Restoring a barrel with PP

[windrider919]

I have a .223 bolt action varmint rifle [simi-bull barrel, match trigger, custom stock] that has seen lots of use. I looked through my loading records dating back to 1982 and added up the loads/re-loads specifically listed for this gun (others were shot but I just counted ones that mentioned they were for this rifle exclusively} and came to a total of 7100 rounds.

Recently, the last couple of times i shot it using it's favorite load, it just grouped larger than it used to.

Now I ALWAYS clean properly with a bore guide so there is no rod wear, muzzle or chamber. Use nylon brushes, instead of bronze ones. Use quality cleaning and copper removal solutions/solvent (Hoppes#9 or 7.62Sweets).

I do occasionally use JB Bore Paste, about every 500 rounds because it just takes that last little bit that gets left with conventional cleaning out. Recently, the last couple of years I have been using a great cleaner, almost a fantastic cleaner called Gunslick Pro Foaming Bore Cleaner. WOW! It really works 'one step' like it claims.

But even with a taken care of n clean bore, the old accuracy was just not there.

Then an IDEA came to me. We all have noticed how shooting PP seems to polish a bore. So could I 'condition/restore' the bore on the .223 by shooting PP bullets?

I had made a mould for casting .216 slugs for paper patching a while back...there's a thread for that...:D So I dug the mould back out, heated up my pot and cast some, then wrapped them (twisted tails by the way, 22 is just too hard to fold) and prepared to load them.

Now they weigh 65 grains and dry the diameter is .224. So I decided to load them in fired cases, not re-sized, to keep from having problems tearing the patches. Just used one of the old Lee hand loaders to knock out the primer. It was actually a slight snug fit into the [chamfered] case mouth that took a gentile twist insert them, then they stayed.

I used a load of 18gr of Reloader #7 to charge them.

I only loaded fifty, since I should be able to see if it was having any effect with that many, I hope.

Went to the shooting range with the clean rifle and set up on the 50yd range because I was not shooting for accuracy, but instead was just 'conditioning' the barrel.

My groups prior to this had opened up to 1 3/4" @ 100yds when they used to always be less than 3/4 and usually I could count on 1/2" groups. I did not even mount a target, just shot at the berm. Shot, let the rifle cool, ran a patch of Sweets, then a dry patch and shot again.

The bore looked good prior to this except for some erosion right at the throat 'shadowed' the start of the lands. Of course, I checked often to see if it was having any effect but truthfully, with the naked eye, I did not notice any significant change...except the rifling seemed 'sharper/crisper' at the bore/land corners. Cleaner perhaps? Even though I started with a very clean bore.


So I decided to shoot some convention loads to see if any change had occured yet. Using my old 'premium' load I shot on some old targets someone had left up. Now this is a full power load using the max charge of H335 and a 50 grain bullet.

Result were very good. Using five shot groups, ten groups shot, not one group was bigger than one inch and several were....alllllllllmost .650!!!

Sorry, no pictures, I just didn't bring one out and since I was using old shot up target, you would have only been confused as where MY shots/groups were if I'd bothered to bring it home.

Conclusion: I think the bore polishing done by the PP did do some good in recovering some accuracy from this old barrel. Not scientific but I would like to hear from any of you if you have gotten better groups shooting jacketed bullets AFTER shooting PP than before.

[6.5 mike]

I hav'nt tried shooting jacketed after pp'ed, but I'm useing pp'ed to polish the bores on a couple old 99 savages with very good results. Would be interesting to see if your groups stay this tight, & if not, if firing some more pp'ed bring them back. You may be on to a way to re-polish the throat rather then having to ream it. Will be looking for more info as you go along.

[MBTcustom]

A friend of mine shoots 1000 yard matches all the time. He has a custom built remington700 .308, and he shoots jacketed bullets at fast speeds. He mentioned to me that he noticed his groups started to open up after around 3500 rounds. He said at that point he just rebarreled the rifle and started over. I don't know if this helps but I do think that maybe the bore becomes work-hardened or the rifling gets the sharp edges polished off and it becomes less effective. Bear in mind that this is conventional jacketed bullet wisdom. The rules may be different for cast boolits but most folks never get that many boolits down the barrel of their rifle. I hate to use the words "shot out" because they are thrown around far too often but I think that your rifle-barrel's best years may very well be behind you. I think if you love that rifle so much, and you cant get its accuracy to come back, you would be very pleased with having a good gunsmith re-barrel it for you as a last resort. Modern barrels are very good quality, and it is not hard to get one that delivers superb accuracy for not much money. Still I think that you are wise to see if PP boolits might dress the bore back into shape.

[windrider919]

Shot-out is an abused term. I have an M1 with over 10k rounds through it and it STILL is a match weapon. That why I mentioned so much about cleaning....most rifles that lose accuracy just need a extensive cleaning. But the most common cause a rifle loses accuracy in a few thousand round is IMPROPER cleaning where the cleaning rod damages either the throat or the muzzle. Then there is gas cutting/errosion in the chamber throat for a variety of reasons - usually overbore cartridges (ex: 220 Swift) and/or bad power choice like many 22-250 owners which eroded the throat right out.

I have repaired multiple rifles simply by back-boring the muzzle to get rid of the first .500 of the rifling. In effect, it creates a recessed, re-crowned muzzle and a lot of the accuracy came back. On the chamber end, I have cut off the threads, re-threaded and re-chambered the barrel and gotten like new accuracy with the 'old' barrel.

Since I have several blanks, yes, I could re-barrel but I think there is a lot of life left in the one I have mounted.

But if the polishing action of shooting PP can restore an appreciable fraction of the old accuracy, I'm not ready to put the old horse out to pasture just yet.

The main point of my thread was that I did not experience a gradual drop off in accuracy like one would get with regular wear but instead lost the accuracy in just 100 rounds, over two shooting sessions. The slight 'frosting' in the throat had not caused a problem til now so I am hesitant to assign blame to it just yet.....

[MBTcustom]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. Its just that changing a barrel is a relatively easy thing to do on a rifle like what you have described. Especially if you are set up to do it, and it sounds like you are. I place value on an action, not a barrel. You say that the rifle used to consistently shoot sub 1/2 MOA @ 100 and it gradually opened up to shooting .75 -1.00 @100. Then you ran some PP boolits through it and you got it to shoot .650- 1.00. If I was used to a rifle that would shoot 1/2" and it started shooting an average of .825 all of a sudden, I would not be happy at all. You managed to bring your average group down from .875 to .825 by running the PP boolits through it. If your happy with that, then more power to you.
I have not used PP boolits to try to recondition a barrel. I use them to break in a new barrel and they work great for that. I am even building a rifle that I may use as a dedicated PP slinger. Well see.
I know that others here like 303guy have used PP to clean up a pitted rifle barrel and he has gotten very good results out of it. But I have never heard of somebody taking a barrel that has been cared for so carefully and used so extensively, and somehow managing to get all the accuracy to come back. I don't mean to jump on the "shot out barrel" band wagon, but the scenario you described sounded all too familiar. I am interested to hear what your findings are after you shoot another couple hundred PP boolits through that barrel. If you get back to the sub 1/2" range, then you may have saved yourself a little bit of money on a new barrel, especially if you have the shooting range in your back yard and you don't have to burn gas to get to the range like I do. I would be tempted to use auto-sol or something a little more aggressive than just straight paper, just to cut down on the amount of powder and primer it would take to get the same result. Good luck, I will keep an eye on your progress.

[windrider919]

Well, that is the interesting thing about PP. This is an experiment and like all experiments, many trials fail for few a successes. I do not expect to fully bring back 'as new' accuracy but it is simply to see if it is worthwhile.

As per using something abrasive....well, we all know that that has a small positive of smoothing then a great negative of too much wear if you miss the time to stop. But PP is NOT abrasive and there lies the benefit. There is no known point beyond which it switches from good to bad. PP barrels seem to last a LOT longer than those shooting other types of projectiles.,

And in this case, SOMETHING it is doing is good and my guess is that some build-up that regular cleaning methods does not work on or somehow the last set of rounds damaged the bores surface ( and why would that have happened?) and the PP is smoothing it (back?) down. More testing is a good thing, it is what our gun culture is all about.

P.S. - No offense was taken from previous posts, just good points from both sides based on information available/know.

[barrabruce]

Could be you bedding , gummy firing pin or a multitude of other stuff as well.

A .222 shoot for a least several years roo shooting before you even notice any change in it.

A widdle whack on the crown has paly havoc with things!!!

Iv'e touched up a couple of crowns and they shot 2x good as they were before hand.

Iv'e heard of people complain that there barrells just went dead like a dropped cell in a car battery but never experienced it!!!

interesting

[windrider919]

Could be you bedding , gummy firing pin or a multitude of other stuff as well.
.
.
Iv'e heard of people complain that there barrells just went dead like a dropped cell in a car battery but never experienced it!!!

interesting

And that's pretty much what happened - shot great 1/2" groups, next week, shot 1-1/2"!

And yes, I checked the causes you listed and found nothing obvious.

I might mention that a shooting friend was with me who had shot that rifle before and done as well as I do....did. He tried it that day and had no better groups than I did. So that eliminated shooter error on my part.

[barrabruce]

New cleaner may have worked too good!!! as if I read right .... things went tits up after you started using it.

Just thinking

Simple quick things cleaners usually means aggressive agents.
If some was left in the bore and not patched out proper and left maybe it has reacted to the steel???
I know nothing of what you have used.

The "new" non ammonia type citrus peel new wangfangled stuff the benchresters are using supposed to be bore friendly and work wonders!!!


Ohh plastic brushers are harder on the bore than brass/ bronze ones. Something to do with the nylon keeping junk embeded in it and hard to get "clean"
So I was told my a state champion....apparently..that is.
Buggered if I know how they can tell if patching out bullet fouling or bristle brush reaction ....being made of about the same stuff and all !!!!

Barra

[windrider919]

Interestingly enough, last year I had exactly that happen to a rifle I was working with.

I had bought, over 15 years ago, a 98 Mauser in 8X57 and just left it in the back of the gun closet. Now this rifle had been 'simi-sporterized' by cutting off the wood forend and had the butt-stock reshapes a little and a rubber recoil pad installed...badly. Hey, I only paid $40.00 at a garage sale and I really just bought it for the action.

So I was given 120 rounds of surplus ammo last year and decided to try the rifle.

With the original iron sights, at 100yards, well supported by sandbags...I got groups that were 2" to 3". Now consider that this is an ancient military rifle from the dawn of modern accuracy shooting. I figure that what I got was very good for the day. We just expect so much more from todays firearms. More than is really needed for hunting, etc if the fact were to be known.

So, went home with the new brass, got a set of dies and reloaded them to start a load development program. Now I was doing standard cleaning with a nylon brush, Hoppe's #9 and regular cotton patches. The barrel looked nice with no apparent pitting, actually had a smooth and shiny appearance.

Then, I made the unfortunate mistake of deciding to plug the muzzle end, fill the barrel with solvent and let it soak overnight. BAD decision...

the next morning, I pulled the plug and let the barrel contents drain into a glass bowl. First out were several tablespoons of lumpy, black crud and black solvent. It looked like carbon/graphite with the sparkly swirls you get when suspended in solvent.

Looking down the barrel..I was horrified to find little tiny pits from end to end...no more clean shiny barrel!!!!

It appeared that the carbon crud had filled/packed all the pits and had hidden the actual barrel metal!

And when I went back to the range, I got groups of 12' to 14" with the reloads.

I even got hold of 20 more rounds of the original ammo that had shot so well...

...on a 8.8X11 standard paper sheet.....only about 1/2 the shots even hit paper.

Who would have thought that DEEP CLEANING a barrel would ruin a gun?

So I pulled the barrel, rebarreled the action for a friend to .375-06 and he restocked it as his first stock n bedding job...now he's caught the bug

[akajun]

I would think you would be better served by turning the barrel back about one turn or two, rechambering, and cutting about 1/2" off the front for a re crown than trying to polish the bore with PP.

In my practice gun for Highpower, a Wilson ss 20" with 7000 through it, It has enough muzzle wear that when I slugged it the other day, I can actually feel it with the slug and rod. However it still feels tight past the throat to the muzzle and measures .224 accross the lands, same as my new Krieger. This tells me that the wear is in the throat, not the middle of the bore.

[303Guy]

Being me, I would be more interested in restoring the bore through polishing and fire-lapping. Paper patching is fun. of course there is nothing wrong with engineering the problem out too. If'n I'd have had that 8x57 I'd have done all kinds of tricks to make it shoot again. Just because it would give me pleasure! Now days when I look down a rusty old bore I see opportunity!:-P