Krag frustrations...

[MakeMineA10mm]

My father and I acquired a Krag rifle this last Winter from a fellow member of the site. (Absolutely wonderful meeting him and his wife, btw, just wish we'd had more time and warmer weather to shoot a few rounds...)

Anyway, had a busy last 6-7 months, but I did manage to get some brass and find the dies I'd bought from someone else here another time. Well, as sometimes happens, life has caught up with us. Dad has been diagnosed with stage 4 (advanced) pancreatic cancer. We've been working on the bucket list (pretty succesfully - we're lucky as this usually painful cancer has not been that bothersome with pain for him yet), and a main shooting request is that I take him out for some fun with his beloved Broomhandle Mauser. I'm also going to surprise him with some M-1 Carbine shooting (another favorite of his) & the Krag. Already had the carbine and broomhandle ammo covered, so today I went down to the reloading room with the Krag, and that's where it got tough.

I had a supply of Saeco 315s already GCed (but not lubed or sized), and I'd FL sized, primed, and neck-expanded the cases. I charged the cases with 16.0grs of 2400 and hand-lubed the boolits without sizing them. I put an unlubed & unsized boolit in the chamber and pressed against it with a pencil while inserting the cleaning rod from the muzzle. Marked the rod. Took the boolit out and put the bolt back in and closed it, shoved the rod down, and marked it again. Got a C.O.A.L. of 3.805". Went back to the loading bench, seated a bullet to that OAL and then locked down the seating die. Went back to the rifle, and got quite a lesson...

Inserted the round and tried to close the bolt. No go. About the rear 3/8" of the case could still be seen. Hmmmmm. Pulled the round out and inspected. Could see marks at the juncture of the ogive and side-body of the boolit. O.K. I need to go a little deeper, but how was I off 3/8" with my COAL measurement? Tried incrementally seating the bullet deeper, but go no where. Finally, with the bullet seated so deep, it looked like a 30-carbine nose sticking out the front of that long case, the bullet dropped down into the case into the powder charge... Uh oh...

Stupidly got mad and pulled the bullet, and, yes, you guessed it, left the GC down inside the powder chamber of the case... Looked the boolit over carefully and saw a distinct line that measured about .296-.270" around the nose of the boolit. Thought maybe I got a 6.5mm barrel? (Highly doubtful, as the member here whom I bought it from was shooting nice groups with 30-caliber boolits...) So, I dig out a piece of OO Buckshot, lube it, and drive it into the throat of the barrel. Drive it back out and measure. Averages around .315". Not bad. My boolits run about .314 at the base, so should be a perfect fit with not binding. Still very confused and getting worried about that .270" line around the nose...

Head-scratching time. Looked at the case, and now a lightbulb comes on, very dimly. There are some bright shiney longitudinal striations along the case neck where it was expanded. (I used a Lyman M-die to expand only the forward 2/3 of the neck, so there would be a "shelf" created by the tighter area of the neck, so boolits wouldn't get seated too deep/fall into the powder charge.) I took the empty case and threw it in the chamber. It stuck out that same 3/8". Closed the bolt and with a very minimal effort, was able to close the bolt all the way. OK, brass is "springy" and it probably had enough give to let me close the bolt, as long as there was no bullet in the way. Took the piece of brass back out and measured it. In the expanded area, it was running around .344". (Lightbulb!)

I've only been shooting rifle boolits recently (started last summer, still a noob), and I've been able to shoot both my '03 Springfields without sizing the Saeco 315s at all. Just pour 'em, GC 'em, and hand lube 'em, and they're ready to seat in the case. Never had chambering problems in those 30-06es. (For those who don't know, the Saeco 315 is a tapered boolit. At the base band, mine measures about .314" and the bands get decreasingly smaller as you move towards the nose of the boolit.) I've always been able to seat them out as long as I could (getting the OAL measurement as described above) and using the M-die to get the brass to accept the rather wide-bodied boolits. Not with this Krag...

I measured the base band, and again got the .314" I was expecting. Now measured across the non-crimped Hornady GC and got... .318"... (Ouch!). Now, I'm getting it. The seating die won't squeeze the neck walls like a size die will, so when I'm seating my .318" GC and .314" base-band boolit, there's not enough give so the brass can't spring down and go into the chamber. I've either got to neck-turn the brass or size the boolits down. Since I don't have a 30-cal mandrel for the neck turner, I didn't even bother doing the math to see if I could turn the brass down enough... I just decided to finally size these Saeco boolits and see what would happen.

Got out the box of sizer dies from my Lyman 450 to look for the rifle dies. (I've been using it all these years with just the pistol dies and just faintly remembered having the rifle dies.) Found a .309" die and rolled my eyes and said, "this is going to stink shooting .309" boolits down a .315" throat and probably a .311 to .312 bore (never drove that buckshot on through to see what the bore diameter was... OOPs). Then, I thought, well, let's look at all the dies... Got to digging and lord-have-mercy, there's a .311" H&I die! :)

Ran 25 boolits through the sizer and then seated one. Found that with this sizing stuff, I'm going to need a smaller M-die, as the boolits basically fell through the expanded area of the neck and "landed" on the shelf that's 2/3 of the way down the neck. Well, that's what I put it there for..... Ran the round through the seating die anyway, just to get them all to the same depth and to take the bell-mouth off the mouth of the case. Walked over to the Krag. Slid the cartridge into the chamber. Pushed the bolt to where it had stopped before, and then, with very little effort, got it to close all the way with basically no resistence!! Extracted just fine. Made four more rounds and tried them through the magazine and they feed slick as snot!

So, I'm quite happy I have functional ammunition, but now I'm a little dubious about their accuracy. I guess I'll find out in the next couple weeks whenever dad has a good-enough day to make it to the range. If anyone would care to speculate or give me some advice on a better work-around, I'm all ears. My only other thought would be to ream out the neck area so it would accept a loaded round with a fatter neck, but I'd want to do a chamber cast and do several throat and bore measurements before I go that drastic.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Oh, by the way, that worrisome .270" ring around the nose of the boolit -- I figured that out too. Seems the seating stem in the seater die is set up for spire-point jacketed bullets, so it has a fairly deep, pointed recess leaving a sharp .270" ridge around the end of the seating stem... Apparently all the seating deeper and checking for fit over and over (probably ran that first attempted round through the seater four or five times), caused enough bumping against that same spot to leave a distinctive/noticable mark... Had nothing to do with the rifle at all!

[Char-Gar]

The Krag is a very easy rifle to load for and cast bullets work very well. If you have not slugged the bore yet, do so as step 1. The groove diameters of these rifles are all over the map from .308 to .315 and larger. .309 to .310 are the most common diameters found. Therefore a bullet of .311 will most often do the trick, but slug the barrel to be certain.

Most Krag chamber throats will accept rounds loaded with bullets .313 but no larger. If you must go larger, then you will need to thin the case necks buy turning a few thousands.

The Krag rifles have very long throats. Simply seat your bullets as long as you can and have them still run slick through the magazine.

Because of the long throats, I like bullets in the 180 - 220 grain weight range.

2400 is a great powder, but please don't go over about 16 grains. These old Krag receivers most often are brittle and 2400 delivers a rapid blow to this old steel. If you want to go must past 1,800 fps or so, you would be better off with a mid range burning powder.

This really is a pretty simple project and from reading your post, it sounds far more complicated than it is. Folks have been loading cast bullet in Krag rifles for 110 plus years and there are no secrets, tricks or difficulties. I have four Krag rifles and enjoy them greatly with cast bullets.

Best wishes to you and your Dad.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks Chargar!

I have no interest in attempting to achieve high velocities... Just need enough that the twist, velocity, and boolit length all interact correctly enough for accuracy.

My Saeco 315s are pretty heavy. I made them from about 60/40 WW to lead with about 1% tin added. They weigh 191-192grs checked and lubed.

A lot of the complication is my long-windedness... :veryconfu The main purpose of my write-up is just kind of showing how something that seems simple on the surface can turn slightly difficult and give confusing clues (like that ring on the nose of the boolit that turned out to have nothing to do with my seating problem), but that it should not be given up on.

Several lessons in my experience/write-up, including:

1) Don't get in a hurry
2) Slug the throat and the bore before starting to load
3) Do things in proper order (I should have started with figuring out the bore, then made the boolits fit that, and then bell-mouthed/expanded the cases to fit the boolits, but I did the mouth-expanding first -- wrong...)
4) Always go back to the basics when getting confusing clues (What got me through this was ignoring the silly notion that the nose ring put in my head that the bore/chamber was constricted somehow - quick slugging of the throat dispelled that mis-leading thought.)

As I've continued reading, I noticed in a "Frankly speaking" article in the Lyman cast boolit handbook, that there is a principle that using a powder that is extra-slow burning (compared to typical "top-performance" powders w/ jacketed bullets in the cartridge), but that "uses up" all of it's pressure just as the boolit clears the muzzle is considered ideal by some. For example, in a 30" barrel Krag, one may want to use a load with say, 4831, so that the boolit gets kicked the softest at the beginning, and the powder's pressure peaks before the boolit gets to the muzzle. Anyone else liking this theory? Any suggestions for the Krag and my 190gr Saeco's along these lines? I've got RL-15, 3031, H322 on hand. Currently out of slow-burning powders...

[Dean D.]

I've always had great luck with IMR 3031 in my Krags. It's my go-to powder for the heavier boolits. YMMV

For a plinking round I have really good luck with the 311466 and 19.5gr of IMR 4227. It shoots better than I can.

[leadman]

I use 13grs of PB with 314299 sized .311" in my Krag. I would shoot what you have made up and it will probably be fine.
My Krag was so easy to get good loads for that I will not ever sell it. and it is an old Sporter conversion probably from the 30s'.

My only issue is when boolits contact the rifling they are too long for the magazine with 314299. Shooting from the bench most of the time so it doesn't really matter.
311291 works thru the magazine just fine so I can use those if I want.

Take your Dad out and have a good time. Lost my Dad and Mom just about 5 years ago.

[Char-Gar]

Leadman.. I used to worry about that long throat in the Krag. Like you I wanted the bullets to contact the rifling, but when so seated the round was to long for the magazine. That worried me quite a bit..until I started shooting the rifle.

The rifle shoot so darn well, I soon forgot about the long throat.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks guys! Can anyone share a pet load with 3031 and a 180-200gr boolit?

[94Doug]

Wasn't there an Ideal mould just made for the Krag, like the 311332, or 334?


Doug

[uscra112]

Yupper. Lyman manual says it was 311284.

Also 311334, which that same manual says was also for .30-06

[WILCO]

Can anyone share a pet load with 3031 and a 180-200gr boolit?

The new Lyman cast boolit book lists this cartridge load as performing best with the 30-40 Krag:

Bullet: Lyman # 311644 190 gr. (#2 alloy)
Powder: RX7 (Reloader 7)
Start grains:19.5 = 1522 fps.
Max grains: 28.5 =2062 fps
Over all length @ 2.925" BC: .272 SD: .286

Sorry to hear about your Dad. Stay strong and keep moving forward.

[Char-Gar]

Lots of folks have great luck with 3031, 4895 and the like in Krag rifles. I have played with it also quite a bit. I got some good results, but vary the charge a grain or two and things went to hell.

I have found faster powders like 2400, 4227 and 4759 to be much easier to work with in the Krag. I have also found untra slow WC872 to be the best for factory level loads and cast bullets. So I have quite the medium burning powders.

It is just too much work to get them to work for me.

[MakeMineA10mm]

There's a certain guy around here, who will remain nameless (but his initials are 94D [smilie=l: ), who is a prince of a guy. A friend to many, but I'm especially proud to say he's a friend of mine! Thanks Doug. I love random acts of kindness, and yours is much appreciated.

:2_high5:

[hoss4570]

If you have not slugged the bore yet, do so as step 1.

Pardon my ignorance,but I'm new here, I'm new (kinda) to reloading and casting AND I'm a new owner of a very old Krag 30.40 with serious bore problems.What are you talking about when you say "slugged the bore"??:Fire::Fire::2gunsfiring_v1::2gunsfiring_v1:

[nicholst55]

Pardon my ignorance,but I'm new here, I'm new (kinda) to reloading and casting AND I'm a new owner of a very old Krag 30.40 with serious bore problems.What are you talking about when you say "slugged the bore"??:Fire::Fire::2gunsfiring_v1::2gunsfiring_v1:

In a nutshell, you tap an oversized lead slug down the oiled bore of your rifle. When it comes out, you measure it with a micrometer or caliper to determine the size. Size your bullets .001-.002" over that diameter to insure a good gas seal. Run a search on that subject, and you'll have a few days reading.

[Char-Gar]

Hoss.. What Nichols said is spot on. I used to live in Odessa, my ex-wife still does. I don't have fond memories of that town. My daughter graduated from Perminan H.S. and calls the town slow-death-a.

[Wayne Smith]

What Nicholas said is spot on, Hoss, except ... If at all possible use a micrometer, not a caliper. Calipers simply are not accurate enough.

[madsenshooter]

And, if your barrel is so bad that it just won't shoot cast Hoss, the CMP sells new Criterion made rifle and carbine barrels for the Krag.

[hoss4570]

In a nutshell, you tap an oversized lead slug down the oiled bore of your rifle. When it comes out, you measure it with a micrometer or caliper to determine the size. Size your bullets .001-.002" over that diameter to insure a good gas seal. Run a search on that subject, and you'll have a few days reading.

Thank you, I will give it a try,:guntootsmiley::guntootsmiley:

[hoss4570]

Hoss.. What Nichols said is spot on. I used to live in Odessa, my ex-wife still does. I don't have fond memories of that town. My daughter graduated from Perminan H.S. and calls the town slow-death-a.

Thanks.Ah,Odessa ain't so bad. I was born here but have lived pert near all over Texas, Wyoming, Colorado and Montana. Even did a stint in Calif :shock::shock: but I came home and I reckon "somewhere between the Red and the Rio Grande is where theyll plant me......:guntootsmiley::guntootsmiley:

[hoss4570]

And, if your barrel is so bad that it just won't shoot cast Hoss, the CMP sells new Criterion made rifle and carbine barrels for the Krag.

Thanks. I bought my first Garand from CMP, I'll give em a look.:guntootsmiley::guntootsmiley: