Lubing bullets with no lube grooves

[Bob58]

I got a "good buy" on some .430 diameter bullets thru the mail. Found out why - they don't have any lube groves.

I tried the "tumble lube" procedure with Lee's liquid Alox, but I still get pretty heavy leading, even with velocities around 800 fps. This is out of a 629 that doesn't lead at all with Penn cast bullets at 1100 fps (and Lee's liquid Alox.) I suppose I can drop to 600 fps or so, but I really don't want to do so.

Any suggestions for how I can use these bullets at reasonable velocities (at least 800 fps, and I would really prefer 1000 fps)

Thanks,

Bob58

[bruce drake]

The swaged factory bullets I have appear to have rolled-in cannelures.
__________________
"A cheerful heart is good medicine."

THis is from Richochet's answer on another thread.

Perhaps a cannelure would help on this.

Bruce

[tommag]

No lube grooves makes me think they are for paper-patching, but what would have a groove diameter of .438 or so?

[Leftoverdj]

My guess is that they are swaged rather than cast. If so, they are dead soft, and you may have to give up on getting 1000 fps. Check by squeezing one against a bullet of ac WW in a vice.

Johnson's Paste Wax might work in this case. I've used plain swaged bullets lubed with a thin wax that did work. The better makers lightly knurl swaged bullets to give the lube places to stick. If you are minded to experiment, you might roll those bullets between two files to do the same thing.

[mag_01]

Bob you could chuck them up in a drill and cut groves in them like tumble lube boolits and then a double coat of LLA---depends how much work you want to put into them------also this may be a place where filler would work-------Mag

[1Shirt]

So much for good buys! If it was me, I would toss them in the pot, add an equal amount of wheel weights, and cast my own, after chalking it up to experiance with good buys. The older I get the less time I have to go back and correct my mistakes. Do have time to make more however.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[30yrcaster]

Bob,

I did a test for Lee many years ago with their liquid Alox lube and smooth sided bullets. It won't work. As soon as you load them up, the shell scrapes off the lube even if you have the case belled like a funnel. The only way to make them work is to put a cannalure on them or knurl them. I knurled them up along with the Lee Liquid Alox and they shot great with NO leading.

If anyone is wondering why I would have smooth sided bullets, here's why. I bought Corbin eqiipment back in the 80's to swage up lead pistol bullets. I got what Dave Corbin recommended to do it and it didn't include anything to knurl or groove the bullets. I asked how the lube would stay on and he told me he had special "DIP LUBE" designed to stick on the bullets and soak into the pores of the lead. He had a sample bottle of the "DIP LUBE" for $8 but he told me it would eat thru the plastic within a short amount of time so recommended I should get a gallon of the stuff for $85 which came in a metal can. That was alot of money back then. Back then you waited weeks or months for mail order so trying to get the sample didn't seem like a good thing.

Guess what, the "DIP LUBE" was a bunch of crap and it didn't work. When I told him about it he told me "Well, it's not the best stuff for this" and recommended getting a cannalure tool or knurling tool for another $100 or more. I was out of money at the time for the project so I put the thousands of swaged bullets I made on the side and went back to casting.

Years later when I saw the Lee Liquid Alox I contacted them and asked how it worked with smooth sided bullets so they gave me a free bottle and asked me to try them and give them a report. When it wouldn't work I ordered a hand knurling tool from Dave Corbin for around $100. Guess what? It says in the doc that came with it that it's not for heavy use and will wear out. It's just for sample runs. You really need the heavy duty one for several hundreds of dollars. When using the hand tool I have, you want to wear a mask as it generates alot of fine lead dust.

When you buy stuff from Dave Corbin, he doesn't tell you what you really need because when you put the totals together and see how much it will cost, you may pass. Once you get sucked in, you need to keep buying more stuff to make the project work or be stuck with equipment that won't get the job done. Richard Corbin (RCE) on the other hand is more up front and doesn't do that to you.

[Ricochet]

Wonder how a dry lube like graphite or moly might work in this situation?

[jonk]

Regarding what would have a groove diameter of 439 or so, how about 43 Spanish?

[SharpsShooter]

Press roll the bearing surface of the boolit between a piece of flat steel and a coarse mill file to make a reverse impression of the file on the boolit. This will increase the lube capacity when using LLA to a degree that makes them usable without leading if they fit your gun properly in the first place. I'd use two coats and allow overnight between coats.

SS

[44man]

Thank god for hard cast and grease grooves!!! I was sent a bunch of soft swaged boolits with some coating on them to test. I believe half the boolit lined the bore. They made great round balls though after melting down.
LLA, paste wax---BAH-HUMBUG!
Look at all the postings here and on other sites. More questions and problems with this junk then any other problems combined.
Good cast boolits with good grease grooves and a good lube are proven to work--why fool with mother nature?
Why not put copper jackets on those smooth sided and file rubbed boolits? How about baked on Teflon? I am surprised nobody has tried painting the boolits.
Nah, some of you can try and tell me how great the stuff is but you will never make a believer out of me. Some guys spend hours and hours with the stuff (And much money.) while I smear some Felix or Lar's lube in the grooves and go shoot without a hitch.

[sundog]

44man, +1....

[KCSO]

In my case I was given 1000 bullets and I was too cheap to waste them and too stubborn to melt them down so I spent 2 days making a tool that probably cost 3 time the worth of the bullets. Sorta like that old country song "The Winner".

[SharpsShooter]

44man,

The point of the question was how to make due with what he had and in this case it was a grooveless boolit. Yes they are soft and need to be loaded to reduced velocities. I have shoot 1000's of 38 swaged wadcutters and if approached correctly, leading was not an issue. The suggestions put forth would allow him to use those boolits and enjoy the fun while considering other options such as grooved boolits. It wasn't an LLA vs. lube contest.

Considering that this was his first post, I think helping him get started with boolits in hand is what this place is all about. Sure there may be better choices, but the approach that nothing works but what you use ain't too effective.

SS

[wiljen]

Is graphite as a dry lube really a good idea? I read that under a vacuum it is abrasive and wonder if it wouldn't be so when compressed between a bullet and barrel. I had asked the same about tungsten disulfide at one point as it has good lubricity and particle size when compared to moly. Come to think of it, I never got a solid answer to that question either. (but that was on one of those other forums)

[redbear705]

How about a Lee collet neck crimping die?

Just have to figure out a way to keep the cannelure (crimp) in the same spot on all boolits.

JR

Just A thought....:)

[felix]

Wilgen, yes, all these metallic additives are abrasive, but comparatively speaking about other possibles, like sand particles flying around the range, they are quite nice. Hot loads are the killer though, using the sand in the primers. Plus, high antimony boolits without covering tin, are equally abrasive. The moral of the story is to turn your head the other way and have fun shooting loads that shoot good. Barrels are cheap when compared to your stress worries about their longevity. ... felix

[44man]

Sharpshooter, I understand that he would like to use the boolits. Just passing along that I gave up on those kind. I shot thousands and thousands of factory .38 wadcutters years ago and if I remember correctly, the rifling would vanish and even the outside of the gun would be leaded. I got the job of cleaning a lot of them for the Cleveland police that shot at the range and all I can say is ----never again, thank you. A good de-leader is plastic explosive. Many times I was tempted to heat the barrels cherry red to melt it out. It cost me more for brushes then I made from labor. Didn't dare shoot a jacketed bullet out of them either with all the bore obstruction.
I will keep you in mind and if anyone ever gives me more, I will send them to you--FREE.
I think my approach was good because I don't wish that work on anyone.
Bob stated he wants to run 800 to 1000 fps too. If he has a few thousand of them and has to run each over a file, I don't wish that on him either.
Most of the suggestions here are 10 times more work then melting them down for muzzle loader boolits or balls. Also mixing with WW metal.
Lets say he has 2000 and it takes a minute to roll each and lube them. Thats over 33 hours!
Are you giving him an easy way to shoot? Good way to discourage a new poster.
And what happens when he still gets bad leading after all the work? Who will he cuss? NOT ME!
I know I am an old grouch and some of you like to jump on me but I feel good about what I said and I also protected my butt from getting cussed out---so there!

[ARKANSAS PACKRAT]

As usual 44man givin good sound advice!!! I'd run them thru the pot for something else, probably RB.
Nick

[SharpsShooter]

Sharpshooter, I understand that he would like to use the boolits. Just passing along that I gave up on those kind. I shot thousands and thousands of factory .38 wadcutters years ago and if I remember correctly, the rifling would vanish and even the outside of the gun would be leaded. I got the job of cleaning a lot of them for the Cleveland police that shot at the range and all I can say is ----never again, thank you. A good de-leader is plastic explosive. Many times I was tempted to heat the barrels cherry red to melt it out. It cost me more for brushes then I made from labor. Didn't dare shoot a jacketed bullet out of them either with all the bore obstruction.
I will keep you in mind and if anyone ever gives me more, I will send them to you--FREE.
I think my approach was good because I don't wish that work on anyone.
Bob stated he wants to run 800 to 1000 fps too. If he has a few thousand of them and has to run each over a file, I don't wish that on him either.
Most of the suggestions here are 10 times more work then melting them down for muzzle loader boolits or balls. Also mixing with WW metal.
Lets say he has 2000 and it takes a minute to roll each and lube them. Thats over 33 hours!
Are you giving him an easy way to shoot? Good way to discourage a new poster.
And what happens when he still gets bad leading after all the work? Who will he cuss? NOT ME!
I know I am an old grouch and some of you like to jump on me but I feel good about what I said and I also protected my butt from getting cussed out---so there!


As usual 44man givin good sound advice!!! I'd run them thru the pot for something else, probably RB.
Nick

So where is the helpful information??? You assume that the gent has the means to melt and recast into something that would be useful in your opinion. You also assume that he has 2000 of them to do in order to exagerate the work factor involved, when in fact no specific number was mentioned. Without those specifics, what remains? Pretty simple if you ask me...get them shooting with what they have to start with and guided them in the direction of casting as a better option to what they are using currently without dismissing their situation as unworkable.

Make no mistake, this is not a flame. I just tire of the assumptions that a new member has all the tooling to jump in and start casting. Most do not.

SS

[44man]

Sharpshooter, but remember, poor results can sour a beginner from ever getting involved in our great sport and joining this fine forum. I respect what you have to say. I just believe telling it like it is can be more helpful and will let the new guy understand that any poor results is not the norm and can be corrected.
If he did not have any equipment to cast, poor cast or swaged boolit results might just keep him from ever trying again. I would sure like to keep him here!
From the sound of his posts, he is well along with what is needed though, so he might have much more experience then you give him credit for. I did and still do!
I think he asked a good question and I gave a good answer that in 99% of the cases, those boolits won't work without more labor then they are worth.
I see you are saying the same thing I have been saying all along, guide them in the right direction. You should have said the boolits MIGHT work for him but he would be better off by looking at other options instead of flaming me over more years of experience then most of you have been alive. I wasn't born with a silver spoon, I was born with a cast boolit, a bullet and a round ball. Hurt like hell trying to sleep!
No, I won't get into a p@%$*&^ match with you because I still like what you have to say and I never get angry because you don't see things my way. I still respect your opinions and it does the new guy good to see all of them. I don't know, maybe you don't like me but I do not feel the same way about you.

[9.3X62AL]

Ease up a little, folks. Good points all around, but stridency produces more heat than light.

[Treeman]

I think that the rolling on asmooth surface with the edge of a mill file and using Liquid Alox has some real possibilities-It certainly shouldn't take a lot of time and effort to do a few and see. Another possibility is to use Lee CASE lube. The deep draw lubricant is used on some .22 rimfire loads and might work on your big'uns.

[Bob58]

Thanks, guys, for all the help. I will try the file procedure, and also the Johnson's paste wax. I'll let you know how they work out.

I lowered the charge of Win 231 to (I think - I'm at work now and don't remember for sure) to 5.5 grains. Velocities ranged from (I think) 623 fps to just over 700 fps. Leading after 10 rounds was considerably less, but still present. The biggest drawback was one I should have anticipated, but didn't - at that low a pressure level, the empty cases looked like they had been dipped in liquid smoke. My nice previously shiny 629 now looked more like a dull 29. So much for reduced charge weights.

I love cast bullets, but have never tried casting them. I'm somewhat of a perfectionist, and suspect that I'll get discourage over the long learning curve.

I'll probably have to learn to cast at some point, though. I have a Freedom Arms Model 97 in .45 colt, and really want to shoot cast bullets thru it. The problem is that the barrel-cylinder gap is so small, that just a few shots with lead bullets puts enough small lead deposits on the cylinder face that it no longer wants to turn freely. No problems with gas checked or jacketed bullets, though.

Again, thanks for all of the help. I appreciated ALL of the replies (including the one from the gentleman who basically told me not to waste my time with these bullets.) By the way, are you a mind reader? I bought exactly 2000 of these .430 smooth bullets!

[Leftoverdj]

How about baked on Teflon? I am surprised nobody has tried painting the boolits.


Tried both. Worked pretty good, too.

Some folks just want to shoot, and some like some tinkering mixed in with their shooting. Nothing wrong with either.

If I had paid for 2000 bullets that did not work, I'd be willing to put some effort into making them work, too.