Zinc gas checks

[singleshot]

How would one go about squishing 1/8" zinc disks (kinda like pennies[smilie=1: ) into sheets to punch into gas checks?

[Jim]

First thing that comes to mind is a hydraulic press with a piston and anvil. I'm wondering if the zinc sheets are gonna form, though. I think they would break and crumble.

[longbow]

Zinc washers were used many years ago "Harvey Prot-X-Bore" but I suspect that zinc is not much better than hard lead alloys at least for high pressures. The zinc might be okay for handgun loads and as far as I know that's what the zinc washers were used for.

Depending on the zinc alloy it might be malleable enough to make disks but I am not so sure it would survive the cupping to make checks.

Not sure how the Harvey Prot-X-Bore washers were made but they were washers with a hole and riveted to the boolit. I have to think that if they were effective and affordable they would still be on the market.

Not trying to discourage experimentation though and if you want to make zinc disks I would agree with Jim that some form of punch press, hydraulic press, air hammer or similar would be required.

I suppose a simple approach would be to make a thick walled tube with a removable "anvil" and a close fitting ram to drop inside. Put a slug of zinc in, drop the ram in and whack the ram with a sledge hammer to swage the zinc slug flat. A well swung sledge hammer can apply a LOT of force! Of course this would require a substantial base to be stable and survive the impact. Might work though.

[ReloaderFred]

Zinc washers are applied to the base of a bullet by use of the CH 105 swaging die. I have the die and washers, but haven't used them yet.

The base punch of the die set has an indentation that forms the lead extruded through the center of the washer into a rivet and secures the washer to the base of the bullet.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[singleshot]

Thanks guys.

I've gotta think from the thousands of penny souvenier makers out there that a ~97.5% zinc alloy will survive being flattened. Especially since I've seen it myself.

The reason zinc intrigues me is it's a good lubricant, should lightly coat a barrel, and should make said barrel nearly impossible to lead. At least that's the theory...

Not sure why zinc isn't used in gas checks when it's used extensively for j-word bullets ;-) Granted in a much lower percentage of zinc, i.e. 5% for gilding metal.

I found a jewlers roller, recommended by the guys in the swaging section, that should work, but very hesitant to drop the required $300 to get it and try it out.

Maybe the sledge hammer option will work...

Now I need a gas check maker to try the idea out.

[singleshot]

Zinc washers were used many years ago "Harvey Prot-X-Bore" but I suspect that zinc is not much better than hard lead alloys at least for high pressures. The zinc might be okay for handgun loads and as far as I know that's what the zinc washers were used for.

Depending on the zinc alloy it might be malleable enough to make disks but I am not so sure it would survive the cupping to make checks.

Not sure how the Harvey Prot-X-Bore washers were made but they were washers with a hole and riveted to the boolit. I have to think that if they were effective and affordable they would still be on the market.

Not trying to discourage experimentation though and if you want to make zinc disks I would agree with Jim that some form of punch press, hydraulic press, air hammer or similar would be required.

I suppose a simple approach would be to make a thick walled tube with a removable "anvil" and a close fitting ram to drop inside. Put a slug of zinc in, drop the ram in and whack the ram with a sledge hammer to swage the zinc slug flat. A well swung sledge hammer can apply a LOT of force! Of course this would require a substantial base to be stable and survive the impact. Might work though.

Longbow, why do you think copper is stronger or more pressure resistant than zinc? I think zinc is quite a bit harder...Plus zinc is a premium lubricant that has since been outlawed by the EPA for use in autos. The oil you have now doesn't lubricate as well as the oil that had zinc dithiophosphate in it.

[L1A1Rocker]

I found a jewlers roller, recommended by the guys in the swaging section, that should work, but very hesitant to drop the required $300 to get it and try it out.

Maybe the sledge hammer option will work...

Now I need a gas check maker to try the idea out.

Do you have a routine train that keeps a consistant schedual? I flatened a many of penny that way. Be sure to mark the spot you put the penny, it should be somewhere within five feet or so of where you place it after being flatened.

[NoZombies]

Throwing pennies on a train track is illegal and a bad idea.

I have a rolling mill in my shop. I'd be happy to flatten a few pennies an send them to someone who wants to try this, just drop me a PM.

[L1A1Rocker]

Throwing pennies on a train track is illegal and a bad idea.


Is that Federal or State? Think you could show that to me in the code book as I've never heard of it before. Don't recall anyone ever being prosecuted for it either.

Bad idea? Why?

[edsmith]

in kalif it is 587.2 PC, I am sure other states have laws like it. it is to keep people from derailing trains.

[L1A1Rocker]

in kalif it is 587.2 PC, I am sure other states have laws like it. it is to keep people from derailing trains.

Does anybody really think that a penny will derail a train???

I mean seriously. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5qqaR5PJtk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUNZO1Xti1E

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for this???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWv85fimc88

[edsmith]

so, thats how they make hamburger,:D you know how it is with pennies, at firsr 1 pennie, then 2 pennies, then a roll, then a pallet. I don't think anyone thinks that a pennie would derail a train, but it is bad practice to place objects on rails. there is always some moron who gets carried away and does cause an accident.:drinks:

[roysha]

Actually, the Harvey Prot-X Bore system consisted of a mold which was machined to accept the washers then the lead was poured in. I had one of these nightmares , in 4 cavity no less, and it was an EXTREME PITA to say the least. The only way I could make it work was to cast a batch of bullets w/o the washers to heat up the mold then, using needle nose pliers, insert washers ( burning my fingers on a regular basis since I couldn't operate the pliers accurately enough to insert the washers with gloves on) and cast until the mold got too cold then heat up again with washerless bullets, and so forth. I learned to wait a few seconds to let the washer get hot or the lead would not flow through the hole to retain the washer on the base of the bullet. Overall about a 30% yield was very good with 25% or so being more realistic. I suspect if this had been a single or double cavity it would have worked much better. If I had known then what I know now I'm quite sure I could have made it work much better but this was very early in my casting career and I just had to use all 4 cavities.

For the life of me I can't remember where the mold came from or where it went but I suspect it was an initiation rite (let's sell the newby this *** because he doesn't know any better) and I in turn initiated some other poor sucker. Oh well!

[singleshot]

Ok, I don't think a penny will derail a train on a straight section, but my dad was a train engineer for 35 years and you'd be surprised what CAN derail a train given the right circumstances. In ALL cases it is a FEDERAL matter, involving FEDERAL investigation and prosecution.

My whole point was that zinc is a good lube, and should make good gas checks if you can get them formed. In addition, zinc coating the barrel should completely prevent leading. Newer pennies seem like a really good source of material...

[WILCO]

Is that Federal or State? Think you could show that to me in the code book as I've never heard of it before. Don't recall anyone ever being prosecuted for it either.

Bad idea? Why?

I love ignorance! [smilie=s:

[shotman]

the last time I put them on the track they were not touched. just moved off. May try a stopped train and put between the cars as they arent as heavy as the 320tons of an engine

[longbow]

Comparing physical properties of copper and zinc:

Pure copper has:

- Tensile strength of 220 MPa
- Brinell hardness of 874 MPa
- Density of 8.94 gm/cm3
- Melting point of 1084.62 °C

Zinc has:

- Tensile strength of 126 Mpa
- Brinell hardness of 412 MPa
- Density of 7.14 gm/cm3
- Melting point of 419.53 °C

So, pure copper is about twice the tensile strength, is twice as hard, denser and twice the melting point of pure zinc. Once you start allying all that can change of course. The zinc used as a bearing material is a zinc alloy much different than pure zinc.

I suspect that under high pressure conditions, like gas checks for rifle boolits, that copper would be the superior material. Just my opinion.

Now, comparing aluminum which makes a pretty decent gas check material, it has lower hardness and tensile strength than zinc but higher melting point. That is for pure aluminum and I am not sure what typical aluminum gutter and flashing are made of but to my knowledge they are close to pure aluminum.

So, go figure!

Copper and aluminum both work harden some which increases hardness and tensile strength but I am not sure about zinc.

I know gas cutting is not melting but maybe there is a connection between melting point and gas cutting resistance. I would have figured hardness and tensile strength would be more important.

In any case, my gut feeling is still that copper is the better material for the purpose. I can't argue it logically though so you better make some zinc gas checks then we will know for sure.

Good luck!

Longbow