Savage 30-06 Can't close bolt with cast.

[Atakawow]

So I made up a batch of 20 using 150gr casts. Out of the 20 rounds, five of them prevent the bolt to be closed. Comparing side by side with a good round, I could not figure out the problem.

Any suggestions? Here is a picture of the rounds. The left round is a sample of the 15 good ones. The right is a sample of the 5 bad ones.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa91/atakawow/IMG_20110628_162723.jpg

[Harter66]

I ran into that in my old 110. It was the thick necks of GI match brass that gave me trouble. Getting the bolt closed was easy, I broke an extractor getting 1 out. I had the same issue w a Savage 110 308.

[Atakawow]

I ran into that in my old 110. It was the thick necks of GI match brass that gave me trouble. Getting the bolt closed was easy, I broke an extractor getting 1 out. I had the same issue w a Savage 110 308.

The 20 round batch all loaded with R-P brass. Same problem occurs with my brother's Mossberg ATR when chambering those five bad rounds.

[Blammer]

looks like your shoulder is not pushed back enough. Happened in the resizing process.

or as the expander ball was pulled out through the neck it "lengthened" the shoulder or changed the angle a bit.

[CPL Lou]

What Blammer said.

[Atakawow]

looks like your shoulder is not pushed back enough. Happened in the resizing process.

or as the expander ball was pulled out through the neck it "lengthened" the shoulder or changed the angle a bit.

Any suggestion on how to correct this problem?

[fishhawk]

lube the inside of the necks would help.

[Ben]

What is the diameter of the cast bullets that you're seating in the necks of those cases ?

Ben

[bearcove]

Full length size a little at a time, without the neck expander, till bolt closes. Thats your headspace. Lube the inside of the case necks with graphite and then size with expander, it should slip through easier. Once the die is set up just size. After that you should have them uniform and can go back to neck sizing.

[plainsman456]

It's easy to remedy,just screw the seating die down a little.
That shoulder does look a tad long.

[Blammer]

I'd lube the inside of the neck with a stiff bristle brush and some graphite.

Will "lube" and "polish" it a bit too. That will help the expander ball exit easier.

[Atakawow]

What is the diameter of the cast bullets that you're seating in the necks of those cases ?

Ben

.310 gas checked.

[GRUMPA]

Well just that I'm curious here. Did you at any time chamber those when empty? Almost sounds like you got second hand brass. In other words came from an unknown gun in the same caliber. Just from the looks of the 2 they don't appear to be from the same manufacturer, could be wrong but the 2 don't look the same too me.

Appears that the 1 on the right has burrs at the case mouth, I ALWAYS de-burr rifle case mouths. 1 method I used to do is to mark a bad case with a soft grease pencil and look at the wear marks after inserting it into the chamber.

And last but not least, do you own a micrometer? A really good pair of calipers? Check the case neck size. Some brass is thicker in that area and when using a larger than normal dia. bullet can and will make the neck of the case to big.

Just my 2 cents worth

[bhn22]

The one on the right looks like the case mouth is hitting something. Do you trim your brass? Also, the crimp appears to be different between the two, but it might just be the lighting, too.

[Atakawow]

Well, I think I may have found the cure.

I got a few empty brass and tried to chamber those. About half would not close the bolt. I ran those through the sizing die once more. This time, however, I screwed down the die body by quite a bit. I also lubed the **** out of those brass. Voila, they all chamber and the bolt closes with little effort. :-)

[Atakawow]

The one on the right looks like the case mouth is hitting something. Do you trim your brass? Also, the crimp appears to be different between the two, but it might just be the lighting, too.

I do trim my brass. The crimp looks different due to the lighting. These have just enough crimp to take away the bell and a little more.

[Ben]

So, if I understand .......your original problem was caused by you putting cases into your chamber than had not been fully full length re-sized ?

Ben

[462]

Motor mica is another material that is commonly used to lube the inside of case mouths. Dip the mouth in the mica, run a nylon brush into the case and size. It substantially reduces the amount of resistance as the sizing ball/button/olive passes through the mouth.

[Harter66]

As an extended comment,I have 4 06's. 700BDL,760,03A3,and the 110. Each 1 has a quirk that will not allow them to share brass,the 760 has to be full lengthed to go back in, though that brass will go into the 03.

That full length sizing pays off.

I'll add that my 110 will show a half a grain of case weight on the target, it also will show up 0.1 gn load changes.

[MT Gianni]

When you shoot them save an unfired load and compare your fired cases to your re sized ones. Measurements will differ but be wary of setting your brass back too far as separation will occur rapidly.

[tomme boy]

It looks like you only did a partial FL size. Some people try to do this with a FL die. Some times it works and others it does not. What happens is, the outside of the case is sized down a little. As this happens, there is only one place for the brass to go. UP. Your shoulder gets pushed forward. Now the case will either not chamber, or is very hard to chamber. When yo FL size the whole case, that is why the necks grow longer and you have to trim.

If someone wants to neck size, get the right die to do it. Not bashing anyone. I had to learn the hard way also.

[giz189]

Well, I think I may have found the cure.

I got a few empty brass and tried to chamber those. About half would not close the bolt. I ran those through the sizing die once more. This time, however, I screwed down the die body by quite a bit. I also lubed the **** out of those brass. Voila, they all chamber and the bolt closes with little effort. :-)

Hope you didn't screw the die body down to far and shove the shoulder back so far as to increase headspace. If you did it will show up in the first few rounds fired probably. God luck.

[Hang Fire]

Were these all once fired in the same rifle?

Hard to tell from just pics smetimes, but.

Just me, but looks like the round onh the left was not neck sized as far down as one on the right.

OTOH, the shoulder on the RH round appears to be higher than the LH one.

[geargnasher]

Were these all once fired in the same rifle?

Hard to tell from just pics smetimes, but.

Just me, but looks like the round onh the left was not neck sized as far down as one on the right.

OTOH, the shoulder on the RH round appears to be higher than the LH one.

The sizing marks on the neck look the same to me, too, like they were both sized at the same setting, but the case on the right was fired in a gun with more headspace. The shoulder hasn't even been touched on either case.

FL sizing is in order, then segregate the brass to the one gun and partially size next time. FL size again when they get hard to chamber again, usually in two or three more firings after FL sizing.

Gear

[Atakawow]

The sizing marks on the neck look the same to me, too, like they were both sized at the same setting, but the case on the right was fired in a gun with more headspace. The shoulder hasn't even been touched on either case.

FL sizing is in order, then segregate the brass to the one gun and partially size next time. FL size again when they get hard to chamber again, usually in two or three more firings after FL sizing.

Gear

Gear,

That is exactly the case. I got these brass from another fella. During sizing, I did not screw the die down far enough. I should have caught the problem earlier as I didn't feel much of any resistant on the down stroke.

After carefully reading the Lee's instructions, I set the FL die the way it was intended. As it turns out, my original die setting was about three turns too high from the proper setting. Now the sized brass are chambering very smoothly.

AT

[blackthorn]

As mentioned above, beware of "over-sizing"! Take one piece of fired brass and back the die out a good ways. Size the brass and try it in your gun. Don't fit?--good! Turn your die in just a bit and size the same brass again--retry in the gun. Repeat the above until the brass will just chamber with some felt resistance. Turn the die in just a hair more, size the brass and it should chamber easily. You have now sized your brass to fit YOUR firearm. I emphisize YOUR firearm because it is doutful that brass will chamber properly in another gun! Have a great day!

[Char-Gar]

My thoughts and suggestions.

1. Buy a Wilson case gauge. With it you can set your sizing die and know you are producing ammo with correct headspace and case length. I have one for every caliber I reload.

2. Deburr the inside and outside of the case mouths. Your bad round looks like it needs it.

3. Lose that pull through expanding ball. It can cause all sorts of problems. Remove it and size your cases. Then use an M die to expand the necks to receive the bullets. Use a Lee or Wilson punch and base to remove the spent primers.

Do 1,2, and 3 above and your case related problems will go away.

I am totally amazed at the folks who come to this board with issues, that don't know how to adjust their dies and won't take time to read the instructions that come with them.

[tomme boy]

Your chamber on your gun is all the case gauge yo need.

[Char-Gar]

Tomme... Every ammunition manufacturer on earth uses gauges multiple times to make ammo that works. Why would a fellow who makes his own not need a gauge?

In the case of the original post, the use of a Wilson gauge would have quickly revealed the problem with the maladjusted sizing die. The OP's rifle told him his ammo had problems, but he didn't know the cause. Drop the sized case or loaded round in the gauge and instantly he would have know there was a problem and what it was.

[Harter66]

1 of my 06's has fat shoulders and I do use a FL die to neck size . It is a separate die used only to size the necks as far as that fat shouldered rifle will allow w/o touching or just touching the shoulder (in any event it doesn't move it) , that allows me to size the necks just a little over 2/3 down the neck. I've a special rod for a Universal decapper that does the same job the M die does. My method allowed me to improve my 110s net proformance.

[tomme boy]

You do not need a seperate gauge. The chamber on your own gun is a gauge. If the case was sized right, this would not happen. Think about it, the cases did not chamber. The chamber said the cases were not sized right. Same thing as a seperate gauge.

Now if the cases were sized to this chamber, it would chamber easy. If not sized enough, they won't chamber. Size them too much and they will still chamber. They will still fall into a case gauge if sized too much. Big deal. Factory cases are sized too much to begin with anyway.

If people would learn how to actally set up their equipment, they will have longer case life and better performing ammo at the same time. I actually like to have cases fired out of another gun to set my dies. I set my FL die to just bump the shoulder. The main problem I run into is thick necks after about 20 reloadings. I have never lost any cases to seperation. But, some calibers are worse than others on case growth. I have gone over 30 reloadings on 308 win. When the necks start to get thick, I pitch them. I don't need to turn them. I have plenty to replace them.

Sorry for the long post. But this is a pet peeve of mine.

[geargnasher]

You do not need a seperate gauge. The chamber on your own gun is a gauge. If the case was sized right, this would not happen. Think about it, the cases did not chamber. The chamber said the cases were not sized right. Same thing as a seperate gauge.

Now if the cases were sized to this chamber, it would chamber easy. If not sized enough, they won't chamber. Size them too much and they will still chamber. They will still fall into a case gauge if sized too much. Big deal. Factory cases are sized too much to begin with anyway.

If people would learn how to actally set up their equipment, they will have longer case life and better performing ammo at the same time. I actually like to have cases fired out of another gun to set my dies. I set my FL die to just bump the shoulder. The main problem I run into is thick necks after about 20 reloadings. I have never lost any cases to seperation. But, some calibers are worse than others on case growth. I have gone over 30 reloadings on 308 win. When the necks start to get thick, I pitch them. I don't need to turn them. I have plenty to replace them.

Sorry for the long post. But this is a pet peeve of mine.

Good post.

Chamber gauges are set to SAAMI minimum specs, which is fine if you're making ammo to fit several different, but "in spec" guns. One of the great advantages of the handloader is that he can make ammo custom fit one individual gun. I have a case gauge for every gun I own, permanently attached. If I make ammo to fit that particular gauge, my accuracy is better. I don't handload for other people except a couple of family members and I always make it to fit their guns.

Gear

[ButterNutZ]

your bullets might be too fat, measure ogive diameter of one that fits and one that don't fit. Had same problem with some of mine. Make sure the mold closed nice and tight before you cast.

[Ozarklongshot]

Set your size die in 1/8 turn at a time and gently test chamber the empty brass between each adjustment till the bolt closes easily, might also check COAL to make sure your not wedging the boolit back into the case mouth causing some lead displacement that will have same effect

[Harter66]

A gauge is only as accurate as the tool that cut it and the go no-go gauges that checked them. As I mentioned I've an 06' that has to be full lengthed to feed itself and another w/a fat shoulder. A 1st cut gauge probably would gauge all 3,the last cut gauge would most likely reject all of the neck sized 03' brass. "We" have the luxury of being able to load an "improved" cartridge in guns that are well worn and long of head space,see dozens of posts regarding 303s and belted mags. O A L gauges are great too, unless you have a 30 that will take a 318 nose at correct length or leases cut/worn to except full diameter j-word heavies,1 of my 06's is so cut.

Im a truck gun kinda guy, if it shoots well or can be loaded to shoot well who cares what it looks like,as a result of this I have a number of special rifles, an 8x57 that's more like 58,a 762-39 that's more like 8-39 , an 06' that jackets wont both touch lands and stay in the case.

Gear you've nailed it, I hope this doesn't grind, but rather clarify.

[Char-Gar]

Tomme... Just this little bit and then I will let it go. I agree that all to many folks don't know how to properly adjust their dies and are too lazy to read the instructions. That is one of my pet peeves also.

But, let me continue in my praise of the Wilson gauge.

I know how to adjust dies and have done so for 50 years and 98% of the time, that is all it takes. But I have had dies that are improperly made. I have a older Pacific 30-06 FL size die, that when adjusted properly to the press, shoves the shoulder back enough to create a headspace issue. The continued use of this die would produce a case separation in a few firings. You would not know this by looking at the case and it would feed and fire just fine. You would not know there is a problem until the case let go.

I use the Wilson gauge to adjust the die to produce a case with proper headspace. I would not know the die is too short if all I relied on was the rifle chamber.

There there is the issue of shell holders. For a die to be properly adjusted, both the die and shell holder have to be in spec. From time to time shell holders are sold and produced that are either too high or too low.

A case that is too long won't chamber, so in this case the rifles chamber is all you need. But a case with the shoulder shoved back too far will chamber and fire. So a rifle chamber isn't always all you need.

Rifle chambers also vary and often the headspace will increase as the bolt lugs seat or set back. This is why some rifles develop headspace issues over their service life. We know this can be helped by sizing the case to fit the longer chamber and not setting the shoulder back to create headspace with the ultimate case separation. Just like the die that is too short, you may not discovered the long chamber until the case turns loose.

Again the Wilson gauge can help here. Take a case fired in the chamber, size it enough without touching the shoulder for the case to slip into the gauge. At a glance you can see if your chamber is too long, or just right.

Any chamber, die, shell holder or gauge is only as good as the folks who made it. L.E. Wilson has been in the business of making precision tools for the handloader for a very long time and they don't produce bad stuff.

Anyway..to each their own, but have been using the Wilson gauges for 50 years now and they have caught numerous potential problems before they became a real problem. There are several generations of precision shooters who have also found them to be very helpful.

The fellow that doesn't want such a gizmo should keep his money in his pocket. But there is no need to trash such a useful tool that can and has prevent many, many reloading mishaps.

Oh yes.. As far as turning the sizing die in a little and checking the case in the chamber. This has merit, but also a fly or two in the ointment. In order to really feel the case in the chamber, you must strip the bolt of the spring. Also if it is a claw type extractor, you can remove the bolt, place the case on the bolt face and under the extractor and with care insert the bolt back in the rifle and into the chamber. This will give you a very reliable feel.

If you have a push feed rifle where the extractor snaps over the case rim at the last moment as the case shoulder hits the forward end of the chamber, the feel is much less reliable due to the pressure needed.

So I am convinced that the Wilson gauge is a very good way of knowing your chamber length and adjusting you die to fit. It is OK if others hold different opinions and do things different ways. But this isn't my first time at the Rodeo..been here many many times and wore the road smooth to the National Matches when most of the guys on this board were just a gleam in their parents eyes. To each their own..read my disclaimer below. I am not trying to convince anybody to do anything. Just sharing my knowledge and perspectives..das all.

[dbldblu]

I actually like to have cases fired out of another gun to set my dies. I set my FL die to just bump the shoulder.

You and I think alike. A fired case that won't fit is a valuable commodity. I have vertical reference lines drawn on my full length dies for each particular rifle.

[HangFireW8]

Either a gauge or rifle chamber will tell you when a case is oversized.

A gauge will also tell you when a case is undersized. A chamber will not (until it is too late, anyway).

I could get along without a case gauge (I use the old Stoney Point system), but I wouldn't want to.

I also index my dies.

[Rockydog]

I mate my shellholders and die sets and try not to mix and match them. After I get a die adjusted for a particular rifle I measure the distance between the shell holder and the sizing die with a feeler gauge. I write this dimension inside the die case with a permanent marker along with which rifle it's for. Makes setting the die very easy when it's been moved for another rifle or mounted in a different press. As long as that particular shellholder and die are mated the the cases should turn out to be sized exactly right. RD

[Doby45]

Every piece of secondhand brass should be FL sized the first time you process it. I only have a single 30-06 rifle so when I FL size my brass the first time it puts it back to SAAMI specs like new brass. Now once I have fired it the first time in MY rifle I will only neck size it from that time on. By the way it is a Savage 111 so being a bolt gun neck sizing only is perfect.

Now when I load 223 I always FL size it because it is being shot from an AR, but if I had an AR and a bolt 223 then I would segregate the brass between the two platforms.

Seems like the OPs original problem was simply not using the FL sizing die properly.