Why I'm still not making bullets [Archive]

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gitano

06-22-2011, 05:21 PM

Below is the exchange between Dave Corbin http://www.corbins.com/index.htm and I on a purchase I made two months ago. My emailed words in black - Corbin's in red.

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Skvorc
To: sales@corbins.com
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 10:28 AM
Subject: Order # 2972

Dear Sales@Corbins.com,

I placed an order on April 14th, 2011 at – according to your email – 12:10:53 PDT. The order number is 2972. As of today, June 20, 2011, I have not received that merchandize. Please advise regarding the status of that order.

Paul Skvorc
Director, Research and Development
Biopar, LLC
P.O. Box 870503
Wasilla, AK 99687

Ph: (907)376-8097
Fax:(907)376-8097
Mobile: (907)301-9995
pskvorc@biopar.com

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Here's his FIRST response:

From: sales@corbins.com [mailto:dave@swage.com]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:42 PM
To: Paul Skvorc
Subject: Re: Order # 2972

Thanks for your message. I have the order pending for the .323 3-die set FJFB-3-H.

We are working on a backlog of about 650 jobs at the moment, and have been running anywhere from 3 to 18 months backlogged for years - decades actually.

For more than 40 years, we've been making dies at the lowest cost for top quality tooling, and as a consequence, nearly all of those years have been spent making orders from a backlog list.

The only fair way to treat everyone is to take the jobs in the order received. Sometimes we find that an older job matches a later one, and so it makes sense to do two of them at once, leveraging the setup and preparation time. It really does not take much longer to make two or three of a given part at once. All of the time is in getting prepared: engineering drawings, shop orders, orders for material, allocating machine time and people to specific stages of the work, and so forth. The actual "making" part of it isn't very time consuming by comparison. So, when possible, we make as many of a given size and shape and kind of part as we have on order before moving to the next older order. This can expedite later jobs, but it is not predictable. An older job could be changed at any time by the customer, throwing off any speculation about "when" for later similar jobs.

There are only three components to the production triangle. Changing any two of them will automatically fix the third leg.
We have delivery time, cost, and quality to work with.

Quality is easiest to shorten, in order to get faster delivery. Other swage die makers have taken this route most often in the past. They are no longer in business, and we are, so it tells me that the reason people are willing to wait so long and make repeat orders for decades must be related to keeping quality high. It is very easy to skip steps, use metals that are easier to machine and easier to locate on the market, skip lengthy heat treatment procedures, not use diamond lapping by hand and not make bullets in every die to make sure they work right. But seeing how many other firms have done exactly that and are no longer here tells me that is a mistake.
So I must leave the quality leg of the triangle where it is or even strive to make it greater.

That leaves cost and time.

Raising the price would reduce the number of people who could afford to swage bullets. That would lighten my workload and let me make the remaining orders more quickly, at a higher margin of profit. So I could shorten delivery time, keep the quality high, and just simply double or triple prices. But I resist this approach because, first, my goal was to make swaging a popular and affordable tool for shooters, and second, because I don't need to. We are surviving and thriving as it is, and more people can afford the tools this way. The nearest comparable quality swaging equipment available today is from 3 to 5 times more costly than ours and is no better. If this were not so, I would be perfectly happy to contact a competitor and offer to buy them out or simply purchase all their production capability to build our tools. (We sell more in a 30 day period than the entire rest of the swaging tool industry does in a year, so I have no doubt we could adsorb two or three other firms' production output.)

But when I go to another firm with such proposals, I find that their production cost is so high that they cannot begin to provide us with tooling for anything close to our actual selling price for it! We've developed the semi-custom die production method to a fine art and have combined standardized basic tool designs and parts with custom shapes and diameters in a unique way, which reduces the cost by a huge factor.

Even if we doubled our prices and used the increased margin and reduced order volume to build a larger plant, hire more people, buy more machines, and increase our output, it would not be enough to cut the lead time from 18 months to 30, 60, or even 90 days. The math works out to about a six month lead time. This is 1/3 of what we have now, but even so, I find that it would not make enough difference to my clients to compensate for what it costs. Someone who can plan 6 months out can also handle 18 months out in 99% of the cases, especially if the trade-off is a 50% reduction in cost!

So we have to leave the cost at as low a level as is practical to get the job done right. That leaves only one side of the triangle, which is therefore not adjustable: time.

But I have figured out a way to change the physics a bit.

If a person is anxious and believes that a 50% discount for having the equipment delivered sometime between now and 18 months, without a fixed or known delivery date, is NOT worth the trade-off, then I can bring in a crew on overtime for what we call "RUSH OVERTIME" work.

I must pay them 1.5 times regular wages, and I must pay taxes, insurance, and other costs on this extra pay, so the work actually costs me 2x as much. Therefore I must charge 2x as much, since the cost of a die is almost entirely labor (the cost of the metal is not significant compared to what must be done to it).

If you want the items within a 30 day period guaranteed, and believe that this is worth 2x the price of unspecified delivery time (usually within 18 months, however) then you can ask for any part of the order to be made on rush overtime basis.

This is fair to the other folks, who will not be put behind any more as a result. In fact, it moves your work out of the way of later orders, so they actually benefit. The people waiting patiently for 18 months will not be affected, and the ones who ordered after you will be moved up a little.

I cannot offer rush overtime in December. This is the one month when we will not have enough weekends available due to holidays and prior rush overtime jobs which always pile up in late November.

But any time thereafter, I can move any die or set of dies to Rush Overtime status and finish it within 45 days.
Considering that comparable quality dies usually cost 3 to 5 times more than ours on regular time, our Rush Overtime pricing is still cheaper and faster than the alternatives. I just don't have enough hours in the year to provide 45 day delivery even at 2x the price, to every order. Therefore, I just offer it as an option and don't try to make it the normal way of selling dies, as I could not do that many orders that quickly. We have already found, after 40 years of trying, that we will never "catch up" and have inventory all the time in every caliber.

Any items such as jackets, lead wire, presses, and tools which are usable for all calibers are not part of the rush overtime deal. If we have them, they will ship as soon as you want them. If we do not have them, paying for overtime labor won't make them appear any faster, as these items are either purchased in large lots and have certain lead times regardless, or else must be made in progressive manner finishing a large quantity at each stage before moving to the next. It is only the dies, in most cases, which would be subject to rush overtime.

Let me know if you would like this set made on rush overtime and I will get it on the weekend schedule with a crew devoted to nothing but that job.

D.R. Corbin, President
Corbin Mfg & Supply, Inc.
PO Box 2659, 600 Industrial Circle, White City, OR 97503

dave@corbins.com
order on-line at: www.SwageDies.com
Fax: 541-826-8669 (avail 24/7)
Phone: 541-826-5211 (Mon-Thurs)
A registered veteran-owned small business
DUNS No.010743615
NAICS: 332721 CAGE: 0MWN8
PSG: 3419 FSC: 3419

Here's my response.

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Skvorc
To: 'sales@corbins.com'
Cc: 'Justin Stiefel'
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:12 PM
Subject: RE: Order # 2972

OK – However, when I placed the order, the ad said that they we “in stock and ready to ship”.

Paul Skvorc

Here's his NEXT response:

From: Dave Corbin [mailto:dave@swage.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:08 PM
To: Paul Skvorc
Subject: Re: Order # 2972

I'm sorry about the message. That's the only problem with advertising in stock items where there is only one... they get sold quickly, and the message is read by more than one person in the meanwhile. You are not under any obligation to take them if they were purchased with the understanding that they would be ready now. (They were, but someone else got there first!) Of course, you're never under any obligation to take anything unless it's a custom-made-for-you, prepaid item, and even then we try to be as flexible as we can afford to be.

I have a 308 6-S set on the shelf, and a .284 6-S set also, if that would be of any help...

Also a 9.3mm (.366) set.

D.R. Corbin, President
Corbin Mfg & Supply, Inc.
PO Box 2659, 600 Industrial Circle, White City, OR 97503

dave@corbins.com
order on-line at: www.SwageDies.com
Fax: 541-826-8669 (avail 24/7)
Phone: 541-826-5211 (Mon-Thurs)
A registered veteran-owned small business
DUNS No.010743615
NAICS: 332721 CAGE: 0MWN8
PSG: 3419 FSC: 3419

Here's my response:

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Skvorc
To: 'Dave Corbin'
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:36 PM
Subject: RE: Order # 2972

No thank you regarding the other calibers.

Do I understand correctly that it is likely to be 18 months (16 now) before I receive the 8mm items?

Paul Skvorc

Here's his latest response:

From: Dave Corbin [mailto:dave@swage.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 10:47 AM
To: Paul Skvorc
Subject: Re: Order # 2972

I don't really know when it comes to delivery dates. I have about 600 jobs in the queue, oldest ones from 2009, and we're working as fast as our fingers can move. As soon as one of them that is currently oldest turns out to be a .323 like yours, we'll make yours and that one while it is set up. Could be any time. Won't be longer than 24 months for sure, but as to how much sooner, I don't have any way to guess.

I can make it on rush overtime within 45 days guaranteed, which costs 2x for overtime labor, or I can make it for half as much if we don't have a specific delivery time. That makes it fair to everyone, as overtime is weekends when we don't normally have anyone here, so it doesn't slow anyone's order to do that.

There isn't a clock running on when we get your specific dies finished. It doesn't tick down day by day until we get to yours. What happens is we work from the oldest order forward, and match later jobs to the oldest one we are currently making. That can be anything. Sometimes the oldest job is five pages of work with a dozen calibers on it, and only the core swage die matches yours...but we make the core swage for you as well as for that one. And put it in a box with your name on it.

Then the next oldest order might have nothing to do with yours, and so forth, but then we come to one that has the same caliber but a different point form die shape. So we make the punches and the core seater, and put that into your box also. And then more old orders, etc., and finally we come to one that matches your caliber and your point form shape, so we pull the core seater and match the new point former to it, and have your order finished.

When does all that happen? That's a question for the Oracle at Delphi, beyond my pay grade! Might be tomorrow, might be next week, might be all the above plus another month for the last part... complicated by the fact that any order might be changed by the customer any time, so trying to plan ahead gets to be a guessing game.

If we didn't make top end dies for middle range pricing, we wouldn't have so many orders. Raising all the prices would help cut the lead time and make more on less work, which is what my accountants want me to do and have urged for decades. But my goal from the first was to make swaging more affordable for shooters and still provide a stable business that could employ top end diemakers. What we're doing has worked for 40 years. I can offer fast delivery and top quality, if the price is more. I can offer lower pricing and top quality, if the time is longer. It's a triangle and the last side is set by the other two. Overtime is possible. Unspecified delivery time but for half the cost of overtime is also available. It provides a choice rather than forcing everyone to do the same thing. It's the best I can come up with!

D.R. Corbin, President
Corbin Mfg & Supply, Inc.
PO Box 2659, 600 Industrial Circle, White City, OR 97503

dave@corbins.com
order on-line at: www.SwageDies.com
Fax: 541-826-8669 (avail 24/7)
Phone: 541-826-5211 (Mon-Thurs)
A registered veteran-owned small business
DUNS No.010743615
NAICS: 332721 CAGE: 0MWN8
PSG: 3419 FSC: 3419

Here's my last response:

Mr. Corbin,

I’m beginning to wonder if this is some sort of test.

I order the items on April 14th, 2011, and am told on the phone (I called about shipping costs and availability), that they are “in stock and ready to ship”. My credit card is billed immediately. (See attached copy of credit card statement.)

Two months later, June 20th, not having received the items ordered and paid for, I inquire as to the status of the order. I am told it could be “3 months to 18 months”. (See below.)

When I point out that I was told that the items were “in stock and ready to ship” when I ordered them, you “check” and see that I ordered them from your “in stock” page and apologize because “somebody else got them first”. How convenient for you.

Now in your latest response, the delivery date has been extended to 24 months. I’m not being a smart-aleck when I ask if it will be 36 months when you respond to this message?

Honestly, I don’t know how you stay in business. That’s not a snide remark. I am fully aware that you have been in business for a long time. So have I, and in more than 20 years I’ve NEVER seen this sort of service or performance. It is genuinely baffling how you continue to do business in the private sector. I am also aware (according to your website) that you have substantial government contracts. I can only assume that you “take care of” your “big clients” first, and let the “little ones” twist in the wind. If they don’t like it, they can go elsewhere.

I’m NOT cancelling this order. Frankly, when you took my money, we had a contract based on what your website said and what I was told on the phone. It is unethical and unprofessional to tell people one thing, take their money based on that representation, and then tell them “tough, you’ve got to wait TWO YEARS” for a product that was “in stock and ready for shipment”. This isn’t about your business management skills, it’s about basic honesty and business integrity.

Sincerely,
Paul Skvorc

This is the second time Corbin Manufacturing has pulled this "Sorry, someone else got them before you" on me. That's why I called to verify that he actually had them. He SERIOUSLY needs some competition. I honestly have NEVER seen ANYTHING like this. I'm sure his loyal followers will undoubtedly rally to his defense.

Bullshop

06-22-2011, 06:25 PM

Well I must be one to rally to his defense in saying that D Corbin will deliver in half the time that it takes R Corbin to deliver the same product.
What takes 48 months from one can be done in a mere 24 months by the other both having the items in stock.

gitano

06-22-2011, 06:51 PM

"both having the items in stock"

So do I take that to mean that both Corbins have told you they had items "in stock", then took 24 to 48 months to deliver them?

Paul

7of7

06-22-2011, 07:10 PM

I placed an order with him on 4/25/11,... 2992... just a point forming die, not a complete set..

Bullshop

06-22-2011, 09:22 PM

Well to be honest I dont know how long the wait was. After some long period of time I canceled the order. This after receiving part of the order ( a press) and a part of the order not being usable (a mold) so had to go back.
After approaching two years in desperation I canceled the order.
Basically I was told there are more important orders that have taken precedence (military) so mine would be delayed.
I was able to find what I wanted on the used market so have given up on the Corbin brothers. I still have a WH press from R. and the only die I have for it is a 22 cal core swage die. It was supposed to have been a complete set for 22 cal.
I have even had the same experience with Sport Flight (Mr Gator Check Larry Blackman)
I ordered three presses and the die sets and after a year and being told the presses were in the final stages of painting for my order then Nothing. Nothing further not even a response to calls.
That's it I am done with all those people. I would rather try to by nuclear material on the internet than try to deal with them again. I think I will have greater success getting the nuke material.
I dont know what it is with the swage tool business but it seems a very mysterious area to delve into.

Heavy lead

06-22-2011, 09:39 PM

While I'll freely admit I know nothing of swaging, except conceptually, seems as if a vacuum exists for a new, or more manufactures. Especially in this job market with so many unemployed skilled people out there.
Some backlog is good for a business, running so far behind that someone possibly interested in a product, such as myself, won't even entertain the idea simply because of the horror stories such as these. You simply kill your own market.

rbt50

06-23-2011, 01:12 AM

i also camceled two orders that i have been waiting for over a year and a half.

Spanners

06-23-2011, 03:30 AM

Mountain Prepper

06-23-2011, 03:47 AM

A bit of honesty.

As much as I may sound like a Corbin “fan” this troubles me, it is a situation I have been a part of myself.

I have waited in several cases at least 24 months for orders from Corbin.

I truly dislike D Corbin’s business model and always have - what happens when he reaches an age where he cannot complete a day’s business or passes - what happens to the orders? What happens to the shop, the supply of dies, the die makers?

Reloading is a 1 out of 300 gun owner proposition (and that could be hopeful numbers) swaging on the other hand - I have come across only two in person “in the wild” (outside of the benchrest shooters). Possibly there are two swaging handloaders out of every three thousand handloaders?

Even with numbers as low as that Corbin is backed up to the gills. That shop is now at least two years backed up, has been, and continues to be behind on orders at least from the early 80’s (from my first order).

He has refused to catch up, to hire and train more skilled labor and is happy with the business model he has built. I for one will more than likely never buy another product from Corbin except repair parts because I am not willing in this day and age to pay-in-advance for ANYTHING - ever.

It is far to arrogant in todays world to expect this 1950’s style business model - to sit on and use someone’s money - except for very obscure custom products. That form letter you received has not changed much in over thirty years (I know I received one almost word for word the same in the 1980’s and with every order after that), a new method or better form letters packed with excuses would be nice. A set of employees devoted to just the popular calibers and placing the products into an on-line store with an updated e-comerce site would smooth things out. A far more accurate method of scheduling is also possible with production software that is available.

I am concerned that he has on-line ordering and no product counting included in the shopping cart - that is not excusable in todays business world.

He could make ten times the dies he makes in the common calibers and sell them all - it will never happen - he simply is not willing to step up production and add labor.

All that above written - I continue to say the product is excellent, the quality of the bullets made with the dies is on par with dies three times the cost (with a lower working life of 750,000 to 1,000,000 in-spec bullets vs. 2,500,000 to 3,000,000).

It looks as if other artisan die makers are in similar positions, we need new blood if that means mass produced product (even of foreign origin) then so-be-it.

Spanners

06-23-2011, 03:53 AM

In his defence - I dont think he charges until order is ready to be made (once you get to the front of the queue)
At least he hasnt charged me yet???

Mountain Prepper

06-23-2011, 03:59 AM

As I keep saying; hire 1 more tool maker (making 3) - reduce your backlog by 1/3, increase profits by 50% and gain MORE customers who actually will spend money rather than shy away due to having to wait 2 years for something.

Something he struggles to grasp I think as all you get back from him is 2 pages of dribble trying to justify delays and costs.

Reason why hes been in business for 40 yrs is that he prob still trying to get the original startup jobs out hahahaha

The same type of thinking that has a $150 per hour profitable production working “saving money” on a $40 per hour plumber by directing that skilled worker to glue some PVC pipe under the women’s bathroom sink...

You would be shocked at how common that is.

Mountain Prepper

06-23-2011, 04:12 AM

From the website.

email me to confirm and get more details. Please remember that email usually is the quickest way to reach me. I try to answer at least 300 emails every single day, and sometimes, I even succeed!

E-mail, phone and on-line secretary, how many hours of valuable time is spent on 300 e-mails?

Find a facebook obsessed post-menapausal grandmother that has hours of computer time under he belt. Many of them need money to pay for a scrapbooking, cooking, or sewing habit and would jump at the chance to get out of the house and make some scratch. Computer use is more common at that age than you would expect, they are good workers some with great people skills and multi-task like - well, like a grandmother!

Mountain Prepper

06-23-2011, 04:19 AM

In his defence - I dont think he charges until order is ready to be made (once you get to the front of the queue)
At least he hasnt charged me yet???

All of my orders were pre-paid if I remember correctly, that first order was 100% pre-pay or at least 50% I don’t know if I even have the paperwork anymore. It would be a good question to check to see what the current policy is.

Utah Shooter

06-23-2011, 11:59 AM

Something he struggles to grasp I think as all you get back from him is 2 pages of dribble trying to justify delays and costs.

I bet you he has it on a copy and paste from windows. That or stop tryping so darn much and get out there and help making stuff.:shock:

gitano

06-23-2011, 12:53 PM

In his defence - I dont think he charges until order is ready to be made (once you get to the front of the queue)
At least he hasnt charged me yet???
You are seriously mistaken, and either you didn't read the whole thread or you're calling me a liar. I sent him a copy of my credit card statement proving I paid at the time of the order and that he took the money. If you have an order in and haven't paid, then you DO NOT have an order in. That's what happened to me the LAST time I tried to get some dies.

Honestly, I am both relieved and surprised at these responses. I fully expected a great cry of "foul" and all sorts of attacks on me. I am sorry and disappointed to see so many others with the same experience. It is good to know that I am not being "picked on" by Corbin.

I'm not blowing smoke when I say that my business partners and I are looking into what it will take to set up a legitimate competition in this market.

Speaking of markets, I readily acknowledge that the market is fairly small. However, I believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY that a LARGE part of why the market is so small, is that NO ONE has anything CLOSE to reasonable delivery times. Even custom reloading dies from Hornady only take 12 weeks AT THE MAX.

Anyway, thanks for the commiseration and for not trying to make up 'possible' scenarios to excuse this poor behavior.

Paul

Mountain Prepper

06-23-2011, 01:30 PM

You are seriously mistaken, and either you didn't read the whole thread or you're calling me a liar. I sent him a copy of my credit card statement proving I paid at the time of the order and that he took the money. If you have an order in and haven't paid, then you DO NOT have an order in. That's what happened to me the LAST time I tried to get some dies.

I don’t think he aimed any of that at you in particular nor did it look like an attack of any sort.

Honestly, I am both relieved and surprised at these responses. I fully expected a great cry of "foul" and all sorts of attacks on me. I am sorry and disappointed to see so many others with the same experience. It is good to know that I am not being "picked on" by Corbin.

No, we just agree that the Corbin business model does not fit modern times, he is not picking on you, he does that for everyone.

I'm not blowing smoke when I say that my business partners and I are looking into what it will take to set up a legitimate competition in this market.

Please! the market is there.

Speaking of markets, I readily acknowledge that the market is fairly small. However, I believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY that a LARGE part of why the market is so small, is that NO ONE has anything CLOSE to reasonable delivery times. Even custom reloading dies from Hornady only take 12 weeks AT THE MAX.

In stock, on-time, and reasonable price - king of the market.

Anyway, thanks for the commiseration and for not trying to make up 'possible' scenarios to excuse this poor behavior.

There is no excuse it is a standard business practice you see in many artisan businesses it is flawed but it is common.

Mountain Prepper

06-23-2011, 01:34 PM

And none of what I post about my protest of flawed business models reflects on the quality of the product - it is excellent if not rare and perpetually late.

Utah Shooter

06-23-2011, 03:27 PM

I don’t think he aimed any of that at you in particular nor did it look like an attack of any sort.

Right. A bit jumpy?

mold maker

06-23-2011, 03:31 PM

Loosing military contract orders to competition, would speed up his ability, to produce single orders. There is lots of cash flowing somewhere, and I doubt if it's from us. Well not directly anyway.
Getting a good ride from the Feds, doesn't offer much incentive, to treat potential small customers, with much respect.
They could suddenly have no orders except ours, and a backlog could/would sustain them, till the next biggie.

randmplumbingllc

06-23-2011, 06:22 PM

Mountain Prepper

06-23-2011, 09:21 PM

gitano

06-23-2011, 10:11 PM

Look, the solution is REAL simple.

If you don't like the way D Corbin, R Corbin or any other die makers do business....DON'T DO BUSINESS WITH THEM.

It is your choice, as to where you spend your money.

You also have the option to make your own dies and / or start your own swage die business.

It isn't as easy as it sounds, to make QUALITY dies.

It is YOUR choice and YOUR money. Just like it is YOUR choice to not buy "factory" bullets, and to make your own swaged bullets.

In my humble opinion.

Ahh... Finally. As expected...

However, you're actually quite wrong.

MY point wasn't about "doing business with him", it was about "bait and switch" tactics. Every state I am aware of has LAWS regarding "bait and switch". When a buyer CALLS and gets VERBAL CONFIRMATION that a product is "in stock and ready to ship" and then gets told TWO MONTHS LATER that "you got beat out by someone else" AND the seller TAKES PAYMENT, and tells the buyer that they can expect to wait TWO YEARS for the item that was REPRESENTED as "in stock and ready to ship", the buyer didn't have a priori knowledge that the seller was notorious for "baiting and switching" AND taking money under false pretenses and has no reason "not to do business with him".

If you like D.R. Corbin, good for you. If so, I'm betting you don't wait two years for dies from him. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that you had a new set of 8mm dies from him.

With regard to being "a bit jumpy"...

I wasn't being "sensitive" regarding the pre-payment comments. Pre-payment under false pretenses is a BIG part of the complaint I have with D. R. Corbin. If he JUST told me that he had the item "in stock and ready to ship" but didn't take my money, there would be only stupidity involved. However, REPEATEDLY taking people's money under false pretenses (as demonstrated in this thread) isn't just "poor inventory control". There is a pattern of deception. I don't care how good his product is, intentionally deceiving people and keeping their money FOR TWO YEARS is not a small matter.

For anyone that doubts the veracity of my assertion that I have already been billed, I'd be happy to post the credit card statement that I attached to the above emails that were sent to D.R. Corbin.

Paul

7of7

06-23-2011, 11:20 PM

Bryan27

06-24-2011, 12:25 AM

This thread just goes to demonstrate, as has been said over and over thousands of times, that there needs to be more suppliers of swaging dies. I'd love to be able to make my own and consider doing so, but being realistic with myself I just don't have the skill or equipment to do so. I've contacted several of the reloading die manufactures: Lee and RCBS off the top of my head about the possibility of running swage dies sets for jacketed bullets and basically got the feeling that they don't see it as a viable market. They already have the equipment to make carbide dies to a high degree of accuracy, inexpensively. You can buy a 3 die carbide set of pistol reloading dies for $50 all day long, less really. I don't see how they could lose money at 5 or even 10 times the cost. I'd buy a set of dies for every rifle caliber I own at $3-500 a set. I wouldn't be looking for something fully custom or anything. Make a 223 die with X ogive, offer boat tail and flat base and make enough of them to be worth their time. The Henry Ford approach of "you can have whatever color you want, as long as it's black.", would probably cover 90% of the market who just want to make our own bullets. Leave the fully custom stuff to corbin and the like. Guys that want to design their own bullet shape to their exact specifications or want a less popular caliber wouldn't be a good fit for an off the shelf option, but many of us would be. How many guys would be swaging their own bullets if it was more economical? I know a lot of reloaders that have considered it at one time, did a little bit of research on the expendatures and wait times involved and the whole thing takes on a feeling of too much bs and hoops to jump through to get started.......

I think if enough people started contacting Lee, RCBS, Redding and others one of them might catch on that there IS a market for their taking.

rant over.

randmplumbingllc

06-24-2011, 01:35 AM

Ahh... Finally. As expected...

However, you're actually quite wrong.

MY point wasn't about "doing business with him", it was about "bait and switch" tactics. Every state I am aware of has LAWS regarding "bait and switch". When a buyer CALLS and gets VERBAL CONFIRMATION that a product is "in stock and ready to ship" and then gets told TWO MONTHS LATER that "you got beat out by someone else" AND the seller TAKES PAYMENT, and tells the buyer that they can expect to wait TWO YEARS for the item that was REPRESENTED as "in stock and ready to ship", the buyer didn't have a priori knowledge that the seller was notorious for "baiting and switching" AND taking money under false pretenses and has no reason "not to do business with him".

If you like D.R. Corbin, good for you. If so, I'm betting you don't wait two years for dies from him. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that you had a new set of 8mm dies from him.

With regard to being "a bit jumpy"...

I wasn't being "sensitive" regarding the pre-payment comments. Pre-payment under false pretenses is a BIG part of the complaint I have with D. R. Corbin. If he JUST told me that he had the item "in stock and ready to ship" but didn't take my money, there would be only stupidity involved. However, REPEATEDLY taking people's money under false pretenses (as demonstrated in this thread) isn't just "poor inventory control". There is a pattern of deception. I don't care how good his product is, intentionally deceiving people and keeping their money FOR TWO YEARS is not a small matter.

For anyone that doubts the veracity of my assertion that I have already been billed, I'd be happy to post the credit card statement that I attached to the above emails that were sent to D.R. Corbin.

Paul

If you feel you have a valid claim of "bait and switch", call the Attorney Generals Office and file a complaint.

You always have the option of disputing your credit card, depending on the time passed, State and Federal law.

And NO, I don't have any 8mm dies.

Seems though there are legal actions that can be taken, to recoup your funds.......and then.....you don't have to do business with his company anymore.

THAT was my point.

I am sure the man isn't trying to "run off" with your money. If you have ever spoke to him, in person, you would know that.

randmplumbingllc

06-24-2011, 02:07 AM

The point is that the public needs to know, one of the great things about the internet is that reviews are open to debate positive and negative.

I would be the last one to say the quality of the Corbin product is lacking, I can on the other hand explain why I will no longer do business with them without changes unless forced to by repair needs.

And to be honest while this does take skill, someone not Corbin is making the dies for Speer, Sierra bullets, Nosler and others. With the current loss of jobs a supply of skilled labor should be out there available.

And quality dies are common - it is just that other industries have more demand and more available cash flow - lets see Corbin or others or larger manufacturing.

See, that is your choice to not do business with them anymore.

I am quite sure there is a reason that these die makers don't hire more people. I know for a fact,that more employee's CAN = more problems then it is worth. I won't speak for the Corbins, but will speak for myself.

Again, I don't know their reasons for the way they do business, but it is their business. They can run it how they feel fit. That is what makes America great !

All that I can say, is that I have done business with D Corbin a few times. Quality products, fast service ("in stock items", not "custom"), I even had a couple of small warranty issues, which were addressed promptly.

I had lots of questions and Mr. D Corbin spent the time to explain his answers to me.

In my opinion, the man has a small core of employee's that he can trust and it is probably easier to keep the company smaller, without having to purchase more, expensive equipment and train new employee's.

I have talked to D Corbin at length. He is quite an interesting guy. If anyone ever gets a chance to pick his brain, he will wow you with the story of how he got started, really cool story about Ted Smith, his mentor and MANY others.

All I can say, is that I have had nothing but good dealings with D Corbin.

Do I wish his dies cost less ? Do I wish their wait time was less ?........SURE

I can't speak in R Corbin or any of the other major die makers, but D Corbin has been nothing but fair, honest and helpful......to me.

randmplumbingllc

06-24-2011, 02:30 AM

I haven't really had any problems with Dave Corbin. I have been to his shop, for assistance, and he was very helpful. I placed an order for a 4S point forming die... (30 cal) and wasn't charged. I did some scale drawings and figured that I could go with either a 4S or 8S. I sent him an email, and he responded that he did have an 8S in stock. That was today. I checked, and today, my card was charged.
Of course, 30 cal is more of a common caliber than 8mm.. (I think)
I do agree, that he could use to hire a couple additional machinists. I would also venture to say, that he could also benefit from a different production tracking tool... Not sure what he currently uses... but it seems like he could or should be able to do better on his backlog, or at least give a good estimate of delivery times.
I don't think any of his equipment is CNC either. There would be a benefit to having that capability.. one could produce quite a bit, ready to do the finishing work. Of course, that wouldn't be for the custom stuff, that would still be done by hand, making the reamer for the die, then making the blank for the honing process, and then making the die, and honing it to the specific dimension.
I do understand what is being said here, and it all does have merit. There are many improvements that could be made to shorten the lead time.
I just haven't had any problems with getting what I need.
I will post when I get the point forming die.

See....everyone thinks it is sooo easy to just hire a few machinists. There is lots more to it then just hiring a few guys. You have to have equipment for them to run. Eveyone just can't "share" lathes and mills.

That all cost MONEY.

I really think the man does not need more business and his feelings won't be hurt if you buy from someone else. He actually told me the exact thing.

As far as why swage dies are so much more then reloading dies .......they are two complete different animals. Apples to oranges......not even close to the same thing.

The pressure involved on the swage die is a thousand times more then a reloading die. There is really more to it then most think. Reloading dies can just be stamped out, swage dies can't.

DukeInFlorida

06-24-2011, 07:12 AM

Most businesses that find themselves that far behind do the following:

1) Hire more employees
2) Purchase more machines
3) Ship faster as a result of #1 and #2.........

Methinks that they are not operating a business as much as Mr Corbin operating a "hobby" where he is the ONE who is making everything.

7of7

06-24-2011, 09:12 AM

See....everyone thinks it is sooo easy to just hire a few machinists. There is lots more to it then just hiring a few guys. You have to have equipment for them to run. Eveyone just can't "share" lathes and mills.

That all cost MONEY.

I really think the man does not need more business and his feelings won't be hurt if you buy from someone else. He actually told me the exact thing.

As far as why swage dies are so much more then reloading dies .......they are two complete different animals. Apples to oranges......not even close to the same thing.

The pressure involved on the swage die is a thousand times more then a reloading die. There is really more to it then most think. Reloading dies can just be stamped out, swage dies can't.

I don't think I said it would be easy to hire more machinists,... because, I am sure it takes some time to find a good one with the skills needed to create these dies.
When I was there, he had one guy building the hydraulic presses, and one guy on a lathe, not sure if there was a third guy, it has been a while..
What I do remember is the honing set up... quite an impressive machine, when he explained how it is used.. but again, it isn't automated, and all of the work done requires someone there working it.

gitano

06-24-2011, 11:37 AM

randmplumbingllc

06-24-2011, 01:47 PM

I have spoken with D.R. Corbin MANY times. He APPEARS to be VERY helpful, and in some respects is. He is very helpful in telling you what you NEED. I WOULDN'T have considered him to be one that wanted to "run off with my money", but clearly there is a LONG-TERM PATTERN of taking people's money when he KNOWS he WILL NOT deliver. All the "nice talk" or "helpful conversation" in the world doesn't over-ride actual DEEDS. "You will know them by their fruit", is once again the watchword of our era.

You don't have "special knowledge" about being in business. I've been a business OWNER for more than 20 years. I know what "more employees" means to a business. This isn't about "production", it isn't about business management: it's about honesty and business integrity. "Talk is cheap." You will know them BY THEIR FRUIT.

Paul

I don't know, I try to give people the benifit of the doubt.

I don't think D Corbin has a scheme to take money without delivering the products. "Stuff" happens in business. Sometimes mistakes happen, orders get mixed up, etc. That is just the way it is.

No, I never claimed to have "special knowledge" about business. It doesn't take any "special knowledge" to figure out that D Corbin likes his "small" business the way it is.

I don't know why you feel the way you do about D Corbin, and I really don't need to. Every business has mix-ups, errors and mistakes. I am quite sure that yours was one of those.

Even after your ordeal, you could have cancelled your order, but I see that you did not.

Enough said.

Spanners

06-24-2011, 07:22 PM

You are seriously mistaken, and either you didn't read the whole thread or you're calling me a liar. I sent him a copy of my credit card statement proving I paid at the time of the order and that he took the money. If you have an order in and haven't paid, then you DO NOT have an order in. That's what happened to me the LAST time I tried to get some dies.

Honestly, I am both relieved and surprised at these responses. I fully expected a great cry of "foul" and all sorts of attacks on me. I am sorry and disappointed to see so many others with the same experience. It is good to know that I am not being "picked on" by Corbin.

Anyway, thanks for the commiseration and for not trying to make up 'possible' scenarios to excuse this poor behavior.

Paul

I wasnt even repling to you it was another post (obviously missed the quote button) - obviously YOU didnt read the whole thread as you would have seen the continuation and context it was in.

I've got orders in from March and I spoke to David and added/charged items on Wednesday - I have the order in writing - not been billed and should expect it in a month or so as the items are part if another run at the moment - and you;re trying to tell me I dont have an order because I've not been billed?

Hop off the high horse or ride away on it, as the attitude isn't going to get you any support

DukeInFlorida

06-25-2011, 08:19 AM

Just some observations:

1) D Corbin feels that he is the ONLY one who knows how to do what he does (at his shop), or at least the only one who does what he does the way that he does it, and therefore probably doesn't want to hire any employees for that reason.
2) I believe that the truth is that the skills to produce the tools are teachable, and that some "apprentices" should be brought in and trained.
3) When you bring in an apprentice, you start off giving them the simple jobs to do. Usually, those simple things are the time consuming ones. Dave would speed up his process a bunch if he looked at the simple things differently.
4) You give apprentices increasingly difficult things to do, as they show the ability to handle them. You get the right apprentice, and with pride and skills in hand, they will do amazing things, and learn fast.
5) We're all going to "GO" sometime. To think about Dave leaving this good green earth for the big tool shop in the sky...... without having someone to pick up his business.... is exactly like what has happened far too much in the past. Look back on how many guys took their knowledge to their grave. That's their decision, but it's sad.
6) Some people don't want employees. Too much paperwork and government hassle. But, by not letting an apprentice come in and learn and help, and speed up the manufacturing process, you're cheating your adoring customers.
7) The fact that Dave always spends hours each day talking on the phone with customers, tells me that he thinks of this as a great paying HOBBY. Nothing wrong with that, but all the chit chat doesn't get work out the door. He should have an assistant taking questions, and answering them in down time, rather during the production day.
8) Finally, it's his business! He can run it however he wants. Can charge whatever he wants. Can make customers wait how ever long he wants. Can work at it for as many hours a day as he wants. Can be virtually a one man shop if he wants. He's busy as he wants to be. He's making as much money as he wants to make. He's happy. So be it.

Bottom line: If you want his product, expect to wait as long as you have to. If you don't want to wait, make your own, or find another source for the product. Customer unhappiness is what really sparks new competitors. The entrepreneurial spirit is alive and well in America!

As someone is fond of saying, "Swage On!"

scb

06-25-2011, 09:39 AM

7) The fact that Dave always spends hours each day talking on the phone with customers, tells me that he thinks of this as a great paying HOBBY. Nothing wrong with that, but all the chit chat doesn't get work out the door. He should have an assistant taking questions, and answering them in down time, rather during the production day.

This hits the nail right on the head.
Being a member of such a small fraternity,with his loyal customers and the back log he has, even IF there was increased competition I doubt he would have to change his "business practises" in his life time. Besides I don't think he has any desire to. I think it's part of an ego trip. He can sit back and say "look at how much in demand MY product is, and I am one of the few people in the world that can produce it". There is another company that is just like this, or they were 5,6,7 years ago when I stopped trying to do business with them and that's Canjar.
Those of you that say it's his business and he can run it any way he wants are of course correct except, I believe the "bait and switch" spoken of in the OP is inexcusable. If you say you have a product on the shelf and I pay you for it right then and there, there is not way that item is not mine. If your going to run things like this then be up front and tell your customers "when you pay me today you won't get what your paying for for 2 years or more."

mold maker

06-25-2011, 11:20 AM

As said above, Dave is in charge. The Co. is run his way. If you read the original complaint it was documented and leaves no doubt that Dave screwed up. Where the problem arises is he didn't notify and correct the problem, when he found no "IN STOCK" item, to fill the order. This too may be just an oversight, but after being called to his attention, he offered excuses and a TOUGH LUCK answer.
This is undoubtedly , by choice, a very small operation. Making a big enterprise of it, would take most of the fun out of it. (Been there and done that)
There are now CB members working their tails off to fill the void that Dave is happy with. Guys like BT Sniper, Pat Martin, and many others, are making a big difference in the number of us ready to take the plunge into the swagging aspect, at reasonable prices.. That in it's self has recently added to the volume of work available.
I don't think we are looking for rocket science. If Dave figured it out so can many others.
The void exist and the clientele is ready with money in hand. We even have finished products to copy and even improve.
With the level of ability exhibited by some of the members, I'm surprised that we have to put up with Dave or any other irresponsible suppliers.
LEE has less than 1/4 the mold work that they formerly had, because they didn't listen. Now we have much better quality, quicker delivery, and better service, even from half way around the world.
Build a better mouse trap, and - - - - - - - - -.

randmplumbingllc

06-28-2011, 12:08 AM

I thought D.R Corbin should have his voice heard, this is what he said :

From The "Horses Mouth"

Thank you for your message. I appreciate your concern and support.

Some people will always find negative things to say about any company, person or product. Nothing I can say or do will change this. The sad thing is that most of the people who say these things have never used or purchased any of the equipment.

I've been making swaging equipment for more than 40 years now. In all that time, we've seldom had less than a year's backlog of orders. Sometimes we have had 2 or 3 years backlog.

Those who complain about the backlog are justified. I would complain about it myself! But, three points:

1. If the products were not considered a pretty good value (quality versus cost), we wouldn't be backlogged all the time. Look how many swaging firms have lasted 2-3 years and folded up over that same time period of 40 plus years! Must not be doing too much wrong!

2. I could easily raise prices and cut delivery time, because some people who couldn't quite afford it, and we would make the more profit on less sales. I prefer to make swaging as affordable as I can and still maintain the quality. It means more work for the same money, but hey, guess I'm just a greedy SOB, eh?

3. Since I've been doing this for 40 plus years, guess how long past normal retirement I must be? Yep, at least that far. So I'm not doing it because I have to. I'm doing it because I like to, and want to. I like helping people get good equipment. Especially if they are patient and let me do it right. That must really make me a bad example of a human being, but I'll live with it.

If you want to quote me and cut and paste this anywhere you like, I give you my full and complete permission to do so. I'm old and I know it's just wasting time to try to teach a pig to sing -- just annoys the pig, as Mark Twain said. Likewise, if someone wants to have fun making derogatory comments about someone else's life work, that's their business and nothing I can do will do a thing except stir them up to say even more. Some of it might be true. Most of it probably isn't. And I couldn't care less. If I didn't make another die, I'd be perfectly happy to just go hunting, take photos and write books, and ride a well-trained quarter-horse over the mountains for the rest of my days. But I still see people who want good equipment. As long as they do, I feel a strong urge to make it for them.

About delivery...

We begin work on orders right away, as much of the work is in the planning, drawings, and scheduling sequences for the people and machinery, oven time for heat treatment and drawing processes, and so forth. As we work along on the previously scheduled items, we often find processes that can be done both for the long-standing prior orders and for some that have come in later, at the same time. We are constantly working on bits for all the orders...we don't suddenly start one day when we've finished everything that came before. So, the start date is right away.

The completion date is hidden even from me. The only way I know when we have found it is when the finished product is on the shipping room bench, after it passes testing. On our normal production pricing, we take all the orders in chronological sequence and build at least one complete caliber on the oldest order in the list, and as many that are like it in the pending list as would be practical, since setup time on each machine and stage of production is a place where we can save time by making more than one part at a time. Thus, some of the orders will be finished ahead of schedule, as with a single punch or add-on die, or perhaps even a die set, that matches a line item on the oldest order.

Parts of other orders can be finished far ahead of schedule, too. If a person has say a .338 die set on order that is exactly the same as one that has been pending for a year, and it just now is being completed, then a second 338 set just like it will be made also at the same time. There may be dozens of other items on the same orders that are NOT completed at that time, since they take other machinery, other setups, which are tied up with completion of another old order.

As complex as this custom business is, we find it impossible to quote delivery time with any accuracy. We have both $50,000 orders and $20 orders: the average time is maybe a day per order, and I have 600 orders of all sizes pending, maybe that is 600 days of work. But making more than one at a time cuts the delivery, and illness, machine breakdowns, customer changes to their pending orders, and other factors can increase delivery time on the downstream from that order. If I am only guessing with a 1 day error per order, which would be extraordinary precision, I could be off by 600 days on 600 orders! So, there is no point is saying that the last order which I just received will be done in 600 days plus or minus 600 days. It doesn't make any sense to even try to estimate. Besides which, many of the projects we have pending have never been done before by anyone, and we have no real idea how long it will take to develop an answer to the problems posed by them. I can only say time and material, stop me when you can't afford to go on.

Usually we put a practical limit on such jobs, up front, like saying that if it goes over $2000 then stop and submit the list of what didn't work so far, and what is most promising to try next.
And then we have dozens of simple jobs we've done a thousand times before, as well.

All I can say is, we finish each order just as soon as we possibly can. There is no advantage in delay for anyone. We don't get paid, except for a deposit on custom work, until we ship.

Now, here's the facts about production:

The three factors we can juggle are price, speed, and quality. Quality is a market decision. We have long ago decided that high quality is our niche and it is not reasonable for us to lower it in favor of higher speed to market, or lower price for a larger mass market. So we'll leave that alone. Then we have price and speed to work with.

Speed and price are related in that our cost per hour is based on our overhead, which is based on how many die-makers we have employed. By adding more die-makers, I can boost production, but only at increased price of the products. Or, I can increase speed on a selective basis by asking for the existing die-makers to work overtime on certain projects, where the need is great enough to justify the added cost.

To bring in die-makers on the weekend makes the cost of the dies they build increase by 200%. This is the result of not just their 1.5 times salary at overtime, as mandated by labor law, but also the increased medical insurance, benefits, state and federal taxes, shop gas and electric cost increases, and so forth. We normally have someone working overtime nearly every weekend, as there are so many projects where the cost, even at twice the die price, is well below the nearest alternative way of obtaining similar quality tools in that time frame, and it is justified by the client in his own mind based on whatever can be done by having the tools quickly as compared to waiting up to a year (or more).

We don't have unlimited overtime, but usually within a 30 day period we can find at least some overtime that isn't already committed to another job. If you do find that there is a particular caliber or set of tooling that you need very badly and would be willing to cover the overtime cost for making it, we can generally get a set of dies or a day to two day's worth of work out within 10 days. I can't promise this is always true, as there are times like this past weekend when all my people are committed to overtime jobs already. But often it is so.

The quoted prices would be double for just those items actually made on overtime. Bullet jackets, lube, presses we have in stock, and anything else that is already in stock would of course be shipped along with the overtime work, but at the standard price. Bottom line is I don't make a penny more on overtime. The people who work for me make 150% of what they usually do. The government and all the various suppliers of insurance and health care and so forth make the other 50% based on those extra wages paid. That's where the 2x or 200% comes in. It doesn't get anywhere near to my pocket!

It's an option.

It's the way a person can choose speed over price, or price over speed, and still get the best quality.

And it is fair to everyone else, since it does NOT get in anyone else's way or put anyone else behind further.

D.R. Corbin, President
Corbin Mfg & Supply, Inc.
PO Box 2659, 600 Industrial Circle, White City, OR 97503

dave@corbins.com
order on-line at: www.SwageDies.com
Fax: 541-826-8669 (avail 24/7)
Phone: 541-826-5211 (Mon-Thurs)
A registered veteran-owned small business
DUNS No.010743615
NAICS: 332721 CAGE: 0MWN8
PSG: 3419 FSC: 3419

gitano

06-28-2011, 01:46 AM

What is that?

Did you write him? Did you call him? Is this another of his form letters? In order to determine an appropriate response to CORBIN, it would be nice to know from whence this derives.

As for:

I thought D.R Corbin should have his voice heard,

I did nothing but print his EXACT WORDS that HE WROTE in his email correspondence to me. At least I had the integrity to include my emails to him. Something you failed to do in the above post.

"You will know them by their fruit."

I had nothing to hide from D.R. Corbin so your attempts to embarrass me failed. I did nothing but post his own words AND MINE. I fully expected this from SOMEONE at the site(S) I posted the emails on. You get the "gold star" for being the first.

Finally, every one can see even from his response to WHAT EVER YOU REPRESENTED TO HIM that he did not address ANY of the REAL issues. The above is just more of the same: "My stuff is the best so I can do what I want" "I've been doing this for 40 years" and "If you don't like it, tough". Not having YOUR words means that we have no way of knowing to what "accusation" D. Corbin was responding.

Because you failed to print what YOU wrote, we have no clue what D. Corbin was responding to. Did he read this whole thread, or just what you represented? And WHAT DID you represent? Afraid to post that? I wasn't afraid to post what I sent D. Corbin.

Paul

randmplumbingllc

06-28-2011, 01:50 AM

what is that?

Did you write him? Did you call him? Is this another of his form letters? In order to determine an appropriate response to corbin, it would be nice to know from whence this derives.

As for:

I did nothing but print his exact words that he wrote in his email correspondence to me. At least i had the integrity to include my emails to him. Something you failed to do in the above post.

"you will know them by their fruit."

we're getting to know you quite well. Tattle-tails and traitors never engender the favor the hope for from the one's to whom they tattle. I had nothing to hide from d.r. Corbin so your little tattle-telling in no way embarrasses me. I did nothing but post his own words and mine. I fully expected this from someone at the site(s) i posted the emails on. You get the "gold star" for being such a good little boy though. You were the first one to tattle to 'daddy'.

Finally, every one can see even from his response to what ever you represented to him that he did not address any of the real issues. The above is just more of the same: "my stuff is the best so i can do what i want" "i've been doing this for 40 years" and "if you don't like it, tough". Not having your words means that we have no way of knowing to what "accusation" d. Corbin was responding.

Because you failed to print what you wrote, (there are names for those that don't have the integrity to stand up for their own behavior), we have no clue what d. Corbin was responding to. Did he read this whole thread, or just what you represented? And what did you represent? Afraid to post that? I wasn't afraid to post what i sent d. Corbin.

Paul

pm sent

I didn't REPRESENT anything to Mr Corbin, I just gave him the link. Since I was talking to the man, I thought it would be fair to get his side of things.

Here is a little advice.....If you don't want someone to see what you wrote.....DON'T post it on the internet....Just a thought.

You really showed your maturity on this last post . I guess my "feelings" are suppose to be hurt now ?

Don't bother to respond, because life is too short to waste it on your trash talk.

I WAS gonna reply to you questioning my integrity,......but if you come to Texas, I'll answer that it for you in person.

gitano

06-28-2011, 05:02 AM

I'm not likely to take advice from the likes of you, but I come to Texas quite often. Gimme your address and I'd be all too happy to stop by and discuss your integrity and your internet "bravery" face to face.

As noted IN THE ORIGINAL POST - his "side" of things was presented in his own words. You continue to misrepresent with the likes of "if you don't want someone to see what you wrote... DON'T post it on the internet". First, that is precisely WHY I posted ALL of the communications I had with D. Corbin on the internet. Second, you're the only one that "hid" their actions. I posted both MY comments and D.Corbin's in my very first post. You on the other hand, had to be goaded into revealing that you did in fact go "tattle to daddy".

"You will know them by their fruit"

Paul

wiljen

06-28-2011, 10:33 AM

lathesmith

06-28-2011, 11:21 AM

Utah Shooter

06-28-2011, 11:34 AM

Wow guys! Wow!

randmplumbingllc

06-28-2011, 01:00 PM

Alright, I've heard about enough of this. If you cannot keep things civil, I suggest you go elsewhere. If you insist on making this personal attacks instead of discussion of the original topic, I will enforce the going elsewhere by giving all involved 10 days away from the site to cool off. Discussion is fine, disagreement essential to progress, but attacking others is neither acceptable or productive.

I am cool as ice. No problem here. I said all that needed to be said.

Don't worry, ain't NO ONE attacking me and it is not my style to attack others.

I will not make another post on this thread.....I promise.

Mountain Prepper

06-28-2011, 02:15 PM

I have Corbin equipment and dies, most was ordered direct and some has come from “businesses that have failed” trying to use the formula promoted by Dave.

I happen to like Dave, nice guy, very smart, has a very skilled shop.

I happen to catch s**t defending Corbin dies from the “it ain’t s**t unless its carbide” bunch - I point out the flaws in that argument.

Back to some of the original subject, I don’t have to agree with Dave’s business model it is without a doubt working for Dave but it is not working for the goals and desires I and others have posted - increasing the popularity of swaging.

I thought D.R Corbin should have his voice heard, this is what he said :
1. If the products were not considered a pretty good value (quality versus cost), we wouldn't be backlogged all the time. Look how many swaging firms have lasted 2-3 years and folded up over that same time period of 40 plus years! Must not be doing too much wrong!

2. I could easily raise prices and cut delivery time, because some people who couldn't quite afford it, and we would make the more profit on less sales. I prefer to make swaging as affordable as I can and still maintain the quality. It means more work for the same money, but hey, guess I'm just a greedy SOB, eh?

3. Since I've been doing this for 40 plus years, guess how long past normal retirement I must be? Yep, at least that far. So I'm not doing it because I have to. I'm doing it because I like to, and want to. I like helping people get good equipment. Especially if they are patient and let me do it right. That must really make me a bad example of a human being, but I'll live with it.

Number one - No person has questioned the quality of the product in this thread, this has nothing to do with a “bad” product if anything I would say we are supportive of the quality product and want MORE - MORE would represent more money (more on this later). The simple and old fallacy of “massive years of experiance” is old, and in professional production circles long discounted. The magic number is seven years at the seven year point skills for specific tasks are honed to the craftsman level, beyond ten years the question is how well and intelligently does the craftsman adapt to the technological changes inherent in all production methods.

Number two - There is an incorrect idea about marketing on this one, there is never a cut and dried answer for sales or marketing and the idea that simply raising prices will make a universal change is dead wrong. Now I have absolutely no doubt that Dave is dead serious and truthful saying that he wants to keep prices down and not interested in making himself rich, if anything that post answers a lot of questions and firmly puts Dave in the small artisan category - he is far more interested in his product than in sales of that product. Very similar to sales of crafts and art where very skilled craftsmen or artists in effect love the craft and the art, the classic “starving artist” a concept that is wider and more common than you would expect - it is not a myth and it actually garners more respect from me for Dave.

Number three - " I like helping people get good equipment. Especially if they are patient and let me do it right." There you go, and it goes to the very point identified by others. If you want this artisan product then you wait for the demands of the artisan shop - simple, understandable and reasonable if you want that craftsmanship from that shop.

As far as business, the fallacies are numerous, including the unwritten rejection of “outsourcing” where the basics could be done by larger shops with more employees and computer controlled equipment.

Clearly the longest production job and the one requiring the most skill is lapping the dies from basic shape into a highly polished point forming die. Want to increase production outsource all of the “basics” and get some real scheduling software in the shop, scheduling would be similar as now but with real production as the goal.

The fact that he is resistant to adding new employees or even better outsourcing is telling, adding employees in the wrong way can be disastrous, adding employees in the correct way would actually increase production, and lower cost per product and will lower prices not raise them as claimed.

Good product, good quality, artisan craftsman who actually loves what he does, this is all great for a patient customer who wants the product that will last 750,000 to 1,000,000 bullets of better than factory quality.

Want a product from a craftsman or an artist - this is the business model you must be tolerant for your orders.

For the increasing and promotion of swaging to the general public it is limiting as the production from this shop in particular is not growing and the goal of that shop is not to grow, he may not have stated that exactly but that is his presentation in a nutshell.

shooterg

06-29-2011, 11:59 AM

Got 2 older Corbin presses, use 'em with Blackmon dies. Don't have the equipment, skill, or patience to make like stuff. Sure hope someone gets "apprenticed" at Corbins and glad to see some here trying to make swaging equipment available at reasonable cost, but it is discouraging to prospective swagers not to be able to get started in swaging . Beginning reloaders have a smorgasbord of equipment to pick from, swagers not so much. I'd think there's a sizable market in .223 and .308 if Lee/RCBS/etc. were to enter this aspect of our hobby. Wishful thinking, I know !

Mountain Prepper

06-29-2011, 12:21 PM

Beginning reloaders have a smorgasbord of equipment to pick from, swagers not so much. I'd think there's a sizable market in .223 and .308 if Lee/RCBS/etc. were to enter this aspect of our hobby. Wishful thinking, I know !

If enough of us call Lee and e-mail there is a possibility...

Money and market speaks loudly.

.223 6s
.308 6s 8s
.355 1.5 s
.400 1.25 s
.452 1.25 s

The above alone choices would be enough to get most started.

A Lee set of swaging dies would be a great addition to my sets.

gitano

06-29-2011, 02:29 PM

Mountain Prepper - your comments are clear, and your rationale is sound, as far as it goes. Unfortunately, it avoided the one REALLY salient point: "bait and switch".

I have had several very helpful (technically) discussions with D. Corbin. I too have found him a "nice guy". I even agree with your final comment:
Want a product from a craftsman or an artist - this is the business model you must be tolerant for your orders
What I have a problem with is D. Corbin's CONSISTENT and REPEATED willingness to offer something RIGHT NOW - meaning "in stock and ready to ship" - and then telling people "Sorry. Someone beat you to it" AFTER HE TAKES PAYMENT.

That has NOTHING to do with any of the points you raised, or your final comment. Based on previous experience, I had already decided I did NOT want to WAIT for D. Corbin's "artisan product". That is precisely WHY I placed the order and then called to MAKE SURE it was "in hand and ready to ship". I was told IT WAS. When, TWO MONTHS LATER, I inquire about the shipment, I FIRST get the BS form letter. THEN when I point out that the ADVERTIZEMENT AND A PHONE CONFIRMATION stated that the item was "in stock and ready to ship", I am given the SAME OLD "Someone beat you to it" BS. Clearly, I am not the only person this has happened to.

Instead of making excuses and essentially saying "tough luck", the RIGHT thing for D. Corbin to do since; 1) he has acknowledged that this was his 'fault' and 2) he has already taken money under false pretenses; is put the order HE messed up, to the "front of the line". "Artisan craftsmen" that actually care about their PAID customers would see that THEIR mistakes don't harm their customers.

Don't even ask if I have asked D.Corbin for this "remedy". He has made it clear on multiple occassions that NO ONE goes to the "head of the line" unless they "pay double".

Not really MY idea of the "classic" American "artisan craftsman". As I have been saying, "You will know them by their fruit". An "artisan craftsman's" "fruit" isn't just his product, it's the way in which he behaves. I have never heard even one comment from even one of D.Corbin's customers that illustrated that he has EVER done ANYTHING that put himself out for one of his customers. I cannot make that same statement for the companies like RCBS, Lee Precision, Track of the Wolf, Nosler, Pacific Tool and Gauge and more. Each of them, and many more "artisans" have done "the right thing" when they are clearly at fault. D. Corbin instead makes excuses and says, "Tough. Don't like it? Go somewhere else."

Paul

Utah Shooter

06-29-2011, 02:51 PM

If enough of us call Lee and e-mail there is a possibility...

Money and market speaks loudly.

.223 6s
.308 6s 8s
.355 1.5 s
.400 1.25 s
.452 1.25 s

The above alone choices would be enough to get most started.

A Lee set of swaging dies would be a great addition to my sets.

Wouldn't that be nice?

DukeInFlorida

06-29-2011, 05:30 PM

No, no, no............

Lee would try to make them out of aluminum or 1010 steel, and they wouldn't last a single session.........

Spanners

06-29-2011, 07:34 PM

Paul - why did you wait 2 months to chase up and order for an item that was 'in stock'??

Just ask for your money back - you'll get it, then can stop crying here..

gitano

06-29-2011, 07:55 PM

I'm not "crying" here, I'm noting ANOTHER example of poor business behaviour by a well-known business that produces goods for the very purpose of this forum - "Swaging".

I waited two months because 1) I DO give people/businesses the "benefit of the doubt", and 2) I just finished getting one of my children married. However, there are two more salient points with respect to that question though: 1) 8 weeks isn't a "long" delivery time" for D. Corbin, and 2) If I had checked the next week it wouldn't have changed the outcome one bit.

I don't want my money back. I want the service promised and paid for. I can 'take care of my own affairs' - I don't need anyone else or this forum to do that for me. Read the whole thread and you won't find me asking for help or advice in that matter in ANY of my posts. I will deal with D. Corbin as I choose to.

I thought - correctly - that there might be some here that would be interested in D. Corbin's OWN WORDS regarding his policies and actions with respect to his view of "customer service".

A couple have suggested that if I don't like the way D. Corbin does business then I should take my business elsewhere. I would suggest in the same spirit that you have the same option with regard to reading my posts or threads.

DukeInMaine - I am assuming your "no, no, no..." comment was tongue in cheek. Here's something D. Corbin told me was "impossible". The following is a part of a thread on another
swaging site. It was written in 2008.

Don't tell me I can't swage .510" bullets in a reloading press.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Making%20the%2050%20Alaskan/Swaged50-550.jpg

This is the first bullet I made from the swaging die I cut - for use in a "regular" reloading press. (I haven't made the swage for the Lachmiller yet.) I am pleased with it. It's a bit heavy at 550, but that's easily remedied. Dave Corbin, and others, have repeatedly told me that it is not possible to swage bullets larger than about .30 caliber on 'regular' reloading presses. When I pressed for reasons, the 'weather' suddenly got hazy. Continued pressing on my part lead to reasons like, "It takes too much pressure" and "The strokes are too short on reloading presses".

Both those justifications may be true for some kinds of swaging operations, but I was very clear - repeatedly - that my needs were simple. Of course "simple" often doesn't sell hardware. I need neither great force, nor a long stroke to make these bullets. The jacket - the forward part of a 'magnum' cartridge case - is nearly pre-formed, and the core is too, as it is simply the Lee 458 Postell 3R cast bullet. Here's a picture of the starting components.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o266/paulskvorc/Making%20the%2050%20Alaskan/Swaged50s.jpg

On the left is a .338 Win Mag case. Next is the case with the head parted (I use the rear of the case as a jacket too after turning the belt off), and the neck turned off the shoulder. The forward part is what is used for the jacket in these bullets. In the middle is the Lee .458 3R Postell (507-grains from my mould). I simply insert the Postell into the front of the Mag case, and press into the swaging die.

Of course, I haven't shot them yet, but my previous experiments using the case heads as jackets was very promising. I expect these to do at least as well. Consistency will be necessary for good precision shooting, but I think I can get all the consistency I need in final weight by weighing each 'jacket' and core prior to swaging.

I also like the long nose on these bullets. That turns out to be purely serendipity as it is the profile of the "reamer" I used. That reamer cost me $21.99 (13.90 for the reamer, 6.10 for shipping, and 1.99 for "handling") off EBay. Custom reamer-making shops either said they couldn't make one, or quoted a price of at least $140 (some MUCH higher). The "reamer" is actually a 1/2" "tree burr". Here's a picture of one exactly like what I got. http://cgi.ebay.com/TITAN-1-2-SG-5-DBL-CUT-POINTED-TREE-CARBIDE-BURR-NEW_W0QQitemZ200135383124QQihZ010QQcategoryZ12578Q QcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

While the reamer is only 0.500" in maximum diameter, it occurred to me that I could mount it in my tool-holder and offset it the necessary 0.010" to ream the ID I wanted. (Actually I reamed it to 0.515" so I could run the swaged bullet through my .510" Lee bullet sizer for an exact final diameter.) It worked like I knew what I was doin'.

Reaming the die is tedious, as the whole surface of the burr is cutting. In order to make the cavity as smooth as possible, I was only able to advance the burr 0.020" between clearing chips from the cavity and the burr. Since the cavity is 1.5" deep (deep enough to make a 600-grain bullet), that was 75 cuts (1.500"/0.020" = 75).

It wasn't 'easy' to get to this point of actually making bullets, but it wasn't 'hard' either. It just required a hard head. Once the burr was found, the process went like this:

1) Thread a 3" piece of 1" diameter steel rod to 7/8-14 to fit a standard reloading die.
2) Drill a 3/16" pilot hole (later to become the hole through which the bullet is removed from the swage) through the threaded billet.
3) Ream to 1" depth with the burr mounted in the tail-stock.
4) Ream (with 1/2" drill) "shank" to 0.5" deep.
5) Install burr in tool-holder - off-set desired amount for exact diameter.
6) "Cut" (as opposed to "ream", as now the burr is only cutting on one side) into full depth of 1.5".
7) Polish.
8) Make a 'ram' that fits in the reloading die ram, for pressing the unswaged components into the swage.

Making the core should be obvious - it's just a cast bullet. Making the jacket is a bit more complicated, but not too big a deal.
1) Chuck the magnum case (.338, 7mm, .300, etc., any 'standard' magnum case) in the lathe with the head out.
2) Turn off belt.
3) Remove and chuck case in lathe with mouth out.
4) Turn off neck.
5) Part case at predetermined length for specific bullet weight.

At that point, it's just a matter of inserting the nose of the core into the 'jacket', applying a little lube, and pressing into the swage. A tap on the nose through the top hole drops the bullet out of the swage. It pops out at about 0.5145" in diameter. I then run it through the Leee sizing die, and it is 0.5103". Voila'.

And it didn't cost me $2000 dollars, which is what it would have cost me (including shipping) to get Corbin's complete set-up. Of course his equipment might very likely make 'better' bullets. However, if these shoot as straight as the seriously clunky ones I made "by hand" before shot, I'll be happy as a clam.

I'll post a 'photo essay' on the whole process later. It's a bit dificult to work efficiently on a lathe and try to take pictures too - especially if you're a novice.

Paul

PS - I'm not particularly trying to 'pick on' Dave Corbin, and I certainly don't want to offend anyone that uses Corbin gear or that is Dave Corbin's 'friend'. I think he's a pretty good guy - helpful and informative... as long as you do things his way. By the same token, I get annoyed when people won't listen to me describe my needs and ideas, AND when people refuse to "keep it simple". I'm sure Dave Corbin's gear is high-quality stuff that produces high quality bullets. And that's the way he wants it. I'm also quite certain he's not crying about losing my business.

Mountain Prepper

06-29-2011, 08:20 PM

Mountain Prepper - your comments are clear, and your rationale is sound, as far as it goes. Unfortunately, it avoided the one REALLY salient point: "bait and switch”.

Paul I cannot actively disagree you have some valid points that honestly bother me.

Sadly your point that this is not a "classic" American "artisan craftsman” business model is not completely accurate. I deal with this type professionally all the time and it is very common amongst craftsmen and artisans.

Outside of this niche of business models the answer would be “customer service” and the mistake would be hot-footed into production to fix it... Any other business out there would have to deal with competition, not so in this case, there is no competition and this fosters an attitude of “this is the way we work” and “nothing can be done” attitude this attitude is not hidden and is standard procedure.

What does bother me is that even simple on-line classifieds services (gun broker for example) have counting features available this mistake was not intentional but it does reflect a very primitive website and a lack of coordination that even the most basic e-commerce systems have built in... Fifteen to Seventeen years ago Corbin’s website was on-par or even a bit ahead of the curve, now, well we all know the story about the resting rabbit and the steady turtle in the race... Using gunbroker would be a much better option for Corbin at this point, at least this problem would not crop up again.

Was a mistake made - I think so.
Was that mistake intentional - I also think not.
Will this be hot-footed to fix - again I think not, it is not the procedure we would expect.

That last one is cringe-worthy for anyone used to the way business works in the last few years... e-commerce has absolutely exploded.

I just received a custom made one-of part from Israel just yesterday and the entire process was on-line, from our engineer’s cad drawing to delivery was three weeks - from Israel!

Spanners

06-29-2011, 08:38 PM

You say you're not here for a cry, but all you write is "waah waah waah, woe is me". :violin:

As you said - you'll deal with him as you choose to - therefore your purpose here other than a cry is what???
Everyone knows Corbins business model and the procedure to get anything from him, however you obviosuly have a bone with him as you feel like you must come here and bleat on and on. Your post about the .510 above is knocking DC also

Your 50 cal bullet thats' impossible to do on a reloading press' - looks like you done the impossible - start making and selling.
You wont however be able to make a core swage die to do 550gr cores for use in a reloading press

gitano

06-29-2011, 11:09 PM

Sadly your point that this is not a "classic" American "artisan craftsman” business model is not completely accurate.

I wrestled with the "classic American" comment, but decided to use it. I am afraid that your assessment is probably more correct than mine. Recently I contracted some very specialized work from an American "big dog" in the business. SIX MONTHS AND $18,000 LATER, they had produced nothing but "well-documented" and useless code. About a month later, I CONTACTED, not contracted, another company just to see if they MIGHT be able to do what we needed. LESS THAN 24 HOURS later, they gave me a demo that accomplished what the American "big dog" couldn't/wouldn't do in 6 months. The head of the company is Israeli, and the engineers are Romanian.

We Americans 'crow' a lot about our 'innovativeness' and hard work and so on and so on. We are in fact, only reaping the crop that our father's hard work and WORK ETHIC sowed. Was a time when American cars were truly the best. Now we create "agencies" to give American car manufacturers "awards" for being "the best". It's practically embarrassing. Just about the best "thing" we Americans do today is collect our government checks.

With regard to D. Corbin's "intent": Having spoken with him on several occasions myself, it's difficult also for me to imagine that he has anything nefarious at heart. STILL... if he DIDN'T, why wouldn't he "do the right thing" and rectify HIS MISTAKE. His REFUSAL to "make it right" speaks volumes more about his real "intent" than all the excuses and explanations in the world.

Paul

63 Shiloh

06-30-2011, 09:08 AM

Just about the best "thing" we Americans do today is collect our government checks.

I have no dog in this fight, so I will not comment on the topic of the post.

However, just to lighten the mood a bit,

I as an ex Australian Infantry soldier have to disagree with the comment I highlighted above mate.

When I saw a A 10 Warthog or Apache helo in action, I was bloody happy they were on our side!

The Javelin missile which I was lucky enough to fire, is an awesome piece of kit.

In fact, right down to the heating pad in the US MRE's, I am impressed with US engineering and innovation.

US firepower helped us Australian forces on more than on occasion, I am very grateful for that.

Having a chat to a member on this site who live in North Carolina last night, top bloke and very informative. His recommendations on the .357 Maximum ( a US invention) has made me start saving to re-barrel one of my single shot rifles.

Anyway, just an observation.

Mike

gabe123

06-30-2011, 03:34 PM

gitano, I really would like to get into swaging and have tried to assemble as much information as possible to educate myself about this hobby. I have the e-books from both of the Corbins and I am watching with amazement the things that BT Sniper creates. There are quite a few very knowledgeable and talented people here on this site and I really enjoy the exchange of ideas expressed here.

I was wondering if you would share the name of this other swaging site that you mentioned. I am hungry for knowledge about this swaging process and any additional information would be welcomed.

Thank you in advance, Gabe

gitano

07-02-2011, 09:10 PM

Hello, 63 Shiloh.

Darn nice thing to say. It may be the nicest comment about Americans that I have heard come from a foreigner in a VERY long time. I won't argue whose idea the heating pad in the MRE's is ( I don't know that it's NOT American, but wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't). I too REALLY like the A-10 Warthog. An amazing aircraft. I was stationed at a base that had a squadron of A-10s, but all I heard from the pilots was what a "pig" it was and how they all wanted to fly F-16s and 18s.

I'm to Australia soon though not to Western Australia. Were I, I'd be pleased to drop by an buy you a beer.

Thanks again for the compliments, not to me, but Americans in general.

Gabe - check this site out - http://www.saubier.com/forum.html Best of luck.

Paul

felix

07-02-2011, 09:59 PM

Fort Smith Razorbacks were F16 + C130 jocks. We are now A10 + C130 + Commercial Jets. Yes, we have a few pilots here which are checked out to fly all three, plus F16s when they were here. The F16s were xferred to Fort Polk about 3 years ago. Pilots here will fly anything to keep up flight hours, and I was very surprised the pilots here (reserve or guard units) are allowed to fly commercial jets/turbos after given time to be checked out. It seems the "military" is trying to save gas and its obvious this is true. There are only about 10 percent of the flights that once were 5 years ago. One pilot lives down the street from me. He has a wing commander rating for the A10s, and was once one for the F16s stationed here. There are about 24 A10s here, and a bunch of c130s. He flew a C130 to Kabul and back in January for some other reserve unit around here. I also had him as a pilot going from here FSM to Memphis MEM last summer at about this time. He looked funny in his Northwest uniform. ... felix

lgvenable

07-02-2011, 11:56 PM

I was told payment up front for order, then when I went with the forum swaging press he tried to denigrate it for poor engineering. You're right on one thing, UP North, BT Sniper, and danr have a niche they could quickly fill with success.

7of7

07-03-2011, 10:52 AM

Got my point forming die yesterday from Dave Corbin.
Now I need to make a new tip forming die for that bullet...

gitano

09-10-2012, 06:17 PM

Just to 'close the loop', and give the devil his due:

After ANOTHER set of infuriating emails in which:
1) Dave Corbin told me he had "refunded" my payment,
2) AND that he NOW was telling me that he had no order for dies in his system,

I:
1) checked my credit card records and PROVED that he had NOT refunded my payment, (The "refund" he referred to was a PREVIOUS order that he had ALSO told me was "ready to ship" and then told me "somebody else got it before you"), AND
2) told him that he had had my money for two years, AND
3) I resurrected ALL the correspondence from day one on the matter,

He:
1) Grudgingly owned up to the FACTS that he had screwed up, AND
2) moved me to "the front of the line" without telling me I had to pay twice the price.

I got the dies.

There was no apology. There was no acknowledgement of error except to tell his subordinates to makes the dies, and a package in the mail.

This is the whole story. Anyone interested in seeing the this second set of email exchanges, PM me.

Friends of Dave Corbin can "spin" the fact that I ultimately got my dies any why they want. The TRUTH is that I got the dies ONLY after I WAS FORCED to PROVE that he had taken my money and kept if for two years AND THEN DENIED THAT THERE WAS AN ORDER. The facts speak for themselves. Dave Corbin and his friends will be pleased to know that there are NO circumstances - "in stock and ready to ship" included - that could possibly cause me to do business with him ever again. I'd do without bullet swaging equipment before I'd do business with Dave Corbin again.

In EBay parlance, this post is the "negative feedback" for this business transaction.

Talk is cheap. Reality is: "You will know them by their fruit."

Paul

M.A.D

09-10-2012, 07:48 PM

That must be the generic letter Corbin sends out to everyone, i have exactly the same thing from him, Mind you this was 7-8 years ago... And got exactly the same run around,2 months turned to 4, 4 to 8, 8 to 12... Then i was offered i could have the dies in like 3 weeks but they would cost me $1200 2.5 times what the original cost was... I even suggested why not put on 2-3 apprentice toolmakers, they cost bugger all and you usually get government assistance for taking them on.. End the end i went too RCE, and never looked back, And the latest ive ever been over due was 1 month... Ive also found him to be a great help, as he has worked hand in hand helping me with designs etc..... Im also looking forward to trying BTSnipers dies when he gets his Boat tail punches done..

KohlerK91

09-10-2012, 09:10 PM

Whoa, ask a silly question--"how long will my order take?" and get an equally silly answer:

http://www.corbins.com/delivery.htm

This page squirms with enough catches, exceptions, and loopholes to make the most evasive lawyer or politician proud!

lathesmith

WOW!!!! I just read the link and all I can say is WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!

....looks like 60 days .......and five minutes later.....about 90 days

All I see is 4,000 words of B.S.

Its like a long Resume............Bored after the first page...............................Time to chop some out and GET TO THE POINT

M.A.D

09-11-2012, 05:09 AM

Surely even if he hired two more Toolmakers (In Australia most are only on $25 a hour) I personally dont believe he would loose money on them, not even close.. the number of dies he could make extra would surely only generate profit..... Hell, Even Blackmon turns out dies quicker... and hes a one man band and still works full time..

Lizard333

09-11-2012, 07:42 AM

Just buy from Richard. Heck, he was making them for his brother before he left. You can save a little coin and some frustration. That is ridiculous they way he treated it.

Bollocks

09-11-2012, 09:02 AM

Hi gents,

Over 2 years ago I ordered some dies and other stuff from D. Corbin (paid for the whole order). I recieved everything pretty fast except a lead wire extruder. I was informed it was on backlog.

Fair enough, so I asked updates every 6 months but still was told the item was on backlog.

Half year ago I ordered a few more items and a few months later was informed the items were ready to be shipped. I recieved them but still no lead wire extruder.

I mailed D. Corbin and then was told the extruder was already delivered in 2010 according to his records.... Luckily I still had the emails of him stating the extruder was backlogged. So he admitted his mistake and sent one free of S&H recently. That was nice but rather I'd have it 2 years earlier.

Chrs from the Netherlands,
Bollocks