First time loading cast boolits, 30-30

[sven556]

I finally got around for a second casting session tonight and managed a decent amount of acceptable boolits. I cast Lee's 170gr fp from wheel weights. The boolits were water dropped. Now my goal here is a hunting load so I'm looking for near factory velocity, 2000-2100 fps.

So, I have these boolits sitting here. What do I do next? I have gas checks and a Lee .309 sizer. Can I follow the instructions that came with the sizer? Is the Lee liquid alox a good lubricant at the velocity I'm looking for?

What's a good powder for this load? Preferably something that's not temperature sensitive. I have varget, but I'm thinking 3031 or reloader 7 might be better suited?

One casting question; what causes wrinkles in the boolits and rounded bases?

Thanks,
sven

[slim1836]

"First time loading cast boolits, 30-30"

Try pre-heating the mold to a hotter temperature, that should take care of it.

Slim

[res45]

what causes wrinkles in the boolits and rounded bases?

Mold isn't hot enough and your not getting good fill out either. How do you preheat your mold before casting and what temp are your running you alloy at?

I load the Lee 170 gr. RNFP for my Sav. 30-30 pump gun,I shoot two loads with that bullet design.

1. WW alloy water quenched shot as cast no sizing,two light coats of Lee Alox/JPW tumble lube,no gas check with 7 grs. of Alliant Red Dot,Win. LR primer and no filler. Great plinking and small game load MV around 1250 fps.

2. 30 to 1 Lead/Tin alloy BHN 9,one very light coat of Alox/JPW TL,gas check applied with the Lee .311 push through sizer my 30-30 likes a little fatter bullet. Second coat I ranch dip the bullet in the liquefied Alox/JPW lube to fill the lube grooves and set on wax paper and let dry overnight. Then I push the bullet back through the sizer gas check first which compresses the lube into the grooves and keep any lube from building up on the bullet nose. I use 28.0 grs. not a max. load of H335 MV @1900+ fps.

Both loads are very accurate in my Sav. pump gun and the Alox/JPW leaves my bore nice and shiny. All load data came form the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/rhsikes/res45/30-30cast018.jpg

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Of course there are several powders to chose from and they all work. I have used IMR 3031 successfully for a long time in three different 94's. A good starting point is 25 grains. I settled on 27 grains as it gave the best grouping generally for the 3 guns. You can go as high as 30 or 31 grains which is pretty much standard factory spec...around 2000-2100 fps. I wouldn't push beyond that; no sense in looking for trouble. LLS

[Rocky Raab]

I use that 7.0 Red Dot load, also. Very nice plinking load.

As mentioned, I use a thinned LLA first coat, a pass through a .309" Lee sizer to seat the gas check and then a second thinned coat of LLA. I load 16.0 of 2400 for an accurate 2000 fps load.

My alloy is a more or less random mix of wheelweight metal, recovered range bullets, scuba weights, shotgun shot and sometimes a bit of solder thrown in for good luck. Air cooled.

[Papa smurf]

I also have a Lee mold, but mine gives me 181grs with the gas check from wheelweight metal. I get 1710 f/s from 20.5gr of IMR 4198, and it's very accurate.
Good Shooting ================== Papa Smurf

[quilbilly]

I have been extremely happy with Alliant 5744 in my 30-30. I am shooting the Lee 160 gr GC boolit. Personally, I don't think you need to be over 2000 fps for a hunting load if you are hunting deer from my experience with doing the "wet phone book test" for terminal ballistics. From the penetration and performance of my water dropped boolits at 50 yards, you can go down to 1600 fps and still be extremely effective out to 150 yards. I have found that at around 1600 fps, that 30-30 is more fun to shoot all day without getting too tired.
If you are hunting black bears like the one that tried to break into my barn yesterday afternoon, 2100 fps would be better but I have my 444 marlin for that.

[sven556]

Thanks everyone. I have some 2400 so I think I'll give that a shot first. Is there a good way to seat gas checks without having to size the bullets?

[leadman]

Varget would probably be the best choice for full velocity and temperature stability. Hodgdon has data on their website.

I use H4895 in my 30-30 with the Lyman 170gr at 2,200 fps.

3031 is a great powder but it does have some temperature sensitivity.

A good lube will be necessary for shooting without cleaning issues. I use Carnuba Red.

Loads some up with what you have and see what happens.

[Char-Gar]

1. You will be happier if you don't water quench those WW bullets.

2. Wrinkles and rounded bases are caused by mold or melt too cold.

3. Gas checks must be crimped on during the sizing process. You can do that when you run them through your Lee sizer.

4. I used 3031 for factory velocities and 2400 for velocities under 1.8K fps.

5. I am not a fan of LLA, use another lube if you can.

[sven556]

Chargar; Why would I be happier if I don't water quench my bullets? And what lube would you suggest over LLA?

[Ben]

sven556

Your question of :

Why would I be happier if I don't water quench my bullets?

Most likely the reason that Chargar made that comment is your statement below. It was the 3rd sentence in your original post.

" The boolits were water dropped."

[Char-Gar]

Sven... The whole concept of tempering ww alloy came about by target rifle shooters wanting a cheaper way to get an alloy as hard as linotype.

The way it was done is to heat them bullets in an oven and quench them as a batch in water. From there folks just started to drop the bullets from the mold into a bucket of water. That seems to have caught on among the newer caster and shooters and is often pitched as "the way" to do things.

Here are my issues with the notion:

1. For hunting bullets these water quenched bullets are far too hard. Air cooled WW with a little tin added will stand a much better chance of deforming when it hits game.

2. Rock hard bullets are much harder to size and can eat up a traditional lube size machine.

3. Bullets that are "water dropped" are not as uniform in hardness as those that are batch tempered in an oven, if you really feel the need to temper a bullet.

4. Often times rock hard bullets cause more problems than they solve. Soften bullet very often produce better accuracy, depending on pressure of the load.

5. Despite the opinions to the contrary, I don't think water quenching is a good way to do things on a regular basis. It may have some uses, but they are rather narrow in scope.

When it comes to bullet lube, there are many, many good ones on the market. Bullshop makes some good ones, the old NRA 50/50 formulas as sold by Javelina and others also is good. There are also some good formulas for home brewed lubes out there. I have been using a mix of 65/35 beeswax to Vaseline for over 50 years with no problems. I dont think it is better than others, but it is cheap.

[Rocky Raab]

Read what Chargar wrote again. He's spot on.

Go ahead and try the LLA, either as is or diluted a bit with mineral spirits for faster drying. You'll either like it or not but you can't know which it'll be until you've tried the stuff. Personally, one version or another of LLA is all I use and I'm perfectly satisfied. Since it comes with every Lee sizer, you'll soon have a lifetime supply of the stuff virtually for free.

[sven556]

I water quenched so I could later anneal the nose of some bullets for hunting. Is this not a good idea? what should I use for hunting?

[canyon-ghost]

Relax, Sven. They really are very hard bullets but, you can still use them. Shooting cast, your velocity may not need to be as fast as copper, the lead seals off better, meaning that, it will go fast enough to shoot accurately. Accuracy is the key to shooting cast. Your recoil is also going to change. The muzzle jump will disappear and the rifle will come straight back, for the most part.
You have an entire experimentation stage ahead, where you'll have to do load development slowly and carefully. Stay calm and you get a prize load.
Ron

[Char-Gar]

Sven... I don't want to curb your fun or mess up your learning curve.

I have never tried annealing the nose of a bullet, therefore have never shot game with such a thing. I have never done it, because I never found the notion very appealing.

Game is not hard to kill with traditional alloys. Air cooled WW will do the job in a bullet of good design. At the end of the day, killing deer is all about shot placement. Monkeying around with bullets will change that.

[sven556]

no worries here! I'll have fun either way. I'm here to learn and if you can keep me from wasting time trying something that you guys know the answer to, then I come out ahead.

I know shot placement is key but a 30 cal hole straight through the lungs and heart will still allow deer to run a considerable distance. The first deer I ever shot was hit broadside through both the heart and lungs, turning both into mush, and it still ran over 50yds! Using the lee 170gr flat point with air cooled ww; will they expand on impact? Will the flat point cause enough damage without expanding?

[Atakawow]

I load 16.0 of 2400 for an accurate 2000 fps load.


May I ask what bullet weight do you use? 2000 fps from just 16.0 gr of 2400 sounds like the bullet must be very, very light.

[leadman]

You can try air cooled wheel-weight and see if you can maintain accuracy at the velocity you want. I have found it much easier to maintain accuracy at 2,000 fps and up with water-quenched alloys.
In my 30-30 with WQWW and Carnuba Red lube, Lyman 311041, 170gr boolit at 2,200 fps I do not have to worry about any leading or inaccuracy. The nose will still deform and the boolit will hang together when fired into a soft dirt bank.
Haven't shot any large game with it yet, maybe this year. does work great on jack rabbits though.

[Rocky Raab]

Atakawow, as per the thread's original post, that load is with the Lee 170 FN bullet. My data logs show that I rounded up the speed in my post a bit; that load gives 1956 fps average. Rifle is a Savage 340 with a 24" barrel.

[Gunnut 45/454]

Yep I run the Lee 170 gr in both of my 30-30's and my '06's! Great bullet very accurate and you can run them fast. My pet load for hunting is 28 gr H4895 for the 30-30's at 1998 fps! The bullets actually wt in at 179-181gr cast from WW water cooled! In my newly aquired Rem 7400 I've run them to 2350 fps!

[Rocky Raab]

170! 1998! Really! Cast bullets!

Punctuation! Periods!

[Three44s]

I'd try Charger's suggestion with the air cooled alloy plus tin.

The tin will help fill out in your mold. Get your mold and or melt hot enough and some added tin will do the rest.

I like two runs of thinned LLA myself but I use some powdered moly added to mine.

On this web site there is a source for an even better liquid lube ......... and you can do some searches for JPW either in conjunction with liquid lube.

The harder you make your boolits (like water quenching) the less they will obuturate and as Charger points out ...... you'll want expansion.

In dropping boolits into water ........ you are not getting as consistent as you would if you batch heat treated either.

Another process is to cast soft nosed boolits. Then if a hardened base really does better in your gun you can have truely soft noses with hard bases.

For ease of use, it's very hard to beat tin .......... though!

Three 44s

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Load up those wrinkly boolits. You can learn from them.

Casting and reloading are a bit seperate. For a levergun you must figure out what feeds in and out of the magazine with out a bobble, and what ejects loaded. And what chambers with out jamming the first band or other wise interefering with smooth chambering. Figure out the moderate crimp position, a Lee FCD is good and a need.....for accuracy. Cases should be the same OAL, loads too. Neck size to the base of the seated bullet as long as the case chambers even though bulged. Use an M die to very slightlly bell the case mouth.......Not a tapered gizmo. Match prep if possible. Standard primers. Batch process all cases at one time then load as needed when testing the initial decision on powder type or charge ladder later.

I like 31+ XXX varget with my 31141 @ 174 grains w lube & gc. My Win 94 holds SR-1 ten ring at 100 yards off sandbags, irons, on a sturdy bench at about 2050 fps, although there is case capacity left. H335 and 4895 might be the ticket too.

I Use WW and about 1/4 Lino and 2 oz. tin in a 4 pound mix. It wlll expand a little on bone but you loose very little weight. You just can't guess or buy a powder lottery ticket. Do the work. Read about 40 pages of our levergun forum too. Good shooting.

BvT

[Papa smurf]

Gunnut 45/454---Yah Really !-- Do it all the time in my Marlin . In fact I get 2100 in my 8x57 Turk using surplus 4895 and Lee's 175 gr WW air cooled. Good Shooting-----Papa Smurf

[dale2242]

I use 2 loads in my 14" TC Contender.
Bullet is Lyman 311291 at 167 gr. Lubed with 50/50. half WW-half Lino
Light plinking load: 10gr Unique
Heavy/hunting load: 32gr BLC-2.
Zero leading....dale

[Gunnut 45/454]

Rocky Raab
Yea thats what I get. Pretty bad when you can load cast bullet faster then factory j wads! :)