Companion 45 Colt Carbine and revolver

[saltydog452]

I don't know the proper catagory for this post, but here it is...

I'm asking for your suggestions for a 'handy size' .45 Colt Carbine and sidearm hardware. Both capable of handling 'cruising speed' 265 at 1,000 fps long term. But capable of of more. And...

Suggestions for loads that'd do well in both the revolver and carbine. I don't know about common revolver and carbine twist rates, and powder rate of burn other than they exist and are important. I 'think' I'd like to use hard alloy, maybe even GC, dunno for sure.

Suggestions for the Carbine/Sidearm combination and feeding the same fodder is appreciated.

Thanks,

salty

[frnkeore]

My combo is a Ruger Blackhawk with adjustable sights and a transfer bar safety and a Puma '92 w/20" barrel..

My load is a bit heavy at 23.0 gr of 296 and a resized 340 gr Lee 45/70 bullet (335 in my alloy), it goes 1300 fps in my 7 1/2" Blackhawk. 1" groups at 50 yds in the carbine and 1 1/2 to 2" groups in the BH at 25 yds. That load should take anything in North America in either gun. You can go hotter than that in a Redhawk but, that is all I can hang on to in a pistol!

My other load (target) is 8.5 gr Unique with a H&G 250 gr, 1 1/2" groups at 25 with the BH but, haven't tried it in the '92. I haven't chronographed it but, it's about 900 fps in the BH, it might go as much as 1100 in the 20" barrel. To get your 1000 fps, you can go to 10.0 gr Unique. It should still be accurate.

Frank

[358wcf]

I've been considering much the same thing, as I've recently been privileged to acquire a pristine Browning Low-wall rifle in 45 Colt from another forum member here- short, light, powerful- I'm hoping to match it up with a S&W Mountain Gun in 45 Colt for belt use while hunting- the quest continues!

Chuck
358wcf[smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[RobS]

Ruger BH or RH with a Puma 92' would be a good ticket and isn't going to break the bank. I have the 454 Casull Combo with a Ruger SRH and a LSI Puma 20" that goes together for me like socks and shoes.

[Phillip]

I have Rossi 24" octagon with a Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8" combo. I also have a Redhawk with the 4" barrel as well.

They all handle the Lee 300gr GC LRF pushed with H110 very well.

[saltydog452]

Is the Marlin Micro Groove and the Ruger compatable?

The idea is that, simpler is probably better and the same load that'd be tolerable in both would be a good thing.

Thanks,

sd.

[DanWalker]

I have a win 94 trapper and a 5 1/2" blackhawk.
I use 6.5 grains of Red Dot in both, under either a 255 gr swc or a 320 grain hammer boolit.
18 grains of 2400 under either boolit also does fine work for me when more power is needed.
I've killed deer, antelope and hogs with all 4 loads.

[frank505]

Japchester 92 with 24" barrel, it's load is an RCBS 300 grain SWC gas check with 19 grains of WC 820 (lot 47320), Starline case and a REm 2 1/2. My sixgun load is a 310 Keith, 21.2 of WC 820, Rem 2 1/2. The rifle load will shoot vey close in the sixgun, the sixgun will barely function in the rifle as it is just a bit too long. I have modified the carrier as much as possible to function with a longer bullet but is has a limit. I do not mind having two loads, the rifle is my winter snowshoe gun. We can run into bull bison on down and I know this load will do just fine on bison from experience on our bison culling in N.D.
The rifle load is about 1500 fps, the sixgun load in my old 5 inch is 1228 @32,000 psi. The reason the rifle load is a bit less powder is the bullet is further in the case.

[frnkeore]

358 wcf,
You'll will limit yourself with the S&W as far as interchangable loads go. The low wall will take any load that the Casull will but, the top end load in a 625 is, no more that 21.5 gr 296/H110 and a 300 gr lead bullet. I must say, that load will do the trick on almost anything though.

I have all three guns, 625, BH & RH in 45 Colt. I segregate loads by OAL. 1.68 for the 625, 1.73 for the BH and 1.81 for the RH so they won't work in the lower strength gun.

Frank

[btroj]

I have a BH and. Marlin 1894 CB with the 24 inch barrel. They both like the same loads so it is easy to keep them happy.
I really like the longer barrel on the Marlin, it makes it easier to shoot in my opinion. The length is never an issue on the field.

[Fishman]

Cdnn may still have some of the H&R classic carbines in 45 colt with walnut furniture and case colored buttplate for $229. I got two, one for my Dad and one for my son. Also reamed them to .454 casull but 255 gr boolits in 45 colt cases at 750 fps using trailboss are fun! Team it up with a blackhawk or perhaps a redhawk in .454 casull, as my dad did and get to work.

[Gee_Wizz01]

I have a Rossi M92 in 45 Colt with 16" barrel and a couple of Ruger BH's. The short barrel Rossi is a pleasure to carry with its short barrel and slim receiver. I use several boolits and several powders with my .45's for cheap plinking I use the 160 gr Lee RNFP and WW231, for steel plates out to 50 yds I use the Lee 200gr RNFP and Unique or Trail Boss. For serious business I use a group buy J Cusey 454190 and 2400 or H110 and I also shoot the Lyman 454424. Both the Rugers and the Rossi can handle the hot "Ruger Only" loads.

[timkelley]

Blackhawk and Rossi 92 clone. Marlin would be good too. Do not expect to get a load that will be perfect for both rifle and revolver but you should be able to get a 'pretty good' load.

[Grapeshot]

I don't know the proper catagory for this post, but here it is...

I'm asking for your suggestions for a 'handy size' .45 Colt Carbine and sidearm hardware. Both capable of handling 'cruising speed' 265 at 1,000 fps long term. But capable of of more. And...

. I 'think' I'd like to use hard alloy, maybe even GC, dunno for sure.

Suggestions for the Carbine/Sidearm combination and feeding the same fodder is appreciated.

Thanks,

salty

OK, here's what I did. I started with a Uberti 1873 SRC in .45 Colt and a S&W M25-5. My load was 17 grains of Hercules' 2400 behind a Lee 454 RNFP. This load was great in the carbine, but a little Stout in the Smith. I later got a Colt Anaconda to replace the S&W 25-5. The Colt handled the 2400 / Lee bullet load better.

I have switched to the Lyman .452 Cowboy RNFP as it holds more lube for lead free barrel in the Carbine. I have used a Lyman 452 230 grain SWC w/GC in the Anaconda and used AA #9 as my propellant. I prefer WLP primers for my loads.

[saltydog452]

Thanks all.

salty

[Catshooter]

Hang on salty, we ain't done.

My Winchester 94 Trapper's bore is .451 and just barely that.

My Smith 25-5s throats are .455 with a .453 bore.

I have an old Lyman 454424 that drops wheel weight boolits at .456, so I size them in a .456 sizer/luber. I cast them from 50/50 wheel weights/pure lead. Seated over 9.0 grains of Universal Clays. Zero leading in both guns.

Smith, 930 fps, Winchester 1260. Very accurate in both. I was concerned that the loaded rounds with that fat boolit wouldn't chamber in the Win but they do, just.


Cat

[saltydog452]

Thanks Cat.

In my SW 25, a measured .454 when dropped through the cylinder doesn't even slow down before hitting the carpet. Accuracy isn't awful, just not good.

Didn't buy it for a trip to Camp Perry, so it suits its intended purpose. I am looking for a 'companion' shoulder arm for the SW side arm. Same ammunition for both, but with the 4"revolver loads stepping out somewhere around 900-1,000 fps.

What does the 7.5 Unique/265 Lead Head run from a Carbine length rifle? Boolit diameter will be .454".

Before I plunk down some scarce cash, anyone experience feeding problems with .454" diameter boolits in the Marlin Cowboy Carbine?

salty

[saltydog452]

Thanks Bill,

Yeah, you are right. First hand obversations are way better than group opinions.

Since I haven't traveled this road before, I am asking for those opinions. Hopefully, they'll be based on first person obversations.

Thing is, I haven't bought the Rifle/Carbine yet and was kinda sorta asking the membership about compatable loads. Kinda leaning toward the Marlin Carbine, dunno yet.

I have bought the SW 25 'tho and it has big holes in the cylinder.

.454" is the largest boolit commercially available from commercial casters. Just guessing, that larger diameter .454 +" boolits that may be great in the SW 25, won't play nice in the rifle.

Your patience and comments will be appreciated.

Thanks,

salty

[Dframe]

Winchester 94AE and a S&W model 25.
Or if you're real lucky or have a lot of money a Colt anaconda.

[NHlever]

I had a Marlin 45 Colt 24" barrel cowboy gun, and like an idiot I sold it. There were chatter marks in the barrel that caused me some grief, but I should have sent it back since I haven't seen another on in some time now. I do know where there is an H&R carbine now at a "reasonable " price I guess, but it seems a bit high for what it is.

Anyway, I used to load the Marlin, and my full sized Vaquero with boolits up to the 300 grain Lee using "Ruger only" loads, and never had any problems at all. The 300 grain Lee needed all the velocity I could get to be stable, and reasonably accurate at 100 yards........ don't get me thinking about that as I'm headed out gun shopping today.

[saltydog452]

After you go 'shopping' for any major purchase, but before payment, take a break with a triple dip Ice Cream and a cup of decent Coffee. That seems to kinda level the playing field.

salty

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I did the same some years ago. Got a Ruger BHK and an Interarms Rossi in .45 Colt.. well got the Ruger 1st. Has served well over time and I cannot think of a better caliber to do it with.. I even might (this hurts) say I like it better than my .41 mag duo. It sure is a toss-up. But to get into a .41 mag carbine costs lots ! But if you have lots of spare change.. then those Cowboy Marlins are nice.. but do not shoot any better.
Mike in Peru

[helice]

I think you'll find that a lot of us like the 45 Colt. It's so versatile. My Uberti colt-clone is kept in the slow and light-weight range. The Red Hawk and Blackhawk will take anything I shoot in the LSI Stainless Puma 92. Worked for a while with Lil'Gun and the 300 grain RCBS but now I'm back using H110. The Uberti is fed with Red Dot and 700X just cause I have a bunch.

[Doc.Holliday]

I have 2 Rossi's ; a 92 with 16 inch barrel and a Ranch Hand with the 12 inch barrel.
I use 250 grain .454 diameter ; Rnfp hard cast bullets in both.
Bullets are over 7.0 grains of Red Dot and CCI 350 primer and are accurate and very clean loads.
In the rifle I also use 21 grains of IMR on occasion
Regards
Doc

[dangerranger]

I have a couple of carbines in 45 colt. the H&R carbine really likes its bullits sized .454. its a single shot tho. Ive not had alot of time lately to work out its best load but with pistol loads of 230 gr lead over 5gr of tightgroup it would shoot 10 shots onto an 8" bull at 200 yds. not target quality but Id shoot at a pig out to 150yds with it. with some tuning it should do better.
The marlin has a 20" barrel, and with open sights I can shoot 3" groups at 50 yds. with better sights Id expect it to do half that. the marlin is actually my favorite. probably why Ive never scoped it. I should put a tang sight on it tho. if you can be happy with a single shot the H&R is about half the price. and it shoots just as well. what ever you get enjoy it. DR

[cajun shooter]

Salty Dog, As you can see this type of question will bring you both good and bad suggestions. I say that in the sense that not one person asked about your intended use of these guns and why you chose the 45 Colt as your combo. Having been a firearms instructor and armorer for a large LEO and a SASS shooter may help me help you. I by no means am telling you that I am any smarter than the previous posters but I did learn from police work that one should ask the questions that have a great deal to do with the proper answer. Do you plan on shooting any cowboy matches and if so what class? Do you plan on hunting with these guns and if so what type of game? Finally are the guns meant for plinking and just having fun? For hunting purpose I would stay with a Rossi made 92. This is the scaled down 1886 and a very strong action. It will also last if shooting strong cartridges. It is also a better choice than the Marlin as it ejects the cartridges to the rear and up. The Marlin throws the empties to the right front of the shooter and is past the shooting line. You will not be able to retrieve most of your brass during the match. The suggestion of a 73 is also not good if it is intended for hunting with heavy charges. The toggle bolt guns are the weakest of all the lever action guns. If you are just wanting some guns to shoot with medium range ammo then any of the guns will work. The Ruger Vaqueros new models have frames that are almost Colt size and the same as the original Ruger Black Hawks XR-Red frames. It's kinda like walking into the corner Baskin Robbins and saying I need a ice cream. This is all subject to change if you have another use.

[G. Blessing]

well, I say pick your purposes.... then figure what the hottest ammo you will want in the revolver will be.... then within that strength range, buy the gun that looks good,and feels good to you...

Shoot, and be happy.

For instance, my combo is a Berretta Stampede Marshal, and a Winchester '94AE Trapper. The berretta a colt clone SAA, the ''weak gun'' most will say. I dunno. Max loads for colt clones are more than hot enough for my purpose, and hurt too much to shoot anyway. My purpose? Self defense. Both 2 and 4 legged vermin. The Berreta is my EDC shootin' 255grn Kieths at around 950fps... any hotter than that and we move on to 4 legged targets, and hen I figure i should be using a carbine anyway; can star farther from the target!

I bought it based simply on astetics and feel; I waned a real six gun; i'm a cowboy/western nut. ;) Got the birds head grip since i have small hands, and the marshal is only a 3.5" barrel, pretty nice for a CCW.

The Win94 was a gift from a friend that heard i was looking at getting a Rossi.... He knew I loved shooting the Trapper when we went to the range with it before, and he never used it anymore, so he figured I'd like the Winchester better. I was all set for a Rossi, Winchester or similar. Don't like the Look or Feel of the Marlins.

At which point I learned how versatile .45Colt can be... ;) I simply mark my rifle only ammo with a red sharpie, the primers, and some times the whole case head/rim. Works for me, to keep the Mag stuff out of the revolver.

By all means, look at performance; But don't forget to get something you LIKE. :)

G.

[saltydog452]

Thats what I want.


It would seem that the 4" M 25 would be just about right for carry. At one time I had a 7.5" New Frontier. That didn't seem to 'fit' anywhere.

A carbine looks good for the long gun part of the equation. At this stage of my life, weight is a big consideration.

255 at 900-1000 fps from the 4" and the same load through a 20" carbine ought to do might near anything that I'd ever want to do.

Recoil would be an issue. Two rotator surgeries on the right shoulder hasn't left too much of the original ball and socket joint.

Thanks all for the relpies.

salty

[Ziptar]

Wait there's more!!!! :p

I've got a Marlin 1894 with a Microgroove barrel that slugs out at .451.


Hang on salty, we ain't done.

[saltydog452]

Thing is, the Smith will allow a premeasured .454" lead bullet to hit the carpet w/o even slowing down. Understand that, thats when the pre measured .454 RNFP is released from the top of an open cylinder.

Maybe I don't get it, but would a 'tight' 451" play nice with .454" lead boollits.?

I could sell the M25. Don't know yet.

Thanks,

salty

[Grapeshot]

Thing is, the Smith will allow a premeasured .454" lead bullet to hit the carpet w/o even slowing down. Understand that, thats when the pre measured .454 RNFP is released from the top of an open cylinder.

Maybe I don't get it, but would a 'tight' 451" play nice with .454" lead boollits.?

I could sell the M25. Don't know yet.

Thanks,

salty

Saddly, S&W had a quality issue back in the 1970's when I got my 25-5. It to had oversized chamber mouths and allowed .454 bullets to drop right through without slowing down. That was one of the reasons I traded it in for the Colt Anaconda.

I am still kicking the idea around of making a AR that handles .45 Win Mag.

[Catshooter]

Thing is, the Smith will allow a premeasured .454" lead bullet to hit the carpet w/o even slowing down. Understand that, thats when the pre measured .454 RNFP is released from the top of an open cylinder.

Maybe I don't get it, but would a 'tight' 451" play nice with .454" lead boollits.?

I could sell the M25. Don't know yet.

Thanks,

salty


Salty,

Works for my Trapper. It's bore just barely makes .451, it's really more like .4508 or 9. The throats in my 25-5 are bigger than yours at .455. I size my boolits to .456 and both the Smith and the Winchester eats 'em like candy. They also shoot very well. The nine grains of Universal Clays gives +900 fps in the Smith and about 1250 outa the Trapper.


Cat

[saltydog452]

Thanks all.

salty

[Ziptar]

Saddly, S&W had a quality issue back in the 1970's when I got my 25-5. It to had oversized chamber mouths and allowed .454 bullets to drop right through without slowing down. That was one of the reasons I traded it in for the Colt Anaconda.

I am still kicking the idea around of making a AR that handles .45 Win Mag.


The pinned barrel Model 25s have over sized or at least inconsistently sized throats up through the -5, they have NXXXXXX serial numbers. I've seen throat sizes reported anywhere from .451 to .456.

Beginning with the non pinned -7 models S&W got it right and throats were consistently sized .451 - .452. The serial numbers changed format beginning with the -7 also, they start with three letters followed by numbers, i.e.: ABC123456. They also got a partial Endurance package, beginning with the -9 they got full Endurance Packages.

Any non pinned Model 25 in 45 Colt with three letters starting off the serial number will have .451 - .452 throats.

There's detailed Model 25 thread on S&W Forum, its a good read. (http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/174961-why-smith-45-colt-ultimate-25-625-discussion-thread.html)