Argentine 1891 7.65X53MM Load

[Pirate69]

Working on some loads for the 1891. The barrel slugs 0.312". I have some 0.312" 155 grain cast that I loaded in front of 10 grains of Unique. They shot very well at 25 yards and 50 yards. At 100 yards, I got some keyholes. Guess I ran out of velocity.

I checked one of the fired cases and found my 0.3165" 202 grain cast would slide in with little or no pressure. I have always heard that you should shoot the largest cast that that will chamber. I loaded a dummy round and it chambered without any resistance. However, I can't seat it long enough to find the lands.

My question. Is 0.004" or more too much to push down the barrel? Anyone see any safety issue? Should be a heck of a fit.

[leadman]

I shoot cast in 2 different '91s. you probably could go to 13grs of Unique with no problem. That is what I am using with the 206gr 314299.

You should seat to the throat, not the neck of the case. The throat is the part in front of the chamber.

Size just a little of a fired case neck (no powder), just enough to hold the bullet. seat a bullet as far out as you can and load it in the gun then close the bolt. the bullet should push back in the case some. This will be the oal of your cartridge. If it will fit the magazine you are good to go, if not you can single load or find a different bullet.

[dbldblu]

Fired cases from my 1891 run .321 ID in the neck. I think it is just the way it is with these rifles. I size to .314 and all is well.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I shoot 12g of Unique and a 155g .314 bullet in mine.Even though the bullet is far off the lands it shoots very well.You can expect under 2" at 100 in good light if your eyeballs are screwed on straight.

HMP

[Dutch4122]

.004" is not too much to size down when firing. I do it with several of my rifles with loads over 40,000 cup and have no issues. My 1891 Argentine Infantry Rifle also measures .320" inside the neck on a fired casing using Privi Partisan brass. The only way I know to tighten up that dimension is to reform brass from Remington 30-06 which should give you an ID closer to .314" on the case neck.

BTW, try 13 grains of Unique. That'll get you out to 100 yards with more authority and is accurate in most Milsurps I've shot.

Hope this helps, :D

[Pirate69]

thanks everyone

[Bret4207]

FWIW- as someone who has recommended measuring a fired case mouth, I want to qualify that. That is to determine the MAX diameter you can usually get away with with cast. That's not the same as throat diameter as the OP can plainly demonstrate. In some military and a few commercial chambers all bets are off. In "normal" cut guns the diameter of a fired case mouth is often near your "happy place" as far as size goes. It's a starting point for those that don't/can't slug.

I'd go as large as my throat allowed and see what the gun said.

[Pirate69]

Well, I tried some 0.316" 202 grainers in my 0.312" bore and got lots of leading in a very short period of time (plated in less than 5 rounds). Had about 13 grains of Unique behind a non-gas checked boolit. I guess the first lesson is that I need a gas check on that load. Will determine if GC solves the problem tomorow morning. I do not have a way of measuring velocity. Does anyone have a feel for a 155 grain bullet in front of both 10 grains Unique and 13 grains of Unique. Talking 7.65X53MM round. How about 13 grains of Unique behind a 202 grain boolit? I know for sure it will lead big time wihout a gas check. Would like to find a plinking load that will shoot both rounds, without a GC, and not lead.

I do know that 10 grains of Unique behind a gas checked 155 grain 0.312" bullet shots well and does not lead.

[Larry Gibson]

I regularly shoot 314299s sized .314 in 4 7.65 Argie's (3 M91s and a M1909). They are GC'd and lubed with Javelina. I load them over 28 gr 4895 with a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler for right at 1900 fps out of the 2 long barrels (29.25") and excellent accuracy with no leading what so ever.

Larry Gibson

[Pirate69]

Used GC boolits in all loads today. No leading issues. Looks like I am back in the game. Shot both 1.0 cc Unique and 1.3 cc Unique loads.


http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Argentine%20Mauser/037.jpg


http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Argentine%20Mauser/038.jpg


http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Argentine%20Mauser/039.jpg


And here is Mr. Ugly.

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Argentine%20Mauser/036.jpg

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Argentine%20Mauser/035.jpg

[leadman]

I have not had any success with no gas checks in either of my 1891s. IIRC my 206gr boolit with 13grs of Unique is about 1,400 fps. your 155gr boolit will probably be about 100fps +- 50fps.
With no gas check you could try 9/10grs or so of Unique.
When I first got my 1891 sporter (1981) I shot 32cal. pistol bullets with BlueDot. They would flat do in a big jack!

[Pirate69]

Leadman,
Think you lost a figure in the 155 grain estimate. Could you please repeat?

[Multigunner]

And here is Mr. Ugly.



Your rifle looks almost exactly like one a friend picked up for 50 bucks at a yardsale, though yours is in much better condition. His was black as tar from old grease and deer blood, the only parts not black were those covered with rust.
He'd bought the rifle intending to put a 7mm barrel on it and a sporter stock, but after finding its sewer pipe bore still delivered tight groups of around 1.5 MOA with ancient milsurp ammo he decided to leave it exactly how he found it and took many white tail with it. After building up a nicer sporter from a M96 he continued to use the 91 as a loaner and it never failed to take a deer with clean one shot kills.
I'd suggested he lapp the rough bore but he decided to leave well enough alone since accuracy was far above expectations and might not be as good if he tried to improve the bore.

These are some mighty fine actions.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/James64/P1218967.jpg

Happiness:drinks:
Tumble lubed with Recluses 45-45-10 & GC'd ZERO leading
50 yard group was 7/16"
Load data on the target above

Oh, this was shot with open sights too :bigsmyl2:

[rhbrink]

Whats you mean Pirate69 that's BEAUTFULLLL

[leadman]

Oops! Probably around 1500 fps. Velocity doesn't matter as much as finding the load that is most accurate to me at least.
There are times when I do "need" a little more speed to flatten the trajectory if I'm playing at longer ranges.

[Pirate69]

Latest progress with my Argentine Mauser. Shot 30 rounds through it this morning. Wanted to work on determining loads at 50 yards before I move to 100 yards. I was smart enough today to put the sunshade up so there was not a glare on the rear sight. Made the sight a little crisper.

Had a few 155 grain loads (1.3 cc Unique) left over from last week. This is first five shot group. Used the ladder sight set to 500 meters.

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Argentine%20Mauser%202/006.jpg


This is the same load with the ladder sight lowered while still set at 500 meters. I figured the POI should be the same since both were set at 500 meters. Not even close.


http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Argentine%20Mauser%202/005.jpg


Time to work on sighting it in. Got lucky and found it quickly

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Argentine%20Mauser%202/004.jpg


New 155 grain loads (1.3 cc Unique) made-up on Thursday. POI has changed with the latest loads. Same bullet, same powder and dipper, different POI. I must have done something different.


http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Argentine%20Mauser%202/003.jpg



Next two groups are 202 grain loads (1.3 cc Unique). POI pretty close to 155 grain loads (1.3 cc Unique) POI. Got one out of the group.

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Argentine%20Mauser%202/002.jpg


Second 202 grain loads (1.3 cc Unique) group. Lost another out of the group. I think the flyers are me, not the load. The trigger is rough and I can almost call the flyers as it creaks to release. Still, starting to look good for 50 yards. Next, 100 yards. That should be a real test for these 60 year old eyes and iron sights.
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww187/Pirate69-photo/Argentine%20Mauser%202/001.jpg

[leadman]

Looks like you are getting it sorted out. do you weight sort your boolits?

The triggers on both of my rifles are originals and really pretty decent. Maybe a little cleaning and smoothing of the surfaces would help.

My sporter I cut a little off the firing pin spring shortly after I got it and that help a bunch.

[Pirate69]

Have not sorted any boolits or weighed any charges as of yet. That may help some. Probably do need to take a look at the trigger. To be honest, I have not taken the action out of the stock yet. Still so areas of improvement to look at.