pick on you ill ask you one more thing. If that fric*** baer is so good why the ### do you tote a glock at work!! ;)

[2 dogs]

Lets be careful we dont turn into trolls and get too far off the original posters question here.

Well done Lloyd. Very good response. Couple of pointers though.... Lets start with a news flash. That no firing pin safety Kimber Gold Match you got aint available any more. Kimber dont make em' like they used to, so that part of your argument just aint a valid point to the original poster here. Kimber only makes 1 model with no firing pin safety parts, the Warrior. The SIS didnt have one either but its been discontinued. So whats the point?

2nd, Ive broken slides, bushings, cracked frames, sheared lugs off barrels, shot the sights off the 1911s, and who knows what all. So, I know a good 1911 is a peach when you have one. Im glad you got yours. But Im not going to let a few bucks keep me in a Kimber when I can get a Baer.

Last, Im not trying to convince you of anything. I respect your opinion and KNOW you are simply stating facts.

Oh, and I tote a Glock cuz thats what my Chief say I gotta carry.

For the rest of you guys, me and Lloyd just go round and round...... Dont get upset, its just US! :-)

[Changeling]

2 dogs, nothing bothers me that I hear on this site from friends!

My reason for the posts is trying to find the truth witch I'm sure lies somewhere in every mans heart when it comes to the 1911 pistols. It seems you are a very aggressive bunch when challenged in this area among each other. I think this is a very healthy attitude and really believe those that replied are at the top of the heap in knowledge concerning the 1911!

What really makes the "Baer" such an accurate pistol?

I have read that "Baer" is so "Tight" that it takes over a thousand rounds to get it to run right!

I haven't heard anything about the Kimbers, except for here, but then again I know little/nothing about either one!
_____

Will both pistols devour almost anything or have either/both been round specific? Meaning would I be stuck with a 1 shot/weight cast bullet/powder round ?

I really appreciate all response because I have a need to know!

[Walt]

2 dogs, nothing bothers me that I hear on this site from friends!

My reason for the posts is trying to find the truth witch I'm sure lies somewhere in every mans heart when it comes to the 1911 pistols. It seems you are a very aggressive bunch when challenged in this area among each other. I think this is a very healthy attitude and really believe those that replied are at the top of the heap in knowledge concerning the 1911!

What really makes the "Baer" such an accurate pistol?

I have read that "Baer" is so "Tight" that it takes over a thousand rounds to get it to run right!

I haven't heard anything about the Kimbers, except for here, but then again I know little/nothing about either one!
_____

Will both pistols devour almost anything or have either/both been round specific? Meaning would I be stuck with a 1 shot/weight cast bullet/powder round ?

I really appreciate all response because I have a need to know!

The Baers are "hard fit" guns....they are tight! Usually at 1000 rounds or so they are "broken in" where the slide rides on the frame like it's on roller bearings. It will stay that way for a long, long time. Of the five new baer pistols I have worked with all have run 100% with anything I have put in them. I'll usually put 100 rounds of ball through them and start loading 200 LSWC's at about 800FPS. I have owned four Kimbers and my youngest daughter has one. Three of them have been dandy guns and two not so much. Between my two daughters and myself we have and love our six Baers.

[Walt]

Fermin your going to have to call me someday and explain why your 2000 dollar baer is so superior to my 1000 dollar gold match kimber.
Lloyd,
A new Gold Match is $1345 list, a new Premier II is $1790 list. $445 difference and worth every penny.
Walt

[ChuckS1]

I have a Baer wad gun and a Colt pre-70 National Match. Both are excellent pistols, but the Baer does give me a 1.5" group at 50 yards (off a rest with its preferred ammo; wish i could do that at matches ;) ).

I'd happily spend what I did on the Baer again for any other brand that delivers the same quality and accuracy out of the box. Most times I read about guys buying a less expensive gun and then sending it off to a gunsmith or the factory to make it "better" or, in Ruger's case, "right" (and, yes, I do own some Rugers, too). You get what you pay for. If you're happy with a pistol that shoots 3" groups at 25 yards, then you made the right choice. If you want a pistol that'll shoot into the X ring at 25 yards or 50 yards, then you just simply have to pay for the extra work that goes into that. Like Lloyd said, the pistol's a tool. Just gotta remember that you need to pick the right tool for the job at hand. I wouldn't use a tack hammer to drive a 10 penny nail, nor would I take an out-of-the-box Colt Govt Model to a Bullseye match and expect to win

[felix]

Lloyd, I would never take a target gun of any flavor to a gun fight! Tolerances are way too close. ... felix

[2 dogs]

Geez, where do I start here.

The Baer is "so accurate" because it has a properly fit barrel of excellent quality.
My PII ran "right" right out of the box. 1000 rounds to a 1911 is like scratching a mosquito bite with one finger and one pass. These guns are built to be shot and shot and shot.
Some guys send thier Baers to Harrison and other top 1911 smiths to be "improved".
If anyone else calls a 1911 a "tool" I'm going to scream. A Glock is a tool. A 1911 is a precision tool.
Wouldnt take a take a "target" gun to a fight? Felix you can trust your life as you may, but I would submit that a 1911 full of MIM parts better not break in the middle of the fight! Baers fighting guns are built to the same tolerances as his "target" guns. Right is right.

[Lloyd Smale]

lets see here now. Walt i never thought of the fact that the gold match cost much more then i paid for mine and fermin i do realize that my old gold match is a better gun then a new one. I know baers have a rep for being to tight but the few i shot were new and ran great. By the way when my kimber was new it was just as tight as baers ive handled. It didnt come with an accuracy gurantee but ill put it up against any 1911 ive ever shot. Felix i dont agree. I dont care if its a target 1911 or one built for combat either can be good guns and either can be bad guns. I dont go to a competitive shoot with a gun or load i think might jam either. Fermin i sure dont consider a 1911 a precision tool. Now a linebaugh gun or a bowen or harton gun might be that but there arent to many if any 1911s that qualify. It was designed as a tool and it still is that. Dont know how much truth there is to it but ive read that baer pinches down slides to get the tight fit there famous for. that dont seem like much precision to me. To me a well fit 1911 will run with a very light spring and a very light load right out of the box. Very few tight guns will. My kimber wouldnt until it had a couple thousand rounds through it. The only gun i had that really qualified in that respect was my sti trojan 9mm. that gun was tight but felt like the slide road on ball bearings. Thats another gun id put up against a baer that cost around a grand. I thought it was an even better gun then my kimber. It was just as accurate. As a matter of fact ive never found a more accurate 9mm gun of any kind and yes i owned a 952 smith which i wouldnt give a plugged nickle for another one. It was not only accurate but ran like a clock too. I shot ppc with it and when i got bored with that one of my buddys talked me out of it but if i was going to buy another 1911 today id be looking at a 45 trojan. Unless i got lucky theyve got to be the best bang for the buck 5 inch 1911 made. Fermin like i said im surely not here to bash baer guns. Ive got not one bad thing to say about them other then there to expensive. Bottom line is i wouldnt go out and spend 1400 on a new gold match kimber either. At least not while i could get a trojan for a grand.

[2 dogs]

There you go again Lloyd. All getting off topic and such. Who brought up Condoms? Trojans, really?

Seriously, while the original poster did not ask about the STI line of 1911, the base line 1911 they produce is by far the best buy in a 1911 today. I can agree with Lloyd there. But mostly, he just dont know bean dip from cow dip and should not be loose in the pasture with a bag of fritos. The new Smith E series looks very promising, but time will tell.

[felix]

2 dogs, remember that a cast boolit is a MIM part by definition. A fully swagged boolit is not. So, what would you take to a fight? ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

go play with your glock and eat a couple tacos there pedro! Matter of fact go play with something else too :) by the way im impressed. At least you seem to know one correct thing about 1911s! Now sell that baer and buy yourself two good stis!
There you go again Lloyd. All getting off topic and such. Who brought up Condoms? Trojans, really?

Seriously, while the original poster did not ask about the STI line of 1911, the base line 1911 they produce is by far the best buy in a 1911 today. I can agree with Lloyd there. But mostly, he just dont know bean dip from cow dip and should not be loose in the pasture with a bag of fritos. The new Smith E series looks very promising, but time will tell.

[MtGun44]

Cast boolit is NOT MIM.

The actual MIM process is very, very different than casting. Essentially no relationship.

In my experience, MIM parts are very high quanlity, no bad experience. Better consistency
than many other methods and more affordable. I put a 2 lb trigger job on my box stock
Kimber (with MIM sear and hammer) around 40K or more rounds ago and it is still 2 lbs,
no problems at all. IMO, that is a test that I can trust.

Bill

[felix]

True, Bill, the process is a little more extensive. MIM uses controlled pressure, and then heating the mold until the intended object's elements weld together. ... felix

[MtGun44]

MIM starts with extremely fine powder, mixed with a polymer binder and this mix is
injection molded, just exactly like molding polymer parts, but the molded part is designed
and manufactured a certain, very precise, degree oversized. After this, the molded
parts are heated in a vacuum to burn out the polymer and then consolidate the
metal into a solid. Some versions of the process use solvents to remove the polymer prior
to the consolidation heat cycle. The part shrinks a predictable and precise amount as the
polymer leaves and the metal consolidates.

I am always amazed at the folks that don't really know much about the process that
trash MIMed parts as low grade junk. My experience has been positive, and while
I don't like the very faint parting lines and ejector pin marks on S&W hammers
and triggers, a very experienced S&W gunsmith friend says that the current MIMed
parts are the best and most consistent internal parts S&W has ever made. In my
experience, modern S&W revolvers have a very consistent double action trigger pull,
unlike my experience with 1980s vintage S&Ws made the "good old way", where some
were nice and many were really bad.

As to the original question - My Kimber Custom Classic is a really realiable and reasonably
accurate 1911. HOWEVER - the Baer guns are EXTREMELY accurate pistols. Huge price
difference, tho. And I personally find Les' 'hard fit' to be pretty irritating. I have shot a
one of a friend's 2 Baer guns and just getting it to unlock to load it is a PITA. Would not own
a Baer gun because of this quirk, even though there is no question that it is a top grade
gun.

But - comparing apples to oranges, IMO. Or more correctly Cadillac to Chevys.

Bill

[wildcatter]

Well I will start by staying with the original question, I have had both, hands down the Les Baer is the best buy on the planet! I will say the kimber is an excellent gun. but after 20k or 50k rounds the Baer will be running and as accurate as it started life. I have an 1.5" P II, and I assure you it is 100% reliable, Ball, HP, cast, don't matter from day one even with two out of the 3 $13.00 cheap magazines, it runs and runs. The Kimbers I have used and owned run also. But there not Les Baers, I can't explain it but there is a solid feel the Baer has that no other 1911 I've ever had has. And price, where do you get double??? a low priced all blue kimber to an Ultimate Master combat, you might have a double price. But the Premier II Baers top seller, brand new I can buy for $1,525.00, and it suggested retails for $1,790.00, The Kimber G.M. II a fair comparable Kimber, retails for $1,3450.00. and can be had for around $1,200.00. These are what I can buy each for and I would give 5 hundred dollars more any day for a Baer over a Kimber, the fit and parts are worth that to most, any day, and the Baer will hold its used value better, so its a win win far as I can see!! And just this week I priced a new Custom Cary with night sights, checkered back strap stn. stl, single side safety, all options $1,600.00, the only comparable Kimber, a Tactical Pro II, blue not available in stainles and an aluminum frame not steel. $1,150.00, so I rest my case, check for your self and remember, resale goes to Baer hands down I think thats unanimous!

Now lets see there was a comment I seen about the 45 colt being better than the 44 mag. Well thats a no brainer I agree the 45 Colt wins that debate any day of the week and twice as good 7 days a week!:Fire::mrgreen:

[Lloyd Smale]

i guess i probably exagertated the 2 for one thing for fermin. Ill admit to that. As to the 44vs45 thing go back and look and it wasnt so much the which is more powerful thing it was the versitility thing that was in question. No doubt the colt has a bit more power at least on paper but ive shot and have withness shot at least 50 including deer pigs and bear with both and can tell you that you might find internet warriors that will tell you the 45 kills so much better anyone that has actually withnessed more then a few kills with each on simular animals will tell you (If there honest) that theres not spit differnce between the killing power of a 300 grain 44 bullet at 1200 fps and a 300 grain 45 bullet at 1200 fps. If you want to buy into the internet experts opinions that more then likely have never killed a single deer then ive got this bridge ;). Now im getting way off topic and tropper garza is going to spank me.
;)

[felix]

Bill, it would be great to get molded parts that have self lubricating attributes. One of these days..... ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

I saw ad somewhere for a coating or treatment that was for 1911s and it supposidly made lubrication no longer nessisary. One of these days im going to have to sacrifice one of my 1911 to them to see if it works.
Bill, it would be great to get molded parts that have self lubricating attributes. One of these days..... ... felix

[MtGun44]

If you have them hard chromed they will be much like self lubricating. Nickel plating works
similarly, but will not last as long.

Top quality surface polish and then a really good industrial hard chrome like Metalloy will
do amazing things to smoothness and durability.

I have a pair of Wilson 1911s in the LE Comp model with Metalloyed lowers, all internal
parts, too. After at least 70K through one and near that through the other, both are
so smooth and slick that they have to be felt to be believed. I think the parts will last
forever. One is .45 ACP and the other is .38 Super, Metalloyed lowers and parts and
blued slide and parts.

If you have ever shot a fully Metalloyed revolver, you'll be amazed.

Bill

[Changeling]

The Baers are "hard fit" guns....they are tight! Usually at 1000 rounds or so they are "broken in" where the slide rides on the frame like it's on roller bearings. It will stay that way for a long, long time. Of the five new baer pistols I have worked with all have run 100% with anything I have put in them. I'll usually put 100 rounds of ball through them and start loading 200 LSWC's at about 800FPS. I have owned four Kimbers and my youngest daughter has one. Three of them have been dandy guns and two not so much. Between my two daughters and myself we have and love our six Baers.


Walt, now tell me the truth, have any of the Baers (all 6) ever had any problems?
I figure if a pistol can stand the punishment of a Dad and a bunch of daughters there is not much to be said about there being able to take the punishment of mere mortals, LOL!

[Walt]

Walt, now tell me the truth, have any of the Baers (all 6) ever had any problems?
I figure if a pistol can stand the punishment of a Dad and a bunch of daughters there is not much to be said about there being able to take the punishment of mere mortals, LOL!

The first Concept III I ordered for my youngest daughter would not lock back on its empty magazine. This gun was purchased from Davidsons and they have a no BS 100% warranty on their guns. It was shipped back to them and a new one shipped my way....all on their dime. I had forgotten about that problem until you worded your question that way.:smile: