Sooting Mould Cavities

[casterofboolits]

I have noticed that when his subject comes up the standard nswer is "it's just covering up a problem, not solving it".

What is the problem being covered up by "smoking the cavities"? :confused:

[Ben]

You know casterofboolits.......

I continue to hear the same thing. I've cleaned molds until the
" cows come home " and sometimes they are still reluctant to drop a decent bullet.

Put in a VERY thin coat of soot from a butane lighter into the cavity ( or cavities ) and BINGO ! !, we're off to the races. Beautiful bullets each and every cast.

I guess I'll just continue to " cover up a problem " here on my end of things.

( I do want to add a note.....too much soot in your cavity or cavities isn't your friend -it is like the old Brylcreem Commercial......A little dab will do Ya . A VERY TINY amount can and will make a tremendous difference in the way a mold will cast )

Ben

[MtGun44]

Never saw any benefit, myself. Tried soot, sprays, etc. Now just scrub with a toothbrush
and Comet for new Lee molds, just dish soap and toothbrush for iron molds, and
off the to molding. No problems. I do not smoke molds anymore and they work just
fine, IME.

Bill

[Catshooter]

If I have a cavity that wants to stick I'll coat a boolit from it with 300 to 400 grit paste and spin it in the cavity for a moment.

It's fixed every one I've done it to. I even had a .437 round ball mould that needed it and that worked too.


Cat

[Von Gruff]

I tried the lighter under the cavity and other 'tricks' that were suposed to help boolit release but had spotty results. Getting the mould to the right heat and casting quickly is far more bebeficial in good boolit release. YMMV.

Von Gruff.

[1874Sharps]

I found molds hard to draw through and hard to light, so I stick to cigars. Seriously, though, I have found smoking the mold with a butane lighter to be helpful at times when the boolit would not fill out properly. It seems like it takes a few dozen boolits after smoking the mold, but it is an accepted technique and there is nothing wrong with doing it. Just call Lee technical support if you doubt this.

[GRUMPA]

I've tried that technique, the one where you spin a cast boolit in the cavity that's giving issues. I don't really have alot of molds compared to other folks but more often than not I still have to soot the cavity on almost all my molds. I've tried candles,stick matches,lighters (and the toothbrush) not cigars though, but when I read from what others have done hoping they know more than I do about casting I give it a shot just to see how it works. One of those you never know till you try things in life.

Although with all my years I really haven't wasted a lot of my time pondering why things don't work perfectly. For me and the way I think if I soot it up or smoking the mold as I like to call it works better than not doing it I figure well that was kinda an easy fix. The only thing about that makes any kind of sense is to me it's like Teflon coating a frying pan. For some it works out just fine and things just kinda slide right out of it. And for others cooking on a cast iron skillet and occasionally having something stick isn't an issue. But both ways still get the job done the way the individual wants it too.

[Ben]

When I re-read my post # 2, I realize it may sound like I'm making reference to bullets sticking or releasing properly. It was my intention to refer to nothing but mold fill out.

Sooting a mold will have nothing to do with burrs , etc. that make a bullet stick in the cavity. I've never had a mold that had " micro - burrs " in the cavity that sooting helped at all.

I may have been mistaken, but I thought that the OP was concerned about fill out of a mold and whether or not sooting would help ?....maybe not ?

[MtGun44]

Maybe I misunderstood, if so, this is my apology for going off topic.

Bill

[geargnasher]

The Lee technical staff knows about as much about boolit casting as my cat. Actually, my cat likes to lounge and watch me cast, so he probably knows a lot more than they do, but unfortunately he lacks opposable thumbs.

First, the problems sooting masks: Burrs on the edges of the mould. Common to mass-produced moulds, microscopic burrs from machining can peen inward during shipping, handling, and casting which cause a lip on the edges of the cavity, making it a real bear to get the boolit to release. "Leementing" with a razor and loupe solves this, as does a good lapping. Cutting oil. Mould cherries and lathe tools are lubricated with cutting fluid, often a water-soluble oil. The oil is forced into the pores of the metal under great pressure from the cutter, and it takes considerable effort to remove it. While traces of this oil are purging out, the boolits will be ugly and wrinkled, no matter how hot the mould is. This oil often outlasts the patience of the user, who resorts to smoking the mould out of frustration, gets it to work, and perpetrates the myth further. The best way to deal with the oil is to remove it, either by soaking overnight in a solvent more volatile than the oil and which doesn't leave residue itself (like denatured alcohol), scrubbing repeatedly with a toothbrush, dish detergent, and HOT water, or simply by heating the mould to casting temperature and cooling it several times and THEN scrubbing it with water, detergent, and toothbrush.

The problems with smoke: The smoke creates a coating that coats over burrs, plugs the pores of the cavity and keeps the oil trapped inside, insulates the surface and causes poor surface finish and poor fine-detail filling, and takes up space, making boolits cast slightly smaller. It is a band-aid, and Lee uses it as a quick-and-dirty "fix" in their instructions probably because no amount of boldface type could convince the average user just how much effort is needed to make them clean enough to cast well.

Al Nelson of NOE recommends several (three) full preheat/cool cycles of his aluminum moulds before even attempting to cast with them. That's to get rid of the oils.

If you get near any of my moulds with a lighter we WILL have an altercation! Now you have the facts, you do what you want to yours.

Gear

[mroliver77]

He raeally did not clarify. Just a generic why smoke a mold question.
I remember on the Beverly Hillbillies show that Granny was smokin crawdads. This hippy asked her, "Like man aint they kinda hard to keep lit?" lol

I am with the non smoking crowd as far as molds go.

1874 Sharps, what does Lee know about molds anyhow? ;) hehehehe

[MT Gianni]

I have cleaned out a bunch of sooted up furnaces in my life. Oil, coal, propane or gas, soot is one of the greasiest substances around. It smears, stains and is tough to remove. Steam works OK on it.
The benefit in a mold is as a lubricant. The disadvantages are lack of uniform plating, reduction of boolit diameter and lack of staying power. There should be no need to lube the inside of a cavity that is properly made and tuned. As you can see the disadvantages far out weigh the advantage.

[mroliver77]

I used to be very very picky about my boolits. If they were not perfect I was not happy. I have shot culls that were ugly from minute traces of oil against beautiful boolits with little to no difference. For long range rifle or especially small bore I am much more picky.

The oil contamination that gear talks about will burn off too. I like to cycle new molds on the hotplate followed by a quick cleaning then just keep them casting temp hot for a couple hours. I believe they get a nice coat of oxidation? thats helps to "season" them.

I have been storing mine with Eds Red. It cleans out very quickly.
Jay

[462]

It seems that, whenever the subject of applying Kroil to a mould's cavities rears its controversial head, someone will poo-poo the idea, then say that they either smoke their moulds or use a release agent.

[cbrick]

It seems that, whenever the subject of applying Kroil to a mould's cavities rears its controversial head, someone will poo-poo the idea, then say that they either smoke their moulds or use a release agent.

Not me, I wouldn't do any of the three. Least of all the Kroil but none of them for my molds. When I get a new mold I clean it and then keep it that way.

Rick

[casterofboolits]

Just to clarify my question a bit. I must confess to being mould smoker. And yes, they are hard to keep lit.

I had a boolit casting business for over twenty years and cast and sold severl million boolits over the years. Mostly for IPSC shooters. Now, I cast for myself and few friends.

Last week, we found that we were low on GPAZAPR (General Purpose Anti Zombie And Plinking Rounds) so I broke out a six cavity H&G #275 09-125-SWCBB and a four cavity Saeco #929 38S-145-SWCBB. Scrubbed the cavities with Barkeepers Friend and a toothbrush. Then scrubbed the cavities with Dawn and a toothbrush and rinsed with hot water. Not once, not twice, but three times.

Preheated the moulds on top of my RCBS 10 Kilo pot. Pot temp was 700 degrees per my Lyman thermometer. Niether of these mould have sticky cavities and the boolits almost jump out of thier own accord. I've had both moulds for over twenty years.

I cast for a solid hour and did not produce a single keeper from either mould. Threw my hands up in disgust and shame and broke out the Bic and proeeded to apply soot to the cavities of both moulds. Instant good boolits. I then proceeded to cast 2,600 of the nines and 1,600 of the supers without further problems.

Both boolits sized perfectly to 357 and could have been sized to 358 if I wanted.

Do I need to pre heat the moulds to a higher temp with a hot plate?

[geargnasher]

Since I wasn't able to watch you, I can't say. The 4-bangers require a pretty brisk pace to keep them hot enough to cast the kind of boolits I like, but I like a satin frost. A hotplate is almost always necessary with anything bigger than a two-cavity IME. Any chance you can post pics of the culls, or did they all get recast? Why were they culls? What was the alloy? Did you add any tin? Were the rejects shiny? How about the keepers from the smoked mould?

If you were a commercial caster, saying that you have the experience to cast a few plinkers is a gross understatement, but maybe it's a matter of habit. I say don't sweat it if you get good boolits after smoking the moulds, but I'm curious why you're having problems.

Gear

[stubshaft]

I am and always will be a fan of Kroil and it's myriad of uses in boolit molds. I will not get into any more arguments about which works and what YOU should use. I will say that in the course of your casting career you will find what works for you! I have used mold releases (Rapine) tried smoking the cavities (didn't work for me) extreme scrubbing (works but is a drag to do it every time I want to cast). I confess that I don't know exactly what problems are being covered up by sooting the mold. I did it when I started casting in the 70's and gave it up because of inferior results (for me).

[milprileb]

Well, Kroil made the molds drop bullets like thunder: all of them were terrible and after an hour of trying to see if things would mellow out... and no success, had to let the 6 cav Lee mold cool down and then scrub it out with carb cleaner and then the mold went back to dropping bullets perfectly with a hung bullet about every 4 openings of mold. I sure don't see any yardage using Kroil.

If I were to choose: soot a mold cavity or apply Kroil, the SOOT has my vote.:violin:

[casterofboolits]

Gear,

My alloy is based on 50/50 wheelweights and indoor range scrap with one and a half pounds of sweetner added. The sweetner is 90% lino, 10% tin. All of my moulds have been modified to drop +/- one grain of listed weight with this alloy.

I'm going to visit Wally World later tody and see if I can find a solid top hot plate, clean a couple Lyman four cavity #358429 moulds and try try this again. Look for them soon in the Swappin' and Selling Forum.

Yes, all the wrinkled boolits went back in the pot. I will take some pics of the sized and lubed boolits and try to post them later today.

I still have my Magma Lube Master with MA Systems collator, so it didn't take long to finish this batch of boolits.

[georgewxxx]

Soot is carbon, and carbon is an insulator. So it ups the metal temperature just enough or sometimes too much for complete fill-out. After 45 years of casting I've learned that every mould has a soul of it's own and what works for one, won't do swat for another balky critter. Trying to compare aluminum, brass, steel, meahite moulds, if single or multiple cavities, really shouldn't be done as they're all so different in handling quality's. Most times when I smoke a mould, it works better for a while until it gets too hot. then I take a clean Q-tip and remove all or a portion of the carbon and continue. I've found Kroil works to a some degree, but it's not the answer for all fill problems. It's just another tool we caster buy and use to keep or hobby up to snuff.

[Ben]

So that I can learn something here...............

If a caster puts a very light coat of carbon ( soot ) in a mold after he has cleaned it several times and it cast good bullets that meet his needs. What real harm is being done to the mold or his casting experience with the mold on that day ?

Ben

[geargnasher]

It isn't that black and white, Ben. For your purposes, the smoke was a useful tool. You were casting pistol boolits, not 1000-yard match rifle boolits. I can cast match-quality boolits just as easily as plinkers, so I use the better technique all the time. By "better" I mean consistent. Spotless, grease/soot-free cavities, faintly lubed alignment pins, clean mould block faces, and properly tensioned sprue plate are essential to casting consistent boolits. When casting, I get the mould preheated, start casting, and when I settle into the pouring technique and cadence that gets me in the "zone", I start throwing the boolits in the keeper pile. You have to be flexible when casting, some days I can't get a shiny, filled-out boolit at all. So I speed up and get the mould into the light frost zone. Some days boolits just fall like rain from a cooler mould. A lot depends on alloy and weather, the rest on how you do it.

I used to have a quote from my great-uncle in my sig line: "You see, it ain't HOW you do it, it's the WAY you do it!".

Gear

[Ben]

Gear

OK.....I can go with that.

Ben

[rintinglen]

The one issue that I found with smoking was keeping the smoke in the cavities and out of the vent lines. I got boolits that would fall out easier, but were poorly filled out. I never do it these days, but keep the thought in my mind just in case I run across a recalcitrant mold that wants to be troublesome.

[Southron Sanders]

I have a Master Caster casting machine on which I use modified (adapted to work on the machine) Lyman bullet moulds. Aluminum Moulds ARE NOT a option because the Master Caster will eat them alive! Which is fine with me because I HATE aluminum moulds anyway.

But, now to the topic on hand. Getting ready to start a casting session, after the lead in the machine's pot has melted, I fire up the old propane torch and "Heat Up" the mould.

Usually, when I start casting the first bullet will come out perfect followed by many more. Another "trick" I use is since I cast .58 Minie Balls I use "pure" lead with the exception that I throw just a little tin in the pot. The Minie's usually come out "perfect" and more "bright and shiny" than Minies cast out of pure lead only.

My point? Well I think in addition to heating up the mould to casting temperature, the propane torch leaves a thin coating of residue in the mould cavity that is helpful in producing good bullets.

[casterofboolits]

+1 for the propane torch on the Master Caster moulds. You can see the moisture leaving the blocks.

Tip for Master Caster: NEVER fill up the pot and let cool and start up the next day. Fourty pounds of lead over the mould frame is a bear to clean up! Had to buy a new tank of propane after cleaning up that mess!

[cajun shooter]

I, like others that ever purchased a Lee mould have smoked the mould. I would not call Lee if the building was on fire. I think that some of our members lost the OP and went into another direction somewhat. I am not pointing fingers as I have been guilty of the same and more. The best thing I ever did was to go back to 1970 and remember what my mentor showed me. Over the years I changed the process to shorten it and messed up. The way that I do it now is with a large single burner hot plate. I also use custom brass moulds from Accurate that are 3 cavity. I have two cut the same. I put them on the hot plate on high at the same time I turn on my RCBS PRO MELT. I turn down the hot plate to about half temp when ready to pour. This step is not going to be the same for each plate as I had to do several changes until I located the sweet spot. I fill mould 1 and return it to the plate and fill mould 2 and return it to the plate. I then remove mould 1 and drop it's bullets onto a soft towel , after which I refill the mould and return it to the plate and moving on to mould 2 and drop it's bullets onto the towel. Refill mould 2 and return it to the hotplate. The process has now went through one cycle. It is much faster than me writing about it. The moulds don't over heat but stay at that perfect temp to make nice bullets. I don't have culls any more and my casting has returned to being fun. I will not return to using aluminum moulds any more but that is ME.