Which 9mm auto?

[btroj]

Looking at possibly buying a 9mm auto. Looking at either a Browning high power or a Beretta 92.

And pros or cons to either? Will largely be shot with cast, of course.

[Char-Gar]

I have had them both and I would choose the Browning HP hands down. Just pick them up and hold them and you will find out the Browning feels so much better in your hand, points, better, carries better and is most often more accurate.

The Browning trigger can be pretty hard, but it can be tamed with a little work and the removal of the magazine disconnecter.

In the end it is your choice, but you asked for opinions and that is mine.

[theperfessor]

No experience with the Beretta but I love my HiPower!

[btroj]

That is PRECISELY the kind of info I was looking for. In the end "feel" always wins with me. A gun that doesn't fit right isn't worth owning.

Thanks Chargar.

[BoolitBill]

I have never owned a Beretta but have shot a few of my friends and the HP beats it without question. To me, no 9mm feels as good as the Browning.

[sagamore-one]

You may want to try a CZ 75 compact. They feel good, point naturally , and are extremely well made.

[H.Callahan]

No contest. Definitely the Hi-Power.

[bhn22]

I've never met a Hi-Power that didn't rip up the web of my hand. Berettas are user friendly, and totally reliable.

Beretta

[wrench]

I've owned both, still own Hipowers, but my Beretta's are all 92 compact type 'M's, with the single stack mag.
Both totally reliable, both good looking guns, similar capacity. Beretta has a bigger grip, if you have big hands it might feel nice. It's a little too big for me.
The Hipower is so ergonomic, it's hard to believe it was designed over 75 years ago.
Try to shoot them both before you decide...but if I could only have one, it'd be the Hipower.

[btroj]

I've never met a Hi-Power that didn't rip up the web of my hand. Berettas are user friendly, and totally reliable.

Beretta

Do you have big hands? I Longish slender fingers and hands. I don't tend to get hammer bite due to this. This is part of the "feel".

[theperfessor]

I have rather large hands and used to get hammer bite with my HiPower. I welded on a beavertail extension about 1/2" long and then hot bent the hammer spur up just enough to clear it. No hammer bite and when I grab it it seems to lock firmly into my palm and the top of the web of my hand. Good index of direction also. In my hand it feels better than a 1911.

[220swiftfn]

IMHO, the Beretta is a chunky monkey, while the Hi-Power is just dam sexy...... Ergonomics with the Hi-Power are better for me (med. size hands, don't get bit either....:)


Dan

[Multigunner]

My HP nipped me a few times. You have to roll the web between thumb and fore finger in as you grip the butt.
Mine had the old style rowel hammer.
Later versions with the spur hammer never nipped, but I'd long before learned to roll into the grip instinctively.

No other handgun of any type fits my hand better than the P-35, and rapid fire point shooting is more controlable than I would have thought possible.
The manual safety is sort of small on the old models. I have long thumbs so I just carried hammer down on a chambered round most of the time.

The S&W 59 I carry these days is a much safer carry gun. It doesn't fit my hand nearly as well though.

The later versions of the P-35 have a few improvements. Some older versions can develop extractor problems and last I checked those type extractors can be expensive to replace. I passed on a old version awhile back because the extractor had lost temper and an aftermarket replacement cost $60 USD.
The more common exposed slot extractors are more durable and easier to replace, but more importantly its easier to spot a problem with these than to find out at the worst possible moment with the older type.
I also passed on a NAZI marked HP , but only due to the memory of FN employees murdered by the NAZIs when they refused to work for them. There was a plaque commemorating their self sacrifice at the factory.
Most WW2 production HP were returned to Belgium and refinished to be sold to European police departments, so the wartime finished pistols with intact NAZI acceptance marks aren't that common.
At some point the NAZIs deleted the magazine disconnect safety so one should check to be sure before depending on that feature, since the refinished pistols look like any other.

You can't go wrong with the Browning High Power, its a great pistol. There are a number of variations so best to look up the exact type before buying.

Some Argentine HP military models were found to not hold up to the hottest Mils Spec loads and many were damaged in service. All those I've shot or examined looked fine though, so I expect the damaged pistols were scrapped rather than sold off.
I used Super Vel ammo alot back in the day with no problems, but I'd avoid milsurp of unknown pressure levels and be careful of +P just the same.
I don't use hot loads in my S&W either.

The Berretta had its problems but they seem to have worked these out. I'd chose a recently manufactured version though so as not to inherit problems not yet solved when an older version was produced.
I haven't shot these enough to have formed a real opinion. They don't fit my hand as well as the HP but better than the S&W.

[btroj]

I am looking for this for my daughter as an 18th birthday gift. She has hands about the same size as mine. She likes my 1911 but doesn't shoot it very well. The lower recoil of the 9m. Should help even though the muzzle last is much louder.
Thanks for the replies, all have had good, valid info. I may just have to go to Cabelas this weekend and compare, they have a few of each. The Brownings were both used but that doesn't matter too much as long as all is in working order.

[GabbyM]

Handguns can be an individual thing. My favorite all time was an S&W M39-2. It fit my hand. I could close my eyes point at where I remembered a target was then hit it. Of course I traded it off on a Smith with a 13 shot mag. DUGH.

If you have loose change a Springfield 1911 in 9mm with the full integral barrel ramp so it feeds is a nice target gun. Played with one of those the other day that had the old man sights with wide rear notch. I could actually focus the sights. I’m 55 YO.

Had a Taurus 92 and gave it away. Have hung on to my S&W 659. Strong gun but the dual action triggers suck. Single action is to close to the frame so it takes real concentration to pull the trigger straight back. Then it’s a 3 ½ inch at 25 yards gun anyways.

If all you want is a light weight pack it , grab it then blast it gun. I’d get an M&P Smith.
For a gun to hit something I really liked that Springfield 1911 with the feed ramp on the barrel. Any other 1911 in 9mm I ever played with would jam one of ten shots. Lots of other good guns out there. Sigs and CZ’s are good. I’ve never played with an FN.

There’s a little routine to go through to pick a gun. Something like grip it then hold it up in position. If the sights don’t line up it does not fit you. There’s more to it than that but I can’t remember.

The Browning HP's are nice and have a good single action trigger if you get the right model. but they never fit my hand. They also have a rep for over sized bores. I’d get the CZ over a Browning.

[Ausglock]

G'day.
Rather than 9mm, I have a Kimber Stainless target II in 38 Super.
This is a great 1911 that can be (and is) loaded to 9mm velocity with Lee 356-125-2R and Lee 356-120-TC bullets.

I know 9mm brass is easier to find that 38 super. But it is an option.
All the best.

[GabbyM]

G'day.
Rather than 9mm, I have a Kimber Stainless target II in 38 Super.
This is a great 1911 that can be (and is) loaded to 9mm velocity with Lee 356-125-2R and Lee 356-120-TC bullets.

I know 9mm brass is easier to find that 38 super. But it is an option.
All the best.

38 Super is a great round for sure. But they take more powder and are very loud to shoot. Plus ammo is a self serve item. Off the top of my head I think I have 15,000 of 9mm cases around here. 38 Super is ballistics better than a 9mm but if you need a re supply you'll be out of luck. Personally I use revolvers for target and all sport use. Auto pistol is to carry as part of my kit in case Israel falls and I have to drag my old AARP but out of my Lazy Boy chair. Couple hours ago I posted what a great round a 32 mag is. But.

Back when I was a kid I could not understand why anyone would shoot a revolver. Then about the time I hit forty I figured out crawling around picking up brass sucks. So yes the 38 Super is great but I just shoot 44 revolver and stand up.

[GabbyM]

I am looking for this for my daughter as an 18th birthday gift. She has hands about the same size as mine. She likes my 1911 but doesn't shoot it very well. The lower recoil of the 9m. Should help even though the muzzle last is much louder.
Thanks for the replies, all have had good, valid info. I may just have to go to Cabelas this weekend and compare, they have a few of each. The Brownings were both used but that doesn't matter too much as long as all is in working order.

btroj

if this is a purse gun get a plastic S&W nine or even smaller.

I bought my daughters Kel Tec 380's. You can’t even feel the weight of the things in your hand. Off a bench with a wrist rest I can shoot a four inch group at 25 yards with the Kel Tec. After one year my girls gun showed a worn finish so she does take it with here. They live in AZ where that’s legal. I load them with a Lyman 100 grain TCFP. They’ll break a bone.

I taught my girls how to place shots to stop then kill an attacker. A trade secret not taught to IDIOT SWAT teams from what I see. Also nothing I’ll share on the world wide web.

Fact is I have a 44 mag revolver but it’s not likely I’ll have that in my pocket is it.

I like the little Kel Tec 380. There are some very small 9mm’s also but so what.

[Ausglock]

GabbyM.
Mate I know the feeling about getting old.
For the first time in 30 years, I have bought a Revolver.
S&W 586 4" with moonclips.

Too old to bend over and pickup cases.
Moonclips keep em all in one easy place to find.

[NickSS]

I have both guns you mention and the HP is the one I liike the best but as far as shooting my 92 is the more accurate of the two. However, Neither is my favorite choice. Mine would have to be my Baby Desert Eagle which is an Israili made CZ 75 clone with a few mods. Also a CZ 75B compact would be about the same gun and another good choice. Both feel as good or better in the hand than my HP and are the way to go as far as I am concerned.

[big dale]

I had a High Power for a couple of decades but never could get it to shoot smaller than 4inch groups at 25 yards. Loved the gun other than that. Have you considered having her try a Glock to see if she likes them. I have a couple of them, I like them a lot, and I find them no more or less accurate than my old High Power was. The baby Glock (model 27) is the right size for a purse gun.

Have fun with this stuff.

Big Dale

[btroj]

Definitely NOT a purse gun. This would be strictly a range use thing, possibly home defense in time.
I am leaning 9mm because of the availability of cheap ammo, cheap brass, easy to reload.
I have thought about a Glock but I find them to be so ugly, I just don't know.
This may be time to bite the bullet, so to speak, and pay the money to rent one at the local indoor range. Let her try some different things and see what she likes.

[midnight]

I am certainly not an authority on the 9mm. I always thought they were like bellybuttons, every one has one, that is until I found a mint S&W 59 in nickel. It looked so great I had to buy it. It shoots where I point it and never had a miss feed or extraction-ejection failure until I fed it Miha's 359-125 with penta pins. I doesn't like that nose configuration. For you Texas guys, I call it my barbeque gun, you know, the gun you wear on Sunday and to barbeques at the neighbors.

Bob

[bobthenailer]

I have 3 9mms a SA 1911 9mm , TZ 75 whitness & a kahr PM 9 all are accurate & reliable
perhaps the Karh cm9 with a 3 1/2 inch barrel would fit the bill @ $450.00 ? no safteys only a 6 lb smoothe double action type trigger pull, accurate , good sights , light weight easy to shoot
I liked the pm9 so much that i also bought a cw 45 and i already had a PA p12 with alloy frame

[Char-Gar]

Re: Browning hammer bite.

Some folks seem to get bite with the Browning hammer. It was less of a problem with the old style ring hammer. It has not been a problem with me, but I have had a Colt Govt. Model that did.

The solution is to take a little metal off the end of the offending hammer. Polish and touch up the blue and the problem goes away. The amount of metal depends on how much meat you have in your hand and how you hold the pistol.

[dragonrider]

Like others have said, the Hi-Power is the way to go. love mine. If I was going to be buried when I die it would be with me.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/PaulGauthier/Browning%20HP/BrowningHP002.jpg

[goste]

I also own both pistols. My HP, is a practical, with the packy. grips and rowel hammer, Even tho I can palm a basketball, I don't get hammer bite. The HP feels better in my hand.

I like the Berreta also, It feels real good and solid, but I don't shoot it as well, for some reason. My HP slugs out at .358-+. My Berreta at about .357.

My wife loves the HP over any of my nines, altho she has trouble racking this one..

You can't go wrong with either........

[Piedmont]

Old Hi Powers feel much better in my hand. When they went to the cast frame they made the gripframe more rectangular. The old ones are more oval. If you get an older one, depending on whether it is a MK II (in which case it will have an ambi safety and nonhumped barrel ramp), or a MKI you may need some gunsmith modifications, specifically a thumb safety you can use and taking the hump out of feed ramp, and maybe a trigger job.

Were I starting over I would just own the older ones. They are the ones that really feel good in the hand. Hardly anyone ever mentions this in print, probably because that won't sell advertising, telling how the discontinued gun feels better.

[DrB]

I owned a high power. I would make a terrible gun dealer as I hate to let anything go, but the high power I was glad to see go.

I think I know that part of it is whether you are a 1911 generation guy or not, but I just don't see personally how anyone likes one as compared to a glock or other modern "wonder nine."

+1 on the hammer bite... Well she never bit me, but she always looked like she wanted to.

I also didnt like the grip, maybe it was the angle.

I know there's a lot of guys who love 'em. I sold mine to one.

[big dale]

I resisted the Glocks fior a long time, but now I have a box of them. I started with the 10 mm then bought the model 27 and got a 9mm barrel for it also, then the model 21 in 45acp and lastly the model 24 with the 9mm and 357 Sig barrrels for it also.The only time any have ever had a hickup of any kind was when figuring out the seating depth for some of the cast boolits. Them are some UGLY SOB's, but they get a lot prettier since they don't screw up. You might also get her to try one of those baby eagles and simply buy her the one that puts the biggest grin on her face.

Have fun with this stuff.

Big Dale

[Patrick L]

One gun I truly lament selling was my Hi Power. What was I thinking??

Nothing against the Beretta, but in my mind there is NO comparison. The Hi Power is a connoisseur's gun. The Beretta is a great issue weapon, as are the various SIGs, Glocks, XDs, etc. But a Hi Power is for the man who likes fine things.

The Hi Power is definitely one of the best feeling guns ever, and if you put a set of thin wood grips on it (I think I had Spegel "Ultra Thin" rosewoods IIRC) it becomes absolutely out of this world. It was hard to believe there was a double stack magazine in there. I have fairly large, fleshy hands, and I never got bit. I had the spur hammer, not the round hole "rowel" type. If I was to do it again, I'd probably get a Cylinder & Slide hammer anyway just cause they look cool.

I replaced the trigger springs to lighten the trigger. Cylinder & Slide makes some good kits, as well as the above mentioned hammer, and I think maybe a prepped sear too. Curiously, I tried their wide trigger and didn't like it. The arch/sweep angle was too sharp for my tastes. I seem to remember reading in the last year or two that someone else is making an aftermarket trigger whose contours look really sweet, but I can't remember who. And yes, I removed the magazine disconnect as it will improve the trigger pull, but that's a personal choice.

Mine shot cast very well. I did have to experiment a bit, but not much. I do remember it tumbled the Lee TL truncated cone, which was the first boolit I tried. Several of them would hit the target sideways (but where they were aimed!) I ended up buying 1000 or so commercial cast RN type boolits as a stopgap, and they shot fine. I got rid of the gun before I shot them all up, and I never got around to trying another mold. The rest is history (and regrets.)

[EMC45]

HP no question about it! Have had the Beretta 92FS and have carried it in the military as well. The BHP is way better. I sold my Beretta. I have had 3 HPs. Now I have a MK3 and really enjoy it. Can't beat the HP. More accurate (in my experience) and more ergonomic (I have smaller hands).

[Char-Gar]

At the end of the day, it is all about which pistol feels best in your hand and shoots the way you want it to. I am not a fan of the 9mm round, but pistols for that round seem to accumulate in my house.


Right now I have:

1913 DWM Luger
SIG P239
Smith and Wesson 59
Browning HP
Glock 17

I have owned a dozen or so more 9mms of various makes. It was a tie for my least favorite between a Walter P-38 and the Beretta 92. They are gone with no regrets.

They have all been accurate enough for their intended purposes. The Browning, Smith 59 and the Luger all turn in very good groups. I have never shot the Glock for group size. It is like a garden hose or shovel in that it is a tool and nothing more. But for what it was designed to be, it is the pick of the litter, when really bad stuff happens.

I live just a two miles from the Rio Grande River and Mexico on the other side. These are dicey times down here. I am never more than a step or two away form the Glock and a handful of loaded magazines.

Back in the mid-80s I was poking around in Starkey's gun shop in El Paso Texas and found an NEI mold for a 9mm 120 grain SWC on a shelf. The box was a little ratty so it had been there for a while. This was at the time Walt Melander was still making these things down on Yandell Street in El Paso. The bullet had a nose like the H&G 59, but the body was a tad long as compared to the 45 version.

The bullets cast from this mold weighted around 125 grains, plus or minus a hair. I size them .358 and load them over a dose of AA5. These loads have given accuracy at least as good as decent factory ammo in all of my pistols. I am talking 9mm here. I have not tried them in the Glock yet and probably will not. The Glock is not a toy, it is a tool.

[robertbank]

Of the two choices you list I would buy neither. The HP is a great, but dated design. Unless you want to spend money on a trigger job the HP was never blessed with a decent trigger and at best it is rough. It is and was, a very nice pistol but there other designs today that are as nice and can do specific jobs better.

I guess it depends on what you want the gun for. If it is competitions/self defense or you have a preference for steel guns then I would look no further than the CZ line of pistols. The Compact PCR is what I would carry if I could. The guns well built and very accurate. If you are looking at IDPA then the 75B or 85 Combat are good choices in 9MM for SSP division. The CZ's have a reputation for quality build, accuracy, durability and reliability. The CZ's have a very low bore axis which makes for very fast follow up shots.

For self defense full size then I would look at the S&W M&P or Glock. Both are utilitarian and offer reliability with combat accuracy.

Personally I think the SIGS are over priced and over rated. If you can get one made in Germany it is worth a look. The American made SIGS can be spotty when it comes to build quality.

Take Care

Bob

[subsonic]

Let her pick the hi-power.

[btroj]

Let her pick the hi-power.

Sadly, she is just like me. Nobody "picks" for either of us. She will listen to advice but ultimately will make up her own mind.

[shotstring]

If the OP were to rent both guns at a range and spend even 10 minutes with each of them, I would think the answer would be obvious. The OP might prefer either one, but one will stand out because these are two of the most different 9mm autos available.

The Beretta is large...very large and needs a large hand to hold it comfortably. On the other hand, the browning is one of the smallest frames on a double stack 9mm and feels much better in a smaller hand.

But most importantly, they are in two completely different worlds - one being double action and the other single action. I don't know of anyone that shoots that doesn't have an opinion and a preference on which of these styles he/she prefers. The Browning is an older style, as was mentioned, and needs to be carried cocked and locked like a 1911. Not recommended for anyone that doesn't spend a whole lot of time with their handgun. On the other hand, double action like the Beretta is more novice proof and less intimidating to get into action by the casual shooter.

Best of both worlds - the old CZ 75 with both double action or single action if preferred, a small enough grip for any size hand, built strong out of steel and accurate as they come out of the box.

I have no axe to grind as I own them all - 2 Brownings, CZ 75, Sig 228 (German) and 229 (American), old model Beretta and even a 9mm short round in a Walther along with a 9mm S & W snub revolver.

The CZ shoots and handles the best of the lot.

[subsonic]

My wife loves revolvers. She hated all automatic pistols - until she fired some.

The only ones she will choose to fire on her own are a really nice Kimber Custom (not Custom II) 1911 .45 that belongs to a friend (unless he leaves it unattended near her) and my Ruger MKII. Some holiday soon she's going to get her own Kimber.

[btroj]

I have a 1911, she doesn't shoot well with it at all. She does much better with a revolver.
Had not really looked at them but will have to consider the Cz 75. I may have to do a few rentals to find out but that isn't too much to spend to get the decision right.

[btroj]

Shot 50 rounds from a rental CZ75 today. I really liked it. Very paintable to me. Trigger is a bit odd with the creep and no solid break point but easy to learn. Accuracy was plenty good for my purposes. I see one in my future.

To those of you with a CZ- how large do the bores tend to run? I will slug anything I get but wonder if I need a 357 or 358 sizer. I have a 359 but wonder if that will make rounds that won't chamber.

Thanks to all for the info.

[Floydster]

I have a CZ 75b SS and a 75 D PCR, they both slug at .355+, I run all my cast bullets at .357 with great accuracy.
CZ is the go to 9mm in my opinion.
Floydster

[jameslovesjammie]

My buddie's 75B slugs at .356. My 75B .40 slugs at .400.

Also, the triggers smooth out quite a bit with shooting, but a little stoning does wonders.