Questions on basic theory and technique of paper patching. [Archive]

geargnasher

06-21-2011, 01:00 AM

I can't stand it anymore, I have to try this PP thing again now that I've found this forum and found out what I tried years ago wasn't really the best way. I've been reading up on the numerous "newbie" threads trying to get the basic idea of the CBPP, I'm coming up with more questions than answers, so let me ask some that have come to mind with my first "real" foray into this art.

I'm going to try this with my Winchester model 70 in .270 Winchester using the 6.5mm Cruise Missile cut down one band (148 grain), and I bought some Office Depot 100% cotton vellum paper with the fine grid for the purpose, it's .0028" thick. The rifle has a groove of .277" and a bore of .270" and has been decoppered, but has never been fired with cast or patched before.

First, I keep seeing posts indicating to use a boolit just over bore diameter, .001"-.002" or so, and to patch to .001" or so over groove. Sound like a good place to start?

How does alloy hardness/toughness/composition play into this? I'm assuming one can push softer alloys faster with a PP, and that super-hard boolits aren't desireable. Any general guidelines for this?

Paper? I figure the Vellum paper is mentioned so much that it's hard to go wrong there, what do you guys think?

Angle of ends? I've seen everything from 30 to 45 to 60 degrees, any consensus on this? I tried 45 degrees and it seems to work ok, but I'm clueless here.

Direction of wrap in relation to rifling. I gather that it really doesn't matter. Anyone find that it does?

Method of patch application. I see dry, wet, thinned glue, dry with pasted edge, etc. I made about 20 tonight with just plain water and as-cast boolits, no lube on the boolit, is this a "try and see" thing to see if the patch comes off correctly, or would I be better off using some sort of lube film on the boolit?

Speaking of lube, I cut the tails and ran them through a .278" H&I sizer while applying slight lube pressure, this put a little bit of Felix lube in the groove areas and compressed the base nicely, leaving a .279" finish. Looks great, but who knows what the gun will think. How about the eggspurts?

Tails. I twisted them tight and laid them out to dry, they wanted to unravel a bit, but stayed tight on the edge of the base. I guess that's good enough, once dry they were stable. I see folded bases in some pics, but for a .272" boolit that would be tough to get right. is there any advantage to having a little base showing, like about the size of the spure hole?

How far up the boolit to wrap? This boolit has a long nose, I wrapped just above the break in the ogive even though the long nose patches up to be just over bore diameter. Does anyone shoot a "bore rider" with the bore-riding portion patched, or is the object to just patch the bands on such a boolit?

Throat fit? Typical guidlines for a good fit apply I assume, any tips?

Chamber neck fit. This one has me buffaloed. Some people patch the boolit up to fit a fired case, some size the case for "normal" neck tension on the boolit, some use the groove diameter to determine patched boolit OD or size-to diameter. I experimented with seating some boolits and did the latter, with .003" neck tension on the .002"-over-groove patched/sized/lubed boolit, looks great but again, IDK. It would take another full wrap to fill a fired case.

Some of you use filler, some don't. I use a lot of Dacron and slow-burning powders with regular cast, but this undersquare .270 makes me a little nervous with something like wheat bran. I don't see a lot of direct references to NOT using filler, so what are you folks doing?

Finally, I get that PP'ing is not for low-velocity stuff, so I'm assuming I should start with starting loads for J-words, and not ten grains of Unique! Sound right?

Whew! That was long-winded. Did I miss anything :confused: I know it's a long road of experimentation like any cast boolit endeavor, but I'm trying to get my ducks in a row as much as I can in the beginning, and try to get pertinent info to this caliber in one thread. Any and all tips you guys have would be greatly appreciated!

Gear

303Guy

06-21-2011, 02:55 AM

Angle of ends? I've seen everything from 30 to 45 to 60 degrees,I tried angles that allow the top start to overlap the bottom finish. I think it all depends on what's easiest to apply. Too little angle and the start corner might lift. At 30° I've not had that problem and I find 30° easy to work with.

Folding the tail on a 270? I do it with a 25 just as easy as a 30. You may apply a spot of glue under the overhanging corner but not over the boolit shank. Actually, I know it strengthens weak paper but not whether it makes any difference.

To me the most significant dimension on a PPCB is the length. That's because we nee something to hold onto while applying the patch and twisting, folding or crimping the tail (or overhang in my case).

A basic rule? Well, I suspect that filling the throat and not crushing the patch (or core underneath) during seating is rule #1.
As for lube, there must be a rule but I don't know what it is. I would say apply enough lube to make a difference but not so much as to fill the air-space in the paper and definately not a sticky lube that can get between the paper and the boolit.

As to choice of papers, I've found softer or weaker papers to be usable for lighter loads where the 100% cotton papers won't confetti. The converse might also apply.

Another basic requirement is to get some patched loads together in time for the postal competition! :mrgreen:

pdawg_shooter

06-21-2011, 08:37 AM

The best paper I have found is 16# green bar printer paper. The kind with the holes down both sides. I use a 60º angle on my patches. Match the alloy to velocity. Pure up to about 2200, WW to around 2600, and WDWW as fast as you want. I size the "bore riding nose" and shank to bore diameter +.001/.0015 and patch to the start of the ogive. I like full support for the full length of the bullet. This prevents distortion due to acceleration in the barrel. Most any lube will work. Right now I use BAC. I chose a powder that will give me as near to 100% load density as possible. This has always given me the best accuracy.

docone31

06-21-2011, 08:51 AM

I use notebook paper, or inexpensive printer paper. I make my ends at 45*. For my .30s and .303 Brit, I cut across the width into 1" strips. I then take a piece of vynl venetian blind and cut it to length. This I use as a guage to cut the rest. Once I find the length, the guage measures it for me. Being plastic, it will not dull the scissors, and I can adjust the length on the fly.
I size my castings to .308, then wrap twice soaking wet. For the .30s I size to .309, for the .303 Brit, I size to .314. I use just a tad of Auto Wax to slide through the sizeing die. The die wipes most of it off.
While wet, I twist the tail. When dry, I snip off half. This end gets rammed up to the base on sizeing.
I use a lot of Zinc castings with paper patching. They work real well.
Must be the paper.
Good luck.

Nrut

06-21-2011, 10:26 AM

Start here geargnasher...
A very good thread on Hi-Vel PP if you haven't already read it..
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=77461

Like ktw suggested below get "The Paper Jacket by Paul Matthews"..

The best paper I have found is 16# green bar printer paper. The kind with the holes down both sides. I use a 60º angle on my patches. Match the alloy to velocity. Pure up to about 2200, WW to around 2600, and WDWW as fast as you want. I size the "bore riding nose" and shank to bore diameter +.001/.0015 and patch to the start of the ogive. I like full support for the full length of the bullet. This prevents distortion due to acceleration in the barrel. Most any lube will work. Right now I use BAC. I chose a powder that will give me as near to 100% load density as possible. This has always given me the best accuracy.

Your vellum will work..
I haven't tried 16# green bar as none is available were I live..

ktw

06-21-2011, 10:54 AM

First, I keep seeing posts indicating to use a boolit just over bore diameter, .001"-.002" or so, and to patch to .001" or so over groove. Sound like a good place to start?

The published guidebook for this is The Paper Jacket by Paul Matthews. Worth picking up. His recommendation for an as cast diameter was slightly over bore diameter.

How does alloy hardness/toughness/composition play into this? I'm assuming one can push softer alloys faster with a PP, and that super-hard boolits aren't desireable. Any general guidelines for this?

I work with two alloys (WW, Range Scrap) and two papers. I experiment with the different combinations toward getting the best fit to throat/bore/groove dimensions. In general it is possible to push soft alloys a lot faster when paper patched than you can in a grease groove bullet.

Paper? I figure the Vellum paper is mentioned so much that it's hard to go wrong there, what do you guys think?

I like the Mead Academy tracing paper. It's thin and readily available from a wide variety of stationary stores. I also have a large roll of slightly thicker tracing paper I inherited from an old office move that works when I need a slightly larger diameter.

Other papers work. The ones to stay away from are any kind of coated papers. These contain a form of clay which, over time, is likely to be too abrasive in the bore.

Paper has a grain. Depending on which direction you cut it, it will stretch more or less during the wrap.

Direction of wrap in relation to rifling. I gather that it really doesn't matter. Anyone find that it does?

There were some posts here a while back that made the case that you should wrap in the direction where the rifling "tightened" the patch on the bullet as it moved down the bore rather than "loosened" it. I used to do it the "wrong" way but the argument made sense and I changed over to the "tighter" way. If it made any difference on the target it was incremental and I haven't noticed it.

Method of patch application. I see dry, wet, thinned glue, dry with pasted edge, etc. I made about 20 tonight with just plain water and as-cast boolits, no lube on the boolit, is this a "try and see" thing to see if the patch comes off correctly, or would I be better off using some sort of lube film on the boolit?

I wrap wet with straight water. I think this gives better stretch and improves the grip of the patch on the bullet after drying than wrapping them dry. I don't use any form of glue (haven't seen any need for it).

I use a very light coat of Lee Liquid Alox on the dried patched bullet prior to running them through a Lee push-through sizing die. I'm not sure how necessary it is. I do think it helps hold everything together better when bullets sit for some time between patching and loading. I don't think it hurts, provided your patch is coming off cleanly at the muzzle. I haven't experimented with shooting them dry.

Tails. I twisted them tight and laid them out to dry, they wanted to unravel a bit, but stayed tight on the edge of the base. I guess that's good enough, once dry they were stable. I see folded bases in some pics, but for a .272" boolit that would be tough to get right. is there any advantage to having a little base showing, like about the size of the spure hole?

I have shot them several ways (with twisted tails, flat bottom & covered, flat bottom with small gap). It's largely a function of how wide you cut the patches prior to applying them. I haven't seen any significant difference between them on the target but I haven't rigorously tested the differences either.

How far up the boolit to wrap? This boolit has a long nose, I wrapped just above the break in the ogive even though the long nose patches up to be just over bore diameter. Does anyone shoot a "bore rider" with the bore-riding portion patched, or is the object to just patch the bands on such a boolit?

Far enough up the nose to reduce the possibility of stripping the patch at the beginning of the rifling . I haven't tried patching a bore riding bullet.

Throat fit? Typical guidlines for a good fit apply I assume, any tips?

Chamber neck fit. This one has me buffaloed. Some people patch the boolit up to fit a fired case, some size the case for "normal" neck tension on the boolit, some use the groove diameter to determine patched boolit OD or size-to diameter. I experimented with seating some boolits and did the latter, with .003" neck tension on the .002"-over-groove patched/sized/lubed boolit, looks great but again, IDK. It would take another full wrap to fill a fired case.

General guidelines to start with
a) Smokeless loads: as cast diameter slightly larger than bore, patched diameter groove diameter or very slightly larger.

b) Blackpowder loads: use a softer alloy and a finished patched diameter of bore size. Any larger will present difficulties with loading in a fouled bore. Relies on obturation to fill the grooves.

c) I'm shooting a single shot. I avoid crimping and only use enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place during transportation and loading. With heavier neck tension you risk damaging the patch at loading and the softer alloys used won't always stand up to it. If you can load them at high neck tension without patch damage it would be worth some experimentation.

Some of you use filler, some don't. I use a lot of Dacron and slow-burning powders with regular cast, but this undersquare .270 makes me a little nervous with something like wheat bran. I don't see a lot of direct references to NOT using filler, so what are you folks doing?

I prefer choosing a powder with a higher load density over using a filler with Paper Patching. I do use Cream Of Wheat as filler in midrange loads with grease groove bullets but my experience with it is limited to straight walled cartridges (38-55).

I have worked with dacron/packing pellets/toilet paper with grease groove bullets in bottlenecked cartridges with varying results. It rarely resulted in a worse load but doesn't always significantly improve one either. I wouldn't be afraid to try it with paper patching if you felt the need to improve a particular powders burn characteristics.

Finally, I get that PP'ing is not for low-velocity stuff, so I'm assuming I should start with starting loads for J-words, and not ten grains of Unique! Sound right?

If you are looking for a plinker load it's not hard to find one with an easier to prepare WW alloy grease groove bullet. All the additional effort of patching would be kind of pointless. I would be looking at midrange to jacketed loads to make the effort worth while. The advantage to paper patching is shooting softer alloys at higher velocities than grease groove bullets allow.

-ktw

MBTcustom

06-21-2011, 10:59 AM

I tried vellum, I had better luck with green-bar paper. the angle dont matter. I read an article here that explained that direction of wrap does matter, so I wrap so that the patch is tightened on the boolit. Lube does a lot to protect the patch from the elements and it helps the paper survive the sizer, but I cant tell that it helps it shoot any better. I roll my patched boolits in 50/50 bees wax/olive oil.
It is very important to get the tension of the paper, between the boolit and the barrel, right. I had a PP boolit that was shooting great, I changed the boolit to a harder alloy and I lost all of my accuracy.
I twist all of my tails so far. I just twist and then use scissors to trim the tails short.
I wrap dry, I wrapped wet when I was using velum 'cause it would hold together but any other paper will come apart when it is whet and you will twist the tails right off.
You don't want your patch to get piled up on the rifling so wrap far enough up the boolit so that the rifling presses the paper into the side of the boolit.
I'm no expert, but that's what I know on the subject. It seems that there are many details that have to be just right in order to make it work, but when you find the magic combination, it works really well.

geargnasher

06-21-2011, 02:09 PM

Good info, I'll get a picture up tonight of the ones I patched and lubed last night. I pulled a seated boolit and measured it, the case only swaged it .0005", so I think I'll keep using the dies I have unless I start seeing problems.

I usually use as slow a powder a possible with GG boolits, it improves the loading density, launch, and seems to act as a filler itself, protecting the boolit base somewhat on initial firing and helping get the boolit engraved without blowing all the lube off before it gets a good seal in the bore. I'm considering at least H4350 for this one, maybe H4831.

303Guy, I'm workin' on it, I see we already have a benchmark set! This is going to be as much a competition of riflemen as it is of their ammunition. It's been a long time since I shot at 200 yards without the aid of some expensive support equipment, and I sucked at it then. Might have to drag out a sling and use that.

Gear

midnight

06-21-2011, 02:31 PM

My brother is the one doing the paper patching but I have helped him with it. I swaged some 0.452 pure lead 480 gr bullets for him for use in the 577-450 Martini-Henry. We used some rag paper made for paper patching cut at 45º. We made two wraps with the water moistened papar, twisted the end and tucked it into the hollow base. We dipped them in melted beeswax and loaded them over a beeswax cookie, 0.60 card wad and about 80gr of FFG. We got pretty much factory ballistics (1290 fps) which is what we should have gotten since we duplicated the factory loading procedure. Hope the info is useful.

Bob

CJR

06-21-2011, 04:37 PM

Gear,

You received a lot of good advice. I have some comments. The SAAMI chamber drawing for a 270 Win, shows the entrance diameter to the forcing cone at 0.2783"D. Many NRA articles talked about PP tearing if the final sized PPCB diameter was equal or greater than the chamber entrance diameter to the forcing cone. PP tearing caused poor accuracy. I would suspect something like 0.002" less in final PPCB sized diameter would work properly, i.e. 0.276"D. I do this and my PPCB are fast, reliable, and accurate. Also I found that sized PPCB sometimes grow a little after final sizing by about 0.001", depending on paper used. So size some PPCB, measure diameter, record, and then measure them again in a week or so.

Powder wise, I'm using 100% loading density loads with W760, W748 and I'm happy. There are some W760/H414 loads for J-bullets greater than 110 gr. However, there are many other good powder choices.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

CJR

6.5 mike

06-21-2011, 06:14 PM

Gear, you have gotten some of the best advice going, from some of the best here. The only thing I would add is, see what works best for you & your rifle. Try different sizing, paper thickness, & whatever it takes to reach your goal. That's where the real fun begins, even something that does not look like it should work is worth a try. And a 45-70 405 gr lopeing along at 1200 fps shreads the paper very well, just a puff of confettie when you get it right.:popcorn:

geargnasher

06-21-2011, 09:48 PM

HOLY BAT GUANO, IT WORKS!! :happy dance:

As soon as I got home from work, I grabbed five 1f Remington cases, prepped them, dumped in 50 grains of Reloder 22 (I like round numbers), seated some of the boolits I patched last night, and hit the range. This is a new-to-the gun scope (recoil ate the last one) I traded from another member, so I just bore-sighted it and shot the five at 25 yards to give me the best odds of hitting the target. These Cruise Missiles have an annoying tendency to fly sideways so I was hedging my bet.

Here 'tis, along with some confetti from in front of the bench, I saw a nice little shower of white flakes through the scope each shot, seems to be working great. The fourth shot flyer was a really corroded boolit I'd used just for experimentation with patch wrapping, in fact it's the first one I did and it was kinda sloppy, no wonder it flew high. The second, third, and fifth shots are 3/16" on center. The bore is immaculate, no unburned powder or paper fragments, just SHINY. I love it.

This is my first try with our new image hosting software, hope it works!

Gear

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e013fb0b7377.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1265)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e014004bd7b1.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1266)

felix

06-21-2011, 10:29 PM

Goody, goody!!!! ... felix

montana_charlie

06-21-2011, 10:45 PM

There were some posts here a while back that made the case that you should wrap in the direction where the rifling "tightened" the patch on the bullet as it moved down the bore rather than "loosened" it. I used to do it the "wrong" way but the argument made sense and I changed over to the "tighter" way. If it made any difference on the target it was incremental and I haven't noticed it.
This thread?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=755288

CM

MBTcustom

06-21-2011, 10:47 PM

That's the very one, a darn good article to read IMHO. Thanks Montana!
You see? That's the great thing about this sight. Quit the headbanging and cut to the chase! I joined CastBoolits to learn how to patch for smokeless powder rifle, and Its been great. Still haven't gotten the perfect combo, but these guys saved me years of learning common knowledge the hard way. Information is power!
Glad you got 'er goin Gear!

303Guy

06-22-2011, 02:35 AM

Good post ktw. :goodpost:

In fact, this is a good thread and should be made a sticky by virtue of summing up heaps of knowledge and thoughts.

HOLY COW, geargnasher! You hit the 'The Load' just like that!:guntootsmiley::awesome:

Now's the time to write down the rules of how it should be done!

CJR

06-22-2011, 08:56 AM

Another one bites the dust!

Best regards,

CJR

MBTcustom

06-22-2011, 09:27 AM

I agree, It should be a sticky, we have precious few in the smokeless PP section, like none so far and lots of the basic rules of thumb are right here in this thread.

Nrut

06-22-2011, 10:13 AM

Another one bites the dust!

Best regards,

CJR
That was easy wasn't it...:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

Next....:-D

6.5 mike

06-22-2011, 04:17 PM

Now another one is "hooked". Great start, now move it out & see if it stays together, that's where the real test begins. [smilie=l: Seems like someone awhile back wanted to know if a 270 could be made to shoot cast, guess this is a good answer.

geargnasher

06-23-2011, 12:21 AM

Ok, more results, moving it out to 50 yards. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on this one. First two for scope adjustment and then a group of three, then five more (red circles) for a group with the charge upped two grains. Groups are 1-3/4" and 1-7/8", respectively. At least the holes are still round, that's sort of an accomplishment in itself for the Cruise Missile at 180,000 rpm.

Interesting thing, the confetti pieces were much larger than from the first group I shot yesterday evening, not sure if the barrel is just beginning to smooth up or what. I don't know how visible it is in the pics, but there are perfect little slits in the paper where the driving bands were cut by the rifling, pretty neat. Do any of you notice trends with accuracy and the condition of the confetti? Small pieces better? Any difference?

Gearhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e02b2a547489.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1277)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e02b2a4acd95.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1276)

303Guy

06-23-2011, 01:31 AM

What I did after fire-lapping and polishing the bore was to develop a load that fully confetied the patch then loaded up a batch of those and headed into the field and they shot great! I've pulled off this stunt twice now. I would say you need more velocity and powder charge. But - twice in a row is not scientific proof! Give it a try anyway. If that principle works for you also then it will start to look like it might be fact.

Your latest groups look to me like they are shooting in a circle which could indicate a spiralling boolit path and a patch that is not confetied could conceivably cause that. I have little or no way of finding out but you do so it would be interesting to se what results you get.

P.S. I do hope you will be competing in the postal competition. :drinks:

geargnasher

06-23-2011, 02:04 AM

I sure hope to, and appreciate the encouragement and great info all of you are providing, this is a lot of fun thanks to all the threads and posts packed full of good information. I have about a hundred good boolits and 70 "match" grade, +/-.2-grain sorted ones, I hope that will be enough to at least get a load that will shoot five in a row on a 4x8 sheet of plywood at 200 yards in a month!

Keep in mind this is a 5-1/2 lb "Featherweight" Winchester, the barrel is about the size of a .270 cartridge body at the muzzle and has always had a tendency to spiral groups as the barrel heats up with jacketed. That and murder scopes. This thing is absolutely punishing to shoot with full-house 130-grain jacketed, but very pleasant with these PPCB and the slow powder. I'm going to roll some more tomorrow with better boolits than I used so far (I was using culls for the initial experiment), and I'll also experiment with increases in powder charge. Based upon case volume and jacketed pressure data I have room for at least five more grains, we'll see what that does to the confetti and groups as I increase incrementally.

I'll keep posting as I get time to shoot.

Gear

ktw

06-23-2011, 08:30 AM

Interesting thing, the confetti pieces were much larger than from the first group I shot yesterday evening, not sure if the barrel is just beginning to smooth up or what.

You didn't say what the as-cast diameter of the bullet is. I would expect the post shot patch pieces to be larger with a sub-bore diameter bullet/thicker wrap and smaller with a larger bullet/thinner wrap.

The pieces you are getting are larger than I normally see when smokeless paper patching in my 38-55 (@1800 fps). I have seen much larger pieces when shooting black powder paper patch (bullets patched to bore rather than groove diameter and lower muzzle velocity doing less violence to the patch at release).

-ktw

geargnasher

06-23-2011, 07:44 PM

KTW, sorry, it's buried in the minutia of my original post, .272" for the boolits as-cast and the bore is just a couple of ten-thousandths over .270", or what's left of the bore after the factory cut the grooves. Typical of Winchester barrels the lands are very narrow. I haven't peeled a final sized boolit to see if the core is getting sized down much with the paper, but that could cause the failure to completely shred the patches if it's going under groove after sizing and seating.

Gear

nanuk

06-24-2011, 12:20 AM

Good stuff here

:popcorn:

303Guy

06-24-2011, 02:14 AM

Good stuff hereYes! :drinks:

How well does (or doesn't) the unsized patched boolit fit the chamber and unsized case neck?

I have mentioned somewhere that I use a guage that is set from the shoulder position in the chamber to some reference point on the back of the action. If the boolit chambers to the base of neck position with just a slight nudge then all's good to go. If it goes in too far then I make it larger somehow and if it doesn't chamber all the way I have to make it smaller. So I measure two things; The chambering depth of the boolit and the fit in the case mouth.

Disclamer - My number of samples are not large enough to declare a scientific fact!

geargnasher

06-25-2011, 04:01 PM

The sized, patched boolit is a snug slip-fit into a fired and slightly belled case mouth, not much lateral wobble but not enough tension to hold it there securely. I wonder, if I honed my sizing die .001" and sized the neck less if I wouldn't be better off. It might be enough to retain the boolit. I'm going to order a Lee Collet sizing die for this, and also a straightline seating die to give me some more options playing with case neck tension and chamber neck fit. In the meantime, testing goes on....

Gear

303Guy

06-25-2011, 09:52 PM

Exactly the same as my 1902 LE I*. That's how I'm planning on shooting it in the postal. For field use I will probably slightly size the neck or perhaps even make the boolit base a little larger. Most of my cases have a dough-nut at the neck shoulder junction. Perfect for seating a loose fitting boolit against. I'm contemplating enlarging the portion of my two-diameter sizer to remove the taper over the seating portion of the shank. That would allow a patched boolit seat tight enough.

geargnasher

06-26-2011, 12:45 AM

Geargnasher has struck again. I forgot I had an old .270 sizer die that I had honed the base out of for a .45 Colt neck-sizer, tried to hone the neck on this one a bit but Lee, as per usual, made the neck portion so small that I couldn't lap it the required nine thousandths without hourglassing it too much. The RCBS FL sizer gets the necks to .303" OD, needed .3055" with these Remington cases. Then it occured to me, I have a couple of Lee .30-'06 EZ-Expander spuds in the spare parts bin, having been replaced in service with .303 British expanders (.3105" diameter on the Lee British die sets, perfect for cast in .30-30 and .30-'06!), so I took one of the .307" ones and turned it down to .2805", stuck it in a brand-new, extra .30-'06 sizer die body that needed a home, and expanded my RCBS-sized cases to .3055, giving me .001" tension on my .2795" boolits.

I also discovered I can seat these boolits out a little more to make firm contact with the lands with the PP bore-riding portion, they won't feed from the mag but I don't really care.

I worked up five at 54 grains, five at 55 grains, and five at 56 grains RX22, and five at 56 grains of H1000 just for grins.

Tomorrow we'll see how they shoot.

Gear

geargnasher

06-26-2011, 11:37 PM

Hmmmph. Fliers. Every group (50 yards, benched) had one, and some holes were elliptical. 56 grains of RX22 started to crater the primers, extraction normal but I'm not going any higher there. Good confetti and no leading, clean chamber, cases, throat and barrel, so the mechanics of the loads are working, just accuracy and stability isn't quite there yet.

What do you guys think I should try next? I'm thinking of exploring the H1000 some more, maybe going down a couple of grains and using some BPI Original filler in slight compression under the boolit. Also, I'm considering dropping back to about 52 grains of RX22 and using a tuft of Dacron.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e07face1e976.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1309)

Gear

waksupi

06-27-2011, 12:45 AM

geargnasher

06-27-2011, 01:22 AM

Quite possible. It was 104* at the range, and though the strings were fired about 20 minutes apart, after I fired the last group (on the top), the end of the barrel would sizzle spit. I usually don't shoot under these conditions, and when I have, the groups blew due to lube issues. Even my revolvers start flinging boolits wide on a really hot day. Not having done a lot of paper patching in the past, I don't know what to expect really as far as velocity, alloy, patch lube, and heat play together, but it makes sense that heat could be a lot of the issue.

I've been over this gun pretty thoroughly in the past, relieving the forearm and properly glass bedding the action, and I did re-torque the action and scope screws just to be sure. This alloy is from the modified WW group buy year before last, and air-cooled these boolits are around 14 bhn. With these loads whizzing them along at what I estimate to be at least 2800 fps with the hottest of my RX22 loads the alloy might be doing all it can do. With the fliers I'm not too confident to stick the chrony in front of it just yet, and the confetti confuses it at anything closer than ten feet.

Gear

CJR

06-27-2011, 09:21 AM

Gear,

Most likely @ 2800 fps, your pressure is close to 50,000 psi which is very sufficient to expand the CB, starting at the base forward, to your groove diameter. Therefore, I'd recommend you try dropping your final sizing diameter to 0.276"D to allow the PPCB to enter the forcing cone without PP tearing. Place PP against forcing cone, i.e PPCB cannot tolerate jumping to forcing cone (NRA comment). Once the powder ignites, pressure build-up will very quickly expand CB to fit your groove diameter as it travels to the muzzle. Also, try spraying PPCB with dry film Teflon spray first before final sizing with Alox or LBT or other lube. These are simple things to do until your rifle tells you what it likes. Hope this helps.

Best regards,

CJR

1874Sharps

06-27-2011, 06:53 PM

Geargnasher,

First, congratulations on your PP success as shown in your photos! Much great info and advise has already been posted, but I would like to comment on alloy hardness. I found in my experimentations that I could get by with a semi-soft alloy up to around 2,500 fps (168 grain bullet in a 30-06), but that accuracy degraded around this point unless a harder alloy was used. For velocities around 2,800 fps I had to go to a hard alloy around WW hardness for accuracy not to degrade. If you intend to hunt with your newly found craft, using a bit harder boolit, rather than a softer boolit is a bit safer, I think. Expansion vs. velocity seems to be an exponential function rather than linear such that with a moderate increase in velocity the boolit will expand alot more. You certainly do not want a boolit to disintegrate on a large bone on your deer or elk.

MBTcustom

06-27-2011, 10:17 PM

I would try some IMR powders. My groups tightened immediately when I started using them. Also, I agree with Sharps that you should experiment with alloy hardness. I was using an alloy that was 30% tin 70% pb and I managed to get good groups.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0960.jpg
But when I changed the alloy to a 2.5%sn/2.5%antimony/95%pb my groups started suffering much like yours are. (see the two groups on the right. The ones on the left are gas check boolits.)
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0968.jpg
I'm not saying that tin percentage has a magic effect on PP boolits, I'm saying that hardness matters. This is what I was talking about earlier, when I mentioned getting the tension of the paper, between the boolit and the barrel, just right. You may need a harder boolit or you may need a softer boolit. you might try sizing the boolit to just .001-.0015 over bore diameter, thereby faking a softer boolit, (ie. the boolit cant press the paper into the barrel as hard.) Or you might add some linotype to the stream to produce a harder boolit (ie. the boolit presses the paper into the barrel wall harder than before.)
Just some thoughts.:drinks:

DrB

06-27-2011, 10:54 PM

Gear, this is a great thread... Nice experiment.

geargnasher

06-28-2011, 12:29 AM

Well, I AM using a certified 4%Sb/2%Sn/.25%As/93.75%Pb alloy, a shade over 14 bhn, and .0015" over bore diameter after sizing the patch (I peeled one and measured), and the boolits are seated to engrave the entire nose and the leading edge of the first band in the rifling, the second band touches the throat leaving a shiny ring in the paper after chambering, so it seems to fit pretty well as far as I know how at this point.

Interesting thoughts on paper tension, that seems to be key. I'm thinking that the alloy must be springy enough to maintain expansive tension under pressure without just shredding the paper against the barrel steel, tough enough to hold the rifling and not slump at nose or base, and soft enough engrave without shearing off slivers of lead.

If you'll look closely at the confetti, the bore-riding nose can be seen on the patches, the little brown marks from the rifling just pressing in the paper slightly. The four marks seem even on all the patches I recovered, indicating a straight start with no slumping. The lands cut little dashed slits on the driving bands just on the leading edge, again it seems very consistent all the way around the boolit. I recovered a few out the log I was shooting into, only about the last half of the boolit remained as the nose was mushroomed into oblivion. I was able to recover three engraving marks and two decent bases, there was no evidence of cratering or riveting of the GC shank so the knot of paper fromt he tail twist/trim must have been doing it's job as a plug.

I think I may be just pushing them too fast for the hardness. Only one way to find out! I have some IMR4831, H4831, Retumbo, H1000, RX22, H4350, IMR 4350, IMR4064, IMR3031 and some faster. Locally I can get anything IMR, Hodgdon, Alliant, or Winchester makes, but not Accurate or Ramshot. Based upon what I've read so far, it seems that maybe I'd better get the velocity down below 2500 fps with this alloy, or go to water-quenched 50/50 wheel weights/pure. No matter the velocity or pressure so far, the confetti looks about the same, and based on the way it looks I think the paper I'm using is ok for the application. Ya'll please keep me straight here if I've made any newbie assumptions! I know my way around regular cast boolits pretty well, and I've had some pretty darn good results with high-velocity cast in other calibers, but I'm trying to carry as little of that knowledge over to PP as I can so I don't get into ass-uption troubles.

Thanks for the pics, Goodsteel, your too-soft groups look a lot like mine.

Gear

geargnasher

06-28-2011, 12:37 AM

It just occured to me, those of you who may not be familiar with Oldfeller's "Cruise Missile" don't know what the nose looks like under the paper. I'm using a Midsouth mould from a couple of years ago, it is one of the famous "oversized" ones that won't chamber properly in a Swedish Mauser because the nose is too fat. The bands on mine are .272" and the nose about .264". I cut down my mould to cast a shorter, gas-checked boolit in my Swedes, and it didn't help this boolit's somewhat notorious keyholing tendencies at all. Both of my Swedes shoot them sideways.

I'm using the short version with no check in my .270.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19217&d=1264399121

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19212&d=1264398869

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19213&d=1264398946

Gear

303Guy

06-28-2011, 01:21 AM

I missed something - 2800fps and large patch fragments from the bore ride section! I only get patch fragments that size with subsonic (I think) test loads with pretty low chamber pressures. I would think that as that patch comes away from the boolit it would upset its stability but even so, how does a piece of patch that large survive the 'blast' as it encounters air at the muzze?

A method of developing loads I have used is to increase the powder charge untill those large pieces dissappear. I wonder what could be different in this case?

MBTcustom

06-28-2011, 07:02 AM

I am puzzled by this also. You say that the rifle is punishing with full house 130gr loads, but you enjoy the lesser recoil with the PP boolits? maybe I missed something but you need to be pushing these boolits as fast as copper jacketed boolits, thats the whole idea of PP rolling. Now if you are already at max pressure, dont worry with going any further and being unsafe.
Large patch fragments are not good. That little bit of hold that the patch has as it unwraps, can throw your boolits in a spiral like 303guy says.
If you are still using the 100% cotton velum, lose it. Try green bar printer paper. I'm pretty sure that the boolit fairy sprinkles magic dust on the factory where this stuff is made, because it seems like every body ends up with a winning combination with this stuff. If you dont have access to any, shoot me a PM with your address and I will mail you some (I have a lifetime supply). I started out with velum but my opinion is that it is too strong for use with boolits and I had better luck with almost any other paper, except walmart receipt paper.
I am very impressed with your powder selection! I wish I had that many options! It seems like that IMR4350 would be a good one to try IMHO.

popper

06-28-2011, 10:59 AM

Recently acquired a box of GC boolits (30-30). After reading all I can find about GC, I have a question. Has anyone attempted to mix the ingredients of paper (or some other filler) with lube to ease application to boolits? The purpose of GC seems to be to reduce leading. The purpose of paper GC seems to be 1) match boolit to bore. 2) as paper does not 'plate' to steel like lead does or melt at low temp, it reduces leading. 3) as paper is abrasive (wood pulp and clay) it cleans the barrel.
I've heard of some using C-O-W and a wad for a GC. To my wayof thinking, a filled hard lube would solve a lot of problems.

EMC45

06-28-2011, 12:07 PM

Cool mod to that mold Gear!

MBTcustom

06-28-2011, 01:14 PM

Hey there Popper, welcome to the best source of info on the web!
You should know that a gas check does exactly that and nothing else, it stops gas from cutting around the boolit, because copper has a higher melting temperature than lead does. Leading is not caused by abrasion! leading is caused by gas cutting and vaporizing the boolit on contact. Not jumping your bones, but of all the things I have learned this year, that has been the most useful. PP serves the same purpose but eliminates the need for expensive lube and gas check and theoretically has no speed limitation. Just mixing fiber into your lube will get you some small amount of the polishing properties of paper, but you will lose the amazing fire repellent qualities that a paper jacket possesses, and you will probably hinder the hydraulic cushion that a good lube provides.
That being said, you should try it and post your findings for the shooting world to learn from. That's what it's all about here, and you never know.

geargnasher

06-28-2011, 02:12 PM

I am puzzled by this also. You say that the rifle is punishing with full house 130gr loads, but you enjoy the lesser recoil with the PP boolits? Yes, and it kills scopes with factory 130-gr boat-tails. I've handloaded for it before, using 4064 and IMR4350 with Speer 130-grain BT, and the recoil quickly got right up there around factory with midrange data from Speer #11. maybe I missed something but you need to be pushing these boolits as fast as copper jacketed boolits, thats the whole idea of PP rolling. Now if you are already at max pressure, dont worry with going any further and being unsafe. OK, think about it. I'm using up to 56 grains of RX22, one grain under book max for 150-grain SP jacketed with a flat base (Lyman #49). Their test barrel was two inches longer and was getting almost 2900 fps with 57 grains. My shortened Cruise Missiles weigh 149 grains with paper jacket and smear of lube. I'm figuring the pressure is OVER 50,000 CUP (NOT PSI), judging by the primer and the case head expansion. Common sense tells me that's at least 2800 fps, maybe more. The SLOW powder and soft, lubed boolit account for the manageable recoil the gun has with these loads. Also, I think the muzzle pressure is just about a low as it can get, the paper blasts out in a nice puff, going at most 15 feet in front of the muzzle. Observing the patch "puff" pattern, it's circular and rolls inward on itself like a mushroom cloud.
Large patch fragments are not good. That little bit of hold that the patch has as it unwraps, can throw your boolits in a spiral like 303guy says. Maybe I should use Teflon spray on the boolits before wrapping like PRS mentioned. Or not wrap so far up the nose. Or use a Loverin style boolit.
If you are still using the 100% cotton velum, lose it. Try green bar printer paper. I'm pretty sure that the boolit fairy sprinkles magic dust on the factory where this stuff is made, because it seems like every body ends up with a winning combination with this stuff. 10-4 on that, it would be an easy test. If you dont have access to any, shoot me a PM with your address and I will mail you some (I have a lifetime supply). I started out with velum but my opinion is that it is too strong for use with boolits and I had better luck with almost any other paper, except walmart receipt paper.
I am very impressed with your powder selection! I wish I had that many options! It seems like that IMR4350 would be a good one to try IMHO.

I tinker too much to have a limited selection, and I still have a bunch of slow powder from several high-velocity cast boolit experiments in recent years.

Good advice all, keep it coming!

Gear

geargnasher

06-28-2011, 08:29 PM

Loaded and shot another five today, interesting results and I have a few more basic questions. I backed off to 48 grains of RX22 and added a weighed 1/2 grain of Dacron all else the same. The upshot was the confetti was now violently twisted strips, like crepe paper but spirals, and the lube that accumulated in the depressions of the grease grooves was preserved perfectly on the strips, little lines of clean lube. Obviously the Dacron helps the seal, as it often does with bare GG boolits even with gas checks.

I know you really can't tell much from five shots, but look carefully at the first three in the string. All elliptical holes, all elliptical the same direction, all strung to the left. Then the last two round ones right together under the POA. I'm about to give up entirely on this boolit, it's been unstable at any speed in any gun in which I've fired it. If I could figure out how to keep it pointed straight ahead, I think it would group.

Now questions. Has anyone had accuracy problems that they attributed to lube in the grooves on the outside of the patch? Also, do we think that patched bore-riders are a bust because the paper doesn't get sliced through on the nose and so they don't always shuck the patch properly?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e0a71a1d983d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1314)

Gear

MBTcustom

06-29-2011, 05:22 AM

I shoot a patched bore rider and I get perfect shreds out of green bar paper.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0850.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0853.jpg
Most of the original material I have read mentions the use of tapered boolits (albeit this info was probably meant for black powder.) so I see no reason that a bore rider would be a problem.
I am pondering your dilemma though, and one of the big differences that I see between your boolits and all the others that I have seen that were successfully paper patched, is that your boolits are longer, more importantly, your patch is longer. It seems like what you want in a paper patch is just enough patch to protect the boolit long enough to get it out the bore. (ie. if you imagine that your barrel was 3 feet longer, you would want the patch to fail somewhere in that last 3 feet.) Any more or less and accuracy suffers. 303guy has a rifle that just blows a mist of fibers out the barrel and it shoots great. You shouldn't throw in the towel just yet. If you're that frustrated, load up about fifty of 'em and go to the range, cut the patch back with a knife to the next lowest GG, and see how it groups then go back one more etc.
Also, just try a weaker paper, even printer paper will do. Shoot a few that way, with the full length patch, and then with the shortened patch.
Wrap up some of those fifty, in both styles, without lube of any kind. (I realy dont think its hurting anything, but as far as shooting goes, I dont think its helping either.)
If all that fails, I think you should try a different profile. You say that this "cruise missile" design has not ever worked well with any combo before? I have a question: Is this boolit longer by any amount than another boolit that shoots well out of the same rifle?

nanuk

06-29-2011, 01:20 PM

after looking at the pics that Gear has posted of the nekid CM, I can understand GS's suggestion of cutting the patch back to the first drive band.

the .272CM nose has to be under bore diameter. perhaps that is causing something to affect the release.

if it was cut back to the first drive band, leave the nose bare, that may make all the difference.

I have read guys comment on long tapered boolits where they don't want the patch to extend onto the nose beyond where it will contact the rifling

Question: are you patching them WITH the GC, or without?

geargnasher

06-30-2011, 08:19 PM

Ok, here's another try. This is the same load as post #46, only this time I used green bar printer paper as was suggested. The patch was nothing but a mist of fibers coming out of the muzzle, I never even found a piece, so it's coming apart like it's supposed to, I hope not too early though. The bore is fine, no leading or fouling. I fired ten shots at the target, I don't have a clue where #8 is, glad my range backs up to a fairly large hill because that shot either missed the 4x4 backstop at 50 yards or went into an existing hole. Some of the holes are slightly elliptical still, but more randomly. 4-7/8" at 50 yards makes this by far the worst group yet, not sure what's going on. I'm not blaming the patch material, though, I think it's working fine, I get supurb accuracy from my Marlin .30-30 using paper gas checks stamped from manilla folder material, and the blast of fibers at the muzzle is similar to the way this patch is behaving.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e0d12903bccd.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1346)

Gear

303Guy

07-01-2011, 05:03 AM

Hi there popper (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?u=19580). Welcome aboard!:drinks:

That's a very good idea, mixing paper pulp or wood fibre with lube. It might just make a superior lube for some applications. Filing fibre board is a good source of fine wood fibre. I would think the principle of operation would be different but it might just be bringing the best of both worlds together. I've made smooth sided cast boolits with a thick layer of lube on them with the idea that the lube would actually ride between the boolit and bore (on the nose anyway). I stiffened the lube with candle wax for the purpose. It worked. I melt it and dip the boolit noses in it. I might just try your suggestion although it won't work in my molten stuff as the fibre would separate but as a mix in beeswax consistancy lube should be great.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-338F_edited.jpg

... you will probably hinder the hydraulic cushion that a good lube provides. You will also lose the air cussioning that paper provides - assuming that it's important or even real.

geargnasher, you might try printer paper for its thickness. (Just in case the extra diameter is needed to hold the boolit aligned and to stop any free-bore jump).

geargnasher

07-01-2011, 02:14 PM

For what it's worth, I had the same idea about adding some sort of cellulose fiber to grease to make boolit lube. I thought about sanding dust, but that always contains abrasives sloughed off from the sandpaper. After a lot of thought, I decided to use baker's extra-fine cake flour. I also tried 100% whole wheat flour. I mixed them with Mystic EP bearing grease and let the flour soak up the oils until it stabilized. I was left with stuff that was just a little softer than Play-Doh, and it was a such a miserable leader in the two pistols I tried it in that I abandoned further testing. I used it in known-good loads with know-good boolits and alloy, using a proven formula and only changing the lube. I think Col. Harrison had it right when he found that there was no benefit to adding solids to GG lube, of course someone may come along and prove us both wrong, so go for it! My flour experiment was partially aimed at helping determine to what extent lube acts as a viscous fluid seal. I was trying to make Stop Leak Lube.

Gear

nanuk

07-01-2011, 03:31 PM

for fine wood fiber, I wonder about using a fine rasp. No abrasives to slough off....

BUT how the heck would you apply it to the whole outside surface of the boolit, where it would be needed? Oversized Lubrisizer?

geargnasher

07-01-2011, 07:56 PM

Just for fun I shot five more this evening with the 266469 (cast at .268") and patched to .278" with Vellum. Five inches at 50 yards, I'm not even going to post a target. I still have some Speer 130 gr. boat tail spitzers, they get loaded next.

Nanuk, no gas checks with any of these.

Gear

303Guy

07-01-2011, 08:44 PM

Looking at this boolit, I would suggest the possibility of insufficient nose support which could cause the boolit to tilt slightly in the bore. This might cause circular group patterns. I don't know this for a fact - just a thought and an observation.

geargnasher

07-09-2011, 07:12 PM

I think I'm on to something, now. Today I loaded up five 130-grain Speer boat-tail spitzers with 52 grains of RX22 to verify the rifle and scope. That's the target on the left. 1" at 50 yards. Far from stellar, but the powder is a bit slow for the bullet, and I just seated them .010" off the lands and went with it.

The next target is the cut-down Cruise Missile again, patched with Vellum just over the ogive like before, sized .2793", lubed with just a hint of Felix lube in the paper grooves, .002" neck tension, just enough crimp to straighten the bellmouth, same 52 grains of RX22 and Federal 210 primer, but THIS time I settled the powder and added .7cc of BPI Original shot buffer, which went about halfway up the case neck when lightly tamped. The boolit further compressed it about 1/16". Now the patch blows out in small fragments about caliber size, and the boolits no longer yaw, note the round holes in the target. I think we have a winner here.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e18ddc30334d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1427)

So, what I've learned so far about paper-patching with this particular gun and boolit:
> Felix Lube in the patch lube grooves doesn't seem to be a problem.
> Vellum paper works in certain situations.
> Patching the bore-rider nose of the boolit isn't an issue as long as the paper will peel off evenly at the muzzle.
> Twisted and cut-off tails work if you leave a knot of paper on the bottom.
> 45-degree patch cuts can work just fine.
> They can be loaded hot with 14 bhn alloy in small bore.
> Wet patching with plain water worked for me in this application. I read a comment on Molly's article over at the lasc. site about using Sprite to wet patches, made the tails stay twisted better he said, I may have to try that.
> Most importantly, how the boolit leaves the muzzle crown is key to getting accuracy. The BPI filler trick that I learned from 45 2.1 (Bob) in his HV Swede loading instructions seems to help that, as well as get the slower powders to burn more consistently.

Gear

nanuk

07-09-2011, 10:47 PM

I'd be ecstatic if I got those results.

what velocity do you think you are getting?

geargnasher

07-09-2011, 11:22 PM

I'm guessing around 2650 to 2700 fps. It's hard to judge with the filler, it raises the pressure the equivalent of about what three grains of powder would. Might be closer to 2750.

Gear

nanuk

07-14-2011, 08:04 PM

2750fps with a boolit in the 150gr range, is right up there with factory loads.

if you can get consistant accuracy from that, you'd have a long range killer for sure

docone31

07-14-2011, 08:24 PM

That is why we paper patch.

Lonerider

07-15-2011, 12:42 AM

AS mentioned in another thread, I am just now inching my way down the 'roll you own' trail. This has be a good thread for me to read also.

For me, I will be shooting bullets cast from Bruce's 462-465 GC mould in my guide gun.

I have read Paul Matthews book The Paper Jacked several times. I agree, I think this would be a good sticky.

Lonerider

geargnasher

07-15-2011, 01:03 AM

The tips and advice given here have been outstanding, it has really shortened my learning curve. My intent with the thread was to get as much information as possible in one place, then apply it to one gun and see what I could make of it. The experimentation continues, hopefully I will be getting some chronograph data in the next few weeks, and shooting at longer ranges. I'll keep you all posted, I also have a paper gas check thread and a .45 Colt NEF thread going that I'm working on as well, plus a 45/90 PP project that will get some attention this weekend.

Gear

303Guy

07-15-2011, 04:24 AM

That is why we paper patch. That's one of the reasons! I simply enjoy rolling 'em.;) And the fact of being able to make a scrap bore actually shoot.

I wonder how a black powder charge might work with a 245gr paper patched 303 Brit ..... ?:roll:
I remember making black powder and actually shooting with it. It couldn't cycle my 9mm Star but shot accurately and it was quite nice in my 44 mag and very good in my 12ga. I never did try it in my 303 Brit (not that I can remember anyway).

grullaguy

08-07-2011, 12:37 AM

This is a great thread. I have to admit my post is mostly to bring it to the top of the list, so I can reference it easier. heh heh

motorcycle_dan

09-11-2011, 01:06 AM

I simply enjoy rolling 'em, And being able to make a scrap bore actually shoot.

Well, that's where I'm at. I have newbie questions. Recommend a powder load, I have Varget, and some slower pistol powders, green dot, unique, H110 and Tite Group, Clays, etc.

My goal is trying to make a worn out .303 barrel shoot. I have some 200gr bullets where the nose is smaller diameter than the driving bands. They were made for GC, Use it or no? It's a 5 groove rifling so how can I accurately size the projectile to the bore or groove?

How far up to patch? How to properly seat and crimp the bullet? I hear they patch should just contact the rifling.

I have another .303 that shoots the same lubed bullet well with 12.5gr of Grn Dot. That one has a tighter groove diameter..

Any help appreciated.

303Guy

09-11-2011, 06:01 AM

Well, I'd try patching them without gas check and seating them into an unsized case neck. I'd patch them just up to the beginning of the ogive and see if they will just push into the muzzle. Changing paper thickness should achieve the desired diameter. Then I's seat them to the base of the neck using a starting load of Varget for j-words and see what happens. I think the minimum safe load for Varget is 75% load density but that may vary with boolit weight and I may be being over cautious. Work up the load until reasonable pressure is achieved, i.e. the primer is beginning to show that there has been some ignition as in a bit of flattening but not squaring of the edges. If the bore is rough from pitting it will need to be smoothed some by fire-lapping or other lapping. I prefer fire-lapping. Only the sharp edges of the rust pits need to be rounded. I use STP Oil Stopper on a lube pad to lubricating the patched boolits. Only a tiny amount is needed. The loaded round should be able to chamber and extract without the boolit being pushed into the case or pulled out and left in the throat. Test this with an empty and unprimed case. I insert the boolit into the throat and see it it can be just nudged to the neck base and pushed out again with a gentle tap from a cleaning rod. That would be my approach. It has worked for me with my pig gun so it might work again.

Dirty30

01-18-2012, 03:34 PM

I have two questions with regard to paper patching. Is it critical to run boolits through a sizing die after paper patching? Would there be any benefit to paper patching HB boolits, or will it prevent obturation and decrease accuracy?

303Guy

01-20-2012, 07:23 AM

Isn't that the original paper patch boolit design with a hollow base into which the twisted patch tail nub was squeezed?

MBTcustom

01-20-2012, 08:00 AM

Dirty thirty, It is my belief that sizing the paper patched boolit is cheap insurance. I mean thats the size most of us have a sizing die for. sizing the slug is whole different ball of wax because you have to make or buy a custom sizing die for the lead core. So most of us have the die to size the patch and after all the work of getting the custom sizer, making the boolits, sizing the boolits, wrapping the boolits with the special paper, why not run them through the sizer to make sure they are all the same?
Now as far as the hollow base goes, I believe that it could only help the PP booliteer bu making it easier to obturate the base of the boolit, as well as giving a lovely pocket for the tail of the patch to be pressed into by the sizer. I liked the idea so much, I built a special mold just for that:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0522.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0517.jpg

geargnasher

01-20-2012, 04:37 PM

Paul Matthews talks about that a lot in his book, the HB was typically used to fold the base into. I don't know if it helped obturation with smokeless powder (that's what the patch is for, right?) but with black powder and bore-sized finished patched diameter and soft lead I'd say the HB would sure help. I've never needed an HB for smokeless and harder boolits, but I'm also working with much higher pressures and bad things happen to boolit bases at muzzle exit if the base is weakened too much.

As far as final sizing goes, I do it because that's how I apply lube to the patch (lots of heat to thin the regular boolit lube I use so it won't rip the paper), and it gives me the warm fuzzies knowing that there's one more variable that I have under control. You don't NEED to if your paper selection gives you the final size you need all by itself.

Goodsteel, once again I envy your talent and access to tools. What caliber are those?

Gear

MBTcustom

01-20-2012, 04:51 PM

I think they drop @ .300"? Something like that. I didn't get a chance to experiment with them very much.

Goatwhiskers

02-23-2012, 08:03 PM

Re: what popper and nanuk were talking about using wood fiber (how much?) in a known good lube, what about mixing let's say rasp shavings with LLA. I use the dipping method with tumble lube type bullets and cut off the excess with an unsized case cookie cutter style, so this might leave enough fiber material in the grooves to achieve the desired result. I just might try this after I hear what others say. Goatwhiskers

geargnasher

02-23-2012, 08:23 PM

Goatwhiskers, I'd use a much as possible in the lube, and let it soak in melted lube for a good while to stabilize the mix. I've made some with rock maple filings and Felix lube but haven't got a round to shooting it yet.

Gear

2manygunz

04-09-2012, 07:31 PM

Guys,
I hope I'm not breaking any rules or upsetting someone, but this is really bothering me.
I have been casting for years, but now that ammo is sky-high, I feel the need to try paper patching for hunting bullets.
The problem...... Ever since day one, I have read and been told not to eat, drink or smoke or put your paws near your mouth when working with lead compounds.
Nearly everything I read says wet the patch with saliva and roll onto the base of the bullet.
Am I missing something here??
I am ( by some accounts) already short a few marbles. I don't want to risk losing the few I have left.
Thanks for any informed input.
2manygunz

Nobade

04-09-2012, 07:51 PM

Well, I sure don't wet patches with saliva. Not only do I not want any more lead in my blood, I just don't have that much spit! I just use an old tuna can with some water in it. I run the patch through the water, squeegee the excess off with the other hand, and wrap using a cigarette roller. Dump the water out when you're done or the can will rust and you'll need to find a new one eventually.

barrabruce

04-09-2012, 07:57 PM

2 manygunz no I don't think you are missing something.

I use a small dish to wet my patch some use a sponge like a stamp wetter at the post office used to use.

I wash my digits before doing something else...sometimes..if I remember correctly that is.

geargnasher

04-11-2012, 12:08 AM

I use a small glass condiment dish and distilled water (our water has more calcium and iron in it than water!), and with some papers it helps to add a pinch of baking soda to the water to help soften the paper.

When wrapping, I use a board, lay the patch on it with the tip overhanging, and squeegee off the excess water by wiping and smoothing the patch with my fingers. Timing the wrap also helps, if the patch soaks too much or you wait too long it can disintegrate.

Gear

myfriendis410

06-22-2012, 02:16 PM

Here is the load shot with as-wrapped and no lube or sizing. It's typical of the accuracy I have been getting with this bullet.
Attached Thumbnails

myfriendis410

06-22-2012, 02:18 PM

So; I did a couple of things. Tried RL7 shooting for a velocity between 1,500 and 1,600 fps. I used as-wrapped sketch paper without running through the sizer, being careful to get a TIGHT wrap. I coated the paper patch with automotive wax and allowed it to dry. The load was seated to the lands with a very light taper crimp on the bullet.

See the target attached. Velocity was 1,510 fps average.

(n.b. the two above posts were recommended for attaching to this sticky. Hope it helps)

saltriver73

12-21-2012, 06:17 PM

Been patching for a year or so. First with a 45-70. My falling block seems to like the cast/swaged core to be .002 or more over bore size. Have wrapped .452 and .454 and both shoot well. I've had good luck wrapping 9# onion skin; two wraps. With a good boolit, the gun doesn't seem to dislike any charge, but has shot best with 350PP - 15g Unique, 425 Ranch Dog boolit - as cast, 350@425PP - 30g 4759. Finally got a 30 cal PP boolit to shoot well in a Savage and sporterized Enfield by going to a cast .311 boolit, sizing it down a little and wrapping - then sizing back to .311. My experience has been better with oversized boolits rather than ones where the slug is only .001 or .002 over bore. I'd like to hear what some of the rest of you have found successful. Currently working on PP for 8mm and 30-30, but not satisfied. Partof the problem is that the barrels are just a wee bit oversized. Saltriver73

Old Scribe

04-19-2014, 09:58 PM

These posts are gonna get me into trouble. I'm going to give this PP a shot (pun intended).

Ricochet

09-28-2014, 07:51 AM

I've shot cast boolits most of my life, and cast for about 25 years, but though I've been intrigued by paper patching since I was a kid I'm only now about to try patching and shooting my first ones. I've read through this sticky, the one on the LASC site by Mollohan and Iong, and lots of interesting threads here. A couple of questions I'm wondering about before I start wrapping: (1) On two-diameter boolits like bore riders, should the patch length be based on the diameter of the smaller part, to prevent patch overlapping there, or would you still base it on the larger diameter? Seems to me like the former would be best, but it will slightly increase the gap over the larger part. (2) If in looking at your boolit diameter, target overall patched diameter, and papers on hand, and see a combination with a thin tough unfilled paper that would give perfect dimensions with 3 wraps, is there any good reason not to try it? Is the double wrap carved in stone and handed down from on high, or just convenient? Thank you for sharing your experience! :smile:

geargnasher

09-28-2014, 05:36 PM

I'll take a stab at it, The bore/groove dimensions of most modern rifles have a pretty standard net value, regardless of caliber. You're looking at groove depths of around .0025-.0045" Most rifle throats will allow up to .002" more patch thickness beyond groove diameter. What works for me is sizing the entire core to a thousandth or two larger than bore diameter and patching to just below throat entrance diameter. Groove diameter is really fairly irrelevant here. Size your necks only as much as necessary to hold a patched bullet that is just small enough to go into the throat.

here's an example of a system that worked for me. In a modern .270 Winchester, a .271" as-cast core with only slightly smaller nose (.269 tapering up) patched to throat entrance diameter of .2785" took two wraps of 100% cotton Vellum or two wraps of wet 16 lb Green Bar printer paper. A .2685" core patched with thicker paper to .2785" printed shotgun patterns in the same rifle. Under-bore cores don't shoot well at all, ever, in my experience UNLESS you're talking pure lead and black powder, which is a whole different plate of enchiladas. Cores much more than three thousandths over bore don't shoot well, either, nor to long, under-bore noses regardless of how fat you patch them. I'm speaking strictly about modern rifles using smokeless powder at factory ammunition velocities.

Another example is a typical .30-'06 with a throat entrance of .3105-.312", bore of .300-.301" and groove of .308-.309" Again, two wraps of 16 lb green bar, vellum, notebook paper, or Meade Sketch paper will bring a .302" core up to right about .311" and shoot MOA or better at factory ammo velocities.

.45/90 Winchester, same deal. .453" cores patched to .461" shot best. Name-brand notebook filler paper did the trick, didn't try green bar because I didn't have any when I was fooling with it. .45 Colt rifle: Core at .448", just larger than bore, patched to .456" for a snug throat entrance fit and snug in a fired case shot best. Again, two wraps of just about any common writing or printing paper did the trick.

I would never say that anything is carved in stone with regard to the paper jacket, but I have done a lot of things the WRONG way, and this method just works. It also happens to be convenient. I don't know of too many papers that are thin enough to make three wraps and come out in the "works best for me" tolerance range or that would be strong enough to withstand the wrapping. Then you add another 50% to the stretch factor and difficulty of having the ends of the wrap come out right.

Regarding your first question, I personally have had the best luck using a lightly-grooved, torpedo-shaped bullet which has minimal under-bore-diameter nose length. If you do use a sort of bore-rider due to throat shape or short throat situation and thus find yourself patching a tapered bullet, my solution has been to cut a patch with slightly different angles on the ends. If carefully stretched when wrapped wet and allowed to dry, it is possible to achieve a no-gap situation and still have a tapered patch. I think I put up a bunch of pictures here about how I used a tapered patch on the AM-30-160 in my '06. Patch gaps can hurt accuracy a little depending on how large they are, but an overlap, in general, is worse. I try to keep my patch end gap less than a thumbnail-thickness wide.

Hope that helps. I'm kind of stuck in one way of doing this since it works so well for me.

Gear