Best 1911 for the buck within $200.00 ?

[Changeling]

I guess the title says it all ! I have always wanted a "Class Act .45" for home defense and just having some great fun with! It should also, be in a class that will increase in value over time since I will be leaving it to my son one day, hopefully a long time from now, LOL!

I know absolutely nothing about them, actually never even held one!

So about all I can say is what do the experts recommend ?
There is getting to be so many companies out there making them that it is impossible for someone to make a choice without being extremely knowledgeable on 1911's and whats "Out There"!

[44MAG#1]

This a joke right. A 1911 of a decent brand? I want to know here I can get one too. Maybe 5 or 6.

[Shooter6br]

Bought used $599.00 Happy with it

[Shooter6br]

Nothing at $200.00 Not even a beat one

[TornMonkey]

The cheapest 1911 that I have seen that isn't a paperweight is the Rock Island Armory (Armscor) Tactical.

I don't have one, but a buddy does, it's a shooter.

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

Best for the money that I have found is the Taurus PT1911. Full size 1911 type with all the "bells and whistles" and priced half to 2/3rds what you would pay for a Kimber, Ed Brown or other high dollar 1911.

I own one in SS and it does exactly what it is supposed to do. Put a lot of boolits, yes, I load it with cast boolits, into a small area of the target aabout 15 yards downrange.

I have a South Carolina CCP and it goes where I go.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[klcarroll]

I too wish that there was a good re-make of a Model 1911 available for $200!! (...or even $300!)

But Oh Well..............., If wishes were fishes....................


......But let's consider a line from the Original Post: "I have always wanted a "Class Act .45" for home defense and just having some great fun with!"

First of all I think it is worth pointing out that "A Class Act", like "Beauty", is in the eye of the beholder: ....And I found this out for myself.

There's a U.S. company that I have pretty much ignored for the past decade because I used to be one of those snobs that equated "Low Cost" with "*********". (I really should have known better, just based on my experiences with LEE products!)

This company produces a line of handguns and long guns, and in addition to very reasonable prices, they provide a "NO BS Lifetime Warranty": .....That caught my attention! I figured that there had to be a catch; .....as the weapons they produced were simply too cheap to support that kind of warranty: .......Unless they simply didn't break! (....And what planet would you have to be from to believe THAT???)

Then, about a year ago, the company announced that they were now extending their "No BS Warranty" to all subsequent purchasers of their USED weapons!

These goofs were actually DARING me to break one of their used guns!!!! That was too much for me! ..........So I bought a used (but like new) Hi Point JHP on Gunbroker for $105! (...You can buy new ones all day long for $169; ....But I'm CHEAP!)

In the time I have had that weapon, I have run over 2500 rounds through it: .....ALL of them Lee truncated cone, tumble lubed boolits that I cast myself.

It hasn't skipped a beat.

It shoots the same, boring, 4"-5" group at 25 yards time after time after time.

It shows no visible sign of wear.

.......Sure, ...it's big, heavy, and ugly: ......But so am I.

Is it "great fun"?? ..........Yup!!!!

Would I trust it for Home Defense??? .......Absolutely!!


I will still snap up any bargain 1911s that I run across, because I love 1911s! .....But if you're just looking for .45 ACP fun, there ARE ways of getting there for under $200!


Kent

[bobthenailer]

you might find a used Llama 1911 style pistol for $ 250 to $ 300 ! a local gun shop has 3 of them 2 with 5 inch barrels and another with possibley a 3.5 inch barrel in that price range and his prices are usually very good , I alomost forgot that price is out the door including all fees & taxes.

[wildcatter]

you might find a used Llama 1911 style pistol for $ 250 to $ 300 ! a local gun shop has 3 of them 2 with 5 inch barrels and another with possibley a 3.5 inch barrel in that price range and his prices are usually very good , I alomost forgot that price is out the door including all fees & taxes.

And any 1911 lama is about as close to a paper weight as you can get! not nesasserily a good one either! Sorry but don't trust your family's life to a $200.00 or $300.00 1911, they are really not reliable. If you can find such a thing!

[bobthenailer]

I would personaly not buy a Llama but i would also expect to pay alot more than $200 for the ones i would buy ! heack ive spent almost that much or more for just 1 barrel for my 1911s not counting fitting .

[azcruiser]

I think for the money right now it's hard to beat the Taurus 1911 for what you get .checkered front strap-front slide serrations-ambidextrous thumb safety plus a nice trigger. Have seen them in 38 super from CDNN for $399 blue stainless $449. Think most of the others in that price range are made with imported Philippines frames and slides and just assembled here .Nothing wrong with that
but think the finish on the Taurus is nicer. Don't think they would maybe go up in values like a COLT or Springfield over the long haul .Just my 2cents view

[Blammer]

RIA compact version $400 about as cheap and dependable as you can get.

[Matthew 25]

I think for $200 I would buy a sword.

[NickSS]

I have a Llama 1911 in 9mm that I have shot plenty of rounds through and it is a fine shooting reliable gun. Years ago I had a full size one in 45ACP and aside from it not taking standard 1911 mags it was a fine pistol that shot well and never jammed on me. I can not say that for several other 1911s I have had including several made by Colt until the received a lot of rework. So as for my two cents worth as to your question. Today there is no such thing as a $200 1911 pistol the last time I saw one in that price range it was in the 70s ad it was a very hard used Gun made of parts on an essexs frame. It cost me $175 in 1976. It still works fine but looks kike a paper weight that has seen better days. If I were looking today I would look at a RIA 1911 at around $500 as being a good buy.

[Poygan]

I bought a Llama Max-1 for $225 used about ten years ago. I would characterize it as shooting about as well as a standard GI .45. Not great for accuracy but it was reliable with everything I fed it including the Lee TC boolits. I think I sold it for about what I paid for it, including the box and papers.

[nascarkent]

I think he is talking about $200 of the final price $700 to $900.
If you want a 1911 to go up in value just buy a Colt. Nuff said

[mtgrs737]

I bought a used Taurus PT 1911 from a member here and was surprized at what a well made gun it was. I paid a little over $300 for it if memory serves me right (and sometimes it doesn't) but I am very happy with it as it has a LOT of custom features that other brands don't give you at twice that price. It also has a forged frame, slide, and barrel which IMHO is the best way to manufacture a firearm. It does have some MIM parts but I have not had any problems with that type of part on any gun I have owned and if I did Taurus has a great warranty program. For someone looking for a 1911 45 auto at the most reasonable price you can't go wrong with a lightly used PT1911 in blue or stainless steel. Good luck!

[x101airborne]

I think he is talking about $200 of the final price $700 to $900.
If you want a 1911 to go up in value just buy a Colt. Nuff said

But for God's sake, dont shoot it!! The disappointment will tear you up. I have owned two Gold Cup's, one combat commander, and three government models. These were mixed series some 70's and some 80's. They all needed some heavy fitting to make function reliably, the commander would F-up no matter what I did. My 400 dollar used kimber will outshoot my gold cup 80 stainless and my Rock Island will feed every kind of cheap ammo you can feed it including straight wadcutters and primed empty cases with straight mouths. Sure, as an investment the Colt is the way to go. Short of that, I would get the Taurus or the Rock.

[white eagle]

I bought a Dan Wesson Razorback and made 200.00 installments
but after seeing the err of my way I sold it for one installment of 750.00

[saz]

My wife bought me a Rock A1 style 1911 for our anniversary a few months ago for the grand total of $385 on gunbroker (PM me if you want the seller), and I have to say it has been a shooter. I have been out of the loop for about 6 weeks, but when I first got it I tried a lot of different boolits in it and it feeds well and is surprisingly accurate. My goto boolit is the lee copy H&G 68- it runs awesome with this or anything else with a round nose profile. I still can't believe it works this good. I have about 2000 rounds or so through it, so it is barely broke in- time will tell, but so far so good.

[waksupi]

But for God's sake, dont shoot it!! The disappointment will tear you up. I have owned two Gold Cup's, one combat commander, and three government models. These were mixed series some 70's and some 80's. They all needed some heavy fitting to make function reliably, the commander would F-up no matter what I did. My 400 dollar used kimber will outshoot my gold cup 80 stainless and my Rock Island will feed every kind of cheap ammo you can feed it including straight wadcutters and primed empty cases with straight mouths. Sure, as an investment the Colt is the way to go. Short of that, I would get the Taurus or the Rock.

Must be the luck of the draw. I have an Argentine 1911, and a Combat Commander. Both run flawlessly. The CC is my daily carry pistol.

[buck1]

Para for about $500.00 A good solid basic 1911. At least the one I got is. good shooter.

[Shooter6br]

My Dad use to say" Buy the best you can afford and cry only once"

[Changeling]

Well it's evident that I presented this in a manner that few understood what I was saying, so I'll try again.

I did not mean a pistol for $200.00, I thought that would be "Logical" to most, sorry.

I meant within the highest prices give or take ($200.00) what is the Best with a good chance for resale value down the road and still be a top of the heap pistol ( Now/accuracy/reliability) regardless of its Company name. If this is still confusing please answer on any point .

[NHlever]

I had a compact RIA 1911 for a while, and it was a good gun. I only sold it to get a 1911 with a 4" barrel. I just bought a Ruger 1911 full size gun, and it is in the lower price range, but way above your $200 hope as all decent 1911's , and most 1911 junk is. So far it has been a very good gun. Nice sights, shoots where it points, and makes holes close together on the target.

[Groo]

Groo here
OK Ruger 1911 all USA

[NHlever]

Sorry, like some others, I read your post too quickly, and drew the wrong conclusions.

[Lonerider]

Hey there, plus one on th Taurus PT1911. Mine cost right at $500, and I very please with her performance and reliability. I know that Taurus gets a bum rap at times, but my PT1911 has been a solid performer with little in the ways of hick-ups. For the price, I believe it to be a good value. My has shot various cast, hollows and ball ammo with out so much of a glitch.

Ruger did not have theirs out when I was looking. But even if they did, I would still have bought the PT1911, becuase I like blue over stainless and all steel over alloys and aluminum.

Lonerider

[Lloyd Smale]

two best bang for the buck guns in my opinion are the tarurs and the sti spartan. Id take the spartan if for no other reason then it didnt say tarus on it anywhere!

[Bass Ackward]

Well it's evident that I presented this in a manner that few understood what I was saying, so I'll try again.

I did not mean a pistol for $200.00, I thought that would be "Logical" to most, sorry.

I meant within the highest prices give or take ($200.00) what is the Best with a good chance for resale value down the road and still be a top of the heap pistol ( Now/accuracy/reliability) regardless of its Company name. If this is still confusing please answer on any point .



The problem is that as you go up in price, you lose the number of guys willing to pay that much for something to be used. And for the guys that won't bat an eye, they would rather buy new.

Can you imagine paying $10,000.00 for a Wilson in 20 years?

So if you figure that everything takes a haircut at first and then climbs over the years, I would go with a mid range name. Something like Ruger or Kimber if it's all steel. Those companies aught to be survivors in the 1911 wars.

That may also be a key to .... value.

[Changeling]

The problem is that as you go up in price, you lose the number of guys willing to pay that much for something to be used. And for the guys that won't bat an eye, they would rather buy new.

Can you imagine paying $10,000.00 for a Wilson in 20 years?

So if you figure that everything takes a haircut at first and then climbs over the years, I would go with a mid range name. Something like Ruger or Kimber if it's all steel. Those companies aught to be survivors in the 1911 wars.

That may also be a key to .... value.


Thank Bass, I was starting to get nervious as to some of the answers. I just wish people would read all of ones posts before starting to "Blabber on and on", I,m not necessarily looking for used if I find a deal on a used model! , Thanks for the post clarification, Chageling.

[HDS]

This seems like a job for a Norinco, but you can't get those in america. (edit: ah well I saw the correction)

Though in all honesty just get springfield mil-spec. (edit: this still stands though)

[azcruiser]

Little trivia for you guys/gals . Which college did the president or past president of TAURUS graduate from??? I been out of the industry for a while but it was United States Navel Academy aka
Annapolis,

[David LaPell]

I hope you don't think you mean a 1911 for $200 because unless you're thinking Airsoft, one doesn't exist. However, for around $500-$600 I would suggest either a Para Ordnance GI Expert or a new Remington 1911. I wouldn't take a Taurus 1911 because I have seen several have major parts failures, so I don't trust them, along with any other Taurus.
This reminds me of a discussion (rather spirited) when I was working at a table at a gunshow with a friend and some guy came up and asked what kind of decent .38 revolver he could get for under $100. We laughed at him because we thought he was kidding and then he pulled out the $100. It seems he was new to guns, just got his permit and could not believe how much guns really cost. He thought that they were all made overseas or something and we were trying to rip him off. My friend even showed him a nice Model 10 for $250 used and he could not understand why the gun cost so much, to him it should have been so much less.

[klcarroll]

Once a thread gets to be thirty some posts long, it's usually a good idea to read the entire thread before responding to the O.P.


Kent

[Char-Gar]

Best I can do is a Norinco 1911A1 I bought for $280.00 in a Corpus Christi Texas pawn shop five years ago. I replaced the springs, added King Hardball sights and some mesquite grips. It is a top notch pistol.

I like it so much I bought another the next year for $320 and modified it the same way. Great pistols for very little money.

Bill Clinton put a stop on importing these, but there are still out there on the used market.

[RugerSP101]

I guess the title says it all ! I have always wanted a "Class Act .45" for home defense and just having some great fun with! It should also, be in a class that will increase in value over time since I will be leaving it to my son one day, hopefully a long time from now, LOL!

I know absolutely nothing about them, actually never even held one!

So about all I can say is what do the experts recommend ?
There is getting to be so many companies out there making them that it is impossible for someone to make a choice without being extremely knowledgeable on 1911's and whats "Out There"!
Honestly....dont spend a dime less than $450 on a new handgun.
No offense to any who have, but Ive had my share of $150-300 handguns and just enough of them were less than desirable.

You'll have this thing the rest of your life. Its worth paying $500+ for it now. You wont regret it :)

[RugerSP101]

My Dad use to say" Buy the best you can afford and cry only once"
My dad and grandfather were the same.
Put the effort/money in now and you wont regret it later.

Ive spent so much money on low end guns over the years. Not one of them are still around.
Lots of wasted cash better spent on ONE quality gun.

[harvester]

Uh, Colt.

[robertbank]

Best I can do is a Norinco 1911A1 I bought for $280.00 in a Corpus Christi Texas pawn shop five years ago. I replaced the springs, added King Hardball sights and some mesquite grips. It is a top notch pistol.

I like it so much I bought another the next year for $320 and modified it the same way. Great pistols for very little money.

Bill Clinton put a stop on importing these, but there are still out there on the used market.

This is going to kill you but we still get them up here. $349Cdn + tax out the door. The new "Police" models are very nice. I have the older style GI type models. I had two gunsmiths do their thing with a Commander and a full size. Joe Dlask out of Vancouver did the full size. I use it for IDPA. Accurate without outstanding steel in them. The Norinco copy of the SIG 226 is a pretty good deal as well for the same $349CDN ($342US). I have yet to have a failure of any kind.

Take Care

Bob

[Buddy]

Just buy a Colt, anything else is a clone. Being the 100th anniversary there are quite a few different variations available. Don't worry about resale value of a Colt. After a few thousand rnds. you won't want to sell it. If you ever need to sell it, the resale on Colt 1911's is as good as it gets.

[wildcatter]

If you are serious about a 1911, and want something you can trust your life with I think the it is worth the money to buy the best, spend 700.00 and your half way to a gun that is what all other 1911's are compared to, or that all other 1911's are sent out to try and be built to the same standards the Les Baer is!!!! you can spend more but you can't buy a 1911 that will shoot as accurate and very few will be as reliable, and none will stay as tight. I have over 3000 rounds of everything you can imagine threw it and not one hickup! and how many will shoot 3/4" inch 9 shot groups at 25 yards, I hunt groundhogs out to 100 yards with it and don't miss very often at that range, in my 56 years of shooting I have never had a better 1911, and I have owned about all of em from one time or an other, and spent 1000's having diferent ones built!! I bought one Les Baer and will never buy anything else, the Les Baer is king of the 1911's!
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu266/saumbi/XD7P4684.jpg

[jh45gun]

Best 1911 for the buck within $200.00 ?

Your usage of the within $200.00 is confusing If you would have said best higher end 1911 for the buck you would have gotten the answers you were looking for. As usual you state something goofy then get irritated when folks do not understand you.

[Lloyd Smale]

wildcatter your baer is a beauty. I had a premier myself and there good guns. I also had three kimbers. One that was about 800 and two that were a bit more then a grand. About half what i had into my baer. My 800 dollar alloy comander kimber is just as reliable as my baer but not as accurate. Plenty accurate to defend myself against ANY human or animal attacker. It will shoot 2 inch 25 yard groups. Plenty accurate out to any range your going to shoot instead of run. MY gold match is just as accurate as my accuracy guranteed baer was and just as relible. It was the reason the baer went down the road. It just didnt do anything the kimber didnt at half the price. I also have a cdp that is a 4 inch gun with an officers sized grip frame. It runs like a clock and is almost as accuate as the gold match if you use ammo that is target ammo instead of self defense ammo. Not trying to argue that you have a real fine gun there. But you dont have to spend 2k to get a good 1911. Theres a good many of them for a grand that are good guns. Kimbers, stis, Colts and even though im not a springfield fan there trp certainly is a great gun and there all half the cost of a baer or wilson or ed brown or simular guns and a surely good enough to trust your life to. As a matter of fact ill go so far as to say the cdp kimbers (ive owned two) are one of the best ccw guns at any price on the market. They are hand fit in the custom shop and have a carry melt and to have a simular gun built by a gunsmith would probably cost you 3 times the money and would be no better. the beauty of cnc machines is they do more accurate work then any gunsmith can and do it fast enough that it keeps the prices down to almost entry level that along with the fact that a company like kimber sells proably a 100 to 1 compared to baer or wilsons ect. It makes it kind of obvious where your going to get your best bang for your buck. By the way 3000 rounds without a hiccup is good. I wont even carry a 1911 unless it will run a 1000 without a hiccup and i would guess that a couple of my guns have well over 20k and my colt gold cup has probably 50k and the only troubles its ever had are caused by bad handloads or spring wear and any 1911 is suseptable to those problems. Back when i shot competitively 3k wasnt even a good month.

[Lloyd Smale]

by the way wildcatter im more in agreement with you then not. At least to a point. Im not going to trust myself to a 500 dollar 1911 either. You can keep your norincos, rock islands, llamas ect. Ive seen good examples of them and ive also see complete junk. but a good gun can be bought for around a grand.

[6bg6ga]

Quote:
Just buy a Colt, anything else is a clone. Being the 100th anniversary there are quite a few different variations available. Don't worry about resale value of a Colt. After a few thousand rnds. you won't want to sell it. If you ever need to sell it, the resale on Colt 1911's is as good as it gets.


I would recommend anything but a Colt. Every single Colt 1911 I have owned either new or used has been prone to trouble. The last abortion was a Colt officers in stainless that malfunctioned since day one. After several hundred dollars invested it will almost function and shoot simple round nose ammunition. Almost that is:-).
It will mis function 95% of the time when trying to digest 200gr semi wad cutters dispute having been polished and prepped. You say Colt I say bullshirt.

[6bg6ga]

I do happen to carry the officers despite the fact that I do not trust it 100%. I like the potential knock down power if needed and do keep one in the chamber at all times.

If one is looking for a good low priced 1911 I would recommend a Sig Sauer Tac Pack. I bought one recently and the accuracy rivals a Gold Cup and it feeds and functions with ANY ammunition without having any gun smithing done to it.

[Changeling]

wildcatter your baer is a beauty. I had a premier myself and there good guns. I also had three kimbers. One that was about 800 and two that were a bit more then a grand. About half what i had into my baer. My 800 dollar alloy comander kimber is just as reliable as my baer but not as accurate. Plenty accurate to defend myself against ANY human or animal attacker. It will shoot 2 inch 25 yard groups. Plenty accurate out to any range your going to shoot instead of run. MY gold match is just as accurate as my accuracy guranteed baer was and just as relible. It was the reason the baer went down the road. It just didnt do anything the kimber didnt at half the price. I also have a cdp that is a 4 inch gun with an officers sized grip frame. It runs like a clock and is almost as accuate as the gold match if you use ammo that is target ammo instead of self defense ammo. Not trying to argue that you have a real fine gun there. But you dont have to spend 2k to get a good 1911. Theres a good many of them for a grand that are good guns. Kimbers, stis, Colts and even though im not a springfield fan there trp certainly is a great gun and there all half the cost of a baer or wilson or ed brown or simular guns and a surely good enough to trust your life to. As a matter of fact ill go so far as to say the cdp kimbers (ive owned two) are one of the best ccw guns at any price on the market. They are hand fit in the custom shop and have a carry melt and to have a simular gun built by a gunsmith would probably cost you 3 times the money and would be no better. the beauty of cnc machines is they do more accurate work then any gunsmith can and do it fast enough that it keeps the prices down to almost entry level that along with the fact that a company like kimber sells proably a 100 to 1 compared to baer or wilsons ect. It makes it kind of obvious where your going to get your best bang for your buck. By the way 3000 rounds without a hiccup is good. I wont even carry a 1911 unless it will run a 1000 without a hiccup and i would guess that a couple of my guns have well over 20k and my colt gold cup has probably 50k and the only troubles its ever had are caused by bad handloads or spring wear and any 1911 is suseptable to those problems. Back when i shot competitively 3k wasnt even a good month.


Thanks Lloyd, what you have said makes perfect sense and your owning/observations of those .45's means a great deal to me. Thats one of the things I like about your responses, you tell it like it is in your post responses regardless of other peoples viewpoints, "Thanks", that is what this forum should always be about, the truth!

[jh45gun]

By the way this is a forum folks post and people reply. Some replies you may not like or agree withbut that is the nature of forums. When you post something your opening the door to all sorts of responses. It has nothing to do with stalking. LOL

[35remington]

6bg, tell me just what it is about an Officer's size gun that makes it much more likely to malfunction than a Commander or full size length gun and you will solve your functioning problem.....if you know what it might be, that is.

There are things you can do to increase the odds of reliable function, but the odds of malfunction will always be there in greater amounts than a larger 1911.

I wouldn't trust an officer's length gun no matter who made it. Even a super custom job made by (insert favorite manufacturer here).

Period.

This particular problem you cannot lay at Colt's feet, I believe. Other manufacturers have frequent issues with short 1911's. This is a case of more knowledge leading the buyer to purchase a more reliable piece than a short 1911, and winding up happy due to good decisionmaking rather than blaming the manufacturer for not being able to polish a turd, so to speak.

And comparatively speaking, short 1911's are turds.

Try these on for size:

http://privateofficernews.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/nc-ale-agents-say-kimber-weapons-were-unreliable-www-privateofficer-com/

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/06/971004/ales-pricey-guns-prove-unreliable.html

It would be tempting, after reading these articles, to say "Kimber sucks, too!" but quite frankly the odds of making a shortie 1911 choke are very, very high.

[mroliver77]

I carry a Colt Commander 1991A1 model. It is a very accurate (foir what it is) and dependable gun. I play a little IDPA with it and carry it while doing chores etc. The finish is getting beat up and the hard plastic does not help but it sure carries nice and is fast and secure.
$650 used like new from a show.

With the Mihec H&G #68 boolit over 4gr Titewad it never has issues. Runs well clean or filthy! I have killed quite a few critters at ranges that would get me called a fibber! ;)
I carried a Rock Island Filipino thing for a year. It was $249. new when they came out. Never one issue with it! It fed even the 452423 well. I would carry another if needed.
J

[6bg6ga]

quote:
This particular problem you cannot lay at Colt's feet, I believe. Other manufacturers have frequent issues with short 1911's. This is a case of more knowledge leading the buyer to purchase a more reliable piece than a short 1911, and winding up happy due to good decision making rather than blaming the manufacturer for not being able to polish a turd, so to speak.


I can't lay this at Colt's feet? I surely think that I can. This gun has not functioned correctly since day one. All the inners (springs and things) have been replaced with higher quality aftermarket pieces. The ramp was also polished.

I believe the angle of the ramp is incorrect since it seems to stovepipe almost anything fed to it with the exception of military ball ammunition. I have had experience with other Officer's and they haven't experience the same problems.
The gun had its inners replaced after running less than 50 rounds thru it. The problem doesn't lie with SHORT 1911's either. I have shot a number of KImbers and other makes that didn't experience any problems. I have owned a number of different makes and models of Colt as well as other manufacturers firearms. I believe I have the experience needed to purchase a firearm but in this case I happened to get a lemon or turd as some would call it. I will not give up however as I will get it to function correctly with any ammunition but I doubt that anything will remain Colt with the exception of the slide and frame.

I will say that the quality of Colt has turned to **** and will NEVER purchase another one.

[6bg6ga]

Quote:
And comparatively speaking, short 1911's are turds.

Try these on for size:

http://privateofficernews.wordpress....teofficer-com/

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/...nreliable.html

After reading the articles I find them highly questionable considering my experience and others with the Kimber Short 1911's I'm pulling the BS cord on this one. LOL

[waksupi]

I don't like the short 1911's, as they are very grip sensitive. I think this may be the source of many of the problems with them. I love my Combat Commander, and wouldn't go any shorter. It is also somewhat grip sensitive, as if I loosen mine much, it reminds me by ejecting a case on top of my head.

By the way, you gave two dead links.

[BD]

Other than a Ruger 22/45, 1911s are the only auto loading handguns I've ever owned. My grandfather carried a 1911, my father carried a 1911 and I carry a 1911.

JMB designed the 1911 at a time when all firearms were hand fitted. Today, as a result of CNC machining, 1911s are available from many sources as an "assembly line" production item. Any of these assembly line pistols can be just fine, although sometimes they are not. 99% will be OK with a pretty basic "fluff and Buff".

For considerably more money a person can purchase a hand fitted 1911 from several sources. These hand fitted pistols have a much higher chance of being reliable and accurate out of the box, but that is not always the case. I've seen two new custom Wilsons have hiccups at matches until they were well broken in.

Personally I've had excellent luck with Series I Kimbers, in all barrel lengths. I have a 3" Ultra carry that was my carry gun for years. As long as I stay within the parameters of loads and maintenance it requires it has always been 100 % reliable. I also own a series II Kimber with a 4" barrel and a full size grip frame. It was produced as a "Pro Tactical" shortly after Kimber went to the firing pin safety and I was the third owner within four months of it's production due to fitting issues with the FP safety which made the normal take down procedure very difficult. I managed to get it apart and did the fitting along with a Bob tail job. It's been 100% ever since and 5,000 rounds later it's my go to carry gun if I'm wearing enough clothes to carry a 1911.

Wildcatter was kind enough to post a pic of a beautiful new Les Baer which will really hold a group. I'm gonna post a picture of a gun that which will only keep them in 2" at 25 yards in my hands, (could be me as well). I paid $550 for this pistol in 1995. This spring I put in a new bushing, extractor, ejector, slide stop, pin and link. I know that's a lot of new parts, but after 70,000 rounds I'm not complaining. Sorry about the quality of the photo. I had to shoot it without the flash. There's so many shiny spots If I use the flash, you can't see the gun.

[doubs43]

I shot my first 1911A1 more than 50 years ago; an unissued, brand new, 1943 Colt. I now own a 1927 Argentine, a .22LR converted 1927 Argentine and a GI Springfield Armory 1911A1. I've also owned a Rock Island Armory Tactical and a High Standard built by RIA. The Tactical went to a son and I traded the HS for a Winchester rifle in 38-55.

The 1927 Argentine is by my bed and has been 100% reliable. It was obviously used and today they bring as much or more than a new RIA. My RIA 1911's were also reliable and I have absolutely nothing bad to say about them.... I simply had too many 1911's.

The Springfield Armory GI Model has been completely reliable for the 400 or 500 rounds I've put through it. Let me add that the left grip panel had a defect that I didn't notice when I bought the Springfield. I called customer service, explained the defect and offered to return the panel for a replacement. I was told to keep it and that a new set of grips were on the way. Within a few days I had a new set of grip panels on my pistol that are perfect.

Considering your stated purposes of home protection and "having fun", I don't see the need for anything more expensive than the SA GI Model or the Mil-Spec Model. All things being equal, the Mil-Spec would likely be the best choice as it has better sights, beveled mag well, lowered ejection port and a few other "improvements". IMO, the SA offerings will also hold their value quite well.

You've been given a smorgasbord of opinions and experiences covering a wide range of prices, makes and models. My opinions above are based on my experience and I offer them only for what they're worth. Let us know what you decide to purchase and how it works out for you.

[waksupi]

There are two members posting on this topic who are about to go on vacation, if they don't change their ways.

[6bg6ga]

Quote:
By the way, you gave two dead links.


Well I believe I copied and pasted them as shown in a reply before mine. I apologize for the dead links. I don't know what I did wrong. One can surely click onto the links I was trying to make available and read the information.

[singleshot]

you might find a used Llama 1911 style pistol for $ 250 to $ 300 ! a local gun shop has 3 of them 2 with 5 inch barrels and another with possibley a 3.5 inch barrel in that price range and his prices are usually very good , I alomost forgot that price is out the door including all fees & taxes.

Yes, I have a Llama Max-1. After 7 years and about 5000 rounds, I have yet to do anything to it but clean, lube and tighten screws. I paid about $230 for it brand new. It HAD a lifetime warranty, too! HA HA HA HA HA! My original magazine split the mouth, maybe I'll send it back for a replacement.

Actually, the best thing I ever did was buy Wilson Combat mags.

[singleshot]

Oh, and as long as we're on the subject, here's an eye-witness account. My buddy bought a NIB Sig P229. After I beat him in every competition AND had better reliability with my Llama, he declared, "you're a better shooter than me." We proceeded to change guns, and he outshot me for the next 3 sets. He promptly got rid of that gun.

For full disclosure, I did fluff and buff mine, he did not.

Sometimes you get what you pay for, and sometimes, you just get ripped off.

That said, I do like the Rock Island 1911 and the Taurus 1911.

Still, shoot the gun before you buy it, don't get starry, googly-eyed syndrome over the brand.

I've shot Colt, Les Baer, and others, and in a few cases, still prefered my Llama.

[KCSO]

I have sold at this point an even dozen RIA 1911's and NO ONE is unhappy with them. Tey have all been good shooters and fed any ammo and had pretty decent triggeres from the box. If you want to step it up a notch I woud go with the Para single stack I have a commander an it is a sweet shooter. Now as to Colts, I have yet to buy a Colt that didn't need work from the box to make a decent combat gun. In 1073 I bought a brand new Colt Gold Cup and the trigger was poor the gun didn't feed properly and the rear sight fell off after 18 shots. Luckily my partner in the cruiser was a fellow with a long curly mustache and a passion for making guns work right. We spent several nights correcting the Gold Cups problems and then I was able to shoot mid ninties with it. Colt has gotten by on name way too long and it's no surprise they are just about out of business.

[35remington]

Indulge me for a minute. I guess I feel pretty strongly about it.

What is it about short 1911's that makes them inherently unreliable? Kimber, Colt, Springfield, whoever?

It has to do with time and space. Time for the cartridge to rise up from the magazine, and time for the breechface to allow the spent cartridge to clear and the fresh cartridge to rise before the slide returns forward.

Shortie 1911's have little slide travel past the magwell before the breech returns forward. This allows much, much less time for the cartridge to rise out of the magazine and for the spent one to clear.

See this for yourself. Compare to a full size. A full size breechface travels well past the magwell in its cycle; a short 1911's does not.

The link I posted is a real news article that shows problems Kimber has been having with getting their shortie 1911's to work. It was more a lesson in avoiding short 1911's than an indictment of brand as I do not believe Kimbers are inferior......but without proper understanding of the issues involved, Kimber is getting dragged over the coals a bit. Kimber suffers from it, as does Colt and any other maker of short 1911's.

Perhaps that's their fault for issuing them in the first place, but hey, it was their marketing decision, not mine.

Stovepipes are symptomatic of problems with short 1911's......and Kimber suffered from this issue as your Colt does.

Don't mean that Kimber makes a bad pistol any more than Colt does. It's the design. Should you doubt, see the following link:

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=54403

The odds of a "lemon" are much, much higher with a shortie than a full size, given the myriad magazine/gun brand/aftermarket parts out there. Some help; most make things worse.

I'd sooner trust my life to a revolver than any short 1911. Problems with short 1911's are not brand specific, and any perusal of 1911's sites will reveal problems with them occur with much, much greater frequency than standard size 1911's.

You may wish to give the manufacturer the opportunity to improve things, but generally:

No Shok Buffs as they reduce slide travel and increase the odds of outrunning the magazine. Slide travel is already at a minimum and below needed levels; a Shok Buf makes it worse.

No heavy recoil springs as they outrun the magazine.

No magazines of eight shot capacity or weak magazine springs because....yep, you guessed it, they increase the odds of the magazine being outrun.

There is also less time for the case to eject and clear the gun before the slide goes forward, increasing the odds of the gun interfering with the removal of the spent casing and the proper feeding of the next one in line.

Whenever someone mentions problems with a short 1911, regardless of brand, I immediately think......therein lies the main component of the problem.......it's short.

Not whether it's a Kimber, Colt, Springfield, or whatever, so forgive me if I immediately think the short length is your problem, as it usually is.

Kimber, Colt, Springfield, et. al. are satisfying the majority of their customers the majority of the time. Nobody's perfect, and if all of (insert brand name here) pistols were bad, and there was a high likelihood of getting a lemon, they'd be out of business.

As far as I know, they are all selling as many 1911's as they can build. Successfully.

But of all the variants, the short ones, from any maker, are the most problematic, and the biggest gamble. I'm more likely to go with the original design as it's most likely to function as intended. JMB would never have condoned a 1911 that short, in my opinion.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive got two comander lenght kimbers and have had two 3 inch kimbers and one 3inch springfield in the past. My comanders have been just as reliable as any 5 inch gun and my 3 inch cdp was too. I didnt have the other 3 inch gun long enough to really say anything either way but the short time i had it it was a good gun too. the 3 inch springfield was junk. One of my commanders is even one of the dredded external extractor guns. That gun was a bit troublesome when i first got it and i sent it back to kimber and after they adjusted the extractor its never missed a beat and has had thousands of rounds through it. When they started replacing those slides with internal extractor slides i considered sending it in to get one but after about 10 seconds of thinking i passed. It runs absoultely flawlusly as it is. Im not saying 3 inch and even 4 inch guns cant be tempermental but i will say this. Theres not a doubt on my that they can be built to run right. Id trust my life to mine. As a matter of fact i do. IMO much of the hoopla about them not working comes from the first attemps at homeschooled gunsmiths cutting them down or from the cheap off brands. Its surely not an exception to buy a good commander lenght gun anymore and theres many good 3 inch guns on the market too. this opinion comes from actually shooting them not repeating someone elses story off the internet that is more then likely just a repeat of someone elses story ect. ect. If you doubt my word you more then welcome to come over and ill give you a gun and a thousand rounds and you can find out for yourself. By the way I have had bad commanders and one bad 3 inch gun. they were all springfields and i know some like them but i wont own another. Ive also had bad 5 inch guns. Two from colt and one from springfield so a guy can get a bad gun from any manufacture or any barrel lenght. I think that too might be where some people get there opinion. A guy buys one 3 inch gun and it wont run right so he then believes that all 3 inch guns are junk. Heck ive bought bolt action rifles that didnt work right!

[BD]

For whatever reason my experiences often seem to differ from the "internet majority". And that includes my experiences with handguns.

I've actually had more trouble getting revolvers to be reliable and accurate than 1911s. My recent S&W 442 is the only revolver I've ever owned that didn't need any work out of the box. I bought a DW M15 that had light strike issues until I shaved down the FP bushing, A DW 744 that had to go back as the chambers were all reamed to different depths, a S&W J-frame that was unreliable due to way off center FP hits on the primers and I went through 5 Ruger Red Hawks before coming up with one that would shoot all cylinders to the same point of aim, and then I had to lap the barrel to get it shoot cast without leading. I bought a lightly used S&W M36 years ago that I had to replace the hammer and mainspring on to get it to strike reliably. Between 10,000 and 12,000 rounds later that J frame is plumb wore out. Between the wear on the hand, and the wear on the FP bushing the primer hit lands almost anywhere.

On the other hand I've been able to get every 1911 I've owned to run like a champ. 3", 4" and 5" models. All it took was the usual "fluff and buff" that I give every new firearm. Even the WWI model that's been in the family since 1920 runs like a top. The only "lemon" I've owned was the Pro Tactical I mentioned earlier, and I bought that at a 40% discount, knowing it had issues. At 70,000 rounds on my Classic Custom it only took about $200 to put it back in the game, hopefully for another 50,000 rounds or so, and it was all work I could do at home with very simple hand tools.
Try that with your worn out revolver and see how far you get.
BD

[35remington]

Not saying a shortie 1911 can't be reliable....only that it takes getting more things right to get it that way and keep it that way. There's less redundancy built in, and more things that just barely work. When a spring takes a set, or load power increased, a parameter that was barely adequate before will be the cause of much trouble in more instances than with a full size gun that has more leeway to work when a factor or two isn't optimum.

Given statistical probabilities, and the possible combinations of parts and magazine and ammo and the various widgets that do as much to hurt reliability as to help it, the odds of a puking 1911 increase the shorter you go.

The unholy alliance of several negative factors combining in one gun....say, heavy loads, improper springs, and poor magazines, can make a shortie utterly frustrating to deal with in comparision to a larger 1911. For instance, the unknowing might combine a McCormick Shooting Star magazine, a heavier than standard recoil spring, and heavy loads in a shortie.......and the odds for a malfunction just went way, way up.

Just the odds working against you. It happens, and a 1911 can be a very problematic thing if too short.

Peruse the various manufacturer specific 1911 sites sometime. Complaints with shorties are the most commonly found.

[doubs43]

Even the WWI model that's been in the family since 1920 runs like a top. BD

Back in the late 1920's or early 1930's my father bought a WW1 Colt 1911 that had nearly zero finish left and a badly pitted barrel. A new surplus barrel cost $1.25 and he then had a completely reliable pistol. He told me several times that there was a tree stump in a meadow some 150 yards distance. Once he had the holdover figured he could hit it every time. Surplus WW1 ammo was cheap at the time and later, during WW2, he had a friend who worked as a gate guard at a military post. Every day his friend was issued a 1911 and two full mags. Each day he returned the pistol without the ammo. One day he handed my father a burlap sack with many hundreds of 45ACP cartridges in it. They lasted quite awhile.

[Lonerider]

....and.....sometimes we get a gun that was built on Wednesday! :bigsmyl2:

Lonerider

[6bg6ga]

quote:
Stovepipes are symptomatic of problems with short 1911's......and Kimber suffered from this issue as your Colt does.

I will have to disagree 100% with you.

Stovepipes are symptoms of guns that are not prepared correctly. What I am saying is this...if the angle of the ramp is incorrect and or not prepared /polished a stovepipe will be the result. This is true of ANY 1911 not just the short ones. I have experienced this with a number of full sized 1911's. This problem is not any more severe with Officers or Commanders.

Just for the record....Kimber as a whole suffers less with the problem of stovepipes as do the less expensive guns on the market. I personally know of at least 100 Kimbers(short ones) that belong to people I know. None have experienced the problem.

The problem lies in quality control in the manufacturing process of the gun. There are tolerances involved and if these tolerances are at either end of the range problems are likely to be experienced. Note ...I was a quality control inspector for a factory years ago so I do know something with respect to inspection and quality.

When I take my officers 1911 to the gun smith again and have its ramp ground and polished I am 100% certain it will accept ANY and ALL ammunition that it is fed despite its short length.

[35remington]

"Just for the record....Kimber as a whole suffers less with the problem of stovepipes as do the less expensive guns on the market."

You need to read the complaints on the Kimber forums. I'd say your opinion is based less on fact than you realize.

Point is, anyone that says "X" brand is worthless, compared to my "favorite", likely has a great many people that would contradict what he's saying most vociferously.

As here. Or ask that police department.

Two kinds of stovepipes:

Ejection, which has nothing to do with ramps or polishing whatsoever.

Live round, which may very well be an extreme bolt over base feed type situation, which is symptomatic of the slide outrunning the magazine in many instances....but not all. Shorties suffer from this more so than fullsize if it is caused by a slide timing/magazine spring relationship. Ramps would be equal despite gun size, agreed, but it ain't always ramps.

And yes, the shorter they go, they less likely they are to work right.

Love to continue the discussion, but I'm not going to change your mind any more than you are going to change mine. Send me a PM some time and I'll give you some more reference material if you wish, but we've reached the pointless part of the discussion, and it's not worth our time any more.

[Linstrum]

I have a Citadel copy of the 1911A1 I got new about three years ago. I occasionally shoot it at targets 100 YARDS away, and it patterns about a foot or so at that distance. Needs plenty of muzzle elevation for the Lee 225 grain truncated cone to get that far, though. I have only run a few hundred rounds through it so far. It will NOT feed the Lee 225 grain 1 radius ogive round nose, but the Lee 2 radius ogive round nose and Lee truncated cone do great, along with Silver Bear and Wolf commercial ammo from Russia.

rl 1006

[6bg6ga]

Just for the record....Kimber as a whole suffers less with the problem of stovepipes as do the less expensive guns on the market."

You need to read the complaints on the Kimber forums. I'd say your opinion is based less on fact than you realize.

Point is, anyone that says "X" brand is worthless, compared to my "favorite", likely has a great many people that would contradict what he's saying most vociferously.

As here. Or ask that police department.

Two kinds of stovepipes:

Ejection, which has nothing to do with ramps or polishing whatsoever.

Live round, which may very well be an extreme bolt over base feed type situation, which is symptomatic of the slide outrunning the magazine in many instances....but not all. Shorties suffer from this more so than full size if it is caused by a slide timing/magazine spring relationship. Ramps would be equal despite gun size, agreed, but it ain't always ramps.

And yes, the shorter they go, they less likely they are to work right.

Love to continue the discussion, but I'm not going to change your mind any more than you are going to change mine. Send me a PM some time and I'll give you some more reference material if you wish, but we've reached the pointless part of the discussion, and it's not worth our time any more.
************************************************** ***************
First of all congratulations are in order someone here actually knows what a stovepipe is and the rest are asleep.

Cannot say that I will agree on your perceptions of the short 1911's being more prone to problems than full sized 1911's. You base this information on what people are saying on the KImber forum or your own personal experience? I've owned a number of the short 1911's so I do feel somewhat qualified to comment on it. I personally could not nor would I recommend to anyone that they purchase any product from Colt and I would make the same comment if it were Kimber or another brand if they had the same problems that I have encountered. This is from someone that has been satisfied with a number of Gold Cups, Combat Commander's, and standard size. I have owned them in 9mm,38 super and 45cal. I actually based my comments on personal experience having owned them and not something read from someone on a Kimber forum hoping to obtain a new gun for nothing if they whine enough.

Quality control has a lot to do with functionality. You cannot point the finger at the short 1911's and say they stovepipe and or have problems feeding because of their short length. The problems in my case stem from the fact that the quality control has been misplaced. If the ramp angle is correct and the ramp is polished the gun will feed the round into the chamber period.

I will continue to pump money into my flawed Officers model until I get it to function correctly.

Bottom line is this... engineers have designed these. Companies simply do not market something that doesn't work if they want to stay in business. Kimber for my money has a far better quality control program then say Colt does. You base your comments on a paper you have read or what you have read on the Kimber forum. I base my comments on Kimber on personal experience of the Kimber 1911's that I have shot and actual feedback from Kimber owners that I know personally.

Oh, I have no favorite brands just something that is accurate and will function correctly.

If you feel that we have reached a point here in the discussion that is pointless then you are free not to comment.

[35remington]

Personal experience, and an all consuming desire to discover just why my results with shorties have been so terribly bad.

"You cannot point the finger at the short 1911's and say they stovepipe and or have problems feeding because of their short length."

Oh, yes I can. And I will continue to do so.

"Companies simply do not market something that doesn't work if they want to stay in business."

Companies market things that are less likely to work than the alternatives all the time. Look at the Yugo and the Ford Pinto's gas tank. The short 1911 is an obvious case as well. It's about managing risk, not about making a product that is perfect. A short 1911 is a less perfect 1911, unquestionably.

"If the ramp angle is correct and the ramp is polished the gun will feed the round into the chamber period."

No, they will not.

The ramp and polish are not solely responsible for proper function of a 1911 and whether the round gets to the chamber or not. A great many things enter into proper function. Overall length of the round, shape of the ogive, release timing of the magazine, the angle at which that particular magazine design presents the round to the chamber (they vary substantially) spring strength of the recoil spring, the presence of a shok buff (especially bad on a shortie), magazine spring strength, frame ramp/barrel ramp gap, and extractor tension all play a role in feeding. And that sure ain't everything. The last round in the magazine is particularly prone to misfeeding due to separation from the magazine on slide/frame impact. That's an inertia issue.

That's not all.

FWIW, ramp angle is a lot more important than polish. So I'll agree with you halfway, but you're leaving a lot out....and expecting a lot out of a shortie, when we don't know what else you've got going on that isn't helping. Weak mag spring? Poor magazine choice? Incompatible ammo? Bad extractor tension? Shok Buff in a shortie? Quite frankly, there's a whole lot to investigate. Not just the ramp.

Saying a perfect feed ramp will feed always, no matter what, is ignoring quite a lot of what makes a 1911 run, and run properly.

I feel you have completely missed the point on why short 1911's are not as reliable as the original length. For quite awhile, I did too, until someone pointed out the obvious.

If there is something in particular I have posted in terms of their function that you disagree with, state precisely what it is, if you would.

The limited slide travel is a very, very serious drawback in terms of timing issues and getting the round up in time. I know any number of short 1911's from various manufacturers that do not work right, and refuse to do so. I've owned some. I'm not going to point the finger at any maker as I consider all of them flawed due to their small size, first and foremost.

I prefer to rely on a pistol that is more likely to feed, rather than less likely.

It's easy to see why. Rack the slide to the very limit of its travel and hold it there. Look down the magwell. Tell me what you see versus a five inch. Relate that to live round stovepipes. Then tell me again they don't have limitations.

They do. And they will suffer reliability problems more often because of it.

The live round stovepipe is a classic example that is not a feed ramp problem much or most of the time in a shortie....it's time and distance related. If you're having live round stovepipes, this is often the severe manifestation of the bolt over base misfeed. I can tell you how to reduce the chance of it happening, but I won't promise you anything with a pistol that short as I would prefer a little more leeway to work with.

Again, this in not a guarantee of something working or not......only the increasing or decreasing likelihood of proper function. And the short slide travel explains exactly the problems I was having with them.

They are entirely too twitchy and temperamental for me.

[Ernest]

My answer is simple . Buy a collectable colt 1911.... a 1914 pre wwI or pre gold cup target model 1911.... put it in the safe. Then get a Sig p220 or glock 21 to shoot and carry.::coffeecom

[Piedmont]

I think 35 Remington absolutely knows what he is talking about.

Back before you could buy a gun with a Commander length top half and an lightweight Officer's length grip I had one built. It was the most frustrating gun experience I have had. My perfect carry gun never was anywhere near reliable enough to carry. It would throw live rounds out of the top of the gun and jam in other ways, too. My gunsmith had no idea why it was happening (which was a good clue about that gunsmith). I increased magazine spring tension but never did try a lighter recoil spring. The timing was all screwed up, and everytime I turned around it was more money. My smith thought a new barrel would fix it. There went more money and the gun still didn't work %100. It made me want to go to revolvers exclusively!

[6bg6ga]

Well 35 your entitled to your opinion just like I am mine. I don't buy into your particular ideas nor do you do mine. You cannot point the finger at the short 1911's and say they simply do not function just like it isn't fair for me to point the finger at Colt's Officers and say they are all bad. I have seen good Officers and totally non-functioning ones like mine. Never seen a non-functioning Kimber but then again I am sure there are some out there.

You did happen to stumble upon an important fact and I will give you that. Recoil springs and magazine springs do have a bearing on functionality. In my case I have changed the original recoil spring (have 3 in different lb ratings) as well as a cut down original spring. I have tried a number of different magazines as well as replaced the original mag spring. Actually have played with my brother in laws officers model with my loads,recoil spring, and mag spring. His works, mine doesn't. But then you say they all don't work and all I have to do is look and see the difference between a full sized 1911 and my officers and I will see why. Sorry still do not buy into your thinking.

I do happen to like the way a full sized 1911 feels in my hand but unfortunately they do not conceal well and thus my interest in the short 1911. Have run across a few Officers models that do work and they seem to function better if a blued model instead of stainless like mine for some reason.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive got a kimber cdp that is this exact gun. A commander slide on an officers grip frame. It is hands down my favority 1911 for ccw. I wish you could come and shoot it as it never misses a beat and will shock you with how accurate it is. I dont care what any of the naysayers have to say about it. Ive had to many QUALITY 3 and 4 inch guns that ran perfectly. Ive also had a couple cheaper springfields that needed to be thrown in the lake. Its soured me on springfields totaly. Why kimber can make them run and the springfields i had were junk is beyond me. Funny thing is my buddy right now has a 3 inch springfield that runs as good as my kimber so either they improved, he got lucky or i was unlucky. But to be honest i had one 5 inch springfield from that same time era and it was junk too. theres no doubt there a bit tougher to get reliable but it sure can be done. To many internet experts spout off that it cant but id guess that out of all of them 75 percent are just passing info they themselves just read on the internet in a vain attempt to look like they know what there talking about and the other 25 percent are the guys who buy those cheap 4oo dollar 1911s and claim there intelegent because there as good as the top line guns are. Id about just as soon light a 500 dollar bill on fire as buy a 3 inch 1911 with it. The stess it would save would be well worth it.
I think 35 Remington absolutely knows what he is talking about.

Back before you could buy a gun with a Commander length top half and an lightweight Officer's length grip I had one built. It was the most frustrating gun experience I have had. My perfect carry gun never was anywhere near reliable enough to carry. It would throw live rounds out of the top of the gun and jam in other ways, too. My gunsmith had no idea why it was happening (which was a good clue about that gunsmith). I increased magazine spring tension but never did try a lighter recoil spring. The timing was all screwed up, and everytime I turned around it was more money. My smith thought a new barrel would fix it. There went more money and the gun still didn't work %100. It made me want to go to revolvers exclusively!

[35remington]

Please don't misquote me yet another time. You've done so twice in your last post.

"But then you say they all don't work ......."

Never said that. I said they are less likely to work.

"You cannot point the finger at the short 1911's and say they simply do not function......."

Never said that. I said they are less likely to work. I can say that, and I did say that. "Cannot" doesn't enter into it, because I can say they are less likely to work reliably. Statistical probability is on my side.

Let me repeat. Once again.

If it's functioning, it's functioning. But a short 1911 is more likely to have problems that prevent the "take it for granted" levels of reliabiity that many believe is more typical of the 1911 platform.....because it reduces the operating window that allows reliable function to a greater degree than a full size. Problems are more likely, not guaranteed.

"and all I have to do is look and see the difference between a full sized 1911 and my officers and I will see why."

I see you still haven't done it. Please do so.

The physical characteristics that allow more frequent jamming are there, out in front of us, for everyone to see.

All I ask is that you make a simple observation of slide travel. How far does the breechface go past the magazine well? Less than a full size 1911?

Yep.

Quite a bit less?

Yep.

That's a big, big problem.

One more time........I didn't say a shortie couldn't function. Just that it is a lot more likely to misfunction. That's all. The number of people I've encountered that had trouble with them, combined with my own experiences, combined with the simple physics and time constraints associated with a short 1911, make this a greater statistical probability.

No more, no less.

We have several posters here admitting they have problematic short 1911's that have given them, and are currently giving them, issues despite attempts at correction. I cannot think of anything that would help me make my point more than that. My own issues started with a Colt Officer's myself.

I will now ask that you don't misquote me again so we may talk more productively about the nuts and bolts of the reduced probability of function so we may get past this idea of what I did or didn't say. Deal with the issues of reduced time and space for functionality, please, if you want to get to the root of the issue. Trot out your 1911's and compare.

How, exactly, is the cartridge positioned in the short 1911 you own when it jams? How it jams tells you a lot about what's causing it. A picture would be helpful.

For example, live round ejection (Piedmont's short 1911 issue) is an inertial problem. Reducing slide/frame impact (no shok buffs!!) or increasing magazine retention ability is a possible way to address the problem.

I don't dispute many have good luck with shorties. But many do not. Changing how the pistol is currently configured may help. It's not that your hands are tied and there's nothing you can do to improve things. But more "tricks" have to be employed to get it to run correctly......and then you can't take for granted that things will stay that way. Spring fatigue and heavier loads than what you have been using previously (+P, which is often used to get back velocity lost to the short barrel, for instance) can put you back to square one.

[Changeling]

Actually I have found this discussion very enlightening, though I know little to nothing about .45 pistols types/manufactures/problems I now have knowledge in some respects, and knowledge is always good.:smile:

It would have been nice if a few guys had stayed closer to the question but I think I learned somethings that I never even new there was a question for. Thanks, but if you guys want to go off on a tangent again, try to keep it around .45's with 5" barrels, thanks.

[wildcatter]

Not saying a shortie 1911 can't be reliable....only that it takes getting more things right to get it that way and keep it that way. There's less redundancy built in, and more things that just barely work. When a spring takes a set, or load power increased, a parameter that was barely adequate before will be the cause of much trouble in more instances than with a full size gun that has more leeway to work when a factor or two isn't optimum.

Given statistical probabilities, and the possible combinations of parts and magazine and ammo and the various widgets that do as much to hurt reliability as to help it, the odds of a puking 1911 increase the shorter you go.

The unholy alliance of several negative factors combining in one gun....say, heavy loads, improper springs, and poor magazines, can make a shortie utterly frustrating to deal with in comparision to a larger 1911. For instance, the unknowing might combine a McCormick Shooting Star magazine, a heavier than standard recoil spring, and heavy loads in a shortie.......and the odds for a malfunction just went way, way up.

Just the odds working against you. It happens, and a 1911 can be a very problematic thing if too short.

Peruse the various manufacturer specific 1911 sites sometime. Complaints with shorties are the most commonly found.

I think you answered your own complaint, any gun from a single action to a full auto has to be made right, once it is it will run anything! PERIOD! So why buy a cheap gun to protect your life with. I agree 1000 bucks will buy plenty, but if I'm gonna spend 1000 bucks I'll add 5 or 6 hundred to it and have a Les Baer, then when I sell it I will get all my money back. But let me tell you as a rule you get what you pay for, and why my Baer will run 1" groups 100% reliable with 200 grain cast swc and 4.2 grn. of 231, or 230 grain Federal Hydra Shocks! That much I am sure of. But if any gun regaurdless of barrel lenght is not made 100% correct it aint gonna run 100%. and if it is 100% correct, any of them will run 100% thats a fact!:wink:

[6bg6ga]

quote:
I think you answered your own complaint, any gun from a single action to a full auto has to be made right, once it is it will run anything! PERIOD! So why buy a cheap gun to protect your life with. I think you answered your own complaint, any gun from a single action to a full auto has to be made right, once it is it will run anything! PERIOD! So why buy a cheap gun to protect your life with. I agree 1000 bucks will buy plenty, but if I'm gonna spend 1000 bucks I'll add 5 or 6 hundred to it and have a Les Baer, then when I sell it I will get all my money back. any gun from a single action to a full auto has to be made right, once it is it will run anything! PERIOD!

Thats what I think also but then again I was wrong I believe. Now that's a personal opinion there so that I don't misquote anyone.LOL

Having owned a number of all sizes of 1911's I do share that opinion. Shock buffs I believe have been brought up and I assume their a no no to some. (Trying hard not to misquote here LOL) Have used them from the day they were put on the market. Guns with them that I own still function with all loads. Again pointing out that they are the guns that I own and someone else may not necessarily have the same experiences.

Quote:
I agree 1000 bucks will buy plenty, but if I'm gonna spend 1000 bucks I'll add 5 or 6 hundred to it and have a Les Baer, then when I sell it I will get all my money back.

Well, I would like to point out this fact that I have experienced but then again some here well they could sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo and have a profit. My experience is that its just like dealing with an automobile dealer. Once you walk out the door its worth less than what it was purchased for. So you may end up being able to recoup your investment but its likely you will end up with less money than what you paid for the gun.
************************************************** ***************
Getting back to my situation if anyone is interested.....
Disassembled the gun and cleaned it to new condition and found that the job of polishing the ramp on my gun was done incorrectly by the gun smith as the ramp was angled to the far right. The result was the round would try to feed to the far right and not chamber correctly. After a lot of tedious grinding and polishing the ramp angle/feed angle is correct.

The gun now feeds any round. I have fed it a mixed diet of round nose,semi, hard ball and it shoots them out without feeding (stovepipe problems). Also have fed it a mixture of target to heavy +P loads and it functions.

Now, a disclaimer here.... not saying that ALL 1911 shorty problems are the same as mine was. Just going to point out here again my PERSONAL OPINION that any gun should come from the factory in working condition. Note* Have had problems with the full sized Colt 1911's with stovepipe problems also. Another opinion here... once a gun has been made to work correctly it can and will continue to function unless drastic changes in loads, springs, magazines have come into play.

Another thing to consider with ANY automatic..... Do not have a magazine full/loaded and keep that magazine loaded for a number of years. Some have done this practice including myself. It changes the spring tension after time.

[BD]

35remington is correct in saying that the shorter a 1911, the more likely it is to have problems.

I will say that any model of 1911 that is put exactly to spec will run with the ammunition and magazines intended for it. However, these days a lot of new 1911s come from the factory slightly out of spec in one or more dimensions. Stack a couple of those tolerances in the same direction out of spec and you can experience issues. the shorter the slide travel, the less out of spec some dimensions need to be to cause trouble.

3" 1911s also have some basic limitations that are commonly ignored:

1. Full power round nose ogival bullets are the design spec here. Not wadcutters or SWCs. These are defensive guns intended for RNHPs like the Gold Dot, Ranger or Hydroshock. If your 3" 1911 won't run these, that's an issue. No one should care if they won't run powder puff wadcutters. Mine will run SWCs just fine, but it wouldn't break my heart if it didn't. The slide needs to come back snappy to run reliably. My 3" gun runs Ranger Rt +P just fine, and full house BD acps just fine as well. That's what matters to me.

2. No Shock buffs, there's just not room. No way, no how.

3. Kept clean and fresh springs. The "slight drag" that lets you know your 5" gun needs cleaning after 700 - 800 rounds, or a year in the safe, will stop your 3" gun, and the springs are good for several hundred rounds, not several thousand. Again the slide needs to come back snappy, and come front just as snappy. This is a defensive gun, not the pistol to buy for your range gun running lite "practice" loads.

4. Use good mags, designed for the short grip if you have one. And keep fresh mag springs in them. I ran my 3" 1911 in a fair number of action pistol matches and I did eventually break off the ejector by seating 10 rounders. Well worn mags with beat springs will lead to bolt over cartridge jams more quickly in a 3" gun than in a 5" gun.

Follow these few guidelines and any 3" 1911 that's within spec will run just fine.

BD

[35remington]

We hope any 3" within spec will run fine. However, given less than complete information about what the owner is running his gun with in terms of springs, magazines, and other things, it's harder to guarantee.

I'm not trying to contradict BD here as he gives very good advice in the previous post. I am noting that there's the potential to make a lot of wrong choices given the wide variety of makers for various 1911 parts and accessories, especially given how critical some of those choices are in short 1911's.

And when things go south a little, there's less redundancy built into the system. It's hard to predict, for instance, just when a spring will take a crap on you.

That reduced travel of the breechface past the magazine well is an absolutely unforgiving problem if it is not dealt with regularly. A very short 1911 runs this necessary margin of time to allow the next round to rise into feeding position almost to zero. I feel, personally, that once we get into the vicinity of three inch length or only a little more we have gone too far with the 45 ACP cartridge. Can't say with the other calibers because I haven't shot them in shorties.

6bg, there is no problem with leaving springs compressed for extended periods of time if they're adequate in the first place. There's instances of magazines left compressed for years that still functioned perfectly.

However, when you get into marginal areas like flush fitting magazines that are eight shotters, things may go south on you in a hurry because there's less redundancy built in. The eight shot spring is less adequate than a seven shot spring.......less spring has to operate in a larger space.

It is thought that extended compression is not what wears out a magazine, but rather repeated compression/extension cycles wherein the spring is repeatedly flexed.

Using a spring is what wears it out; leaving it compressed, not so much.

If I was trying to make a shortie run as well as possible, I would add a few things to BD's list, with the notation that his recommendation of frequent spring changes is important.

And the mention of the need for a decently strong magazine spring to prevent the slide from outrunning the magazine is no less so. A bigger 1911 has more time for the magazine spring to work correctly than a small 1911.

But just as important is not overspringing or underspringing a short pistol in the recoil spring department. The short pistol already has a default tendency to outrun the magazine, and a strong or weak spring can make things worse....the first with a tendency to accelerate quickly after the slide reaches the limit of its rearward travel, the second with a tendency of the slide to bounce hard off the vertical impact surface of the frame but also not have enough energy to strip the round and chamber it completely. Too much bounce and too little oomph.....all in the same weak spring.

Whatever it does.....accelerate forward too fast from a strong spring, or bounce too hard off the frame (steel on steel is one of the most elastic collisions there is) and then accelerate weakly with a weak spring, again, there's less room for error with a shortie, and spring set is your worst enemy in a gun that was running flawlessly just last week.

Which means a little too "snappy" isn't good, and too little "snappy" isn't good either.

Which brings me back to the "less leeway to function correctly" argument.

If you can see how it is jamming, it will tell you how to correct it. But there's no guarantee it will be corrected unless you make the right choice. And less in the way of assurance that it will stay running for long unless you constantly stay on top of things. This isn't a type of pistol that is a "shoot it and forget it" type.

Unfortunately, the last thing many want to do is maintain a fussy pistol. Maybe because they're occupied with too many other things, or maybe because they don't know much about the limitations to the pistol.

It is perhaps ironic that the more desired variants of 1911's (the short ones) for concealed carry are twitchy. They need to be more reliable to save one's life reliably. Not less.

The 4.25" Commander size is as low as I will personally go in terms of size. Those don't get shok buffs or weak magazines springs either.

[wildcatter]

quote:

Getting back to my situation if anyone is interested.....
Disassembled the gun and cleaned it to new condition and found that the job of polishing the ramp on my gun was done incorrectly by the gun smith as the ramp was angled to the far right. The result was the round would try to feed to the far right and not chamber correctly. After a lot of tedious grinding and polishing the ramp angle/feed angle is correct.


.
If it is built 100% correct, It will RUN 100% correct, regardless of barrel length! Did someone already say that??:coffeecom

[35remington]

"If it is built 100% correct, It will RUN 100% correct, regardless of barrel length! Did someone already say that??"

The question actually is this........how long will it run 100% correct? A prudent shortie pistol shooter knows the answer is not "forever with little maintenance."

In truth, all pistol sizes must be maintained, but the short 1911 user must be more aware of that fact than your average user of automatic pistols. Simply because the functionality of the pistol is teetering on a much finer balance point.

With a short pistol, the correct answer to that question must assume that its known limitations will cause a problem eventually, and sooner than with a full size, unless it is constantly and diligently maintained.

My version is "if it's built 100% correct, it will run 100 percent correct, but it's less likely to stay 100 percent with little maintainance the shorter you go."

6bg:

"After a lot of tedious grinding and polishing the ramp angle/feed angle is correct."

Messing with the frame ramp is the most common screwup that makes 1911's unreliable. Hopefully the frame ramp/barrel ramp gap is still there when the barrel is fully aftward and down in the frame bed. Hopefully the ramp angle is still correct, and nobody "blended" the frame ramp and barrel ramp together in this "customization."

There is not enough excess material for much grinding before things are out of spec. Frame ramp polish is overrated. A reasonably smooth finish is all that is needed. Correct frame ramp angle and proper frame ramp/barrel ramp gap is much more important.

I'd guess we'd agree on that point. At this stage the unreliability doesn't seem much like Colt's issue if somebody had botched the frame ramp up with ill advised customization after Colt let it out the door.

[BD]

I guess I'd say that a 3" 1911 built 100% to spec will run 100% just as long as a 5" gun, given similar materials limitations. It will need more frequent cleanings, and more frequent spring changes, but that's the price you pay to buy a barrel 2" shorter. And IMHO it's the only price you'll pay. Given the same ammo a steel frame 1911 will easily run 50,000 rounds no matter how long the barrel is. An aluminum 1911 should run 20,000 rounds no matter how long the barrel is. Extractors, ejectors, barrels, triggers, sears and mainsprings are equal in both cases. Feed ramps, frame rails, pin holes and bushing fit are not. The aluminum will give up tolerance faster than the steel in those areas, irregardless of barrel length. It's true that most 3" guns have aluminum frames, and that most 5" guns have steel frames, but that's a consequence of purpose, not barrel length. And, it's certainly no reason to run from the 3" 1911s as the whole reasoning behind the design is small and light, but still 1911.

Just because my Subaru would wear out in a month if I put the 8' fisher plow on it and put it to work daily is not a reason to avoid the Subaru. Rather it's the reason I also have the Chevy 2500HD.

I own an airweight S&W j frame. I know it will wear out in 10,000 rounds because I've been there, and done that, once already. I fully intend to go there and do it again because while it lasts I know that airweight J frame will be there for me when I need it, despite it's limitations. I also own a DW 744 that will probably run 100% for several lifetimes beyond my own. But, if it was my primary carry gun, would it "be there" for me when I really needed it?

I have to add: The resale value of a defensive handgun is meaningless to this discussion. Who cares what my decendents get for it after I'm gone?

BD

[Lloyd Smale]

seems like lots of worry about nothing. The ones i owned worked fine even with lead swcs. I shoot my 1911s a lot more then most do so if something was going to drasticaly change in one id have probably seen it. I do though religiously change my springs. Usually at 500 rounds in a 3 inch gun 1000 rounds in a 4 inch and 1500 in a 5 inch. I change all my mag springs at least once a year. I guess ill go back to the fact that I must be lucky as ive had only one pour 3 inch gun and that was a springfield gi. Even that one would run ball though. Ive had more bad 5 inch guns then anything. No doubt because ive owned more of them then any other. Seems like looking back my troubles more center on springfield guns then any barrrel lenght. The older springfields and there newer lower line guns sure dont impress me. Ive shot ppc matchs with 3 inch guns and shot a whole year with a 4 inch gun. Never had a jam or malufuntion and that includes practice time. Funny thing is i sure saw alot of 5 inch guns choking in that time. Im not a gunsmith or a engineeer or designer so ill pass on all the fancy talk. Ill just tell you honestly what ive seen in 100s of thousands of acp out of 1911s downrange in my life. bottom line is i have absoulutely no use for an unreliable 1911 and when i run into one it goes down the road and i dont hold back badmouthing it. Again just ask me what i think of springfields. Id hope any force attacking me was armed with just them. Like i said to im not expert on this. Im giving you my experience. Only 3 inch guns ive been aroud alot were that springfield a couple kimbers and an sti and the later were great guns. You might convince me though that a 3 inch gun may be a bit more finiky but the days of commanders that dont run were left behind years ago. They got that rep from home smiths making them up and not understanding things like spring rates. Ill put my commanders up against ANYONES 5 inch guns for reliability and accuracy. My favorite carry gun is a light weight kimber comander sized gun. Its a plain jane kimber nothing flashy. That gun has a round count of over 50k and NEVER has malfuntioned other then something caused by a bad reload. All thats ever been done is springs replaced, now i dont know what you consider reliable but in my book that qualifiys.

[Lloyd Smale]

i guess ill get out of this post now as some seem to take it personaly. Ill close with this. Ive owned many 1911s through the years. Some excellent some pour. I dont try to diagnose the bad ones to much. If they didnt run they went down the road. Ive personaly not seen much differnce in reliability between a good 3 or 4 inch gun then i have with a 5 inch gun. Buy something cheap and all bets are off no matter what the barrel lenght is. I know some guys claim to have good luck with some of them but i have to wonder how much there actually shot. 35 rem did make one good point. A good gun is a gun that runs with 50k on it not one that runs good with 500 rounds though it. thats not even a good days shoot. A good 1911 runs a 100 percent even if its been shot a 1000 times without cleaning. Not one that is cleaned and oiled after ever 50 shots. Accuracy is great but unless its a gun that is going to be shot in competition it takes a big back seat to reliability. A handgun that shoots 2-3 inch groups is plenty for any self defense work. Like i said ill back out of here. Im getting nervous that my small 1911s might get wind of the fact there not suppose to be running like they do.

[BD]

"My favorite carry gun is a light weight kimber comander sized gun. Its a plain jane kimber nothing flashy. That gun has a round count of over 50k and NEVER has malfuntioned other then something caused by a bad reload. All thats ever been done is springs replaced, now i dont know what you consider reliable but in my book that qualifiys."

I'm with Lloyd on this. Although I did bobtail mine.

BD
__________________

[35remington]

At some point, the devil will have his due. Giving one's sidearm more of a chance to work properly is simply common sense.

Cutting things to the razor's edge of functionality is not appealing to me. Nuff said.