M1903 (modifed)

[6.5 mike]

Went to a show in P'cola over the weekend & found what I though to be another 03a3. When I got it home & started to clean her up was when I noticed some differances, got my Joe Poyer book out & found that I had gotten an 1903 (modifed), only bad thing is "bubba" had gotten to it first.
What this is, is the transition model between the 1903 & the 03A3, 1905 3 piece front sight , 03A3 rear (gone), & milled bottom metal. It's in a ramline stock & has been blued, d&ted for a reciever sight (put that on today). Bbl slugs 0.3005/ 0.3095. Still mining copper, but no lead. Dated RA 12-42 on bbl, & the serial number range falls into what is shown in the book.
Any more info would be a great help, TIA. :popcorn:

[Multigunner]

Was this transitional receiver milled for the 03A3 rear sight or was the mounting point added later by welding or some other method?
Or is it just like the 03A3 receiver only marked as a 1903 ?

PS
Sounds like a good find. Pre bubba'ed milsurp rofles allow one to build their own custom sporter or target rifle without guilt or regret. Anything you do should be an improvement.

Of course one should first be sure such a rifle is not a rariety in itself, such as an NRA sporter or the product of a named gunmaker firm.

Awhile back I ran across a thread where collectors were busily tryong to encourage a newbie to "restore" his Emfield sporter, then someone realized it was a rare BSA commercial sporting rifle built on a Enfield action. The rifle came from the factory as a sporting rifle.

[Dutchman]

Serial number? Receiver markings?

What does the rear bridge look like? Is it cut for a 03A3 rear sight?

Dutch

[leadman]

I have one of these also, but mine does not have the sight base on the rear bridge. Has the stamped metal trigger guard. Has the rear sight on the barrel. Barrel date on mine is 1-42.
The stock it was in had been heavily sanded so I put it in a scant stock my buddy gave me. Sure is a good shooter.

Can't remember where it is but there is a site that has the serial number ranges and build dates for these guns. It is possible someone installed a 1903 barrel on a 1903a3 reciever.

Is it a Remington reciever?

[Larry Gibson]

6.5 Mike

If you are referring to "modified" as a model there is no such thing. That term is a collectors term to describe what they hope is a "real" M1903A1. The A1 is simply a configuration designation the M1903 with the "C" stock. Yes some 'A1s were prototypes and a few factory assembled but they are exceedingly rare. Most all of the M1903A1's were arsenal rebuilds, DCM rifles, assembled from DCM sold C stocks and replacement stocks down to unit armorer level. DCM sold M1903A1 rifles from '32-'40 and many were surplused out for sale during the '50s and '60s. The C stocks have been available as replacement parts for many years.

Sounds like you have a nice shooter there, especially if it has a DHT'd receiver and a 4 groove barrel.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

The term "modified" I have seen used to describe the WWII Remington 1903s that had some of the modifications that were later standard on the 1903a3. Like the stamped triggerguard and barrel bands.
I don't know if any of these rifles were made with a 1903a3 receiver and a 1903 barrel and rear sight.
I was reading posts on the CMP website last night and apparrently some of the early Remington 1903 rifles had the bolt with the straight handle, versus the sweptback handle.
Mine had this bolt but I switched it out as the CMP does not recommend firing a rifle with this bolt due to possible metal problems.

I had compiled many websites listing different information for these firearms, but lost it all to a computer crash.

6.5, would like to see pictures of your rifle.

I'm working on an old sporter Smith Corona I bought before I retired. It was in very sad shape. I don't have the funds for a new stock so am doing the best I can with the already modified C stock. Should have many more good years left in it when I am done. I hope.

[bob208]

the remington 03's had a place on the rear bridge that looks like it was starting to be milled for the a3 sight. i don't know what or why. but just about every 42 dated 03 remington has it. i don't know what it is or why it was there but it is right.

[leadman]

The hump is on all of the 1903s. The rear safety locking lug for the bolt travels thru it when the bolt is removed. Not as tall as the rear bridge of a 1903a3 though.

[Dutchman]

If you are referring to "modified" as a model there is no such thing. That term is a collectors term to describe what they hope is a "real" M1903A1.

Incorrectomundo.

There are 4 distinct Remington rifles.

1- 1903 pattern identical to Springfield/Rock Island 1903.
2- 1903(m) so-called modified by the likes of such "collectors" as Lt.Col. Wm. Brophy USAR, Ret. in his seminal research published "The 1903 Springfield".
3- 1903A3
4- 1903A4 snipers

The 03(m) have the same receiver as 03. There is no rear bridge difference from the Springfield 1903.

The 03(m) production occurred, obviously, inbetween 1903 and 03A3. There were simplifications in production to the 03(m) that make it distinct from the 1903*. One of the most obvious is the scalloped lightning cut on each side of the rear sight base. The 03(m) does not have the scalloped lightning cuts. As well as has been noted there were some uses of stamped parts on the 03(m) leading to the full scale use of stampings to replace more costly forgings of the 1903. Front and lower bands were stamped sheet metal same as the 03A3.

*production changes as a result of requests by Remington to the Ordnance Dept. To rifle owners/collectors in 2011 these changes resulted in bone fide variations to the base model. The terms, 1903(m) or 1903(modified) are widely used to differentiate these production variations. To suggest these terms mean nothing because they aren't official USGI designations is doing a huge disservice to readers of this forum who desire factual and current information on their firearm. The discussion of the Remington 1903 and 1903(m) has nothing to do with the 1903A1.

The only way to study these rifles is to observe original production examples and avoid those that have been through rebuilds where parts and spare parts were used and muck up the discussion on originality. Most Remington 1903 and 03(m) production went to England for Lend-Lease.

Production dates and numbers are not quite exact. By March, 1942 03(m) changes were instituted into production but there are overlapping issues such as barrel dates that don't fit.


The first M1903 rifle made by Remington was finished in November, 1941. By December 1941 a total of 1,273 rifles had been produced. Serial numbers as high as 3,365,002 have been observed. Those manufactured after April, 1942 were identified as M1903 (modified). A total of about 350,000 of the Remington M1903 and M1903 (modified) rifles were manufactured. (Brophy pg. 178)

ref: History of U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1903 October 1941-June 1944 written 25 June 1945 by C.A.S. Howlett, Ordnance Dept. (Brophy pgs. 174-177)

6.5 Mike - you indicate a 03A3 rear sight on the rear receiver bridge. That is not a 1903 (m) it's a 03A3. There were no Remington 1903(m) that had the rear bridge rear sight. They all had 1903-type barrel mounted sights. If you supply the serial number and recever markings this can be cleared up much eaiser.

Remington barrel dates can't be nailed down to serial numbers and production dates like Springfield and Rock Island. Plus the fact that loose new barrels can still be found in 2011. As well, the triggerguard attached to the rifle now really can't be used as a means of identifying production model or time period. Lots of people bought milled triggerguards from DCM because they hated the stamped unit.

reference: 1903A1

Subsequently, a pistol grip type stock replaced the straight grip type stock and so modified, the designation was changed to U.S. Rifle, cal. .30, M1903A1. (TM9-1270 Ordnance Maintenance, U.S. Rifles, Caliber .30, M1903, M1903A1, M1903A3, M1903A4. Notice there's no mention of production date, serial numbers or manufacturer to identify a "real" 1903A1.


Dutch

[6.5 mike]

Hi Guys, sorry I didn't get back to you earlier, I'm back on the boat, & have been busy.
Leadman, do you know what the height differance is between the two ramps, this might help narrow down what I have. I hav'nt seen a stock 03 in so long I do'nt remember what the rear ring looks like, this has 2 small flats on the front & rear if that helps any.
Dutchman, I don't remember the s/n, but I will post it when I get home. My wife bought a new camera for our AK trip, I'll get some pics & try to post them then. And you may be right about the bottom metal having been changed, to bad these are not s/n'ed like the mausers, would make things much easier. I didn't know to look for the lightening cuts so will need to check that also. Being this has been "bubba'ed" it may not help to ID it.
Larry, the term "modified" was how it is listed in my book, & yes it's a 4 groove bbl. I'll find out how it shoots when I get back. It did check good with headspace gauges, & I fired 1 round in my back yard ( live outside town) with no problem, easy extraction, measures the same as my rack grade 03A3 case after firing. I have some lee 200 gr pp'ed loaded for the other, will start with them.
Thanks to everyone who answered, this has given me alot to think about while here at work. If you think of anything else I should check for please let me know, my research stuff for this is limited to the one book, & I'm sure does not cover all the aspects of these rifles.

[Dutchman]

Remington Model 1903 in a "scant" stock. As received from CMP. Greek repatriation.

http://images109.fotki.com/v779/photos/4/28344/9865882/03a-vi.jpg

Receiver markings and s/n.

http://images21.fotki.com/v842/photos/4/28344/9865882/03q-vi.jpg

Remington Arms March, 1942.

http://images39.fotki.com/v1287/photos/4/28344/9865882/s4-vi.jpg

My current "shooter". Springfield Model 1903 mfg 1918. Double heat-treat. Type C stock. It is technically and rightfully a M1903A1 since it wears a Type C stock.

According to Springfield Research Service this rifle was smack dab in the middle of a bunch of rifles sent to USMA West Point when new.

http://images58.fotki.com/v156/photos/4/28344/9865882/c1-vi.jpg

Springfield Armory July 1918. The letter A indicated inspection and acceptance of the barrel's condition as it was at the time.

http://images12.fotki.com/v213/photos/4/28344/9865882/c4-vi.jpg

http://images112.fotki.com/v233/photos/4/28344/9865882/c7-vi.jpg

http://images40.fotki.com/v1238/photos/4/28344/9865882/TM912701903Springfield-vi.jpg

The scalloped lightning cut on the rear sight base of a Springfield 1903. Rock Island 1903 also had this cut. The Remington 1903(m) does not. And the eagle eyed reader may notice my Remington 1903 has a (m) rear sight base. Not unusual for Remington production to not adhere to strict protocol. It was war time.

http://images29.fotki.com/v1005/photos/4/28344/9865882/sp04-vi.jpg

http://images47.fotki.com/v1398/photos/4/28344/9865882/s5-vi.jpg

The section E is the scalloped lightning cut.

http://images53.fotki.com/v444/photos/4/28344/9865882/1903_Springfield_1911_Manual-vi.jpg

[6.5 mike]

Dutchman, as always great pics & info. My reciever markings are the same as you show, my s/n is a bit later then yours. My sight bed does not have the cuts. Now I need to check the other bbl to see what it is.
As you pointed out Remington did not always play be the rules, & ,I think, was more trying to put rifles in the hands of our troops at that time using whatever parts where available to them. Just my thoughts.
Whatever way this plays out, 300 for the rifle & 25 for the lyman 57 sme sight ain't a bad price. "Bubba" did get the sight holes drilled just about 1/2 a hole to low on the reciever, had to shim the sight base to bring it back level. I should be used to this by now, just part of the fun,lol. I'm pretty sure I will enjoy working with this one.

[Larry Gibson]

Dutchman

Not "Incorrectomundo at all.

As I stated and you reiterated (as did the OP) the term "modified" is a collectors term. There was no M1903 "modified", (m) or otherwise officially nomenclatured as a model designation of the M1903 rifle. That is just as I stated. You quote;

reference: 1903A1

Quote:
Subsequently, a pistol grip type stock replaced the straight grip type stock and so modified, the designation was changed to U.S. Rifle, cal. .30, M1903A1. (TM9-1270 Ordnance Maintenance, U.S. Rifles, Caliber .30, M1903, M1903A1, M1903A3, M1903A4.

Notice there is no "modified or (m) used there and the nomeclature is M1903A1 just as I stated.

Nice picures of your rifles.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

I took some pictures of my 1903a3 sporter barrel but the new GunKote is pretty shiny. You can see the extra metal for the sight on the rear bridge though.
Then I took some pictures of my Remington 1903. No lightening cuts on the sight base. This is in a scant stock my buddy gave me. also the lone stock is what the Remington came in.

[6.5 mike]

Leadman, thanks for the pics. Mine does not have the mount for a 03A3 sight, just the bolt tunnel, my mistake. Also his shows a vent hole on the right side of the reciever, mine is only on the left like the 03A3, I do remember reading something about this in Poyer's book about when it was changed to one side.
"Bubba" ground alot off the rear sight bed, but I know there are no cuts in it, the bolt has been forged & has tool marks still on it. The reciever has been polished & blued. I do'nt think they ground any on the reciever, but will check when I get home. Bad part is I wo'nt be there till the 13th when I get away from here.

[Dutchman]

As I stated and you reiterated (as did the OP) the term "modified" is a collectors term. There was no M1903 "modified", (m) or otherwise officially nomenclatured as a model designation of the M1903 rifle.

Nobody said there was. The (m) issue is one of your troll topics. The original poster used the term correctly, as common vernacular. You seem to prefer educating people on what it isn't. I prefer to educate them on what it is.

If I may suggest, in the future... When someone asks what isn't a Remington 1903(m) then you belly up to the bar and have at it.

Btw..... Don't let me ever catch you using the word, "Trapdoor", in the same sentence as.... "Springfield" [smilie=s:. I'll put on my LarryG hat (though it's way too big) and lecture you endlessly :).



If you are referring to "modified" as a model there is no such thing. That term is a collectors term to describe what they hope is a "real" M1903A1.

This is your comment that is incorrectomundo. You mix two issues: Remington 1903 series and 1903A1 as if there was some confusion or relation between them. Try and separate those two areas and further discussion on these two topics will be much clearer to everyone.

Nobody (knowledgeable) calls Remington 1903(m) rifles this particular way to denote anything having to do with a 1903A1 rifle.

However, if a Remington 1903 were in a Type C stock it would then, rightfully, be denoted as a 1903A1. The only, singular, criteria separating a 1903 from 1903A1 is the Type C stock. A 1903/05 rifle manufactured in 1910 wearing a Type C stock would be a 1903A1. The U.S. military did not make a distinction as to date of manufacture or serial number range. That's a <gulp> collector thing.

Have a happy 4th. I have deep fryer duty for 6 young teenage girls this evening. My granddaughters and friends are having a slumber party and they love my deep fried chicken wings.

Dutch -

8th generation great-grandson of Corporal Henry Garvin, 8th & 9th Pennsylvania Brigade & Continental Army 1776-1783 and

8th generation great-grandson of James McGinnis, under Capt. Ambrose Madison's Company of foot in the Regiment of Volunteers Guards at the Barracks in Albemarle County, Virginia 1779, and

9th generation great-grandson of John Henshaw, 8th Virginia Militia Regiment, Continental Army, and

9th generation great-grandson of Sebastian Heeter, Bedford County, Pennsylvania Militia 1784-1785, and

9th generation great-grandson of Johan Nicolaas Scholl, 3rd Batt. Northampton Co, Pennsylvania Militia....

[Larry Gibson]

Dutchman

"Nobody (knowledgeable) calls Remington 1903(m) rifles this particular way to denote anything having to do with a 1903A1 rifle.

However, if a Remington 1903 were in a Type C stock it would then, rightfully, be denoted as a 1903A1. The only, singular, criteria separating a 1903 from 1903A1 is the Type C stock. A 1903/05 rifle manufactured in 1910 wearing a Type C stock would be a 1903A1. The U.S. military did not make a distinction as to date of manufacture or serial number range. That's a <gulp> collector thing."

Now isn't that exactly the same point I make in my 1st post here (#5)? We are obviously in agreement. BTW; "trapdoor" is a common term used for all US M1873/M1879/M1884 rifles and carbines. It is not used to denote a seperate model as does the term M1903(M) used by collectors as an attempt to identify a seperate model.

Since we are in obvious agreement apparently your continued disdain for me is causing you to continue this non-argument. I do not care to engage in this discussion with you any further. I have no disdain or heartburn with you what so ever. If you use the ignore feature of this forum and put me on ignore then you won't get upset and confused when I post something. That would be more pleasant for you, me and everyone else.

Best wishes to you and yours on this 4th of July weekend.

Larry Gibson

[Shiloh]

Sounds like a good find. Pre bubba'ed milsurp rofles allow one to build their own custom sporter or target rifle without guilt or regret. Anything you do should be an improvement.


That is what I am looking for. I'll put a Lyman micrometer sight on it and restore as best as practicle, but guilt free.

Shiloh

[Larry Gibson]

Shiloh

That's a good way to go to build a "shooter". A few years back a guy gave me a stripped DHT receiver with a sewer pipe barrel on it. It had already been D&T for both a Redfield scope base and a Lyman receiver sight. The holes were even in the right location? The price was right so when I found a Boyd's M1903A3 stock at a gunshow for a very good price I decided to build a National Match Type II as pictured and described in J. C. Harrison's The Collectable '03 except with the M1903 action instead of the M1903A3 action.

I already had the long slide 1/4 moa adjustment M48 Lyman receiver sight and found the rest of the parts in excellent or new condition at gunshows and on the internet. I put a new RA 9-43 'A3 barrel on it and finish reamed the chamber to minimum specs with a match reamer. This turned out to be an excellent "shooter" with both jacketed match bullets and cast bullets. Was a fun project to build and even more fun casting and loading for and, of course, shooting.

Larry Gibson

[6.5 mike]

Larry, now that i've seen your pics I may be rethinking how I what to re-build mine. What height front sight did you use? The rear one I have is a lyman 57 sme with the coin slot adjusters, 25 bucks & had to make the screws. I had already planned on using a globe front, just not sure how high or which one.
Going back to a military type stocks will hide alot of the "bubba" damage on the rear sight bed.

[Larry Gibson]

I came to the height above the center of the bore by using a high blade front sight and fling it down so with a 6 o'clock hold on an SR-1 target at 100 yards with M72 ammo I hit center of the bull. I had the rear sight 5 moa up from bottom (either bottom of adjustment or with slide bottoming out on rear receiver bridge). This then gave sufficient adjustment up or down for 100 yard shooting with any ammo which worked out fine for my M48 rear sight.
. I suggest you do something similar to get the correct heigth of the front sight for your rifle.

The front sight I used is a Lyman 17AUG with the dovetail sides thinned down to the width of the front sight base. The front base is a M1903A3 base I file down so the center of the aperture is 1.2" above the center of the bore on my rifle based on the intitial zeroing with the blade front sight. I soft soldered the Lyman sight to the front sight base for a permanent fix.

You can still find C stocks or the Boyd replacement shocks don't take a lot of fitting. Nice thing about a "shooter" is it can be glass/pillar bedded also. To me the C stocks are more ergonomically "shootable". My rifle also has the "quick lock" and a M22 checkered buttplate. I've shot a few 600 yard matches with this rifle (by the rules you get put into "match rifle" catagory). I don't win the match (have won the master classification twice) but I have all those space gun shooter looking over their shoulder.........

It sure shoots the 311299 quite well also.

Larry Gibson

[6.5 mike]

Thank you Larry, your last post gives me alot to think about as the more I look at you pics, the more I think I'll go this route with mine. I took a WAG that you had done the "tall blade" & file to POI thing for starters. I also thought the AUG base would work filing to fit the base.
Like you, unless I'm restoring a firearm, I like a pistol grip stock much better. And making the "space gun" crowd take notice is fun, does not take long for them to see that 5 45-70's in one ragged hole from a 1874 sharps makes a spotting scope usless at 100, [smilie=l:. Off to look for parts.

[Shiloh]

Nice Build Larry!!

I'll be in touch when I find a pre-bubba'd rifle. A good sporterized rifle would be acceptaqble as well but would prefer to keep it as .30-06.

Shiloh

[Multigunner]

"quick lock" and a M22 checkered buttplate. I've shot a few 600 yard matches with this rifle (by the rules you get put into "match rifle" catagory). I don't win the match (have won the master classification twice) but I have all those space gun shooter looking over their shoulder.........

It sure shoots the 311299 quite well also.

Larry Gibson

I'd noticed that some vintage rifle match rules prohibit use of anything not available when the rifles were in service, like glass bedding or steel pillar bedding.

I suppose a one piece firing pin conversion would also be prohibited?

[Larry Gibson]

Most of those are "local" rules. Some say no mods, other no external mods and some don't care.

The whole striker assembly is easily replaced if there is a problem with the quick lock. However, the matches I usually shoot are belly matches under NRA/CMP HP rules. The M1903 in any configuration is no longer a service rifle and must be used in "match rifle" catagory so the bedding sights, quick lock etc. of the replicant M1903A3 National Match Type II rifle are all legal there. In milsurp matches I shoot my M96 6.5 Swede, or my M39 Finn &.62x54R or my M1903A1 '06 depending on the 'rules" and my mood.

Larry Gibson

[6.5 mike]

Ok guys,after spending the last couple days fighting with 2 cameras only to be told my images are to large I'll do this caveman style.

Rifles s/n is 3313171, it does have the correct Remington proof marks including punch marks. The bolt is stamped on top of the root, BF 47, (Bonney Forge & Tool Works), not sure if the 47 is a date or what, also has punch mark. 7 inchs forward of the receiver ring is the #429, have no clue what this is. All the marks on the bottom & sides of the receiver are numbers in either a circle or square.

Did shoot it on friday, front sight is way to high with the lyman blade that is in it. Held at the bottom of the blade & was still low at 50 yds by 4 inchs. Using a light red dot load did'nt help any but did show some promise, trying to group with pp'ed lee 200 grs. Stock fit is'nt helping either, real tight in the stock where the rear sight base is. And with the bolt handle bent it wo'nt fit in my 03a3 stock to see if this would help the shooting.

Any more info anyone else has would be a big help, TIA. [smilie=b:

[leadman]

If your load is less than 13grs of RD this might be the problem. Or it might not. I have found it is difficult to sight in with the issue sights with too low of a velocity load.

I use the 600 yard setting on my 1903a3 Rem. for the 200 yard target. My load is 19grs of SR4759 with a 170gr 311041.

Do you have another bolt you can try in your gun so you can swap stocks? I know there could be a headspace issue but I bought a NOS replacement bolt for my 1903 Rem. and it was perfect. I then swapped bolts among 3 of my 1903a3s and 1903, all were good.

The plastic stocks aren't known for the best accuracy or durability. My son had a Ramline split behind the tang on his K98.

[6.5 mike]

Good idea, leadman. I didn't think about trying the bolt from my 03a3. I know ramline stocks ain't worth much, just what came with it. The problem with the front sight is, it has a lyman blade instead of the issue one, it's higher also checking it against a issue blade. I may take the blade off & use the riser as a real broad post, can't be much worst then as it is,lol. :veryconfu
The load shoots pretty good in the 03a3, may just use it to fire form 50 cases for this one, then try 16 grs of 2400 & the lee 160 tl for starters. Back to the boat soon, all this may have to wait till I get back. Thanks again for the idea.