Another failure, this time with 45 acp

[walker77]

Well, for over the past year i have been fighting leading with 9mm ( which didnt shock me) and also leading with my 44 mag. I recently bought a full size kimber and thought i would give casting a try for it since everyone said that 45 is the easiest round to cast for. So i geared up for it and loaded up some rounds for it. I put about 150 rounds through it this weekend. Looking down the barrel, it didnt look that bad. But i recently bought one of those Outers Foul Out, lead remover systems. And i ended up getting a lot out of the barrel ( picture below ). Ive tried everything with the other two calibers. And with this one i am using a 225 grain bullet with 6.5 grains of unique. It shouldnt be leading. Im starting to suspect my mix. The lead is from my very first smelting. And back then i didnt know to look out for zinc. Could this be my issue

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww189/nwalker77/leadbarrel.jpg

This is the rod that collects the lead out of the barrel. The far left of the rod where its the heaviest is where the chamber is at. The oring towards the right is about where the barrel ended.

[gray wolf]

Did any bullets go down range ? it looks like they all stayed in the barrel.
I know pictures can be misleading but that looks bad.
I hope you can get some help for it. Hang it there folks here know the right questions to ask and I know they/we/me can be of help.
Here are some of the common questions.
Did you slug the barrel ?
What size are the bullets ?
How much crimp ?
Do you use the Lee Factory crimp die ?
Was your barrel clean of copper ?
Did you pull a dummy round to see if the bullet was squeezed down while loading ?
I am guessing fit for one thing, the heavy lead looks like it's closest to the chamber.

[walker77]

Its a new gun. Ive put less than 300 jacked rounds through it a couple weeks ago. I am using a hornady die set. I didnt put much of a crimp on it at all. I havent pulled a round yet to see if its been sized down. But that is a good question. I just got home tonight and my lyman m die was on the front porch. So if they were sized down, hopefully that will take care of the problem. I did slug the barrel. It came out to .451 I sized to .452 And they are water dropped. I do that mostly because i dont have a place to put them to cool. A bucket of water is easy. Like i said, i think i got zinc in there.

[243winxb]

Was accuracy the same at the end of 150 rounds, compared to the first groups fired? If accuracy stayed the same, you dont have leading.

[walker77]

Was accuracy the same at the end of 150 rounds, compared to the first groups fired? If accuracy stayed the same, you dont have leading.

How could you say i dont have leading after seeing that picture??? The lead is caked on there. I was shocked it didnt change my accuracy

[lwknight]

How does that lead collector rod work?
Are you sure that it is lead on the rod?

[buck1]

With that much lead I would have thought the boolits would be keyholeing.

[walker77]

Yeah, its lead, you can see the flakes. You put a plug in one end of the barrel and fill it with either their lead out or copper out. Then insert the rod. You put an alligator clip on the barrel some where and a black box with terminals slips over the rod. One does a positive charge and one does a negative charge. Its no different then how you nickle plate guns or anything else. Its just a reverse process. And a lot less voltage. If i remember right its like 5v ac and 450ma. So all the lead is attracted to the metal rod. Pretty slick and a whole lot easier than using choreboy. And it gets every single speck.

[walker77]

I just pulled a round apart, and the bullet still measures .452

[243winxb]

I was shocked it didnt change my accuracy Real leading will change accuracy.:smile:
And they are water dropped. Water dropping is the worst thing you can do to a 45acp bullet. Proper alloy, air cooled is much better. :Fire: http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_40shots.jpg (http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/?action=view&current=40shots.jpg) http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_IMG_4480.jpg (http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/?action=view&current=IMG_4480.jpg) http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_IMG_4494.jpg (http://s338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/?action=view&current=IMG_4494.jpg)

[garym1a2]

225 grain bullet with 6.5 grains of unique is a rather warm load for a starting load in 45acp

[SmuvBoGa]

Walker77,

Having BEEN zinked, I feel safe in saying that the butt end of the cast (flat) will have cavities, cressent voids, something you can SEE that is wrong. I've been zinked with .308 & .357. The rules may change with 45 cals. The zinkers shot ok, no leading but pea poor performance due to the voids in the base.
May work on the "fit" - also try pure lead. Change only one item at the time to KNOW what you are doing. Make notes, sounds like a Granny but it helps you KNOW what you did.

Keep trying, a little lead won't hurt - :bigsmyl2:

JohnMc

[walker77]

225 grain bullet with 6.5 grains of unique is a rather warm load for a starting load in 45acp

Um..... yeah it was....... :oops:

I already messed my hand up at work this week. This didnt help much. It kinda hurt

[williamwaco]

Nobody mentioned lube.

I find that the popular hard lubes are very poor at preventing leading in the .45 and 9mm.

If bullet diameter doesn't solve the problem, try either LLA or Beeswax/Alox lube depending on your lube method.

[walker77]

im using white label lube and the diameter is fine.

[Ozarklongshot]

Real leading will change accuracy.:smile: Water dropping is the worst thing you can do to a 45acp bullet. Proper alloy, air cooled is much better.


Just curious, based on???? Don't know much about rifles but I've been casting 45ACP for 35 years plus, I place well in most comps and run hundreds and hundreds of rounds without leading problems. Easily exceed 10k rounds a year. The ones I don't cast I pay someone else to cast, all chill dropped. I'm not saying air cooled is wrong. I'm saying that "water dropped is the worst" is a bit of an exaggeration. In my humble opinion after sizing lube is usually the culprit, as in very hard, very high temp is usually what I see causing the problem

[cbrick]

And they are water dropped.

Perhaps you have answered your own question.

Rick

[Doby45]

I would say that maybe the copper fouling from firing the 300+ rounds prior to your boolits could have helped with the lead sticking to the barrel. ANY solid lube you get from White Label would be more than sufficient to prevent leading in a 45ACP.


I find that the popular hard lubes are very poor at preventing leading in the .45 and 9mm.

Define popular as your statement is very vague and would almost imply that any lube other than the two options you mentioned are no good.

[BulletFactory]

Did you get ALL the copper out of the barrel before shooting cast? I have heard that copper will cause the lead to stick like crazy.

[Recluse]

I would say that maybe the copper fouling from firing the 300+ rounds prior to your boolits could have helped with the lead sticking to the barrel. ANY solid lube you get from White Label would be more than sufficient to prevent leading in a 45ACP.

Define popular as your statement is very vague and would almost imply that any lube other than the two options you mentioned are no good.

As soon as I read "300 jacketed rounds. . ." that was my first thought--did you get all the copper fouling out BEFORE you ran the lead down the barrel?

Any copper fouling in that barrel, and a new barrel at that, plus a hot load with hard boolits and that's a combination that is very friendly to leading.

First thing I'd do, which is also the easiest, is reduce your load. Reduce it down to barely plinker status. Scrub and clean your barrel, load up some mouse loads and go shoot. Then take a look at your barrel.

If you continue to get leading then, we go in another direction--maybe a closer look at your alloy.

Scrub the barrel and reduce your loads. See if that changes things. Then you can increase your load right up to the point to where it begins to hint at leading again.

:coffee:

[BulletFactory]

Doh! I didnt even read Dobys post until after I posted.

[btroj]

I bet all that leading got the copper out.

[Gohon]

and the diameter is fine

Slugged at .451, sized at .452 and the diameter is fine.......I wouldn't write that in stone just yet.

[44man]

I doubt it is the water cooled. We shoot everything that way and that includes thousands of ACP rounds, even many are in revolvers.
Rifling is rather shallow in those guns so I am thinking it is the hard start.
Sadly the smaller calibers have no room for slow powders and barrels are short so that limits powder speeds too.
The nine is worse and they seem to generate more leading problems then any other caliber.
My friends own the guns and since I don't have either it is hard for me to say what to do. I just know they have no leading problems beyond small amounts.
What to do if the rifling is being stripped? Recovered boolits can tell the story. This is something that needs to be known. Eliminate the guesswork.
Some say softer, even down to pure lead. It might work, shooting a putty plug. I can't say yes or no unless it is tried. The semi is not as touchy to lead alloys like the revolver although soft boolits can be damaged feeding or in the magazine. Too soft means less case tension and there is the danger of boolits being pushed into the case in the magazine or during feeding.
I hesitate to recommend anything that might do that.

[walker77]

You really think there could be copper build up?

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

[Char-Gar]

A couple of observations.

1. Most of your lead issues are coming from that water drop business. Bad idea..very bad idea. There is no need for bullets this hard in any handgun. Rock hard bullets create far more problems than they solve. I know others don't agree, before you tear my head off, read the disclaimer below and keep a sweet spirit bout it all. :-)

2. I have a cardboard box about one foot by one foot. The size really isn't important. I put a old folded bath towel in the box and drop the spru and bullets on the towel. When the towel gets pretty covered, I just lift up one end of the towel and roll the bullet to the end of the box. I continue until I can't find an empty place for the bullets. I then roll the bullets to one side and remove the towel. I place it on top of the bullets which are now in the bottom of the box and continue. Been doing this for many years with no problems. If you have room for a bucket of water, you have room to air cool them this way.

3. Any cast bullet will leave some lead and powder trash behind. It becomes a problem when it degrades accuracy.

4. Your contentment dong all of this is very much determined by your expectations. Way to many folks on this board have expectations that are not realistic.

[walker77]

I got to thinking about it, and i think i may have forgot to add tin. How much would that mess me up?

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[Char-Gar]

Tin will improve the casting quality of the alloy in terms of getting well filled out bullets. If your alloy is casting well, there is no need to add tin. Not adding tin is no part of your problem.

[RobS]

Tin isn't a issue +1 as to Charger's comment. Many casters here shoot plain old WW boolits, no tin added, and have been doing it for years. My question is, do you have a chronograph? I personally look at load data as a reference and start at the bottom charges and use the chronograph to tell me where I'm at. Velocities give a sign of pressure. I use to shoot a lot of the Lee 230 TC boolit and with a bit shorter of a COAL and it being a bit heavier I only had to use 5.4 grains of Unique for 830 fps or so from my XD. The same load produced 790 fps from a Springfield 1911.

Using Unique will produce what you need at around 800-830 fps nicely with a 225 grain boolit. If you are wanting more then I would work with a slower powder. I believe your issues are coming from your charge. Every gun is different and 6.5 grains behind your boolit may be just fine in another gun, but not yours.

According to your measurements, boolit diameter is OK after pulling a dummy round and comparing it to your barrel slug. I assume you are using the same measuring tool? Boolit lube sounds good being White Label Lube although the CR doesn't flow as well with lower pressure rounds as their softer lubes i.e. BAC or 50/50 NRA.

My own experience, a bit of zink (if you have the issue) isn't going to give you issues loading for the 45 ACP.

[Char-Gar]

I have probably loaded and fired 1/4 million rounds of cast bullet through various 1911 pistols in 45 ACP with complete success. I have never used an alloy harder than ACWW and often softer.

Millions upon millions of factory/military rounds have been loaded with 230 grain FMJ bullets and 4.8 to 5 grains of Bullseye. Almost all of my shooting has been with that powder.

I have used Unique and if you look at various loadbooks you will find conflicting data with Unique. There is quite a spread in the max charges of Unique powder. I have used the 6.5 charge but found it way to hot for continued use in my pistols. If I were to load Unique again, I would do something along the line of RobS above.

50 years ago I had a spell of hot roding the 1911 pistol with Unique. I tore up a pretty good USGI 1911A1 doing that. That cured me of trying to turn that pistol and cartridge into something it is not.

If you want to drive a bigger nail, get a bigger hammer. The 44 Magnum was my bigger hammer.

[walker77]

7.5 was max load with unique in the lyman cast bullet book

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

[Char-Gar]

I tore up my pistol with less Unique than that.

[Wayne Smith]

Another issue - with what did you make your measurements? A micrometer is accurate and reliable and it is the only accurate and reliable measurement device for .001" or smaller measurements.

If you used a caliper you don't really know the measurements you are using or what you need. If this is the case it may help explain multiple failures with multiple guns in multiple calibers.

[Unclenick]

Agree on micrometer. You want an OD thimble micrometer with at least 0.0001" resolution (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=945643&PMAKA=600-0011), whether from a Vernier scale or a digital readout.

As to the Foul Out electrolytic bore cleaner, the build up of metal on it is, as described, a collection of flakes with much more volume than the original metal. The original lay much flatter and was not nearly the interference level suggested by the bulk on the rod. Nonetheless, after taking the lead out, I'd put in some of their Cop-out solution and see if any copper comes off.

Actual pressure and load tolerance is a bit tricky. .45 ACP sometimes tolerates more powder than you expect because the primer is unseating the bullet and increasing the starting burn space. Other times that does not happen and it can be touchy about seating depth and show a large pressure increase with just a few hundredths of an inch deeper seating.

Personally, unless I had a chronograph to help estimate pressures, I would treat Alliant's load recipe for 230 grain round nose as an upper limit. It is 5.8 grains of Unique with the bullet seated out to 1.270". If you are seating deeper, as I said, pressure can go up, so charge has to be reduced and worked back up. I would note, too, that Lyman's .45 ACP Unique loads changed between #46 and #49, both of which I have. I know Alliant altered the formulation some for cleaner burning at one point. I've not worked up anything new with it for awhile, having found slightly smaller doses of Hodgdon Universal will do most of the same things, but cleaner and with better metering.

I've shot a lot of lead bullets since starting to compete 35 years ago. These have ranged from swaged lead to very hard cast. I have got them all to go through one 1911 or another without problems if sizing was proper, but there is another trick I use: I found group sizes and leading were both reduced substantially if I prevented the bullet from swaging into the bore at an angle. This is an all too common problem as many .45 ACP chambers allow rounds to slip in far enough that they actually headspace on the extractor hook rather than the case mouth. This lays the bullet against the extractor hook side of the chamber during firing, which tends to shave that side of the bullet with the front corner of the chamber neck. That makes for poor accuracy and leading. But if the bullet design is shaped to allow it, seating the bullet out to headspace on bullet contact with the throat not only corrects that, but assures the bullet is properly aligned. You just have to make sure your bullet, seated this way, still fits into and feeds reliably from your magazine.

Below is an illustration showing a 1911 barrel used as a finished cartridge gauge. The third example from left shows how it looks with the round seated to headspace on the bullet. Obviously, your own barrel has to be your gauge for this, and not some recipe COL. Lead bullets are soft enough that I've never seen signs of a pressure problem from doing this, as you can see in rifles shooting jacketed bullets, but I don't normally run hot loads either. If I were using Unique, I'd probably start at 4.5 grains and work toward 5.5 or so, and be satisfied with that. If I needed higher power factor, I'd move over to Power Pistol.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33860&stc=1&d=1309904060

[AnthonyB]

Very interesting thread. My go-to load in the 45 ACP is a 230 grain bullet over 6.0 Unique, and I have fired many thousand of them.
Chargar, how much were you using in the loads that tore up your 1911?
Tony

[Iron Mike Golf]

I did not see what bullet design is being used. Does the bullet have enough lube? Is there evidence at the muzzle of lube making it all the way down the bore?

What is working for me:

Colt Mk IV Series 80, Stainless, bore not slugged
Lyman 452460
White Label BAC lube in both lube grooves
92-4-4 alloy, water dropped. 22-24 BHN. Drops at 205 gr., sized to .452
5.0 gr Bullseye
Fed #150

If I air cool (13-14 BHN) and lube only one groove, I get leading the entire length of the barrel. If I water drop and lube both grooves, I get none. I went 600 rounds, only pulling a dry bore-snake every 50 rds to clear powder residue, and had no lead pulled out by a lead remover patch with the water dropped and both grooves lubed.

What is your alloy? How hard is it when you shoot, taking into account age hardening?

[fredj338]

Did you get ALL the copper out of the barrel before shooting cast? I have heard that copper will cause the lead to stick like crazy.

This plus maybe the AC bullets are just a bit hard & allowing leading early near the chamber. I shoot air cooled ww or even 50/50 lead/ww @ 820fps, no appreciable leading. I agree, you 6.5gr load is running near 900fps, a bit warm for practice loads, but if you like the recoil, go for it.

[bruce381]

I do not know for me its not hard I have 2 1911's with KART barrels.
OAL 1.240 or so WW 231 @ 5.4 saeco 69 boolit 200gr SWC, H&G 68 clone non bevel base
AC WW sized to .452-.4525 barrel is .451 or so, Lars BAC lube shoot 200 or so per range sesion every week NO lead just a brush or too and looks like a mirror.

though I did have a lot of leading after even 50 rounds when I went to AA #2 powder all else the same. so maybe a new powder is in order

[Dannix]

Below is an illustration showing a 1911 barrel....
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33860&stc=1&d=1309904060
The link you posted is coming up as invalid for me.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33860&stc=1&d=1309904060


Very interesting thread. My go-to load in the 45 ACP is a 230 grain bullet over 6.0 Unique, and I have fired many thousand of them.
Chargar, how much were you using in the loads that tore up your 1911?
Tony
A clarification of OAL may be necessary as well. Charger, maybe your recoil spring was a bit old and anaemic? :coffee:

[243winxb]

I got to thinking about it, and i think i may have forgot to add tin. How much would that mess me up?

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk From Lyman
While antimony is used to harden the bullet, the mixture of tin is critical, for while antimony mixes with lead in its molten state, it will not remain mixed when it solidifies. If tin were not added, we would have pure antimony crystals surrounded by pure lead. A bullet of this type , while it feels hard , would certainly lead the bore and eliminate all potential for accuracy.. In a lead-tin-antimony mixture, the antimony crystals will be present just the same, but they will be imbedded in a lead-tin mixutre. As the bullet cools the tin will form around the antimony-lead keeping your bullets from leading the bore.

[walker77]

From Lyman

Thats for pure lead, not ww. Wheel weights already has some tin.

[44man]

Just maybe this tin thing has merit. I have no problems with straight WW's and just cleaned my .44 after a year, no leading, zero.
But I gathered all of my WW's long ago, some of my ingots are very old.
Today with all the stick on weights and other junk that are melted all together to make new weights, there might be both a lack of antimony and tin.
I notice a wide variation among many here when they check hardness. WW's are still the cheapest way to go but none of us knows what is in the alloy.
Leading is one of those cantankerous things with a million opinions.
I have shot all kinds of mixes with no leading but have always found harder or a better word--"tougher" always shoots better. I have come to water drop anything from 50-50 to an alloy that I add antimony and tin to WW metal. These actually shoot the smallest groups for me. Babore sent me some 50-50 test boolits and suggested oven hardening. It worked fine, zero leading and deadly on deer. His boolits are top notch.
Years of testing alloys has shown me that as the lead gets softer, I start to get a few fliers. Many times 3 in one hole at 50 yards but a few out. As I reach WD, WW's, fliers go away. Yet a 50-50 alloy leaves the bore clean. Air cooled and water dropped also leave the bores clean, just carbon.
Then someone sent me boolits with a special lube coating. I swear they were pure lead. Anyway I tested all loads from mild to wild and every one just packed my bore with lead. Too soft and a poor lube.
Will I ever tell anyone that lead too hard will lead a bore? No, not ever if the boolit fits. I will not tell anyone to use softer lead to expand a poor fitting boolit either and even if they fit, too soft will ruin them. If a boolit fits there is no reason to slump them.
What is left? Lead that is not really alloyed and boolits that try to go straight in twist.
If you want to shoot pure lead, use black powder for a mild start.
I like soft lead but have never been able to make it accurate with smokeless powder.
An example is the Minie' ball. Friends shot the muskets and could not keep the boolit on a 4' target at 50 yards. The Minie' was a loose fit and the base was to expand to fill the bore. I took their molds and lapped them so the Minie' was a tight thumb push in the bore. We were then able to clang a gong at 200 meters off hand.
Makes me think of a hollow base .38 mold! Dead soft, undersize, slammed with Bullseye. Roto Rooter inside AND OUTSIDE! :mrgreen:

[walker77]

Like i said, these ingots were from my very first smelting. I threw everything in, including all the stick on wheel weights. Do you think its my mix? Im starting to think it is.

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[BD]

My two cents:
Looking at the FO rod with the majority of the fouling removed from the chamber end I'd guess your new Kimber, which may have had some machining marks left in the grooves, combined with little or no throat, is removing lead from each of those .452 hard boolits as they are extruded through the sharp edged .451 diameter hole at the end of the chamber and then removing some more little strips at the sharp and abrupt start of the lands. Subsequent boolits are ironing this lead into the bore on the way through.

I'd use the copper solution and clean that barrel down to it's skivvies and have a close look at the condition of the throat, (if any), and the grooves. Then I would fire one single .452 hard cast boolit and pull the barrel for a look at whats been left behind. What you may see is the shards of a thin ring of lead similar to what a crimp die will shave off if not properly adjusted to seating depth. I've also seen un-throated Kimbers that will leave small strips of lead cut out of the boolit by the lands. If this is the case a throating reamer will sort you out in 30 seconds.

The other thing you may see is a streaking build up of lead in the bottoms of the grooves or against the sides of the lands. This is usually caused by tool marks left from rifling the barrel. A quick hand lapping or 2,000 rounds of jacketed bullets will typically clear this up.

The key to this test is one shot through a completely clean barrel. The dull lead is very easy to see against the shine of the steel. The more fouled the barrel becomes, the harder it is to see what's going on.

BD

[44man]

My friends and I have bought many new guns. Cast shoots from the first shot. Many have never seen a jacketed bullet. Barrels are much better then some think. They are not chiseled out by Spanish gnomes! I don't think any barrel made today needs a break in. It is the boolit, alloy and load at fault.

[BD]

Everyone's experience is a little different. I've probably messed around with 50 or 60 new 1911s for shooters starting into cast boolits in the last fifteen years since the action pistol sports got popular, (and everyone and their brother started producing 1911s). I'd estimate that about 50% of the new Kimbers I've seen since Clackamas had some degree of the issues I've described. The thing that saves most of the production guns is that new 1911 owners generally go through a couple thousand rounds of factory jacketed bullets before the economies of cast boolit shootin' lead them down this garden path. By that point the barrels are slicked up pretty well and the fronts of the lands are not so sharp.

In this respect I think the folks on this forum are more the exception than the rule. We seem to have a number of folks who are cast booliteers first and foremost, and just decided they'd like to try a 1911.

BD

[MtGun44]

BD may be onto the problem. Generally soft, big and well lubed will not lead in the 1911
platform in .45 ACP, if the bore is smooth.

Bill

[walker77]

BD may be onto the problem. Generally soft, big and well lubed will not lead in the 1911
platform in .45 ACP, if the bore is smooth.

Bill

Not soft. They were water dropped.

[462]

Not soft. They were water dropped.

A suggestion based solely on my experiences: Stop the water-quenching.

It's easy to do, doesn't cost anything (you mentioned adding tin, which is an extra expense), won't harm the gun, and you may be surprised by the result.

[walker77]

Ill try air cooled with my next batch. What about my alloy? How much will the stick on wheel weights mess me up?

[462]

No leading, in my .45 ACP Randall, with an air-cooled alloy of 50/50 stick-on/clip-on weights. The same alloy does not lead my .357 Blackhawk, even with full-house loads.

My experiences only.

[cbrick]

I've never seen the need for anything hard in a 45 1911. My Springfield 5" shoots straight stick-on WW with a little tin (HP's @ BHN 6) @ 800 fps with no leading.

Make the bullet properly fit the firearm it will be fired in, solves a lot of other problems such as too hard or too soft.

Rick

[Doby45]

Make the bullet properly fit the firearm it will be fired in, solves a lot of other problems such as too hard or too soft.

I could not agree more. I shoot all of my 45ACP water dropped and I have zero issues with leading. I don't water drop to harden I water drop just so I can process the boolits faster. To each their own, but I think more is being made of the water dropped boolits than need be.

[geargnasher]

I've never seen the need for anything hard in a 45 1911. My Springfield 5" shoots straight stick-on WW with a little tin (HP's @ BHN 6) @ 800 fps with no leading.

Make the bullet properly fit the firearm it will be fired in, solves a lot of other problems such as too hard or too soft.

Rick

Straight stickies or half clipies/half roofing jack lead with a pinch of tin (1% at most) have their accuracy point at 840 fps with Universal from a 4" barrel (203 grain boolit) with zero leading. Felix lube, about the consistency of NRA 50/50 lube.

Walker, I'll make you an offer you can't refuse. I'll send you 20 boolits sized and lubed with Felix lube to try. Your only instructions will be on powder limits, COAL for Kimber chambers, and to report pulled-boolit diameter measured with YOUR tools and report the size of before-and-after seating.

PM if interested, this will solve several problems at once.

Gear

[MtGun44]

I know that they were WD, just citing my experience. Soft, big and well lubed works
great in .45 ACP most of the time - if you are not doing this, think about changing.

Bill

[geargnasher]

I know that they were WD, just citing my experience. Soft, big and well lubed works
great in .45 ACP most of the time - if you are not doing this, think about changing.

Bill

I agree. While it IS possible in most cases to use really hard boolits in .45 ACP, I'd say that if a problem is being encountered while doing so, then use a softer boolit. I've found it's usually easier to get a reasonably malleable boolit to shoot well at .45 ACP pressures than either extreme.

Here's Richard Lee's theory on it, take it at face value: 5.0 grains of Unique with a 230 grain lead boolit generating 11,800 PSI chamber pressure, and according to his formula the boolit should be 9.2 bhn minimum. To me, and based on a little experience, that's pretty close. I'll also add that if your powder isn't making enough pressure to overcome the yield strength of the alloy, it really doesn't matter how MUCH harder the alloy is beyond that, it's hard enough.

The only problem I have with Lee's theory is that it doesn't tell the whole picture. Often, in the real world with real production guns and all the imperfections, you NEED the alloy to yield a bit under pressure to give the best results. Just because the alloy strength is exceeded doesn't mean that the load will fall apart in all cases. As long as it obturates the bore, by whatever means necessary, usually it won't lead.

Gear

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's my .02 on this subject.

I have recently changed from 5.0 of Bullseye to 5.0 of W231/HP38 just because Bullseye made my gun very dirty very fast, and I'm almost out of BE. As Chargar said earlier 4.8-5.0 Bullseye with the 230 gr RN bullet was the standard .45ACP load for a really long time. 5.0 of W231 or HP/38 duplicates that load and is much cleaner burning than Bullseye. I use 5.0 of 231 in my .40S&W for a Glock too. Don't have to change the powder measure setting on the SDB when switching calibers.

I think they were much less sophisticated in the 60's and 70's and 80's and the lead was probably WW or range lead. I have shot lots of cast from my Glock 21 SF with no leading at all. I personally think you were running too fast for your bullet fit or type. I doubt your bullet hardness had anything to do with it, although softer would be better for a 1911 at 750-850fps.

Leading is a direct result of gas escaping by the bullet and melting it's exterior. Bullet fit is key but if you drive it with too much pressure gas will still leak past. It's like getting the dart fit in a blow gun just right. The dart just flys better, although you probably won't experience leading in a blowgun unless you over pressurize and blow your fillings out with the dart.


I would bet as long as your bullets are Plain Based not beveled, sized .001-.002 over, and you ran a powder that was better suited to the cartridge your problems would go away.

I don't consider Unique a front line .45 ACP powder as there are too many better ones for that cartridge. Similarly Bullseye doesn't work very well in a .44 revolver but Unique does. Some powders just work better in some places than others, that's why there are so many different powders to choose from.

Also it should be noted that nothing that has been said on this thread is new or unusual. People have been successfully shooting cast boolits from .45's for a really really long time, like probably at least 70 years? I doubt that they worried that much about lead composition in 1923, you just loaded 5 gr of Bullseye and your new cast boolits and went shooting.

I remember watching a "County jail trustee" loading .45's at the Ventura Police Pistol Range in the 60's. He was using bullets cast from recycled range lead. Who knows what that was. They sold those reloads to the public for like $2 a box, nobody had problems.

If changing the powder and the charge doesn't fix it , You could always buy copper plated bullets from Xtreme and eliminate the problem all together.

I use those now because several of the indoor, and outdoor ranges I shoot at won't allow wide open lead bullets anymore. We have to be green here in CA. Idiots have told us so.

Randy

[fredj338]

I could not agree more. I shoot all of my 45ACP water dropped and I have zero issues with leading. I don't water drop to harden I water drop just so I can process the boolits faster. To each their own, but I think more is being made of the water dropped boolits than need be.
A lot will depend on what pwoder you are using & what pressure you are pushing them, the size of the bbl throat, etc. Water dropping can cause as many issues as it may solve in low pressure rounds like the 45acp. All mine run fine on ac ww or even soft 50/50 lead/ww alloy. I use WST almost exclusively in the 45acp anymore, but same for Unique or W231.

[243winxb]

Oven heat treated/water dropped and Dropping from the mould into water is not the same.

[geargnasher]

Oven heat treated/water dropped and Dropping from the mould into water is not the same.

True to an extent, but water-quenching straight from the mould can be done in a way that gets them as hard as an oven heat treat. Or less, it depends on what you want. The trick is the mould temperature and timing of the drop.

Gear

[geargnasher]

A lot will depend on what pwoder you are using & what pressure you are pushing them, the size of the bbl throat, etc. Water dropping can cause as many issues as it may solve in low pressure rounds like the 45acp. All mine run fine on ac ww or even soft 50/50 lead/ww alloy. I use WST almost exclusively in the 45acp anymore, but same for Unique or W231.

I keep saying it's all a balance. That's why there is no universal best boolit alloy. Or best lube. Or best powder. There are an almost infinite number of good combinations in balance, but hard alloy/fast powder rarely go well together. I have shot quite a few water-quenched boolits in my 1911s, but they were warm loads with HS6.

Gear

[MtGun44]

Relating to post #57 --

IME, 4.8 BE is NOT equivalent to 5.0 W231. It took 5.7 to 5.9 of W231 to equal 4.8 BE
for me and several friends using the H&G 68 200 gr SWC.

Back in the day the std loads were 4.8 BE or 5.7 of W231, but some had to go up to
5.0BE or 5.9 W231 for a good major power load - all with H&G 68s.

Bill

[Throwback]

A lot of posts on this one. And I scrolled through pretty fast - so if I missed these details, sorry!

Is the bullet bevel-based? This would make it more prone to leading, especially at higher velocities.

Secondly I have never used Unique in the .45 ACP and not had significant leading. With a bevel-based bullet it will be much worse. Switching to Titegroup, Blue Dot, or Accurate 5 pretty much eliminated the problem for me and might be a good option for you. I am not looking for top velocities so I use Titegroup for most of my pistols.

I rarely buy commercial bullets anymore. All of my molds are flat based. I also do not use Unique in handguns anymore except for an occasional experiment. It is an excellent powder in low-end loads in rifles however.

[462]

"Is the bullet bevel-based? This would make it more prone to leading, especially at higher velocities."

Hmmm...try to convince my .357 Blackhawk of that, after it's had a lead-free session with Lee 358-158 RF boolits and full-house load of W-296.

[MtGun44]

462 - same results with the same boolit. Not a big fan of BB designs, but mostly for
the mess in a non-Star lubrisizer. Seem to work OK for me.

Bill

[walker77]

The mold is a 225gr round nose rcbs

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mtgun44: Bill; I settled on 5.0 of 231 as it was good compromise between the .40 S&W and .45ACP load , I expect it is slightly slower than the BE load but for what I shoot 50 fps isn't going to make any difference.

I use mostly 230 gr RN plated bullets in my Glock 21SF now for ease of loading and 5 gr of 231 makes them go 25 yards easily . The difference between that load and the previous 5 gr BE load was unnoticable on the butt end of the gun. The main dif was the blowback dirt on the muzzle end of the gun with BE. It was filthy in a few shots.

I'm sure there was a small dif in velocity but like I said above, them paper plates don't know the difference.

The Glock doesn't care about a few fps, as long as the bullets are RN's it feeds everytime. It won't feed the SWC bullets reliably at all. I have 442 of them left from that experiment.

I must now buy a 1911 just to use them up.

Randy

[geargnasher]

I've never had a leading experience I could pin on BB boolits. They obturate the bore or they don't. BB or PB doesn't seem to matter.

Gear

[MtGun44]

No criticism of your choice of load, just that the comment that it was the same as the BE
load is not correct. Nothing at all wrong with it, just lower velocity. The only reason I know
this is that in IPSC you have to meet a power factor, so there is a real need to know what
the equivalent load is, pretty accurately, if you go changing powders. If you don't make the
cut, your score is dropped pretty drastically.

Bill

[RobS]

The Glock doesn't care about a few fps, as long as the bullets are RN's it feeds everytime. It won't feed the SWC bullets reliably at all. I have 442 of them left from that experiment.

I must now buy a 1911 just to use them up.
Randy

Yes, I love it!!!

[geargnasher]

See Gear's Rules #12:

#12. If one accumulates more than 1,000 rifle or 2500 pistol cases of a given caliber, it becomes immediately necessary to purchase a gun chambered in that caliber, along with dies, moulds, sizers, top punches, powder, primers, membership to a public shooting center with a long enough rifle range, ad nauseum.

Gear

[gray wolf]

I must now buy a 1911 just to use them up.
Get two while your at it, look at it this way, you will use double the gas when you go back for the second one.
CHEESE---- think economics