Makarov? PA63 Hungarian 9X18

[waksupi]

I'm looking for a light social pistol, that will fit in a pocket easily. It seems I saw mention of this pistol recently, and would like to hear opinions from owners.

[9.3X62AL]

My Makarov is an East German variant, and I think VERY highly of it as a pocket gun/caliber. Its ballistics just about max out blowback operation capabilities. I would place it about midway between 380 ACP and USA-level 9mm Luger ammo in terms of power. Think of it as a Walther PP on steroids, although the Mak doesn't bite the web of my thumb like the Walther 380's do.

[Scrounger]

In the photo, top left is a Star 9X19; top right is an Armscor .45 ACP Officer's Model type; lower left is the Makarov PA-63 in 9X18; and lower right is a PA-64 in 9X18, a slightly smaller Makarov copy made in Poland. All good carry guns. I have an extra PA-64 if you decide to go that route.

[waksupi]

I see Sarco has them for a very good price at the time. $140 would work well for me.
What about ammo availability?

[Baldy]

Most all gun shops have ammo for them around here. Plus they sell like hot cakes at the gun shows.

[wiljen]

The Pa-63 has the advantage of an aluminum frame too. It has PPK looks but weighs considerably less as the PPK is steel framed. To me this was a plus when looking for a pocket gun. The one thing you will want to do is better sights - put bluntly they suck. The slide can be dovetailed and aftermarket sights installed which greatly aids in shooting it. A trigger job would help as well but it is shootable without one. While ammo is readily available - defensive ammo (read HP bullets) are hard to find sometimes so you might look around for a dealer near you that stocks them or plan on ordering online. Lee makes a mold for the Makarov now and boxer primed brass is available so it should be a fun little toy.

[BCB]

waksupi,
I have one of the Russian Raikal made by IMEZ is what it says on the handgun. I have no idea what that means, but that is the 9mm Makarov that I own. I purchased it for around 130 bucks and that included a cleaning kit and flap holster—both of which are stored some place in my reloading room never to be found or used again!!!
I use this little critter as a pocket gun as you want to do. It gets filthy and handled rather roughly but it continues to cycle as well as when it was new—maybe better since the sharp edges of the action have been removed from use. It comes apart as easy as anything handgun I have ever experience. Amazingly simple! I make my own brass from the 9mm rounds and I shoot some jacketed bullets in it, but I do have a mold, a Lee 365-95-1R. These shoot quit well from a good bench rest, about 1.5 inches at 15 yards. Good enough for me and what I MIGHT have to use this semi for. My uncle always asks when I stop at his place a few times a year, “Ya got that Russian with ya?” “Yep, I do!” Good-luck…BCB

[45 2.1]

The PA63 is a little more fussy about its ammo requirements than the Makarovs. Any of the surplus RN loads work fine though. Someone on the board is wanting to do a GB for a flat nose boolit for the Maks, so that might have be a future option also.

[Freightman]

I have a Bulgarian Mak that was rode hard and put up wet when I got it, the left side of the slide was pitted some and right above the safety. All I can figure is that it was carried next to the skin in a humid area and not oiled properly. Said that to say this it doesn't look good but it has never failed to feed or operate as designed, you do not have to baby them they are tough.

[waksupi]

I do believe I am sold. I'll order one in.

[Swagerman]

Scrounger, I don't see a PA-63 in your pictures...unless the Mak is using the same number system as the FEG PA-63.

Here is a FEG PA-63, made in Hungary. Note the rear palm swell that is characteristic of this pistol. This one is in .380 caliber.

The grips are home made and etched by laser cut from a local shop.

Jim

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/P1160020cropped650X-1.jpg

[Scrounger]

The Makarov is the PA-63. Top 2 are photos of the Makarov PA-63; Bottom photos are of the slightly smaller PA-64, made in Poland. Sort of an Officiers Model of the Makarov.

[Scrounger]

I had a CZ 52, thought it was a piece of crap and sold it. But I really like the caliber. Now if someone could make the Makarov digest that 7.62X25 cartridge, we'd really have a great combination.

[Swagerman]

OK, the Russian and the Hungarian pistols are running with the same ID numbers, got it now. :mrgreen:
Jim

[Pat I.]

I have a couple of Bulgarian Maks and agree they're great pistols but they might be a little big to stick in a pocket, I think you'll need some kind of holster to tote it around. I haven't heard much good about the Polish PA 64 and would probably go with the original Mak if given a choice.

Ammo used to be readily available and pretty cheap but supplies are drying up and it's getting harder to find and pretty expensive. Look at Makarov. com for all the goodies you can buy for it and links to forums. I'd suggest a 19 lb. recoil spring right off the bat and if they have any a new extended magazine floorplate.

[9.3X62AL]

Art--

Ya wanna borrow my Type 54 Chi-Com Tokarev? :-)

Both the 30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 and the 30 Luger are fine calibers for rats and small game, about 5%-10% ahead of the 32 Magnum in factory trim. The "problem" with the 7.62 x 25 is its overall length, 1.370". Most self-loading pistols' slide travel is too short to accomodate that cartridge length. Hence the 30 Luger, and in factory loads the two calibers are pretty close ballistically.

I've spoken by phone with Irv Stone of Bar-Sto Barrels, and while he thinks highly of chambering swap barrels in 30 Luger for 9mm pistols--his staff vetoes the move due to market realities. Hate that. About 5 years ago, a Riverside shop had a SIG P-210 variant on sale with 9mm, 30 Luger, and 22 LR swap barrels in a factory case, 98%+ condition. They wanted $3300 for the set, and I balked. Not too smart, that.

The Makarov is a pretty unapologetic copy of the Walther PP series--with an outside slide release add-on, while the Tokarev is almost pure Colt/Browning, with the sear/disconnector/hammer group in a detachable sub-assembly. The Soviets took two classic western designs--gave them a slight upgrade--and built bazillions of them.

[kywoodwrkr]

waksupi,
If you get a PA63 plan on getting a set of springs from Makarov(dot)com .
The light frame will hold up better under full 9x18 loads that way.
I have an EG Makarov which is all steel and a couple of PA63s.
The difference in weight and subsequent recoil action is very evident when firing factory CCI ammunition.
I have a Lyman MAK mould and the LEE mould.
Had an RCBS mould but sold it to a member here.
Lots of information available on the gunboards.com makarov forum.
As well as a trader forum section right below dedicated to mak stuff only.
EG maks were made on Walther hardware.
I carry my EG using a fobus(sp?) holster.
Last police officer who stopped me for traffic infraction was impressed with it. :-)
Get some rubber grips which ever way you go.
FWIW
DaveP

[lar45]

If you can, get an East German Mak!! they are a very nice gun. I bought a Russion one and it was kind of rough, but may get smoother with use. The East German one that I have is a much better gun. It is accurate and reliable. Someplace I found some Hornady XTP ammo for it. I did have a Walther PP in 32 auto and it could not even compare to the East German Mak.
The Mak has a rebounding hammer and decocker. You can also get 380 barrels for them.

I picked up a Star PD 45 auto and it is about the same size as the Mak. It has an aluminum frame and I hear it not good to shoot them much. You could get 3 Maks for the same price though.

At one point you could get a double stack magazine version Mak. I think they were Russian made??(not sure)

If you get an East German Mak and don't like it, I will buy it from you.

[Pat I.]

I think I gave some bum information about your question. The gun I think you're talking about is the FEG PA-63 which is not the same gun as the Makarov PM that was the eastern block military pistol. Both are chambered in 9x18 but thats the only thing the same so all the tips about getting things from Makarov. com don't apply and maybe it would fit in your pocket. I think Swagerman's right that the Makarov PM was never called the Model 63 and I'm pretty sure Hungary never produced the Makarov PM pistols. Scroungers picture does show a Makarov PM on the lower left but I think what your going to get is the one that's in Swagerman's post. All Mak's are steadily rising in price but the EG ones are really up there and have quite a following.

[Swagerman]

You mean...once in my life...I'm right??? :mrgreen:

All I know is its stamped PA-63 on the slide and sez 9 mm Kurtz, which means the shorty .380 caliber. At least that's what I shoot in it, and it works very nice.

Jim

[Pat I.]

Jim, Don't know if you're right or wrong but I'm pretty sure that yours is the ony picture of a PA-63. They were chambered for both the 380 and the 9x18, the 9x18 for the Hungarian police and military.

[waksupi]

I've been browsing Makarov.com (thanks Dave), and getting educated, I plead true ignorance on small pistols, being a dyed in the wool 1911 guy. But, do see reasons for having a pocket pistol.
Being a 1911 guy, please explain how the decocker works on these.That term always sounds dangerous to me.

[Scrounger]

I've been browsing Makarov.com (thanks Dave), and getting educated, I plead true ignorance on small pistols, being a dyed in the wool 1911 guy. But, do see reasons for having a pocket pistol.
Being a 1911 guy, please explain how the decocker works on these.That term always sounds dangerous to me.


I never feel comfortable with de-cockers myself but I know of no instance in which they did not work correctly. There is no safety on the gun. It is a double action for the first shot but the hammer stays back (ala 1911) for subsequent rounds. If you are finished before the magazine is empty, you depress the decocking lever. It drops the hammer but it is blocked from hitting the firing pin. Like I said, I've never heard of a malfunction but nervous nelly that I am, I catch the hammer with my thumb and lower it gently.

[lar45]

The Saftey/decocker is mounted on the left rear of the slide. With the hammer cocked you push the lever up and it drops the hammer but blocks the fireing pin. The rebounding hammer is a built in saftey. With the trigger pulled the hammer can go forward to hit the fireing pin but then comes slightly back to be at rest away from the fireing pin. When you let go of the trigger, the hammer is blocked from going forward.
I just went and got mine to look at it. When you push the saftey lever(mounted on the slide) up there is a piece of steel(part of the lever) that rotates out to block the hammer and stops it at the at rest position. The hammer blocking part(great technical name, brain is tired) is in position before the hammer drops. With the hammer down, you can push the saftey/decocker lever up and it will not let you pull the trigger or cock the hammer.

[9.3X62AL]

Isn't caliber nomenclature FUN?

There were two very different 9 x 18 cartridges......the 9 x 18 Ultra, with nominal .355" bullets--it is the 380 ACP/9mm Kurz/9mm Corto/9 x 17 with case length extended 1mm from the earlier 380, otherwise it's dimensionally similar. There were SIG-Sauer P-230's and CZ-83's made in some numbers with this chambering, and some others.

The 9 x 18 MAKAROV differs in having a bullet diameter of .363" to .365", and its case is essentially a 9mm Luger with the tapered case walls straightened and 1mm of case length lopped off. That is exactly how I made my first cases for my PM.

[lar45]

When I first got mine, I couldn't find any correct bullets to reload and wasn't casting at that time. I trimmed 9 luger cases down and loaded with .355" 115 JHPs and useing 380 load data. Even with the bullets being undersized, they shot very well and velocity was right on with the load data.

Scrounger mentioned useing a Star 9mm. That is another often overlooked great shooting bargin. I like the Super variation with the quick take down lever on the right side. You just drop the magazine out, turn the lever forward and pull the slide forward off the frame. You can have it field stripped in about 10 seconds.
Star did make a smaller version in 380 that has a locked breach instead of a blow back like most others. The small Colt 380(Mustang?) that has a locking breach was made by Star.
Some day, I'd like to get my hands on a Star model P Super in 45 acp. So far I've only seen pictures of them.

[BD]

To go a bit off topic; I'm a 1911 kind of guy as well. But to go a little closer to the skin a M37 J-frame smith works well for me. I drop it in the front pocket of my jeans in a Uncle mikes pocket holster and have never drawn a glance. I like the 158 grain soft noses for social purposes, and after a little practice I can shoot it as well as my 1911 out to 20 yards. Living in the stinkin' hot low country I carry this more than the 1911 these days. 75 deg out today. BD

[txbirdman]

I have a Hugarian PA63 in 9X18 and like it quite well. I keep a Hornady 95 gr. HP in the barrel and the magazine loaded with Fiocchi 95 gr FMJ's. I did a little penetration test using gallon water jugs and found the Hornady to be the best compromize for expansion and penetration while the Fiocchi was the most powerful of the FMJ ammo available. In fact, the Fiocchi may have the tendancy to over penetrate. The Hornady ammo, which uses the XTP bullet, is the only JHP ammo I'd use in this caliber. I sometimes use the PA as a pocket pistol if wearing Dockers or something else with big pockets but it won't work with jeans. At least not for me.

[BD]

How fast is one of those littl 95 grainers going out of a 9x18?
BD

[lar45]

For compact little revolvers, EAA has a nice little snubby 357 called the Windicator.
http://www.eaacorp.com/images/Revolver/Windicator.jpg
The price is around $200.
I don't have one, but did shoot one at the range and it was suprizingly accurate with the 2" bbl. Back when I had my FFL, dealers cost was $150.

[9.3X62AL]

Dunno about the Hornady factory loads--the supposed Russian velocity is 1115 FPS for their service loads. I've loaded 95 grain JHP's and 100 grain castings to 1050-1075 FPS, and the pistols bounce around a little--but the Mak grip is a LOT better than the PP for me, so it isn't bad. Ejection gets a little vigorous with these full-potential loads.

[jobo12]

I don't claim to know much about the small autos, but for concealed carry, I like snub- nosed revolvers, and have several in various calibers. The aluminum-framed varieties are light as a feather in your pocket, (Taurus ultra-lite is 19 oz. the Smith version is even lighter), are cast boolit friendly, NEVER jam, and are very fast to get into action if the fecal matter strikes the whirling blades. One other thing to recommend them is that when in use, they don't spray brass all over the place, but conveniently keep it in the gun so that you can take it back home and dispose of it properly (i.e; load it up again). Leaving brass laying around is a bad idea and ecologically incorrect, these days. I guess mostly I just LIKE wheelguns-- they have their bad features, too. Whichever way you go, shoot much and often-- that matters more than what you carry.
Later, Joe

[corvette8n]

I have an EG Makarov that I got from Century a few years back great little gun,
Also bought a BAIKAL MP-654K BB pistol, it even has a genuine Mak slide.
it fits into those surplus Mak holsters, this way I can pratice with the BB gun without spending a fortune in ammo.

[waksupi]

Lar, how far did you have to trim back the 9mm Luger? I bought a couple boxes of Silver Bear at the gunshow yesterday, and see the price will make me interested in reloading. Any idea on availability of loading dies?

[9.3X62AL]

RCBS makes tungsten carbide sets at standard caliber price. Trim-to length for the 9 x 18 Makarov varies from source to source--.700" to .710". Starline has the brass, it runs .705". My first "home made" cases were cut at .710". Expand them first without belling, then trim. Forster makes pilots for this caliber, I imagine RCBS does too.

There is some interchange possible between 38 S&W and 9mm Makarov, die-wise. FWIW.

[txpete]

I had a pa 63 and it was a good pistol.the only bullets it wouldn't fire/feed was the silver bear 115 hp's they were just to long for the action.while my daughter was going to college she wanted a small compact pistol so I let her borrow it with a good supply of 95 gr hp's.never got the pistol back:-D :-D .
over the years I have picked up a few PM markarovs.excellent pistols.
for cast bullets I bought the magma 95 gr lrn mould and size .365 works great for target/plinking.
this week I picked up a cz 82 in 9mm makarov.nice pistol great trigger and it is a tad heaver than a PM mak and a bit thicker in the grip as it is a double stack mag 12 rd's.
with the polygonnal bore I don't know yet how it will work with cast but going to give it a try.
range report to follow.
pete

[gwalchmai]

Hello.

I have a PA-63 and have had very good luck with Georgia Arms Shear Power Plus (http://www.georgia-arms.com/shear.htm) ammo. They load a 9x18 95gr Gold Dot and push it out the barrel at 1000fps.

I too have had trouble feeding Silver Bear HPs in the PA, both 115 and 120gr, which feed fine in my Bulgarian Makarov.

[deadguy]

Another pistol to think about is the Polish P64. They are very similar to the PA63, and the same, or slightly lower, in price. From the factory, the recoil spring s vastly undersprung, and the hammer spring is vastly oversprung, but with a change of springs, it is one sweet little pistol. Shoots pleasently and accurately to say the least! However, if you don't re-spring it, it has about a 70 pound double action trigger pull, and the recoil feels like a .44 magnum. Wolff gunsprings has everything you need to fix it cheaply.