.38 S&W bullets

[jonk]

Anyone have a suggestion on this? The nominal diameter for the .38 Smith and Wesson is .361". Originally a heel based bullet, I suppose. No one makes them that I can find, either commercially or as a mold. And indeed, the bore on my 38/200 slugs at .362".

Using a .365" Makarov bullet is one option, but they are all in the light range and I'd rather go for something heavier. Plus I don't know as it would fit into the cylinder when seated, and might bind in the die. I could order a Lee swager to take it down to .361 or .362, but that doesn't speak to the fatness issue; plus if the original WAS heel based, I'm not sure that even a .361" PB projectile would fit in the cylinder once seated in the brass.

Another thought would be to tape the .357 mold and try for a fat one.

Any personal experience?

[onceabull]

jonk: not from personal exp,but perhaps worth a looksee...Western Bullets out of Missoula,Mt offers two designs purportedly for 38 S&W (lyman 36864,and H&G # 512) It's been mentioned elsewhere that he is sometimes willing to sell unsized,unlubed examples,which might be needed in the example at hand.... Good luck, Onceabull

[45 2.1]

http://www.neihandtools.com/catpages/mold_pg7.htm

Mold #169A by board member oksmle. It is a very good mold.

[KCSO]

My 1892 Ideal tool casts a 160 gr. RNFB lead bullet with one grease groove of 360 dia. A Lee 158 RN mould beagled out to cast a 360 bullet works fine in my vintage revolvers and loads just fine in the old tong tool. The older guns had a 360 bore, but all the guns after about 1930 seem to have a 358/9 bore. My 38 S and W Owls head shoots just fine with a 358.

[Bret4207]

The 38 S+W uses a regular style boolit, not a heel style. Lyman still lists a 195 gr design in 358 cal that should work for the 38/200 load.

[Hip's Ax]

I have been tempted to suggest a group buy Lee 6 banger for the 38 S&W but was going to wait until I returned home in early February to do so. Something along the line of a 35864 but that will drop at 0.364" or something suitable. I bought a couple of hundred 35864's from Western but they are sized at 0.358" and not available from Western any larger. Haven't tried any of them yet, also bought some H&G 512's from Western that are 0.360" but they are not a classic looking 38 S&W shape so even if they do work when the time comes I already don't care for them just because they look "funny".

[Four Fingers of Death]

Cast Bullet Engineering in Sydney makes great moulds and I have been told he also makes a mould or two for the 38S&W. I have a little Colt Police Positive and am keen to get something organised. His biggest mould is a four banger and they are well made out of brass. I'll scour his catalogue later when I have more time. All of his moulds are on his site. Jim is a good man to deal with and will supply top punch and sizing die at the same time if needed.

[Buckshot]

..............jonk , what pistol are you reloading for? I don't know if it's common to the design, but I have a Lyman 35863 four cav that drops a 158gr WC cast in pure lead that's .363". I'll be at work the next 3 days so won't hit the computer often, but If you'd like to try some I can send some your way.

Another thought is to try some of the 148gr HBWC's the various bullet manufacturers offer. They're swaged and very soft and very well may shoot in your pistol. They are not very expensive at all. I've also cast the Lee 358-148WC (6 cavity mould) out of pure lead and they shoot pretty good in 2 Victory model S&W's I have. The mould drops them 'as cast' close to .359".

...................Buckshot

[j4570]

I have an Enfield No.2 and have the same problem, need something bigger than
0.360 (I did slug the bore, just don't have it around right now). I'd love to do a group buy on a 6 banger, and have a few of the NEI 169A bullets to try (just loaded them last week). This has been about an 11 year endeavor for me, I just almost never shoot the Enfield, but next trip to the range (probably end of the month), I want to give them a try.

Just so eveyone knows, Fiocchi is offering 380 MK II ammo now, I ordered two boxes from Graf's but it's the ligther load (178gr???) and not the 200gr. It's not cheap (like $28 a box). Magtech also offers ammo, and it shoots ok, just way low in my Enfield as it's a 148 or 158gr bullet, but fairly reasonable at $15 a box or so.

I never had any luck with 38/357 commerical produced bullets, either lead or jacketed, though I did not try wadcutters.

So, I'd love to do a six banger LEE of a design that works, but if the NEI works for me, I'm ok with buying it sometime, and probably wouldn't take my chances with a LEE even if it was a 6 banger. I'd also be ok with buying the NEI bullets from someone for a fair price.

[Will]

Many years ago I bought a 358480 to load some 38SW. It drops about .361 and if I remember right 3.5gr unique made a good load. I no longer load for the SW but will cast up some and send them to you if you want to try them.

Will

[9.3X62AL]

My first ventures with the Webley-Enfield DAO were made with Speer HBWC's, and they did pretty well--just low on the target, like that mentioned above. I did some dimensions checks, and the throats on the Webley ran .362"-.363". I then Beagled my Lyman #358430 (195 grain blunt RN), and the best it would do was about .361". I gave those a try, and they did all right group-wise, with the hits corresponding to point-of-aim better than the 148 HBWCs.....but not as accurate.

Next in line were some of the NEI 169A, samples from a board member. These shot VERY well from the Webley "as cast", lubed without die contact in a Makarov (.365") sizer. A S&W M&P found its way into the gun safe, and its throats were all .363". I know a clue when I see one, and found a Lyman H&I die of that same dimension. I ran the rest of the NEI #169A's and some RCBS 100 grain Makarov castings through the .363" die, and tried these in both revolvers. The #169A's did very well in both revolvers, ESPECIALLY the S&W--shot right to the sights at 25 yards with 3.0 grains of Unique, and 2.5" groups. This load might be over the top for lighter top breaks or small-framed revolvers. The Makarov boolits did decent groups, just quite low relative to the sights.

[KirbyAUS]

Guys,
I'm lucky & lazy.
My Enfield shoots 4" groups @ 25 yds with a .357 diameter 158gn lrn.
Average 600fps.

Adequate for my needs.
You may want to just go out and try some in yours.

Kirby.

[j4570]

I tried 0.357 RN 158 gr, Speer and Hornady, both were horrible.

The best shooting was the Canadian surplus stuff they sold in the 1980's here in the US. I have a few precious rounds left (maybe 15-20). It was boxer primed, FMJ ammo. And shot to point of aim.

I was too young to buy pistol ammo mail order then, my dad bought a small amount from someone. The pistols (Enfield No.2's) were 3 for $99 or something like that. I remember going with him to pick them up at the dealer.

One of the first pistols I ever shot. I shot at some tin cans we found in the woods that my dad set up while we were hunting. I hit a couple out of probably 12 shots.

They are extremely hard to master and shoot accurately. The DAO is difficult.

Later when I turned 21, he gave me one of them, I guess the one I have was indeed my first modern pistol (I did have a Black Powder Remington Clone)!

[hawk223]

I know the round is spec'd at .361 in the Lyman manual but that size is more than a tight fit in the cylinder on my Enfield No 2 Mk 1**. I use a Lee 158 gr SWC and size it to .358 and it works great for me. The gun is a double action only but if you pull the trigger slowly you will find a let off point where you can actually shoot decent groups from. Also the original spec for the round was 200 gr but they lowered it. I bought a box of Rem 147 gr RN for $25/50. I then bought some starline brass and started casting for this round. Now it is in the range of $2-3/50.

Now 38 special brass is easier to come by which I believe could be trimmed to make 38 s&w which is what I will likely do if I ever need brass again.

[j4570]

Hawk,

38 Special Brass trimmed doesn't work too well, depends on the brass. But you have to cut so much off, you can end up in the tapered body portion of some 38 brass (unless it was wadcutter brass). Ask me how I know:???:
The head is sized different too.

I've found the let off spot too, but once in a while it fools you and goes off a little early, but it does work well. I actually cut a single action sear notch in mine (and have a spare original hammer too, in case I want to return it to original).

I've shot a lot of the Remington (well, maybe 4-6 boxes over the years). It wasn't that expensive 10-12 years ago, like $12-13 a box locally. I bought some at gun shows cheap too. I have all the brass I'll probably need.

Mine's not in the best of shape either, so it's probably needing a boolit the large size.

My fiocchi ammo should be here this week. I wonder if I have any Remington left to take a picture of various rounds????

Jason

[9.3X62AL]

Starline makes 38 S&W brass now, and it's reasonably priced. The loaded ammo is obscenely expensive when found locally.

[jonk]

Hmm. I don't own a 6 banger yet for any of the guns I shot a LOT, and probalby will hold off on this one- but if we did do it, I think about a .363 heel based bullet would be best, to allow proper seating.......hmm.

In the meantime, I will try some of the commercially available bullets listed above. I thank those who have offered to send me samples, I'll hold off for now- not doing much shooting in the cold anyhow.

[Leftoverdj]

Old PPC trick for shooting DAO. Super glue a pencil eraser behind the trigger and shape it with a file to be a trigger stop just short of letoff. Round it so an additional pound pressure will compress it enough for letoff.

I don't have anything really suitable in the 200 grain range, but my older Lyman moulds mostly drop way fat. Chances are excellent that any of the older moulds that are nominally .358 will drop .360 or more.

[floodgate]

jonk:

As a reminder, the .38 S & W does NOT use a heel-base bullet like the old .38 Colt Short and Long. After the Russian inspectors browbeat S & W into the .44 "Russian" for their purchase of the big No. 3 revolver, with all the grease grooves INSIDE a somewhat larger case than the old outside-lubed, heel-type . 44 "American", S & W liked the results so much that they went on to develop their .38 in the same pattern, bore reduced from .375" or so to .361" and the case enlarged to cover the whole bullet. The Colt followed a different trajectory, and only went to the reduced .354" - 357" bore with inside-lubed bullets in the military's .38 Long around 1900, where it was almost immediately beaten out by S & W's .38 Special (introduced as the ".38 Military" for their Miliitary and Police revolver). The various .32's evolved somewhat - but not entirely - similarly.

floodgate

[happy7]

I would be in for a lee six cavity of the 36864 that drops about .361. Or does anyone have a lyman 35864 for sale?

[hydraulic]

Floodgate mentioned the .44 S&W. By coincidence, a fellow came by my table at the Yankton gun show today with a paper bag of old cartridges and I wound up with them. A handful of .32 S&W, another of .32 S&W Long, and another of .44 S&W. The lead bullets are all oxidized white and I'm sure they are black powder. The .44"s, according to Barnes, are for the old S&W American. The .32"s are for the model 1. Some were made by the old U.S. Cartridge Co. Interesting old historical ammunition.

[corvette8n]

I guess I lucked out, I used the Lee C358-158-SWC
mold for my Enfield pistol
loaded unsized, tumble lubed.
Worked ok.
Sold the mold about a year ago as I didn't shoot the gun that often, traded the pistol six months ago toward a Marlin 1895.