revolver accuracy

[dualsport]

OK, I read the stickies. Some good info there. But I'm trying to get an idea of what's a reasonable expectation from a common S&W M19 6". Reports of fantastic shooting are plentiful, but what about run of the mill guns? Is about 2 1/2" 10 shot groups at 25 yds. from sand bags good?

[Jim]

That depends on opinion. Are you happy with it?

[44MAG#1]

Why do I feel this is not going to turn out well?

[NickSS]

It depends upon you and your level of accuracy with other guns. I have shot several different model 19s and groups of between 2 and 3 inches at 25 yards is OK for me but I an not the worlds best pistol shot. I would be happy with that size group but someone else who is a much better shot and with better eyes would think differently. So it's all in the eye of the beholder.

[Dale53]

From a Ransom Rest, I have shot a number of Model 19's that would group well under an inch at 25 yards. I have also shot groups like that, handheld, from a rest. The Ransom Rest is generally more consistent...

All of this pre-supposes an experienced shooter and good ammo.

FWIW
Dale53

[jh45gun]

A 2.5 group at 25 yards is gonna kill anything you are shooting at. sounds good enough for me.

[dualsport]

So I'm in the ballpark! I've seen some of Dale53's targets, I figure if I can get to half as good I'm shooting well. My goal will be repeatable 2" 10 shots at 25. Hard to say at this point if it's the gear or the operator but I've won a couple minor competitions in my life, not a complete newbie. My philosophy used to be "Dead's dead". Now I'm facing a little bitty x-ring. Thanks for the input guys, it gives me an idea at least what a plain jane M19 can do in the right hands. While researching target loads for the .357 I noticed there is almost no talk about OAL or how best to determine it. Strange, that's a big topic with rifles.

[jh45gun]

I suspect what the load books say is a start on OAL. As long as they fit in the cylinder and do not stick out the end of it that should be good.

[subsonic]

Oal is determined by where the crimp groove is located. You need enough boolit in the case to have enough neck tension to not pull boolits from recoil and enough neck tension to get the powder burning before the boolit moves. The powder burning speed and power level of the load can dictate this. In general, slower powders have worked better for me as well as standard primers. YMMV.

A well built revolver with a good load can amaze you. I have fired under 2" @25yds with pretty mediocre guns and loads. Better is possible with more work.

[44man]

OAL means nothing at all if the boolit does not stick out the front.
The .357 can be hard to make accurate. I seem to find things easier as the caliber gets larger. I have always suspected the brass. A 6" S&W should do 1/2" to 1" at 50 yards. It is a hard road for sure with a .357. They are also grip sensitive so any change in hold will throw shots.
Years ago I had a model 27 that I shot the 358156 HP with 2400 out of. I was able to hit 1-1/2" targets at 100 yards from prone with a scope. I have never been able to match that again with a .357.
I have not owned a .357 for a long, long time but I shoot friend's guns. We can get under 1" at 25 easy.
The alloy, the dies and loading procedures should be looked at. The gun should do it. Even the primer used can change things big time.

[cajun shooter]

Dualsport, You did not include what you are trying to wring out of the 19. I carried many a K frame S&W as a police officer and private citizen. I have had to use it to protect myself and others. It is a excellent gun if used with in the realm of what it was built for. It is not the best choice if you intend to fire maximum loads out of it every time it is fired. For that, you need to move up to a N frame gun. The N frame is built with the extra meat to handle the stress of a steady diet of max loads. I am not speaking from something I read. I have been to S&W schools about 5 times and to the factory where you build guns fresh from the foundry. There was rumors many years ago that Colts were hand fitted but S&W were not. That is a lie as all internal parts on a S&W are hand fitted. The 19 was a police favorite for many years as they were light to carry and with the correct ammo and person on the trigger, very accurate. Most 6 inch S&W revolvers are more accurate than the shooter. Put it in a Ransom Rest and see what I'm saying.

[HammerMTB]

Gotta tell a M19 story. Had an impromtu range set up where we plinked lots of stuff. I had my M19 snubbie. There was an old buzz saw blade set up hanging from a tree branch by baling wire at 50 yards. The usual plinking was shootone side, get it to spin, and shoot the other side to stop it/turn it. Timing AND accuracy. It was at least a 12" blade, so pretty easy to hit.
So I said, wonder if I can hit the wire and knock it down? And took a pop at it from 50, offhand. First shot, down it came. Then I hadda go over to see if the wire had really been cut by the shot. sure enough, it was flattened by the boolit where it parted.
Bet I couldn't do that 3 times in a row!
The M19 is plenty accurate to do what you asked of it. The rest is shooter and load.

[357shooter]

While researching target loads for the .357 I noticed there is almost no talk about OAL or how best to determine it. Strange, that's a big topic with rifles.I've found SWC's to be the most accurate, and they like a longer OAL. Which also means 357 brass makes a difference.

A Lee TL358-158-SWC seems to shoot weel from a Taurus 66 at OAL of 1.600, minimum. The cylinder throats and taper, and bullet diameter and design all come into play when determining OAL.

I admit to not testing this bullet out to 1.620, but will be in the next couple of weeks.

10 shot groups make it tough to tell how much is the gun/bullet/load vs the shooter. Even from sand bags. I typically shoot 4-5 groups of 5 when comparing handloads for accuracy. That doesn't mean it's the only or best approach, but I've found it to work well.

For magnum loads, a 358-429 is one of the best designs that I've found.

[ColColt]

There are so many variables when it comes to shooting small groups and one of the most important is trigger control and eyesight. I recently purchased a Lyman Hawkeye and it made a huge difference in my grouping. I'd go as far to say it cut groups nearly 1/2 the size they were before. It's great to be able to see the front and rear sights clearly and the bullseye as well. If you can't hit with one of those it's your loads or you're flinching. I wish I could see like that without the Hawkeye but age is like a hyperbolic curve peaking at maybe mid 20's and then it's downhill slowly from there.

[dualsport]

Trigger control and eyesight. Yep. It's possible I have a gun and load combo already that will go 1" at 25 but I may never see it! Have to admit the sight picture involves a little guesswork. Experimenting with different techniques, so far peaking over my glasses gives me the clearest front sight. I know the blur behind it is the bullseye, shoot for the middle. I guess if OAL was a big deal with revolvers like it is with rifles there'd be reams already written about it. By the way, my M19 gets babied, the old Ruger takes the beatings. It's a shooter but too slow to reload for PPC.

[bobthenailer]

years ago i did most of my accuracy testing with a ransom rest. since the advent of alot of sighting mounting options on handguns i now use a red dot or a scope for most of my accuracy testing . never iron sights if possible! just got to many different guns and those grip inserts are expensive @ $56.00 each as they are brand & model specfic. i only have 3 inserts 1911 , S&W N frame and Hi Std mil grip 22.

[Char-Gar]

OK, I read the stickies. Some good info there. But I'm trying to get an idea of what's a reasonable expectation from a common S&W M19 6". Reports of fantastic shooting are plentiful, but what about run of the mill guns? Is about 2 1/2" 10 shot groups at 25 yds. from sand bags good?

Yes..that is a good and reasonable expectation.

[EDK]

Group size is a function of operator skill, quality of trigger, sights and ammunition...in addition to quality of the firearm. 357s are notorious for senitivity to grip changes.

Since I shoot VAQUEROS/BISLEY VAQUEROS with factory sights, a two inch group at 25 yards is very pleasing to me. The guns have good triggers; ammo is good; but operator skill and sights leave something to be desired.

Go for your personal best....and never be satisfied with what you achieved today; you can continue to improve.

[PacMan]

Dont know what size bullseye you are shooting but aiming for center may not give the best results. I am far and away from being a good shot with any handgun.My 60 year old eyes do not help. I have found that a small target that i can just see as a blur and aiming at the bottom helps. If you are aiming for the center of a rather large bulls eye i think that you have built in some spread on your group.

[dualsport]

I should have given some background. I decided on a whim to enter a ppc competition being held at Lincoln Rifle Club in Lincoln, Ca. It's being billed as "FBI modified". I don't know squat about PPC before this but the targets are NRA B6(P) with an 8" black that is the 8 ring. So 2 1/2" groups should easily be 10s and 9s. The catch is some of it is left hand and we shoot from 10, 15, 25, and 50 yds. I decided to sight in dead on for 50(which is shot from a rest, the others are all standing), then I'm about 1 1/2" high at 25 so will aim a little low there. This is what put me on the accuracy quest. Next I will try some .357 brass and a few different swcs and the Hornady HBWC. Probably about the time I peak out the matches will be over for this year, and I can get back to my rifles. Thanks again for all the input and help, I appreciate it. My wife isn't interested so you guys get my 'thinking outloud" stuff. By the way, for those of you who, like me, don't or didn't know squat about PPC, it's basically bullseye shooting under a time limit at different distances using alternate hands.

[Lloyd Smale]

Heres my thought on that. I shoot ppc. At least i did up till last year. If im shooting at a 2 inch 10 ring i want a gun that shoots at least an inch. If your shooting at a 2 inch target with a 2 1/2 load you could do everthing perfectly and still miss. Even with a one inch gun having your sights in the black still doesnt guarantee a 10. You also cant rely on sighting in say an 1 1/2 high at one range and holding dead on everywhere. Not if you want to win. You need to know exactly where the center of your point of aim is at every range your shooting and learn to hold your sights on the target to put them in the center of the black. thats why dedicated ppc guns have 3 and 4 postion sights. You made a good point when you said that ppc and bullseye shooting are very much alike and both need the absoulte best accurcy you can muster to win. If you want to shoot a 250 its no big deal but you will never shoot a high 290 with a 2 1/2 inch load. Save those for shooting plates or something else that doesnt require much accuracy. You dont know how many guys shooting ppc grab a gun and buy some factory ammo or get some handloads from there buddy and go shoot ppc and never win. Some even practice and still never get there. Ive seen a couple of them even doubt there skill. I took two guys that were freinds and took them from high 270 low 280 shooters to low to mid. 290 shooters just by working up loads for there guns that shot inch groups. That not only cut down the marginal misses but gave them so much more confidence that between them they won every match this year in the area. Thing is they had the skill to beat me before but just didnt have the accuracy in there load. Funny thing is theyve made me swear not to give this advice to anyone else in our little circut.

[subsonic]

If you're shooting fast and heating up the gun, you might try gas checked to avoid leading.

I'd probably try a round nose or LFN with a gas check in the 160gr area.

[44man]

Lloyd has explained perfectly why I do not ever accept poor groups. Now days I only hunt but never, ever will you make a poor load shoot by practice. The gun must always shoot better then you can. You can't even learn to shoot if the gun throws shots.
When you reach the point where every boolit goes to the sights, only then will YOU improve.

[357shooter]

Lloyd has explained perfectly why I do not ever accept poor groups. Now days I only hunt but never, ever will you make a poor load shoot by practice. The gun must always shoot better then you can. You can't even learn to shoot if the gun throws shots.
When you reach the point where every boolit goes to the sights, only then will YOU improve.44man and Lloyd are right on the money.

I don't understand it when, in the context of discussing the accuracy of a load, a handloader says "it's more accurate than I am". Meaning, that the fair load is good enough, a better load won't be more accurate off-hand.

They don't know, because you can't shoot a fair load to be a great load. It limits their groups unless it shoots to the sights, all the time.

Load and shoot medicore loads while finding great loads. Then shoot great loads all the time.

Whew, I feel better now. Thanks guys. :Fire::Fire::Fire::Fire:

[frank505]

A Model 19 four inch was my duty/issued revolver. We were issued the Winchester 158 grain Hollow Point lead semiwadcutter. Our practice ammo was reloaded 148 wadcutter. Boy o boy did I shoot!!!!!!!!!!! I shot a modified bullseye match every other month, the other month was a modified ppc. Sure was easy to keep shooting tens and x's with that superb sixgun.

[ColColt]

You fellers with 60+ year old eyes need to try one of these. I can see it all now-front, rear sight and bullseye...a miracle I tell you. It sure worked for me.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/sights/hawkeye.php

[sffar]

In my own PPC experience, or any other match shooting for that matter, it's a great advantage to work out your positions to the point you get into them comfortably during the match. That way you can focus on the sights and trigger pull instead of struggling to find or stay in a position. Also allows you to not fight the clock and rush shots. You definitely want loads that'll hold the x-ring and allow allow you to call your shots. The more accurate the better! PPC's a little tricky as precise aiming with standard sights only allows a center shot unless you can see the scoring rings.

[MtGun44]

My eyes are 60 this year, and I am fortunate enough to be able to still see the sights well
on a sunny day and still shoot groups like I could 30 yrs ago.

Not quite the same in dim light, tho.

As to the original question - depends a whole lot on the gun, aside from all the normal -
"How good can you shoot?" kind of questions. Some guns will just shoot better than
others, and then you need to work on the load, too.

Anyhow - 2.5" at 25 isn't going to shock people that know how to shoot and have a really
good gun and load, but it is perfectly useful for most applications and a whole lot better than
about 85% of the shooters out there can do, ever.

Bill

[dualsport]

Well I came to the right place with that question. I'm getting 'experience' sitting on my butt! Next match is next Tuesday, I missed the last one due to work. If I get time I'll try some more loads but may have to go with the 2 1/2 incher for now. The Lyman diopter thingamajig looks like a good thing and it's only $20. Might just be my eyes and the gun/load is already in the 1" range. I'll order one and see. Doubt I'll build a full on ppc gun with the 4 position sights. This match is more of a fun match, not too serious but is run by the book. If you go over the whistle (who can hear that? [deaf too]) you lose a 10. One thing I noticed that never bothered me before is there's a lof of space between the sides of the rear sight notch and the front sight. Replacement rear leafs for M19?

[RP]

iam sure my pistols will do better then i can shoot so i look at it as how well of a day i had holding them in line to what i am shooting

[Whistler]

Nice to see a thread about American PPC! I thought it was all but dead... Here in Europe it is an up and coming event, we grow by the numbers for every year! :)

You speak of high scores around 290. Is 300 points your max? We shoot 150 shots in our main match, 60 shots in the distinguished and 48 shots in the Service/Off Duty matches.

The world championships are held here in Sweden in the end of August. Check the web page out here: http://www.ppc1500wc2011.se/

To get back to the thread... My competition load does 2.36" at 25 yards measured from the holes outer ring. I've shot 1474 out of 1500 points with it. Not saying the loads can't be better though...

[357shooter]

Nice to see a thread about American PPC! I thought it was all but dead... Here in Europe it is an up and coming event, we grow by the numbers for every year! :)

You speak of high scores around 290. Is 300 points your max? We shoot 150 shots in our main match, 60 shots in the distinguished and 48 shots in the Service/Off Duty matches.

The world championships are held here in Sweden in the end of August. Check the web page out here: http://www.ppc1500wc2011.se/

To get back to the thread... My competition load does 2.36" at 25 yards measured from the holes outer ring. I've shot 1474 out of 1500 points with it. Not saying the loads can't be better though...
Are you shooting the 2.36" groups off-hand or off a rest?

[Lloyd Smale]

the corse we shoot has a max of 300 points for 30 shots fired. Theres a few competions around here that do a 50 shot match though.
Nice to see a thread about American PPC! I thought it was all but dead... Here in Europe it is an up and coming event, we grow by the numbers for every year! :)

You speak of high scores around 290. Is 300 points your max? We shoot 150 shots in our main match, 60 shots in the distinguished and 48 shots in the Service/Off Duty matches.

The world championships are held here in Sweden in the end of August. Check the web page out here: http://www.ppc1500wc2011.se/

To get back to the thread... My competition load does 2.36" at 25 yards measured from the holes outer ring. I've shot 1474 out of 1500 points with it. Not saying the loads can't be better though...

[Whistler]

357shooter: Off a rest.

Lloyd Smale: Do you only have one event at each match? Do you have a link to the rulebook you use?

[sffar]

Where I shoot the indoor match is 60 rounds, unless it's a snubby match, then it's 50.

[MtGun44]

Lyman diopter is VERY good if you are shooting slowly enough to use it. Not too whippy for
fast shooting. It should definitely help.

Bill

[Dale53]

About three years ago, I pretty much lost the vision in my right eye. I switched to left eye-right handed shooting. Curiously enough, it only took a couple of sessions to get up to speed (reinforces the opinion of those who say shooting is 90% head and 10% physical). At any rate, along with losing the functional use of my right eye, I had cataract operations.

I tried a Red Dot sight. Now, I have over a dozen of these on a like number of pistols and revolvers. Talk about a revelation! I am shooting about as well as I did thirty years ago (and that is pretty dern good, I tell you).

Get over the "traditional" mind set and try a Red Dot. You will LOVE it, I sure do!!

Here is my 625-8 .45 ACP JM Special with a Simmons Red Dot:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/SW625-8JMSpecial-3351.jpg

Here's what I have shot with it (25 yards, standing):

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/img095.jpg

Dale53

[sffar]

The red dot is an excellent sight. I use one on my Bullseye target .22 to help with being left eye dominant and right handed. Not so much squinting and eye fatigue. Don't know if it's legal in formal PPC, but we allow them in our more casual club matches.

[44MAG#1]

DALE53:
What load did you use to shoot that target on post #38 and can you shoot groups that small offhand consistantly?
I have one of those revolvers and I like it.

[ColColt]

Get over the "traditional" mind set and try a Red Dot. You will LOVE it, I sure do!!

I've never tried one but I can imagine that dot bouncing all over the target-sort of like hand holding a 3-9x scope. I couldn't do those kind of groups from a bench at half that distance much less off hand at 25 yards...totally remarkable.

BTW-I have an extreme amount of lust for that 45 ACP-just what I've looked for off and on. I'll have to snag a pic of it and blow it up to 11x14 and paste it to my ceiling.:razz:

[357shooter]

A Red Dot doesn't project the dot and doesn't have any magnification either. So it doesn't bounce all around like a scope at all. They are pretty awesome if you haven't tried one.

[Dale53]

44MAG#1;
The load is my standard target load (4.0 grs of Bullseye {or equivalent} behind a Mihec #68 200 gr SWC). The alloy is WW's+2% tin sized at .452". The primer is Federal #150.

>>>can you shoot groups that small offhand consistantly?<<<

No. I can do it often enough to make it interesting but not every time. In fact, if you would have seen me shoot today, you might wonder why I was trying:groner:. However, I recovered by the last target and it got "WAY-Y-Y better"...

Dale53

[44MAG#1]

DALE53:
Have you found a load with the Mihec 270 SAA bullet yet for the gun? I hve used it in mine and I like it but just haven't found the combination I like.
I also use a Magma Engineering 250 RNFP in mine and like it too. But, I still haven't found a load I really like either.
Have been shooting 5.4 Unique with the Mihec and 6.2 Unique with the Magma. Fed 150's too and Starline 45 AR brass.
Let me know if you have a good load for the 270 gr.
I did chrono some Buffalo Bore 45 ACP ammo that is +p rated loaded with the 250 gr Magma Sundles gets from Rim Rock bullets at 970 fps.

[Whitworth]

A Red Dot doesn't project the dot and doesn't have any magnification either. So it doesn't bounce all around like a scope at all. They are pretty awesome if you haven't tried one.

+ 1 -- Exactly!

I too had a little trouble accepting the red dot as a viable alternative, but I am over that completely.

[Dale53]

44MAG#1;
In my Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt, I use 8.5 grs of Unique with the Mihec 270-SAA bullet (that actually weighs 285 grs with my alloy when cast solid and 270 grs when cast hollow point). A good friend took a deer this past hunting season with this load and a hollow point bullet that I cast out of 20/1 lead/tin. It expanded well and took the deer. The bullet was not recovered, but expansion was obvious by the damage done. You might want to back off to 8.0 grs if you are shooting a .45 Colt other than a Ruger Blackhawk.

It the Ruger Black Hawk, you can run this bullet much faster but I tend to use "standard" load levels for practice.

I don't have my Lyman 4th Edition Cast Bullet handbook at hand, just now, but I believe it has full loading data for this bullet.

In the April-May 2007 Handloader Magazine (issue #246) Brian Pearce has an EXCELLENT article on the use of this bullet. You can download a partial copy of that issue that includes that great article here. It is on page 12. Download it and copy it to your computer or print it out. You will find it VERY useful and helpful:

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

Dale53

[44MAG#1]

DALE53:
We got our signals crossed. I am still talking about the Jerry Michelek 45 ACP S&W. Not a 45 Colt.
What about the Mihec 270 SAA bullet in it. I was quoting loads I have used in mine.
Looking for what you have used.
Also I have used up to 19 gr 2400 with the RCBS 270 SAA bullet and the Mihec 270 SAA bullet in a Ruger New Vaquero in 45 Colt and it does well. Although I use mostly 6.0 gr Bullseye with it in the 45 Colt mostly for 780 fps from my 45/8's inch guns.
The heavy loads I do not need.
Still what about the S&W 45 ACP JM revolver?

[Dale53]

44MAG#1;
Sorry about that!

Send me your Email address in a Private Message and I will send you Brian Pearce's article on the .45 Auto Rim that includes loading data on the 45-270-SAA.

My heavy bullet is the NOE (Lyman) 454424 at 250 grs. I have not yet worked with the 45-270-SAA bullet in the .45 Auto Rim.

Dale53

[ColColt]

How big is the dot at say 10 yards...or 25 for that matter. Does it cover a three inch bullseye at either distance?I'm having a hard time conceiving how this device works if it doesn't bounce around like a laser. I've never seen one.

[subsonic]

A red dot works just like a scope with a red dot instead of a crosshair and generally no magnification.

[357shooter]

I have a Tasco from Midway that set me back about $37, before shipping. It handles handles up to 357 mag, 44 mag needs a higher priced unit. The dot is 5 MOA at 100 yards. I typically shoot it at 25 yards and sight it in for a 6 o'clock hold. So the POI is just above the top of the dot, which can only be seen by looking through the Red Dot unit itself.

They can be inexpensive, or cost hundreds. For my 357, the Tasco is perfect.

For a 44mag you might need something like: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=686150

That one is $65.

[Dale53]

I have several different brands of Red Dots. My most used ones are the Simmons. The Simmons were relatively inexpensive and have four different reticules (small dot, larger dot, diamond, and crosshairs). I normally use the small dot. The best use of the dot reticule is to let your natural tendency to center round things IN round things and hold center. Off the bags for groups and sighting in, etc. you might find the crosshairs work better.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/374947-REG/Simmons_851234_Shot_Dot_Red_Dot.html

I prefer the 30 mm size for best combination of field of view with reasonable size. The larger ones seem to overbalance the revolver. However, I have a Ruger SP 101 that I had a 1" size mounted (small revolver, small sight):

625-6 with Simmons:
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/QDalesRevolversandPistols-1717.jpg

Ruger Sp 101 with a Bushnell:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/DalesPistolsRevolvers5Selects-0261.jpg

For the "Heavy Hitters" you will want a more robust Red Dot (and more expensive) like this Ultra Dot on a 629 Light Hunter:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/QDalesRevolversandPistols-1728.jpg

Dale53

[357shooter]

Here's the Tasco on my Taurus 66, after a day of shooting (10 yards was off a rest, don't recall the 25 yard target):

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wbcOEGqGVL8/TRASGYdaNLI/AAAAAAAAAAo/bFmdnb9XwJg/s640/Red+Dot+66SS6+009.jpg

[ColColt]

I've bought a lot of photographic equipment from B&H over the years-great folks. I didn't know they sold anything like this.

I like the looks of the 25-6 with the Simmons but, I'd hate to have to drill and tap my GP100 to add one. Apparently from the targets they are the stuff, though.

[357shooter]

Just for fun, there are open-style Red Dots too. They look more like this:

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/medium/936/936448.jpg

[44MAG#1]

Dale53
Got the e-mail, Thanks. I had the loading data but not the article. Had been looking for it so now I have it.
Thanks again

[fecmech]

I've bought a lot of photographic equipment from B&H over the years-great folks. I didn't know they sold anything like this.

I like the looks of the 25-6 with the Simmons but, I'd hate to have to drill and tap my GP100 to add one. Apparently from the targets they are the stuff, though.

Just 2 6X48 holes in your top strap, same as this SBH of mine. Weigand makes an excellent mount and there are others out there for the Ruger that don't require D&T.

[subsonic]

To give an idea of how much the dots cover at each range, 1MOA is close to 1 inch at 100 yards. Would be 1/2 inch at 50, 1/4 inch at 25, etc.

4moa would cover 1 inch at 25yds.

1moa is actually 1.047 inches, for the sticklers.

[NHlever]

My first centerfire revolver was a 6" S&W K-38. I shot that gun a lot, and my eyes were very good then too. I used it for everything from tin cans to small game to one nice buck. One day I shot three soda bottles in a row offhand at 100 yards at a gunsmith friend's range. He had been trying to hit them with a 30-06 Remington 742 (loose scope mount) and was pretty frustrated. He watched silently, and then put a $20 bill on the shooting bench, and said "do that again". I holstered the gun, and said "Harry, right now you think I'm a pretty good shot. I think I will leave it that way."
:D :D Sometimes things just work out right. I never put that gun on paper from a rest, but I always knew that when I missed it was more than likely my fault.

[dualsport]

Update; this project continues, now I'm not fooling around! I broke down and ordered 1,000 new .357 cases from Starline ($125 delivered). Last week I picked up some work and did not have time to load for the ppc match. I borrowed ammo from my wife, Remington .38 Sp. 130 fmjrn factory loads. I really don't like doing that, but ended up shooting my best score yet, a 257. Optical sights of any kind are not allowed in this match, open iron only. I do have a SBH .44 that takes a red dot and they are great sights. Mine's a $35 BSA from Wallyworld and works fine. I've taken the Ruger/BSA hunting in a shoulder rig but could not find a bear to cooperate. Looking thru the red dot in the woods is much easier than using the factory sights. Only looking at rocks though, no hair. Yet.

[Whitworth]

The Ultradot 30 has a fixed 4 MOA dot. It's quite capable of outstanding accuracy. I shot this group at 50 yards with my .500 JRH BFR. I'm generally speaking not a very good group shooter. I think the first shot is most important, but the red dot will do the trick if you do yours.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f196/MarkoR/P1000585.jpg