336A 30/30 ballard barrel

[Bardo]

Well about a year ago i saw a pretty clean 336A in 30/30 for $180 at a local pawn shop so i snagged it. I knew it was old because in had no micro groove barrel (Serial number starts with a "E" so i think it is a 1948). It also had the 24" barrel and i like that. Any way i have never casted for a rifle. i mainly cast for 45 ACP 357 mag and 41 mag. so what would be a good bullet for this gun? what lube? what alloy? any information would be great. i did a search for "336" but most everything talks about micro groove. by the way this is my first post. this is a great site.

[woody1]

Wow, you got a nice rifle at a good price. Should be a dandy boolit shooter too.
Welcome to the site. Search instead for 30-30 or 30/30 and I'll bet you'll find lots. If not come on back and ask. Regards, Woody

Search for 30/30 yields 45 pages. Your question at the top. HTH

[Bardo]

thanks. i will try that

[zippidydoodah]

I load the lee 170 grain gas check bullet over 10 grains of unique. It is a good 50 yard plinking round with no leading in my winchester 94. I cast wheel weights and drop them in water hardness unknown . I size to.308 and use a black rcbs lube. Also have tumble lubed with liquid alox with good results. Good luck.

[lonewelder]

If you want to plink the above load and boolit is very good.I went to a ranch dog pb boolit with 8gr uni for a fun load.For full power loads cr lube is good.I'm working with lo tac from bullshop right now,both are members and good folks.Do a search and you will find more info than you want.30-30 is goood for cast

[JIMinPHX]

A Marlin .30-30 is a great gun to cast for. Cast gives me better accuracy than factory ammo out of those old lever guns. I load the el-cheapo gas checked Lee 150-grain rnfp over stiff charges of Reloader 7 for a hunting load that duplicates factory performance & I load the same boolit down to around 1,300fps with Unique for a plinker.

Most people seem to prefer the 170-grain flat points in that cartridge. You have a few different mold manufacturers to choose from in either 150 or 170 grain. Lee is the least expensive, but works fine for me. The more expensive molds are worth what they go for, but they are just out of my budget range. You can load different boolit weights, but 150 & 170 are by far the most popular for the .30-30.

I will make the grand assumption that you do know that in guns with tubular magazines, like that one, you need to stay with flat point or soft point boolits for safety reasons.

For $180, you got a great deal.

Congratulations on that purchase & welcome aboard.

[Bardo]

Well I just ordered a lyman 311041 mold, some gas checks and a lyman m die (but it won't be here for a week). I'm planning on sizing them at .311. I got most the powders that "Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook" 3rd and 4th edition list (well at least the heaver loads). But I have some Leverevolution powder I want to try. I was going to cast with WW & 2% tin- Do I need to heat treat these? I was planning on it. for lube I have some CR, Felix and some lithi-bee. I was going to use the Felix it is a little softer then the CR (and I like it for heavy 41 mag and 357 mag). Let me know if I'm headed down the wrong road- like I said I have never cast for a rifle. Also how heavy of a roll crimp do i need to do?

[gerrycan]

Hi, welcome.
Don,t put too much crimp on or it will swage down your boolit from 310-ish to maybe 305 ! You need just enough crimp so the projectiles in the mag don,t move back into case. This ruins accuracy. Regards, Gerry

[PB Guy]

I use the Lee 160 grn boolit tumble lubed with liquid alox. They are loaded over 6.5grns of Unique or 7.5 of TrailBoss for my Win. 94. I seat the boolit @ .020 deeper than suggested in the load data. Results are groups below .75'' at 50 yds.
Hope this is helpful, welcome to the forum. Dick R

[Will]

I use the 311291 and 18gr 2400 for a full power load. The 311041 or the lee 309170rfp can use the same load. You need to work up to this since it is a max load.

[Throwback]

Sizing .311 is a good place to start. No need to heat treat. Start with slower loads and see how you do. Unique always works well on the first try with the .30-30. 2400 and Accurate 9 are good powders too although data for the latter is less easy to come by. Any old alloy will work with these loads.

28 grains of H4895 is good for the high velocity end. You may find your alloy too brittle at 1900 fps-plus. Accuracy will be spotty if this is the case. Adding lead would be the easiest cure. Many members use a 50-50 WW to pure lead mix and you can use a little tin to improve castability if you need to. This mix will tend to lead a little bit so you would have to clean the bore in a few shots. This is of no concern in a hunting load.

[Bardo]

Throwback, I really like the idea of the H4895 because it is a stick powder. The leverevolution is a ball powder- never had good luck with that when the temperature changes. (I live in the high desert temperature ranges from -10 to 110 degrees) Also are they heat treating that 50/50 alloy? seem very soft for that speed and pressure. must be able to do that with more bearing surface. I have a lead pot set up for just 66/33/1 - ww/lead/tin that I only use for my 45's- I think I'll try some of that alloy. Also is the H4895 a single base powder?

[Char-Gar]

Bardo.. You have a great rifle. There is no need to heat treat alloy. Air cooled wheel weight is just fine. If you want something a little harder try Lyman No. 2

Your choice of lubes sounds fine.

I like 4895 or 3031 for full snort loads.

Your choice of bullet is excellent.

I don't know where this stuff about swaging down the bullet with the crimp comes from. The Lee factory crimp die will do this, but a roll crimp will not. Just turn the case mouth into the groove until the outside edge is even with the outside of the front driving band of the bullet. That way the bullet will hit the case mouth and won't be shoved down into the case.

30-30 leverguns and cast bullets are a natural combination. Enjoy!

[higgins]

I shoot a 336RC with a Ballard-rifled barrel. Mine slugged .309, so even if yours is about .309 you will be OK sizing to .311. I've only shot the Lyman 311291 because that's the mold a friend loaned me and I cast enough to last me a while. My 311291s drop at about .310, so I have shot them unsized with Lee liquid alox lube and a gas check seated. You were wise to get an M-die; makes working with cast much easier. I only crimp enough to barely turn the case mouth into the crimping groove. There's no need for more since you'll have good neck tension with a .311 bullet, even if it is lubed lead. I have loaded plinkers at 1100-1150fps with Green Dot because that's what I had on hand. If you have shotgun powders on hand try them for the light loads. I haven't tried full-power loads with cast, so can't comment on them.

[Marlin Junky]

RCBS 30-180-FN. BAC if you want to shoot them over 2000 fps, 50/50 if you don't. Fill cases with medium burning powder for full power loads. If your gun has a long throat (Marlin was tinkering with throat length during the late 40's), LBT's 180 will be your best bet for tack driving accuracy and powder (near .300 Savage powder).

MJ

[geargnasher]

Bardo.. You have a great rifle. There is no need to heat treat alloy. Air cooled wheel weight is just fine. If you want something a little harder try Lyman No. 2

Your choice of lubes sounds fine.

I like 4895 or 3031 for full snort loads.

Your choice of bullet is excellent.

I don't know where this stuff about swaging down the bullet with the crimp comes from. The Lee factory crimp die will do this, but a roll crimp will not. Just turn the case mouth into the groove until the outside edge is even with the outside of the front driving band of the bullet. That way the bullet will hit the case mouth and won't be shoved down into the case.

30-30 leverguns and cast bullets are a natural combination. Enjoy!

+1 Chargar.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

Big difference between 3031 and 4895. Top power with 190-200 grain boolits is obtained with H380. If you want to go heavier, use H414 or W760 up to about 36 grains (approach slowly and watch for excessive pressure during hot weather).

Here's a top load in my 336A (my friends call it the 30-30 Magnum):

• LBT 312-180 @ 179 grains ready to fly (approx. .3115" diameter) cast of WW metal with enough soft lead added to yield an air cooled hardness of BHN 10-11; and, HT'd at 475F for one hour before quenching.

• Two weeks after quenching, lube with BAC and load into WW cases with 35.5 grains of DP-74 and Fed 210 primers; COL: 2.60" (I moved the cartridge stop back a hair).

This load delivers 2375-2400 fps at 15' (summer/early fall) and consistently shoots five rounds into less than 1.5 MOA from my aperture sighted 336A. Your mileage will vary unless you've got the "magnum" chamber; HOWEVER, DP-74 is a lot like AA2520 which should do very well with boolits in this weight range (170 to 180 grains).

MJ

[Bardo]

MJ< I'm not familiar with DP-74 where would I get some? what kind of powder is it? stick or ball?

[Marlin Junky]

MJ< I'm not familiar with DP-74 where would I get some? what kind of powder is it? stick or ball?

It's one of AA's no longer available Data powders... substitute canister AA2520 for which there is plenty of reloading data. There is plenty of room in WW 30-30 brass for 35 grains of 2520 but work up carefully when using 180 grain boolits because the throat of my 336A is about 1/4" long.

I've also got an old Ballard 336A in 30-30 (with a more standard throat) that loves RCBS 30-180-FN and 33-34 grains of H380. Velocity with this near 200 grain boolit is around 2100 fps and accuracy is superb.

MJ

[XWrench3]

any flat nose cast boolit should work fine. you may end up sizing down to .309 in stead of useing them as cast. you really should still slug the bore though. that is the best way to get the right fit, and avoid leaving a bunch of lead in that barrel.

[Marlin Junky]

any flat nose cast boolit should work fine...

That may or may not be the case depending on your velocity requirements. Your Marlin is blessed with nice deep grooves and is therefore fairly forgiving with respect to bullet alloy; however, its 1:10" twist will produce the best accuracy with boolits possessing high bearing to overall length ratios. Unfortunately, I can't recommend any newly manufactured Lyman molds because they'll probably strain to drop .310" boolits, which you're gonna need to produce anything better than plinking type accuracy. The only possible exception would be a new Lyman mold designed for the .303 British which probably wouldn't work in your rifle because of COL constraints. Lyman 311041, 311291, etc. cut in the good ol' days, or clones thereof cut by folks who post here will be fine; i.e., get a mold that drops .311+" (your rifle is probably over .309" in the grooves and just about .3000" across the lands; i.e., approx. .005" tall rifling).

MJ

P.S. Just a note... you have purchased one of the absolutely easiest rifles to obtain fine accuracy from cast boolits. If all barrels today are made the way Marlin made barrels in the early days (first half of the 20th Century), half the clamoring on this website would be nonexistent.

[Bardo]

MJ, I'm going to slug my barrel right now. I also purchased a Lyman 311041 from midway should be here next week. if it doesn't cast .311 + couldn't I hone it out with some valve lapping compound?

[Bardo]

MJ, you were right just over .309 and the lands measured .300 and .299. You have mentioned some powders but they have all been ball powder. I haven't had the best luck with them due to temperature change. But most my experience with ball powder have been in small and fast rounds like 204 or 223. I was thinking H4895 or is there a better stick powder?

[Bardo]

Also when I was pushing the lead ball down the barrel from the muzzle it was even pressure until the last 1.5" to 2" and then it opened up. it that a problem?

[Marlin Junky]

MJ, I'm going to slug my barrel right now. I also purchased a Lyman 311041 from midway should be here next week. if it doesn't cast .311 + couldn't I hone it out with some valve lapping compound?

First of all when you slug it, realize that it's probably .0005" greater in groove diameter near the chamber than at the muzzle. My 336A's pretty much measure .3095" at the muzzle and .3100" just forward the throat. Throat diameter is on the order of .3105-3110"... some go .3115". My "30-30 magnum" ('49 vintage) is one example that goes .311+" at the throat and the reason I use a .312" die for my LBT 312-180's which are cast from a mold tailored to this rifle.

You have a couple avenues to take here:

• Send your new 311041 back to Midway in exchange for an RCBS 30-180-FN without even touching it or save it for another rifle.

• Cast with it and see what you get... perhaps you'll get lucky, more likely, it'll cast somewhere around .309". If it does in fact cast .309+, shim the mold with aluminum tape to get another .001"-.0015" diameter. The mold will cast out of round with the tape in place if the cavities originally cast round (doubtful); however, sometimes molds cast a bit narrower 90° from the seams, in which case you'll have a mold that produces "rounder" boolits and "breaths" better than current Lyman venting standards allow.

If a newly manufactured RCBS 30-180-FN doesn't cast .311", RCBS is way more likely to replace the mold with one that does. I just sent a "skinny" 35-200-FN (that I probably bought from Midway) to the factory and they sent me one that casts .360" all the way around... quickly. It's almost as though they had my "oversized" mold on the shelf just waiting to be claimed.

RCBS mold blocks are generally easier to cast with and are less prone to rusting (different alloy than Lyman and similar to the more expensive SAECO). They do weigh more than Lyman molds but if that becomes an issue, go with the much cheaper Lee molds (or better yet, look up one of our custom mold gurus). I actually have a Lee mold for my '06 (typical .30 cal. bore/groove diameters) that shoots very well. It's no "30-30 magnum" :-D but it'll shoot < 1MOA at 1850 fps.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Also when I was pushing the lead ball down the barrel from the muzzle it was even pressure until the last 1.5" to 2" and then it opened up. it that a problem?

You need to make sure your barrel is free from all fouling and squeaky clean before attempting to obtain dimensions. Start the soft lubed plug from the chamber and drive it out the muzzle. This will obtain the minimum groove diameter. As a second step and after cleaning again (yeah, this takes work to get it right), just drive the lubed plug into the throat and back it out from the muzzle with your 1/4" solid brass rod. Make sure you're using a big, heavy hammer and protect your stock with a sheet of rubber or something in case your aim is not so great.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

MJ, you were right just over .309 and the lands measured .300 and .299. You have mentioned some powders but they have all been ball powder. I haven't had the best luck with them due to temperature change. But most my experience with ball powder have been in small and fast rounds like 204 or 223. I was thinking H4895 or is there a better stick powder?

4895 is good but I prefer a full case of H380 for the heavy weights. All ball powders are not created equal... some are frustrating, some are not. H380 is good stuff and meters better than 4895. I think your preference may vary based on where you live. I can probably get more velocity with H380 than with 4895 while using a softer alloy. However, I've never checked my velocity in the fall/winter in for example, Northern WY.

MJ

[Centaur 1]

I'm using the Ranch Dog TLC311-165-RF sized to .310 and dip lubed with LLA in my 336SS. I started with IMR4895 and I think it's too slow from what others tell me. I get some lead deposits on the outside of the case neck. Accuracy is "usable", but the rifle is capable much better. I just bought some Reloader 7 to try next, hopefully it'll work better.

[Marlin Junky]

I'm using the Ranch Dog TLC311-165-RF sized to .310 and dip lubed with LLA in my 336SS. I started with IMR4895 and I think it's too slow from what others tell me. I get some lead deposits on the outside of the case neck. Accuracy is "usable", but the rifle is capable much better. I just bought some Reloader 7 to try next, hopefully it'll work better.

Now you're talking about a whole 'nuther animal (336SS). Watch your loading technique and make sure your M-die is adjusted properly. You might be shaving lead while loading or checking the boolits. Try the boolit unsized. Sometimes lead on the case neck maybe a result of an oversized boolit, sometimes it's a result of something else. If you're shaving alloy when gas checking, make a tool that flares the check slightly before applying. Check your boolits for roundness too.

MJ

[Bardo]

MJ what bullet mold would you use the lyman or the rcbs? (being that you have the same rifle from the same era- i do realize my rifle isn't your rifle and what works in yours might not work in mine. I would like to use the lyman because its on it way and alot of people on here seem to think highly of it. But if the RCBS will do better its better to do things right the first time. The rcbs is heavier (i like heavier- if it like my other RCBS it will probably drop in the high 180's) and has one more lube groove (being a 24" barrel that may be nice)

[Marlin Junky]

MJ what bullet mold would you use the lyman or the rcbs? (being that you have the same rifle from the same era- i do realize my rifle isn't your rifle and what works in yours might not work in mine. I would like to use the lyman because its on it way and alot of people on here seem to think highly of it. But if the RCBS will do better its better to do things right the first time. The rcbs is heavier (i like heavier- if it like my other RCBS it will probably drop in the high 180's) and has one more lube groove (being a 24" barrel that may be nice)

Perhaps you should review my earlier posts. My 30-180-FN's have produced boolits all the way to 200 grains ready to fly weight.

MJ

[uscra112]

Somebody mentioned AA#9 for lighter loads, and I'll second that. Been working with it for a Schuetzen rifle, and it gives me much better standard deviations across the Chrony that anything else in than quickness range. (I'm loading 25:1 alloy, for about 1400 fps, plain base boolit to comply with the ASSRA rules.) If you haven't bought your powder yet, try it.

[Marlin Junky]

Somebody mentioned AA#9 for lighter loads, and I'll second that. Been working with it for a Schuetzen rifle, and it gives me much better standard deviations across the Chrony that anything else in than quickness range. (I'm loading 25:1 alloy, for about 1400 fps, plain base boolit to comply with the ASSRA rules.) If you haven't bought your powder yet, try it.

16 grains of #9 was my chicken, pig, turkey powder with RCBS 30-180-FN. 33 grains of H-380 behind the same boolit sent the rams to the ground with even foot hits.

MJ

[Bardo]

Ok it measures .310 at the chamber. But when I push one through the barrel from the chamber side it measures .309 and the last 12" - 15" I could push the brass rod with my hand. So I pushed one in about a 1.5" on the muzzle and it measured .3905. Is this a problem? I could probably fire lap the barrel but I think I should wait and see how it shoots.

[Marlin Junky]

Ok it measures .310 at the chamber. But when I push one through the barrel from the chamber side it measures .309 and the last 12" - 15" I could push the brass rod with my hand. So I pushed one in about a 1.5" on the muzzle and it measured .3905. Is this a problem? I could probably fire lap the barrel but I think I should wait and see how it shoots.

There certainly could be a rough spot somewhere. A lot can happen to a gun in 50+ years. You never said that you scrubbed it clean. After the barrel is clean and shinny, run a tight patch through it to see how it feels. If there is a rough spot and it does actually impair accuracy, then you can firelap with some Clover 320 (not just any old 320 grit!). Your main concern after getting all the copper fouling and other crud out will be producing .311" boolits to feed it, especially from your new Lyman mold. Before you use abrasives in that barrel, try some copper solvent.

MJ

[Bardo]

I scrubbed it really good with some hoppes elite and the some CR-10 until patches were white. (this I believe is a pretty aggressive copper solvent) I saturated a patch with some oil before driving the plug through it and I didn't notice a rough spot. I also looked at the bore with a bore light and it looked shinny. I still will hold off on fire lapping until l try some bullets. I can take metal away just can't add the metal back.

Bardo

[stana]

Just shoot it, I'll bet almost every load you try will be reasonably good. I have a 1949 336 RC and I haven't yet found a reasonable load that it didn't like. Fast powders with Boolits w/o gas checks and slower powders with gas checks. Current favorite load is RCBS 30-150 FN. and 30.5 grns surplus 4895. (I have a 30-30 handy rifle that thinks that load is too hot, so start lower)

Stan (mine was a pawn shop junker, $90 about 15 yrs ago)

[Rockydog]

I've got a Win. 94 (1974 vintage) I load 30 gr. of IMR4895 under either a 311041 or a 311291 and both are accurate and don't lead. Sized to .311. I realize we are talking about the Marlin here but I do agree with your choice of powder. RD

[ricksplace]

I have the same gun. Model 336RC with four groove ballard rifling. I shoot lyman 311466 with 10.5 Unique, and RCBS 180 fngc with 28 gr of Nobel 104 (like a slightly faster 4350). The RCBS weighs about 195 gr fully dressed and chronos about 1750 fps. Both are sized to .309 and are cast of air cooled wheel weights lubed with 50/50 and hornady checks. I get about 1.5-2 moa with redfield iron sights (globe front and micrometer rear). A little Eds Red and a patch and the bore is clean as a whistle. Never any leading. I call it my boring rifle cuz it always performs the same way every time I take it out and always hits what I aim at. You have a real gem there. Enjoy it.

[Bardo]

Well went and shoot my first lead bullets out of the rifle today. It was a lyman 311041 sized to .311 out of WW 1% tin heat treated at 450 degrees - it weighed 184 gr. lubed and checked. Felix lube. I shot 33.0 gr. of leverevolution. I was using a peep sight. No leading in the total of 15 rounds I shot. I see this having some potential.

This is a 5 shot group at 25 yards.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Nobody mentioned XLR 5744, which works very well with 311041 and is very versitile in many other cartridges. I have a Lachmiller clone and it shoots great in a MG barrel. also no leading with the gas check. Load data in Lyman #49

I use 5744 in cast loads for.308 and .30-06, as well as .45-70 Many uses for that one if you don't want a library of powder cansiters laying around.

Randy

[stana]

Good work, good rifle and good load.

[Marlin Junky]

Well went and shoot my first lead bullets out of the rifle today. It was a lyman 311041 sized to .311 out of WW 1% tin heat treated at 450 degrees - it weighed 184 gr. lubed and checked. Felix lube. I shot 33.0 gr. of leverevolution. I was using a peep sight. No leading in the total of 15 rounds I shot. I see this having some potential.

This is a 5 shot group at 25 yards.

There ya go... I'm glad you've been encouraged!

MJ

[Bardo]

What am I doing wrong? at 25 yards I seem to always put 3 in the same hole and then have some flyers- any where from a .5" to an 1" away. But when I shoot a jacketed 160 gr ftx with some Varget I shoot a .25" 5 shot group. I have tried H4895, Varget and Leverevolution. I don't think it is the powder. I think I am doing something inconsistent with the bullet. I am using a lyman 311041 sized to .311 out of WW 1% tin heat treated at 450 degrees - it weighs 184 gr. lubed and checked. Felix lube. Is my bullet to hard? I figured for full power loads that wasn't to hard. Any ideas would be great.

[stana]

Still sounds like a good load to me, but check out www.castbullet.com "optimum accuracy with cast bullets" "under shooting"...(if it was me I'd put twenty of those loads in my pocket and go walk'n and shoot'n in the hills.)