Stupid Stupid Stupid!

[Hip's Ax]

I have a 30-338 Win Mag target rifle (see pic attached) that was built in the mid 80's. Lovely old school long range 1000 yard target rifle built by THE Bill Wylde. Well, since I've had it I put a total of 277 rounds through it. If this doesn’t sound like much if you consider that I'm running 190 grain Sierra MatchKings with 65 grains of IMR 4350 powder this translates into what amounts to 277 car accidents. Well, about a year ago I decided that I had enough once fired brass (277 pieces) to make up a lot of ammo, this is desirable as once fired neck sized brass always shoots tighter groups that unfired brass. Bought a Redding neck die, lubed a case up and sent it through the die, put the brass in my dial indicator rig and the neck had 0.004" run out, not good! Put everything aside as I'm not actively using this rifle due to two other 1000 yard target rifles I'd had built after I bought the 30-338 in 2002.
About three weeks ago I had to order some reloading gear and I threw another 30-338 neck die in the order to see if it’s the die causing the run out or something else. New die came and I sat down this past Monday to see what's what. Set up the die in the press, lubed up a case and sent it through. Noticed that neck had flat "facets" all around the neck so I sent it through again and these were nicely smoothed out. Put the brass in the jig and it has 0.001" run out, OK, now I know that my old die is made wrong.
Since the 30-338 is a Wildcat made from 338 Win Mag brass that is sized down to .30 caliber I decided I'd best anneal this lot of brass to get long life and good consistent bullet pull. Whipped out my plumbers tourch, my Hornady annealing equipment and a bucket of water. Stood there at the kitchen table for almost two hours with my power screwdriver spinning each piece of brass's neck in the flame until the correct temperature is reached and then quickly dump that piece of brass into the water bucket and then repeat ad naseum with the rest of the brass.
After all were done I dumped the bucket of brass into the kitchen colander to drain off the water then spread the brass out on newspaper to dry off. After 10 or 15 minutes I decided that the brass would never dry completely and I'd ruin my ground corn cob in the tumbler by putting in wet brass. I figured several minutes in the oven at 100 degrees or so would dry them nicely.
Now, my stove is old. I'm 45 years old and I don’t really have any memory of the stove we had before this one so suffice it to say its 40+ years old. All the numbers are worn off the oven knob so I go talk to Mom. Mom says she put a magic marker line on the knob at 350 degrees and to turn the knob up near there until it lights. So, I get the oven lit, get down on my knees and adjust the flame in the broiler down nice and low and put the kitchen thermometer in followed by three cookie sheets covered with foil and my 277 pieces of annealed, once fired 30-338 brass. 3 or 4 minutes later I open the oven and the thermometer said 150 degrees, that’s fine I said and closed the door to wait another 5 minutes figuring this would dry the brass completely. 5 minutes later I open the oven, the thermometer says 350 degrees and my brass is all purple. Ruined. Replacement cost of this much brass is now $100 or so, sometimes I really am a friggin idiot.

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/uploaded/Hips%20Ax/200612307248_30-338.jpg

[sundog]

Hip's Ax, WOW, nice rifle (he said as he wiped the drool from the corner of his lip).

I quit using Redding neck sizers for exactly the reason you mentioned - run out. I'm sure there are some here who will say different, but for me it was a problem. I've switched over to Lee collet neck sizers and never looked back! sundog

[felix]

If you are into custom dies, the best are those hand held jobbies, called knock out dies. These are for sizing turned necks only. If your requirements include pickup brass, the dies would have to be more normal in configuration. I suggest having Bonanza dies made up, giving these folks three well expanded rounds of brass from your rifle with instructions to size (with shoulder bump) any wild pickup brass to these fully expanded case dimensions exactly minus 0.0005. They can and will do this with great accuracy. ... felix

[Hip's Ax]

Hip's Ax, WOW, nice rifle (he said as he wiped the drool from the corner of his lip).

I quit using Redding neck sizers for exactly the reason you mentioned - run out. I'm sure there are some here who will say different, but for me it was a problem. I've switched over to Lee collet neck sizers and never looked back! sundog

I love and use the Lee collet dies where ever possible. Bet you I have Lee collets in 8 or more calibers. Alas they don't offer 30-338 and I haven't yet asked Lee (or anyone else) to make me a custom die. Redding has always been my first choice for regular dies, I have a lot of those green boxes on my bench. My use of the run out jig is what is unusual, had it for years but almost never use it and I'm far more often than not reloading for a service rifle or a mil surp where one hardly ever checks such things.

Thanks for the compliment, I really do love this rifle.

[Hip's Ax]

If you are into custom dies, the best are those hand held jobbies, called knock out dies. These are for sizing turned necks only. If your requirements include pickup brass, the dies would have to be more normal in configuration. I suggest having Bonanza dies made up, giving these folks three well expanded rounds of brass from your rifle with instructions to size (with shoulder bump) any wild pickup brass to these fully expanded case dimensions exactly minus 0.0005. They can and will do this with great accuracy. ... felix

Felix, agreed. Forster dies are awesome. The only set I have actually came with this rifle and I will assume they are mid 80's vintage as well. The box reads "Forster Bonanza", not sure how long ago Forster abandoned the Bonanza suffix. The Wilson style hand dies that are used in an arbor type press have always fascinated me, figure those are only for bench shooting as I doubt I could ever hold a slinged rifle steady enough to glean the extra accuracy provided by such fine pieces of work. I do have a 300m free rifle in 6BR that I may wind up having to neck turn for though. Neck turning never sounded like much fun so when I had this 300m rifle built I specified a no turn chamber. Well, the few pieces of once fired brass I have has the dreaded doughnut inside the base of the neck. I hope to just ream the doughnut out and to neck size from then on but I messed up again (what a surprise) and ordered a Forster shell trimmer with reamers without reading close enough to see that the reamers are actually 0.0025" over sized. In several weeks I plan on ordering the Wilson shell trimmer with 0.243 reamer from Sinclair as they claim an actual 0.243 diameter on the reamer. Why can't anything ever be simple? :roll:

[versifier]

....Bought a Redding neck die, lubed a case up and sent it through the die, put the brass in my dial indicator rig and the neck had 0.004" run out, not good!

I have never lubed a case before neck sizing. I wonder if that might have contributed to the problem.

[sundog]

Versifier, my guess is yes. When I was still using my Redding dies, I made darn sure the inside neck (and outside) got a swab of lube with a qtip. It helped alot, but there was still some undesireble stretching going on. Don't get me wrong, the Redding dies can be used very effectively. It's just that for my kind of loading the Lee collets are MORE than 'good enough'..., with less steps to prep the brass. sundog

[Ricochet]

I'd probably still use those cases for low pressure cast plinking loads.

[trooperdan]

If you are correct that it was only 5 minutes it is hard to see how the brass got hot enough for long enough to soften the head. I'd be mighty supicious of them... but I wouldn't scrap them just yet.

[Jeffreytooker]

I have never lubed a case before neck sizing. I wonder if that might have contributed to the problem.

I lube my necks before sizing. I use Imperial sizing die wax. I just tap my finger in the can of wax and rub my fingers together to spread the wax. Then I rub it on the neck. Use only the barest minimum. More will cause problems.

Jeffrey Tooker
Paynes Creek Ca.

[Hip's Ax]

All, thank you for sharing yout thoughts, I am always impressed by the wealth of knowledge and experience on this board. I always lube when neck sizing except for when I'm using a Lee collet die or when I'm making "Mexican Match" as the cases are already primed and I don't want to chance inerting the primer. When I size the MexMatch cases they seem to go through just fine and they are going to be fired in a service grade Garand or an 03A3 or some other mil surp bolt gun where worries about the ammo are not as important as trying to align those dang sights anyway. No, no reason to accept the risk of every using these cases again, not all but a good portion are "meat stamp" purple. I originally bought a full case of 500 338 Win Mag cases when I got this rifle so I should still have 200+ left to work with. Good thing too, I paid $119 for the 500 cases in 2002, the best price I can find on them now is in the mid $180's with some prices being way over $200. Yeesh. When the time comes I'm considering working up my next batch of brass out of 300 Win Mag instead of 338 WM as then I can fit the shoulder perfectly to my chamber. Then again by the time I fire what brass I have left until it needs to be replaced the barrel will have washed out and I might have it redone in a different caliber anyway. Rifle has approximately 577 rounds through it now and these wash out at about 1300 rounds. I must admit I never considered shooting cast in this rifle, that is a very interesting thought. Hmmmmmm......could breath new life into this old athlete.

[eka]

When I dry my brass in the oven, I preheat the oven up to 170 (that's as low as it goes) with the brass inside. Once it preheats, I turn the oven off and let it cool back down along with the brass. If the brass was pretty wet, I have to repeat again sometimes. Its not the fastest way, but it's playing it safe.

When I neck size, I lube the inside of the necks with a brush containing a small amount of lube. I haven't been lubing the outsides because I figured I'd get hydraulic dents in the shoulder. I'll try putting a smidge on the outside with Imperial Wax.

Keith

[Ricochet]

Scrap brass is getting good prices nowadays.

I have an artist daughter who makes stuff out of cases and bullets. I take stuff I pick up on the range and don't load for myself to her.

I've thought about making stuff like wind chimes or those little chimes drummers ddrag a stick across out of used cases.

[35remington]

Redding actually has a better neck sizer than most, as it is tight enough to very slightly size the bottom of the case as well. Which is why they recommend lubing the occasional case. It's promoted as being better for centering the neck with the body of the case.

I use Imperial also, and lube about every third case, as per their instructions. In my .25-20 neck sizer runout is less than 0.001", darn near zero. My others are very near .001."

They have a pretty good service department. Send it back to them and they'll make it right.

Another vote here for the Lee Collet Die. Best kept secret for the cast bullet shooter. If I could afford it I'd get one for all my nonstandard calibers as well. Only my best shooters have had a custom made collet die to fit them. It was worth it.