P-H P58 owners: mould question

[Rusty Parker]

Hi everyone,
I think I already know the answer to this question, but thought I'd also get some opinions here.

I'm trying to tweak the 100 yard accuracy with my Parker Hale 2-bander for NSSA, and so I'm thinking of moving to a heavier bullet. This would mean going from the Lyman 575213 minie (510 gr minie, which shoots pretty well in the gun already) to a heavier Parker Hale style Minie (560 gr). I'm hoping the extra mass in the PH style minie and a bit more powder will help tighten the groups a bit more at 100 yds.

I have been sitting on the Parker Hale mould that came with the gun (Birmingham gun, so the mould is 30 years old) and tried casting with it today for the first time. I haven't shot any of these rounds yet, but the minies out of this Parker Hale mould are only about .573 in diameter, whereas ordinarily I size the Lyman 575213 rounds to .576".

Is the Parker Hale minie going to be too undersized for what I want it to do? Should I just get the Lyman 575213PH mould and size to .576 for the tighter fit?

For what it's worth, the Parker Hale mould threw bullets today in the 547-550 grain range, whereas the Lyman 575213PH is listed as a 566 grain minie.

So even though I'm pretty sure I'm going to need the Lyman mould, I just wanted to see what folks here thought about the sizing issue before spending the cash.

thanks everyone,
Jim

ps. I also don't want to grind down the base plug on my 575213 mould, would rather keep that intact in case I want to go back to it later.

[JeffinNZ]

If you Minies are undersized at .573 I would suggest you consider paper patching them.

I was given a lil .40cal Minie mould for use in my Colerain barreled caplock. In 40-1 alloy the bullets throw at .396, way too small for the .400 bore. I patch them with 9lb 'onion skin' paper and they measure .403 and SHOOOOOOT like a house on fire.

I have seen the Lyman skirmish bullet (415gr?) with the wad cutting shoulder shoot remarkably well from a 2 band rifle.

[Rusty Parker]

unfortunately we can't patch the minies in competition, so that's out.

I did manage to get to the range tonight before dark and shot four groups of five at 100 yds (well, actually 96 yards since our frames got moved in a bit). Groups were okay, nothing to brag about, but I was shooting off cheap bags rather than my good rest. Started with 45 gr of 3F, groups were a tad high, might drop the powder a bit and move back to a portable bench at a genuine 100 yds. I'd say the groups averaged about 5" without much effort on my part.

what I'm hoping is that heavier minies will tighten the groups at 100 yds, especially given the relatively fast twist in the P58 rifling. other thoughts?

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Paper patching, or wads are not permitted in N-SSA shooting. Only the greased minie'. BvT

[59sharps]

TRY THE PH W/ 48GR 3FFFG. IF U CAN SHOT THE 576 573 WILL BE WAY TO SMALL YOU NEED TO BE BETWEEN .001 + .002 UNDER BORE DIA. i SHOT THE 3 BANNDER FOR A WHILE. IF YOU SWITCH TO THE HODGENS WAD CUTTER n-ssa MOLD YOU CAN DROP IT DOWN TO 42 OF 3FFFG.
MINE GROUPED WELL AT 100YRDS.

[Shooter]

Paper patching, or wads are not permitted in N-SSA shooting. Only the greased minie'. BvT

So a paper cartridge that covers the scraping grooves is not allowed?

[SmuvBoGa]

In NSSA paper is not allowed UNLESS it is totally consumed in the breech/barrel - the concern is grass fires down range AND embers in the breech causing "cook offs".

[Rusty Parker]

TRY THE PH W/ 48GR 3FFFG. IF U CAN SHOT THE 576 573 WILL BE WAY TO SMALL YOU NEED TO BE BETWEEN .001 + .002 UNDER BORE DIA. i SHOT THE 3 BANNDER FOR A WHILE. IF YOU SWITCH TO THE HODGENS WAD CUTTER n-ssa MOLD YOU CAN DROP IT DOWN TO 42 OF 3FFFG.
MINE GROUPED WELL AT 100YRDS.

hey C.W.,
this is Jim from the 4th Virg--I tried those Hodgens you gave me a year or so back, they didn't seem to do as well as the Lyman minies. I forget their size--maybe 410 grains or thereabouts? anyway, my 2-bander didn't seem to like them very much. I don't know if it's the 1:48 twist or what, but that's my suspicion. I think the PH 3-bander is 1:60 or 1:72 . . . nope, actually, just checked the NSSA boards, looks like the Parker Hale 3-bander is 1:78? pretty big difference there between the two guns from the looks of it. I only had that handful of Hodgens, so maybe I didn't give them enough of a chance. But that's a pretty light minie for the 2-bander.
Jim

[iron brigade]

i have two parker-hale molds as well as two parker-hale enfield rifles that i just aquired. one two band and a three band. these rifles are accurate, using 43 grs of 3fff goex they will shoot a little high, so hold at 6 o"clock and hold right on at 100 yards.
the molds:
mine are the same as yours, 560 gr but measure at 545-555 with 550 grs the most predominant. separate by weight for accuracy. with dia. measurment of .573 also. don't worry these rifles can really drive them. i lube with beeswax/crisco in the base as well as the grooves. have fun.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Actually I'm sure the consumable cartridges are NOT permitted in musket team or indivual competition.
Can't tell you about breech loading carbine competition. but then I don't think the combustible Sharps cartridges were made with the MINIE'. They fit the ringtail sharps carbine bullet.

BvT

[gnoahhh]

Were not all P-H's rifled with a gain twist? Starting out at 1-70-something, ending in 1-40-something?

[NickSS]

I have a PH musketoon that has the same twist as the 2 band (i.e. 1 in 48) and mine likes minni's sized to .577 for both the lyman 575213 and the Hodgens NSSA bullet both with 45 gr of FFFG shoots very well for me. The bullets are a real snug fit but I can get 10 rounds before I have ti wipe the bore out. They shoot into about 1.5 in at 50 yards and just under 3 inch at 100 yards. At 50 yards I have to hold my front sight at the bottom of the V notch and at 100 near the top both with a 6 o'clock hold.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

It was progressive DEPTH rifling, not gain twist, Heckuva difference. Shallower at breech cuz thats where the fouling was worst.

BvT

[PAT303]

I have been shooting a PH Musketoon for years and it shoots a 640grn Bugg minnie that is only .572 in dia as good as any other type,the minnie when not lubed slides easily down the bore but at 100 I can shoot in the 90's with it.My 577213 mold casts minnies at .577 but doesn't group any better,figure that out.My rifle also likes FFFg over any other grade. Pat

[gnoahhh]

It was progressive DEPTH rifling, not gain twist, Heckuva difference. Shallower at breech cuz thats where the fouling was worst.

BvT

Gotcha. I knew there was something "progressive" about it. That may explain why miniés with thin skirts perform better for me in that rifle.

My PH 2-bander loves either the traditional minié from Lyman or a traditional bullet cast from an old Rapine mold. I don't have the numbers in front of me- I'm at work. I shove the ones intended for the PH through a .573 sizing plate, and lube with beeswax and crisco, loaded by way of a paper cartridge from which powder is dumped and bullet shucked from the paper before going down the bore. 60gr. Goex FFFg is the charge.

[59sharps]

hey C.W.,
this is Jim from the 4th Virg--I tried those Hodgens you gave me a year or so back, they didn't seem to do as well as the Lyman minies. I forget their size--maybe 410 grains or thereabouts? anyway, my 2-bander didn't seem to like them very much. I don't know if it's the 1:48 twist or what, but that's my suspicion. I think the PH 3-bander is 1:60 or 1:72 . . . nope, actually, just checked the NSSA boards, looks like the Parker Hale 3-bander is 1:78? pretty big difference there between the two guns from the looks of it. I only had that handful of Hodgens, so maybe I didn't give them enough of a chance. But that's a pretty light minie for the 2-bander.
Jim

Could be! What size Did I give you do you remember? I don't. I know the 3 bander did like both mold my ph mold was a 578. Sorry I sold it i would have lent it to you for a while to see how it worked out. Did not think of the twist diffrance. I know guys use the hodgen in Zauvos don't know that twist either.
Are you going to the vets? I can not make glastonburry next weekend. can't do 3 weeks in a row. our shot is the weekend after the vets.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I had very good luck with my sargeants carbine and a 2-bander, both PH, with the RCBS-500-M. Sized the same diameter that fit each gun equally well. Great Luck.

My recipe was for a ROUND minie to be sized correctly, it woud slide smoothly and slowly, down a vertical, clean dry barrel to stop with a "thunk", air hissing out the nipple to the hit. This was about one and a half thousandths clearance best I could measure. I figured about a half thousandths bore diameter growth from a brand new gun or barrel, like a HOYT, as the first 200 rounds and cleaning sort of lapped it. I had no diameter growth after that and then changed to a bigger sizer and I bought and lapped ram type dies from Northeast Trader, Printer John for years to stay right as guns came and went.I suggest a chapstick consistency natural lube, even if you had to make seasonal changes , winter/summer. My last Hoyt barreled Potts & Hunt ran 880 FPS muzzle with such and 40 grains of FFFg Goex thrown by my old gray paint Lyman measure. First shot was always high but absolutely consistent and this load dropped 5 1/2 inches from POA @ 50 to the 100 yard targets.

BvT

[Rusty Parker]

I have been shooting a PH Musketoon for years and it shoots a 640grn Bugg minnie that is only .572 in dia as good as any other type,the minnie when not lubed slides easily down the bore but at 100 I can shoot in the 90's with it.My 577213 mold casts minnies at .577 but doesn't group any better,figure that out.My rifle also likes FFFg over any other grade. Pat

holy cow, that's a big minie! but maybe that goes to show that the mass of that lil' bugger (ha!) compensates for the .572 diameter--but who knows, as you say, figure that out.

what mold makes that 640 grainer?

[Rusty Parker]

Could be! What size Did I give you do you remember? I don't. I know the 3 bander did like both mold my ph mold was a 578. Sorry I sold it i would have lent it to you for a while to see how it worked out. Did not think of the twist diffrance. I know guys use the hodgen in Zauvos don't know that twist either.
Are you going to the vets? I can not make glastonburry next weekend. can't do 3 weeks in a row. our shot is the weekend after the vets.

the ones you gave me were sized to .576, they were a nice fit. But they didn't really improve things over the Lyman minies (although I could certainly save some lead! which right now, at $1.19/lb, is saying something).

Negative on Glastonbury--I may put in an appearance this weekend at Dansville NY, which is closer to home, but it looks like my next shoot won't be until your skirmish in Saratoga.

[iron brigade]

having found my minie's weighing 10 grains under, i tried a different way of casting. i held the mold right under the pour spout which i feel eliminates the air pockets inside with the bullets filling them completely. they now weigh 558-561 grs with most at 560. hope this helps.

[PAT303]

holy cow, that's a big minie! but maybe that goes to show that the mass of that lil' bugger (ha!) compensates for the .572 diameter--but who knows, as you say, figure that out.

what mold makes that 640 grainer?

It's from a now passed Australian black powder smith. Pat

[ResearchPress]

It was progressive DEPTH rifling, not gain twist, Heckuva difference. Shallower at breech cuz thats where the fouling was worst.

Nearly right...! :)

Actually the progressive depth rifling started deeper at the breech and diminished to the muzzle. For the P.53 this was .015in at the breech and .005 at the muzzle.

David

[Buckshot]

...............Gee, I'm a bit late to this thread. I have a P-H P58 2 band. It's a picky rifle. I've found it doesn't like any lube in the lube grooves. Instead it prefers it in the base cavity. Also, it doesn't do it's best with plain Crisco. I can get about 5 shots off using Crisco. After that you have to drive the Minie' down the barrel.

http://www.fototime.com/C5511BD688BA907/standard.jpg

Just a quick lube comparison. Shot at 50 yards. That Minie' weighs 530 grs.

http://www.fototime.com/C75E453AEFB1E35/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/6BF0D8313CD43F3/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/5EDDD5720D77CAF/standard.jpg

These 2 five shot groups were done at 50 yards using the modified Lyman 575611 @ 624 grains. Please forgive the Pyrodex try :-). I was GIVEN a pound of the stuff. Check out the charge weight and velocity differences! I'd loaded volumn for volumn with the Pyrodex and the velocity was very low. I kept increasing the volumn of Pyrodex used until it was close to that of the real BP.

http://www.fototime.com/69362B163644D0E/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/4FF484DA3FB3167/standard.jpg

LEFT PHOTO: Some recovered Challanger Minie' bullets. They were captured in a sand berm. I was checking for any gas cutting, plus I wanted to see what the engraving looked like. At the time (late 90's) my camera was an old 1 mpxl H-P that wasn't capable of closeups. There was no gas cutting, and they were very well engraved. RIGHT PHOTO: Closeup of the Challanger Minie'. The company is out of business. The mould looks suspiciously like a Raphine. Weight is 530 grs. I need to make a smaller core plug for a fatther skirt as I believe these would be good at 200 meters too. Look at that bearing surface! The bullet is tapered .580" at the base to .582" on the top band.

................Buckshot

[451 Pete]

Rusty,
Just read this post. You did not mention if you were using pure lead or something alloyed. Assuming pure lead you can bump up the size of your finished bullet by going to something like a Lyman #2 alloy. This should add a couple of thousanths to your finished diameter.

Just my thoughts ... Pete