recurve bow

[MBTcustom]

I have been pursuing archery about as long as I have been shooting cast boolits. last summer, I got bit by the traditional archery bug. Not having enough money to buy a recurve bow, (as usual:violin:) I decided to make one.
ordered up some materials from 3rivers and bingham and set to work to make a cheap recurve bow. Also I made the original investment of buying 6 arrows, but the fletching started to get torn up, so I asked all the turkey hunters at work if they would bring me the wings from any turkeys they bagged. It was not long and I had 6 turkey wings-worth of feathers setting in the shop. I figured out via youtube how to use a belt sander to make them suitable for fletching, and I refletched 3 of the worst ones by tying them on with artificial sinew.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5339.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0990.jpg
All the materials and fixturing cost me less than $200 to make or buy and I ended up with a very attractive bow, albeit on the heavy side (75# draw) I got it done just in time for bow season last year, and I practiced like crazy for two weeks.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0985.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5531-1.jpg
It paid off because I killed the first deer of the season with that bow. (which also was the first deer of the three that won me the Arkansas Triple Trophy Award.) Its also the one I am holding in my avatar.
Well as you can see, I'm a healthy example of what southern cooking can do to combat hunger. Today I missed lunch and was outside working on my PP boolits and I decided to peek around the side of the house, and sure enough, there set a fat Arkansas squirrel about 20yards out munching on a hickory nut. I reached over and got my bow and strung her up, licking my chops the whole time. I let fly with one of my turkey fletched arrows with a small game blunt. I popped that squirrel right between the shoulders (seems like no matter what I'm shooting, thats where I hit 'em).
The rest is history.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_0987.jpg

[camaro1st]

very nice bow. any plans on making any more?

[MBTcustom]

heck yeah, i have everybody in my family asking for one. They just dont want to pony up a measly $100 so I can get the materials. Even so, I bought enough fiberglass and glue to put together two more, I think I'll make Christmas presents out of 'em.

[camaro1st]

thats is so like family!!!:roll: it looks really nice. if you ever decied to make some to sale please keep me in mind or if you need a nother family member.[smilie=1:

[MBTcustom]

You really really really should make your own. You cannot believe the deep sense of satisfaction that comes from a project like this! It is realy very simple to do if you have a band saw, a hand plane, a square, and a good rough file. I built this one for $190 and it cost me about fifteen hours work/3 weekends. It almost cost more to get the arrows, glove, and target butt than it did to build the bow. I made the form out of the cheapest plywood that I could find, I got the inner-tube for free, and I had to buy a cheap vise and a couple of clamps. Look into it!
(check out the hood on my quiver. I made it out of the bottom of a bottle of nail-polish remover of my wife's:-P ):redneck:

[John Taylor]

[QUOTE=goodsteel; I think I'll make Christmas presents out of 'em.[/QUOTE]

Would you put me on your Christmas list?

[Multigunner]

Thats some fine craftsmanship there. A bow to be proud of.
I've toyed with the idea of trying to recreate a Scthyian recurve bow using original materials and the glues used at the time.
Theres been a few of these recreations made in recent years. An incredibly strong and resilient bow.

Best I've made was a Long Bow and arrows I made for a class project.
I could penetrate steel fence panels at around 100 yrads with that old bow. I used dental floss to make the string, a trick I picked up from a book on home made crossbows.
I've used the same method to make strings for other bows to do till I obtained a proper replacement string.

[Von Gruff]

When I was doing joinery in the late 60's we were making a few different laminated water sport toys. I lived in a lakeside town so there were tabogans and skis and so for me the progression to making a bow was a simple step. Not sucessfull like yours goodsteel but enough to whet my apetite for archery, especially after I shot one of mothers chooks off the back fence, thinking it was too far away but a blind fluke will happen from time to time. After it broke, I got a 60lb recure sent out from Canada. Was with a girl one day looking for a rabbit when we stopped for a spell under the shade of a tree as it was a hot day. Left the bow strung and while we were thinking of things other than hunting I heard a snap and looked up to fine it had delaminated from the handle through about a foot of the upper limb. Never really bothered with bows after that but can certainly admire a good piece of workmanship.

Von Gruff.

[Arisaka99]

I'd be willing to pay the 100$ for the measly materials... haha, but at a lighter draw..

[Nrut]

Impressive all the way round goodsteel !

[JeffinNZ]

Nice work. I am just toying with the idea of archery right now. Testing the water at my club.

[longbow]

That is a nice looking bow and some good shooting!

You are right, there is a sense of satisfaction in making functional tools and weapons. Not to mention the fact that you can also save a pile of money by making things yourself. I am sure those are a couple of the reasons we all cast boolits!

I make and shoot my own wood bows. Mostly unbacked selfbows but some with less than stellar grain get backings.

I feel like a kid when I have my stick and sting in hand.

I had seen the Binham kits many years ago and was going to one so was getting stuff together when I moved to a property that had yew trees on it. The previous owner had clearcut the yard and knocked down several yew trees. I pulled them out of the slash and started carving.

I managed to get a few decent bows out of the scrap wood and have been making wood bows ever since.

I never did get around to making a laminated bow though!

Good work. Enjoy!

Longbow

[theperfessor]

Very nice workmanship! I am not an archery guy so I'm not going to ask to be put on your Christmas list but an invitation for fried squirrel would be welcomed.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Fine looking recurve ! I never thought about making a laminated.. You did a nice job..70 # and you are ready for bear..
Yards sales turned up all the recurves I can ever want. My heaviest is 55# and it will shoot through corn crunchers at my ususaly range of 15 yards and less. I hunt river bottoms on choke points & the shots are never far. Threw a spear at two last time up.
I have been a recurve shooter since dad brought home a Shakespear 45# . I cannot imagine going through life without a bow. I have a Bear 50# takedown down here with me.. and there is nothing to hunt but lizards and a partrige type bird..
Mike in Peru

[Arisaka99]

I'd like to get a bow, but with my draw (32in) IDK if I'd break one??? I would make one, but im not very crafty, so knowing me, it'd be a piece of ****... What kind of trees in VA could be used to make a bow?

[MBTcustom]

You know the funny thing about this bow is that it shoots 500grain arrows at 210fps. My first compound bow, a PSE nova, shot arrows of the same weight at 230fps @ 70# draw.
Nobody reading this post should feel daunted by the good looks of the bow! It was pretty easy to make!!! just glued up a bunch of strips of wood into a riser, sawed and sanded it into smooth curves and glued on the limb woods and fiberglass one limb at a time, more sawing and sanding and voila! a usable bow! It is not a thousand yard crawl over broken glass. If you have access to a band saw and get a few extra blades, it is a snap. If you have access to a disc sander and get extra sand paper for it, it is even easier. By doing it the cheap way and forming the limbs one at a time, it will naturally balance itself out, and shoot very strait and smooth.

[Wayne Smith]

I'd like to get a bow, but with my draw (32in) IDK if I'd break one??? I would make one, but im not very crafty, so knowing me, it'd be a piece of ****... What kind of trees in VA could be used to make a bow?

Chris, the underside of a branch of an Osage Orange (Bois d'Arc) was and is the most common used for a single limb bow. For a glued up laminate you can alternate multiple woods.

With a 32" draw you need a 7' longbow! Just the right size for you.

Guys, he's 6'5" at fifteen years old!

[nanuk]

I'd like to get a bow, but with my draw (32in) IDK if I'd break one??? I would make one, but im not very crafty, so knowing me, it'd be a piece of ****... What kind of trees in VA could be used to make a bow?


Chris, the underside of a branch of an Osage Orange (Bois d'Arc) was and is the most common used for a single limb bow. For a glued up laminate you can alternate multiple woods.

With a 32" draw you need a 7' longbow! Just the right size for you.

Guys, he's 6'5" at fifteen years old!


Arisaka99; remember, you pull a trad bow far shorter than one with training wheels. I pull a compound to about 30.5, and pull my trads to 26"
and a fiberglass backed bow can pull to an incredible draw... selfbacked is different. but 32" draw, a 64" fiberglass bow is easily within the realm without too much stress.
even a well made flatbow of osage can pull 1/2 its length.

Wayne: the upperside is the one to use, wood grown in tension is far better than wood grown in compression. Compression wood has a habit of twisting and breaking easier. I sure wish we had Osage up here. the best we have by nature is birch, and it likes to be backed with something.
our import trees like maple, elm, ash work well, but the city really hates it when I fire up a chainsaw to cut one from the boulevard.
I understand Tamarack will work OK, but it is very difficult finding one with no twist.

the first bow I built that did not break was a BoardBow of Mahogany. I overlaid birch on the tips, and wrapped the handle with cord. it pulls 43#. I call it Big Ugly!

[Arisaka99]

Well, IDL what I could pull. I'd like to get into bowhunting, but i have a hard enough time rifle hunting.. :oops: This would mostly be for fun and small game hunting. Im just afraid of having a bow snap and send splinters of wood into my face. How do you laminate the pieces together?

[longbow]

Arisaka99:

Not sure what sort of hardwood selection you have in VA but I am sure there are trees good for bows.

Some I know work well:

- osage
- elm
- ash
- hickory
- maple
- birch
- choke cherry
- walnut
- hazlenut (a bush not a tree)
- red oak
- white oak

As for draw length, wood bows are a little more sensitive to overdrawing than glass laminated bows but I had a 64" black locust flatbow that pulled 50+ lbs at 28" and a really large guy asked if he could try it. The bow hadn't turned out to what I wanted so I didn't care if it broke so I warned him it might but he wanted to try anyway. He pulled it to full draw of 31" and did it no damage at all. That was an unbacked selfbow.

There is lots of info on the internet about bow building for both selfbows and laminated bows.

Just so we don't hijack the thread, I won't go on here but if you are interested in information and links, PM me or start another thread and I will post links and info I have collected over the years.

Now, back on topic:

goodsteel,

Did you come up with the laminating form yourself or was that described in the Bingham kit?

I was going to use the inflated firehose form when I started on the laminating path but that inner tube idea is simpler. Just curious as that looks like a really good idea.

Yeah, about that 70 lbs., that is a stout bow! I used to pull 70 lb. longbow but these days I am down to 60 lbs. and under. My regular yew stick is 57 lbs. which is plenty for me.

I also made my own fletching jigs that work pretty well. They put on either right or left wing fletch in straight offset not helical. I got real tired of using my JoJan single fletcher and couldn't bear to part with the money to buy a multi fletcher so I made five simple jigs and they work well for me. If you are interested PM me and I can send photos and/or a sketch. They would be simple for a guy like you to make.

Longbow

[MBTcustom]

Ok, just for the record, I did not use a kit from bingham. I had this old bowmaking book that my dad had in his bookshelf that told how to make the "Ultra Bow" It told how to make the forms and how to select the materials. I think it was circa 1950? Anyways, I had been reading this book since I was about sixteen, and I finaly figured that I had enough tools and wherewithal to do this project. Not only that but I had been trying to scrape together the money for a Bear recurve for three years and it just wasn't going to happen, but I wanted a dad burned recurve and I am just not good with doing without something that I want really badly "its a curse" so I dug out this old paperback book from my dads shelf and started doing the math. As it turned out, I figured that even if I scrapped the first one, I could get it on the second try, and still come out cheaper than the store bought bow.
The instructions made it clear that the bow would only be as good as the form that was used to glue it up in, so I spent the first weekend and evenings of the subsequent week, building that form. I went to Lowe's and bought the cheapest plywood they offered. It was 1/4" thick 4X8 and was just over 10bucks a sheet. I bought two of 'em. I cut one of the sheets down the middle, giving me two square pieces 4X4 I then ripped those pieces into 5 equal strips each I laminated them together with Tightbond 3 and used coffee cans full of boolits for wieght (and ant other lead I could find)
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5302.jpg
I then cut a few inches off the end of the stack to square up the band saw blade.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5321.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5322.jpg
Once I was satisfied that I could get a good square cut, I cut a template out using the transfer method in the book.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5308-1.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5306.jpg
I used the template to cut the form.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5311.jpg
Once the form was made, I had to scrape it in to being smooth and square using a chisel and sand paper.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5334.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5335.jpg
After that I drilled holes in the form and pushed 5/16 steel rod through to give me something to hook the rubber strips on.

[MBTcustom]

After I had the form completed, I set to work on the riser. I got all of my strips together and glued them using Tightbond 3 wood glue. (I used the chunk I cut out of the form as a fixture to hold them flat.)
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5318.jpg
Once the glue was dry I located the center of one of the maple strips, and glued it to the stack of riser woods.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5320.jpg
Then I used the saw to cut the riser profile into the strips in order to give a smooth transition. I used the square to make sure that everything was right, and scraped the woods untill they were as perfect as I could make 'em. I also feathered in the riser block into the limb wood so that it was a smooth transition.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5329.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5330.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5331.jpg
After that I taped wax paper to the form to protect it from the epoxy that I was going to use to make the limbs.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5336.jpg
I placed the fiberglass down first then the riser block and the strip of maple, then the other strip of maple, then the final strip of fiberglass. I whipped up the epoxy and spread it on the limb laminations. You can see in the following picture that I am did one limb at a time and held everything in place with the big clamp.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5337.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5338.jpg
Then I wrapped the living schite out of it with the innertube banding.
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5339-1.jpg

[camaro1st]

i showed swmbo some of your handy work and she told me i needed to start outsourcing some of my hobbies. :not listening: So with that said, can i get the name of the book you used?

[MBTcustom]

Then I set the homemade heatbox over it to help the glue to set up in time for hunting season:razz:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5340.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/100_5344.jpg
Once it was done curing, I busted off the rough glue that got squeezed out of the joints, flipped it around and repeated the process.
After I did all that, it was a simple matter to cut the taper on the limbs, cut the sight window, cut the handle and file in the string notches.
I also built a rough tillering string, tillered the bow, almost shat myself at how perfect it came out, and ordered a custom yellow and black string to match the color scheme of the bow. I also reinforced the tips with yellow-heart and finished it with polyurethane.
I started shooting it, and to my dismay, found that I could hardly hit the bag 10 yards away and I darn near pulled my fingers out of socket pulling it back. With bow season just two weeks away, I had my work cut out for me, But I kept at it and by the time bow season opened, I could hit a paper plate at 20 yards pretty much every time.
So there it is! If any body wants to hijack the thread now, and post some pictures of your stuff and how you do it then by all means git 'er done! I would like to see some of those self bows!:D

[longbow]

goodsteel:

Sorry, I misunderstood when I read "Bingham" in your first post and assumed you had bought components from them in kit form. Bingham does or did at one time sell "kit" bows.

Terrific write up and great work on both bow and form. You've got yourself a nice bow and a form to make others.

Longbow

[Mk42gunner]

Man I have got to get a better internet connection so I can view these picture heavy threads.

Goodsteel, It looks like you do very good work.

I was impressed when I saw you drawing a 75# recurve with bare fingers. I used to shoot my old Bear Whitetail (six wheel compound that way), but I was hualing hay and working in a tire shop at the time. My fingers aren't nearly as callused now.

Robert

[handyman25]

Very good work.

I started shooting in 1949, made my own bow and arrows. got used 38 special brass for the tips from the police and turkey feathers from the turkey farm I worked at on the weekends for the fletching. I made a fether burner that worked great. Got the idea from Popular Mechanics. Brings back good times.

I case you do not know DO NOT STORE THE BOW STANDING UP. I have seen two bows break and both owners stored them standing up on end. I was told by my elders never stand your bow on end, always lay it on a shelf or two pegs near the handle. the weight of the bow puts pressure on the bottom limb and over time makes it weak.

[nanuk]

GoodSteel:

I like it!!!

Good stuff. I would love to have a copy of that book also. I've got a few, but mostly about selfbacked bows and not glassbacked.

Your work looks incredible. And your attention to detail shows in the outcome of the final product.

to make a 45# bow, I might guess you could just leave out one lam of maple.
Narrowing is not always an option.

Again, GREAT WORK!

[Arisaka99]

That looks really easy, how did you make the handle, Im a lefty, and so I'd need a left handed bow. Also, how would you make a lesser draw weight, maybe 50-60lbs?

[nanuk]

Arisaka99: lesser draw weight on a glass bow is done through thinner or less lams, and narrower limbs.

You can't work it down too much like you can with a selfbow.

I'm a lefty also, it took me quite awhile to find reasonalbly priced used LH bows. I have two now.
one is 65# Martin and one is a 50# Bear. I don't like the draw weight on the martin, so I just use the bear.

I thought I had a trade on a #45 Martin, and that would have been perfect for my hunting, but that fell through. I keep looking though

[longbow]

Here are a few photos of some of my selfbows:

http://s1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc416/kent9497/

Not sure how this works as I have never used Photobucket before but it seems to have randomly sorted photos.

I was having trouble with resolution in shrinking photos to suit Cast Boolit requirements so thought I would try this. I hope it works!

The bows:

- yew bow, rawhide backed and camo'd. That one was 65 lbs.
- Birch bow, built as prototype for a Scout bow building project. It is a birch board with glued on handle and backed with fiberglass drywall tape. This one is 40 lbs.
- Juniper bow, backed with ripstop nylon. This one was a challenge as it was very twisty, knotty and generally nasty wood to work with. It turned out okay and shoots well. It is 54 lbs. This one was a lesson in never again allowing someone to cut wood then get me to make a bow from it! That "recurve" in the lower limb is natural and believe it or not I untwisted a severe propeller twist in the limbs. From now on I will cut the wood or I have to learn to say "NO!".

These bows were all backed because the wood was not the best. My old crooked yew stick I shoot often is made from two bullets spliced at the handle, is unbacked, 64" nock to nock and 57 lbs.

I also have other bows of yew, black locust, red oak, maple, choke cherry, hazelnut and wild cherry. A couple are backed with silk but most are unbacked. No photos handy though.

Once I got bitten by the wood bow bug I never got to making a laminated bow.

Longbow

[Arisaka99]

They're pretty, Longbow!!!

[rmcc]

GREAT job on the bow!!! Looks good and obviously shoots well.


Rich

[Wayne Smith]

Still a little twist in that Juniper, Longbow. How does she shoot?

[longbow]

Most of my stave bows are a little twisty, that one is very twisty! I managed to untwist it quite a bit believe it or not and I also had to take a sideways bend out of it but after, the string runs across the handle pretty near the center and it shoots quite well.

My old yew stick is an "S" shape. It was made from two billets spliced at the handle and the tree had a bend in it so the upper limb bends to the right and the lower limb bends to the left but again the string runs across the handle and it shoots very well.

I have never made a really snaky bow but here are some links to photos of snaky bows:

http://www.stickandstring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=374&d=1299815607
http://hooknbullet.com/article.php?id=509
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/39628/t/68-BlackLocust-Selfbow-55-28.html
http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/tf/lw/thread2.cfm?forum=23&threadid=221450&messages=20&CATEGORY=4

As long as they are tillered right and the string runs across the handle they can shoot very well.

Longbow

[MBTcustom]

Sorry fellers, I cant find that little book anywhere. Ill bet its just buried under the wreckage of one of my projects. I do remember that on the back it said "Fireside archery". I got the impression that it was a book that came with a kit way back when, and I figure that it would be very hard to find a copy. I did find almost all of the same information via google search, free for the viewing. the most important part, and the part that is different from modern practices, is the form, and how you build the bow one limb at a time. The inflated fire-hose thing looks real cool, but it is impossible to get both ends of the bow exactly opposite each-other when you build the bow all at once. Also, the limbs dont need as much pressure on the tips and riser as they do in the most aggressive part of the curve. The rubber strips allow you to stack the pressure a lot harder in the curve where it needs it.
I think you can spend as much time and money as you want to but you won't necessarily get a better bow than if you just went the cheap straight forward way.
I liked some of the pictures that LongBow posted. Look at the one that shows the tillering view "down the string". You will notice that although the limbs are twisted, they seem to mirror each other? That bow will shoot well becuase both limbs will snap shut in the same way. By building a laminated bow on a form, one limb at a time, you get this same effect even though it is so subtle that you couldn't see it. Just because two limbs look the same, does not mean they will act the same way through their stroke. The little book said that this is the key to getting a bow that is a good shooter. It claimed that even forms that had been made on precision machinery, out of steel or aluminum, could not guarantee the level of precision that is created by a single limb form. I have to say that I buy this argument totally. I have shot a few recurves in my day, and even though this one is almost twice the weight of the other ones, it shoots like a dream. I feel comfortable shooting tennis balls at twenty yards. I just love watching the fletching twist the arrow into the exact spot I was concentrating on. I took a shot at an anoying little bird the other day that was about 30 yards away, of course the bird got out of the way long before the arrow arrived, but I was pleased to see the fletching kiss the limb that the bird was perched on. (good thing he moved:-P)

[white eagle]

Very nice work
proud of your accomplishment for sure
I have like you given up all the things I thought I needed to bow hunt
last year I quit hunting with a compound bow and like you went trad.
bow,arrows shooting glove thats it
no sights,release or any of the other necessities needed to shoot a compound bow
the way I see it anyone can shoot a compound bow but it takes dedication and talent to be good with bow and arrow

[Arisaka99]

Do you have a nock on your string? Ones like these http://www.cabelas.com/product/Hunting/Archery/Bow-Tuning/String-Accessories|/pc/104791680/c/104693580/sc/104234580/i/103974480/Saunders-Original-Nok-Set8482/743721.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fhunti ng-archery-bow-tuning-string-accessories%2F_%2FN-1100016%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_103974480%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253Bcat104791 680%253Bcat104693580%253Bcat104234580&WTz_l=SBC%3Bcat104791680%3Bcat104693580%3Bcat10423 4580%3Bcat103974480#BVRRWidgetID

Could you use a release on one of these? I already have one, thats why im asking :). Cabelas has a lot of trad. archery stuff, but I dont know how well the prices are.. I'd like to get into archery, but I was going to get a compound, and if I can make my own recurve, then I can get into it, and for much cheaper than I would have if I were to get a compound.. Thanks guys for being enablers!! ;)

[waksupi]

Chris, if you go traditional, forget the release. Use a tab or shooters glove.

I prefer a thread nock that I make myself.



Do you have a nock on your string? Ones like these http://www.cabelas.com/product/Hunting/Archery/Bow-Tuning/String-Accessories|/pc/104791680/c/104693580/sc/104234580/i/103974480/Saunders-Original-Nok-Set8482/743721.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fhunti ng-archery-bow-tuning-string-accessories%2F_%2FN-1100016%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_103974480%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253Bcat104791 680%253Bcat104693580%253Bcat104234580&WTz_l=SBC%3Bcat104791680%3Bcat104693580%3Bcat10423 4580%3Bcat103974480#BVRRWidgetID (http://www.cabelas.com/product/Hunting/Archery/Bow-Tuning/String-Accessories%7C/pc/104791680/c/104693580/sc/104234580/i/103974480/Saunders-Original-Nok-Set8482/743721.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fhunti ng-archery-bow-tuning-string-accessories%2F_%2FN-1100016%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_103974480%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253Bcat104791 680%253Bcat104693580%253Bcat104234580&WTz_l=SBC%3Bcat104791680%3Bcat104693580%3Bcat10423 4580%3Bcat103974480#BVRRWidgetID)

Could you use a release on one of these? I already have one, thats why im asking :). Cabelas has a lot of trad. archery stuff, but I dont know how well the prices are.. I'd like to get into archery, but I was going to get a compound, and if I can make my own recurve, then I can get into it, and for much cheaper than I would have if I were to get a compound.. Thanks guys for being enablers!! ;)

[MBTcustom]

I have a knocking point on the string, and I have several mechanical releases from when I shot competition compound bow. How ever I would never use a mechanical release on a recurve bow because you need the string to roll off your fingers to get the "archers paradox" to work correctly. Look up "archers paradox" on you tube and watch some slow motion videos, and you will see what I mean.
Having chased both disciplines further than most, let me say that you can decide which direction to go based on the answer to a simple question: How much do you like to shoot? If a typical week isn't complete without shooting a bow at least a few times in the back yard, then I would definitely say that you would like traditional archery. If you cant see yourself shooting much except to "get ready" for hunting season, I would say that you had better stick to compound bow, and you shouldn't expect very much success, no matter how much money you spend. I have invested equil amounts of time practiceing with both styles and I have to say that I enjoy the extreme accuracy that is possible with a well tuned compound bow (I once placed 6 arrows in a levi-garrett snuff can, 60 yards away) but I don't like all the extra weight, noise, and all the stuff that can break, come loose, get tangled, rotted or mildewed. Also, compound bow is expensive. Every thing that goes on one of those bows costs money, and you had better have deep pockets. I find that I can shoot almost as good with a recurve as I can with a compound (its a constant process) and it is cheap, light weight, quiet, simple, and effective. The only drawback that I can imagine, is that if I didn't like shooting all the time, I would never get the skills I need to shoot a deer, much less squirrels.:bigsmyl2:

[Arisaka99]

Well, I would like to shoot all the time, but I live in an apt complex, so thats not feasible unless I go to someone's house and use their back yard. I could also go to the range that is offered at one of the parks that is across the water. When I had a kids compound bow, I shot traditionally, in middle school, we had the Genesis bows, and we shot them traditionally, and I got two metals in the competition I got silver in the entire school (6th, 7th, 8th) and silver in my grade. it was at like 20 or 30ft. I have wanted a recurve for a while, I just havent had the cash to get one, or the pull I wanted in a left hand bow.

[MBTcustom]

If you cant see yourself shooting much except to "get ready" for hunting season, I would say that you had better stick to compound bow, and you shouldn't expect very much success, no matter how much time you spend at it.
I apologize, I meant to say "no matter how much money you spend. I edited the post.

I think that in your situation, a recurve might just be the ticket. For some strange reason, people are less freaked out by traditional stick and string. Maybe they are thinking, compound=deer killer recurve=Legolas.

[Arisaka99]

Yeah, and someone said that his buddy was shooting his bow off the roof of his house to get ready for deer season, and his neighbor called the police.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I'm not just impressed with the looks of the bow, I'm impressed that you can draw a 75 pounder. I have a sixty lb all fiberglass double recurve and it is a bugger for me to use. By the way archers, I have a large box of new bow sights with camo paint if anyone is interested . I also have about a gazillion of the little spring loaded buffers that are supposed to help stabilize the arrow.

[Arisaka99]

Spring loaded buffers? got a pic?

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Here are the pics. One buffer is in the plastic bag and one just above the sight

[diehard]

Wow! this is a great thread! Glad I found it. I love archery, and usually get two to three deer each year with a compound bow. Lately the itch to learn on a recurve has become un-scratchable.

I am impressed, encouraged, and inspired.

Thanks Goodsteel!


And Longbow...you have always been high on my cyber hero list for your work with roundball slugs. Seeing your craftsmanship with bows has elevated you to demi-god! in my book(;)

Seriously, I'd like to take on an apprenticeship from you guys.

Maybe soon, I will try my own luck at the self-bow.

Thanks....and happy 4th. Please take a moment (yes, even our Canadian friends) to reflect on just what this day really means....and how far we may have strayed from those ideals.

God bless!

Laurel

[longbow]

diehard:

I have lots of good info on making selfbows I can send you. I do have some info on laminated glass bows but not much.

If you are interested let me know and I will put together a "care package" of info to get you going.

As a note on traditional archery, I just got back from the North American Longbow Safari in Okotoks Alberta. It was as always a great shoot ~ all traditional, all longows, all fun!

If you are interested, it is a wonderful shoot that alternates location in Canada one year and the US the next. It will be in Idaho next year. This shoot has been running since 1983.

Longbow
(now you know where I got the handle)

[nanuk]

Hey Longbow, can you still get Ribtek broadheads? I like them. I bought some magnus, but they were rusty, and when I returned them, the new ones were delaminating.

I found the 160gr ribteks shoot good for my style and draw.

[longbow]

nanuk:

I don't know. I bought a whole whack of them a few years ago as I had to outfit myself, son, daughter and daughter's boyfriend for Longbow Safari so I still have lots. Mine are all 125 gr. or 130 gr. ~ whatever the light ones were.

I like the original style with the curved edges better than the new style with straight edges but they both fly well.

As a comment, I have never shot any big game with them and I have to say that the skeleton ferrule certainly seems to limit penetration in foam targets. Not sure what would happen in a critter but they are not the only broadheads with the skeleton ferrule so I have to think they work, but...

I got my last bunch from Windfeather Archery in Cranbrook B.C. I can check to see if he still has them. I will let you know.

Longbow

[diehard]

Longbow, While I don't want you to go to any trouble, I am very very interested in learning to make a self-bow. We should talk.

Thank you for your offer.

Laurel

[longbow]

diehard:

No problem, I will have info off to you in a day or so.

I have a vehicle giving me a bit of grief so I need to beat it into submission first but I will get a package together and sent shortly.

Longbow

[MBTcustom]

Not trying to but in, but I just wanted to suggest that you could post some of that info here on the thread. I have been kicking around the idea of making a self bow too. A guy at work said he had a beautiful Osage orange stave he would give me, but he never came through. Thinking of buying one or finding a nice tree in the woods and cutting off a heavy limb that I can split into staves.
I am just thrilled that this subject is so well received here! I am planning to make another laminated bow this fall. I will take more pictures and post a detailed build-along if anybody is interested?

[diehard]

Goodsteel,

That sounds like a great idea to me.

I am not surprised that there is so much interest in traditional archery. This is a cast bullet site where most folks are committed to preserving the skills of the recent past and share them willingly with others. Your postings on handcrafted laminated bows are outstanding....and in my opinion, fit right in with the mission of the site.

Besides...many of us here are hunters, plain and simple. Speaking for myself, that means to me that while I enjoy all forms of shooting, I'd attempt to master the the slingshot if it put me in the woods more often, and increased the satisfaction of the hunt.

Hey...slingshot? Another possible thread?:bigsmyl2:

Thanks again for a great thread.

Laurel

[nanuk]

I've got a few books on selfbows, Traditional Bowyers Bibles, Hunting the Osage Bow, and one more, can't remember the name. Also a couple videos.

and there are some good tutorials online

a great pasttime.

start with a board bow.... best to learn tillering on, then progress to selfbacked...

try reading George C Tsoukalas' Board build (http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/boardbowbuildalong.html)!

and Sam Harpers Oak bow build (http://poorfolkbows.com/oak.htm)!

after reading this, you will get an understanding of the tillering process and then can translate to a natural stave

[longbow]

Okay, I will post the links I have to building self bows. Some info is in pdf form so I can't post that. I can e-mail it though it you PM me your e-mail address.

Let me take a look at what I have and I will sort it out. I suppose even the pdf's probably originated on the internet so I may still have sites or links to some.

Give me a few hours and I will put up what I can.

Yeah nanuk Sam Harper's instructions are well laid out. I was going to put something like that together for a friend but found Sam's site and it is really well done so I refer lots of people there.

[nanuk]

Longbow:
most of it, I look at is general info. Read it about 3 times, then go to the lumber yard and look for a straight grained board.

then take and measure your lines and start whittling... once you start to tiller, it all becomes clear

I have a couple board bows that shoot good, and made from wood that is not bow wood.

Hey Goodsteel: are you gonna lay up another Lambow? this time, perhaps you will try with wood lams and no fiberglass. Google Murray Gaskins. He used to sell Hickory Lams for backing! they work great from what I've read.

Dean Torges offered to make me a set of limbs, Osage W/Hickory or Bamboo backing, that I could splice together, but I didn't have the time back then. Kicking my **** ever since

[longbow]

Here they are in no particular order ~ links I have collected both to learn from and to share.

My recommendations are:

- The Essentials of Archery (first link)
- Poorfolk Bows (3rd link) ~ this is Sam Harper's site as nanuk posted
- The Archery Library (6th link) ~ there are lots of old book online here

http://www.stavacademy.co.uk/mimir/archeryessentials.htm
http://www.alanesq.com/longbow/bsb/The-Back-Street-Bowyer-262.pdf
http://poorfolkbows.com/aelb5.htm
http://www.missouritrading.com/bows.htm
http://www.ssrsi.org/sr1/Weapon/archery.htm#Bow%20Building
http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/index.html
http://poorfolkbows.com/
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,3895.0.html
http://www.primitiveways.com/index.html
http://www.stickbow.com/features/index.cfm?feature=selfbows
http://www.vintageprojects.com/archery/Flatbow-plans.pdf
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/traditional-archery/255234-gregs-long-bow-build-long.html
http://www.vintageprojects.com/archery/hunting-bow-plans.pdf
http://www.vintageprojects.com/archery/recurve-bow-plans.pdf

I am with you nanuk, the best teacher is to read some to get the idea then carve away.

Board bows are pretty easy but I usually back board bows because grain is seldom perfect.
Backing can be rawhide, silk, linen, sinew, ripstop nylon, wood veneer, or as I learned from Sam Harper ~ fiberglass drywall tape.

My two recommendations for beginners are to back the bow with ripstop nylon or the fiberglass drywall tape. With ripstop nylon I cut a strip as long as the bow, roll it up like a bandage and soak in about 50/50 water/woodglue then coat the back of the bow with wood glue and roll out the "bandage" pulling it tight and working out any air bubbles. You also have to sgueegee out most of the glue as you don't want it thick.

With flat backed board bows I have never had to tie down or clamp the backing, just tie the end to the limb tip and pull tight as you go then tie the other end. The backing does no lift of the flat board as it will with an uneven stave bow.

The drywall tape is much easier as it is so open, you just roll it on then scrape glue over the surface into the grid and let it set. It does leave an obvious grid on the bow though.

I like to make unbacked bows and most of my stave bows are unbacked but again board bows generally get cut across the grain which is very bad for a bow back.

One other bit of advice is that I far prefer a tiller board than a tiller stick. I use a board with a saddle and a pulley at the bottom so I can lay a bow on the saddle at the handle, hook a rope to the bowstring then stand back and pull the bow to see the limbs bend. Much easier to see the curve and tiller than using a static tiller stick in my opinion.

Wood selection is pretty easy, almost any hardwood will make a bow except for woods like alder, poplar, willow, etc.

I have made good bows from:

- birch
- red oak
- yew
- cherry
- maple
- choke cherry
- chinese waxwood
- hazelnut
- black locust
- juniper

My yew bow is 57 lbs. and I have a red oak bow of 65 lbs. so not lightweights.

So far my favourite woods are yew and black locust. I would really like to get a good osage stave but I am too cheap to pay for it when I have so many other woods available free.

Nanuk, last time I checked Murray Gaskins wasn't in business anymore. Too bad, I wanted some hickory veneer myself. I am sure someone must sell it.

Now, of course after you build the bow, you need a string and your bow isn't likely going to match AMO standards for string length so you better learn to make a Flemish twist string ~ back to The Essentials of Archery link!

Well, I think that is all I have for now. There is a bit of reading material there.

Longbow

[nanuk]

Longbow
thanks for posting all that. great stuff this bow building stuff

I agree with you on boards. you need to know what you are looking for if you do not want to back it.

on one bow I experimented with, I sized the back/sides twice with water/yellow glue about 4-1.
seemed to work good. this was birch. I had it pulling perfect to 26" at 50 lbs (66" NtN) I then pulled it to 27-28-29-30 etc... it exploded at around 32 inches.... I'd guess I was pulling near 75# amazed me how well just some glue on the back helped.

I too use the pulley system, it works great for working the bow after removal of wood. I used a weight scale also to get an idea of weight, as I don't like to pull a bow any heavier than its targetted draw weight

Now, I would usually back a board bow, simply for safety/longevity.. it is not difficult. I like the drywall tape. Also rawhide works pretty good for me also.
I cut some Very wide, and stretched it like crazy when totally soaked.... then stretched it like crazy for gluing. This is an white oak board with tight grain. so far so good.

[Bloodman14]

Guys, a question about bow strings; my wife inherited a Ben Pearson 'Cougar' model bow ( 62", 50#, 28" draw), and we had a question about the string, whether it should be left on the bow under tension, or unstrung. I have always heard that a recurve bow should be unstrung when not in use. What say you bowyers? Also, any info on the 'Cougar' bows; years made, quality, etc.?

[JudgeBAC]

Definitely leave it unstrung when not in use.

[357maximum]

Gorgeous laminated bow. As a flintknapper/ primitive bowyer I KNOW it will be just the first of many. I make self bows of local woods here and you did give us permission to hijack the thread so here ya go.

Raw materials:

Hawethorn staves/red dogwood arrow shoots/colored glass from the old local dump:
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/bowbuilding003-1.jpg

Sassafras staves:
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/bowbuilding017.jpg

My bow bench:
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/bowbuilding018-1.jpg


Some primitive inspiration, LOOK MOM>>>>NO FIBERGLASS:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/stonekill031.jpg
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/stonekill038-1.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/stonekill017.jpg


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/selfbow026.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/selfbow015.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/points016.jpg


If you do decide to go the selfbow route I recommend The Traditional Bowyers Bible volumes 1 thru 4 and to join PaleoPlanet.Com. You can get all you need to know in them 2 places. The bows without fiberglass are almost free. Al they cost is some time afoot and in the shop and a little bit for stain/spar varnish/string material/tools. Learning to make a flemish twist string was actually harder than learning how to make a selfbow for me anyway.

[nanuk]

Gunnerd: if it is a fiberglass backed/bellied bow, then it can remain strung for a long time, but as rule I unstring mine as soon as I'm done with them

a taught string is much easier to cut than a limp one, and the short trip the tips will make can still take out an eye!

[smoked turkey]

Tim you are a gifted individual. I was impressed with your bullet mold, and now I am impressed again with your bow. You are also a very modest person, which is a good trait by the way. Nice job all the way around. Nice deer too!

[Bloodman14]

Nanuk, the bow is a Ben Pearson wooden reflex/recurve bow (laminated).

[W.R.Buchanan]

Tim; Great job on your bow. I'm impressed you can pull a 75LB bow! I would have to start at 20 and work up. Making bows is something that I have deliberately avoided getting into as I already have too many hobbies / projects going. But some day I'd like to anyway. Every once in a while I buy a copy of Traditional Bow Hunter Magazine and usually read it for a month. The whole process of making bows and especially making wooden arrows and a variety of broadheads is something I would like to do. Maybe next year. We have an well used archery range at our Gun Club that I built all of the hay bail tables for last year. Really like to get to use them sometime.

357: I've got to tell you,,, your flint points are very nicely done. Very symetrical and evenly made. I see flint knappers at the gun shows and I've seen alot of points. Why is it that the indians couldn't make points that are as symetrical as what we see today. I don't see the technology of flint knapping having advanced a whole lot in the last 2-3000 years, and those guys had all the time in the world sittng around a fire at night with nothing else to do but chip points. You'd think they would have gone for a little better product? I guess when you hang out with the same tribe for your entire life tech advancement is a hard thing to accomplish. No new blood or ideas so to speak.

What was the green glass for? Scrapers? or more points?

You guys are really something special.

Randy

[waksupi]

I've made several laminated long bows over the years, and they are a very easy project to do. I never did the recurves, as I didn't have a lot of faith in being able to do the curves properly in the press. Also made a lot of sinew backed bows over the years.

I was at our club rendezvous this weekend, and some of my friends were there doing knapping demonstrations. These guys are real masters. The young guy here is an incredible knapper, and was teaching the masters a few tricks they didn't know!

[waksupi]

A couple of our archers, with self bows. This couple shoots yearly at the Longbow Safari.

[357maximum]

357: I've got to tell you,,, your flint points are very nicely done. Very symetrical and evenly made. I see flint knappers at the gun shows and I've seen alot of points. Why is it that the indians couldn't make points that are as symetrical as what we see today. I don't see the technology of flint knapping having advanced a whole lot in the last 2-3000 years, and those guys had all the time in the world sittng around a fire at night with nothing else to do but chip points. You'd think they would have gone for a little better product? I guess when you hang out with the same tribe for your entire life tech advancement is a hard thing to accomplish. No new blood or ideas so to speak.

What was the green glass for? Scrapers? or more points?

You guys are really something special.

Randy


The green glass is for point making. I like to make my giveaway points out of something pretty and I clean the woods up as a byproduct.


As far as the Natives making pretty basic points....they did not need to make them pretty....ugly points still do the job nicely and it bothers ya a bit more to lose a pretty point. I make mine a symmettrical and purdy as I can because I cannot help myself. My first clubby and ugly points shot just as well and I am sure they would kill just as well. EFFECTIVE NEED NOT BE PRETTY.

[MBTcustom]

I'm impressed you can pull a 75LB bow!
So am I honestly! I built the bow and had two weeks to learn to shoot it before bow season. I dang near blew out my shoulder, but I got my deer. Its a lot easier now though. Next time I'll definitely make it a lighter pull.
The good news is that now I can draw a 50Lb bow and hold it for a second or two so I can place my shot.

[nanuk]

....
The good news is that now I can draw a 50Lb bow and hold it for a second or two so I can place my shot.

don't do that with a selfbow, or one not backed/bellied with something very durable

they have a nasty habit of 'splodin' when you do that

[357maximum]

don't do that with a selfbow, or one not backed/bellied with something very durable

they have a nasty habit of 'splodin' when you do that

WHAT????? I have left a selfbow on the tillering stick for 30 minutes trying to induce some "friendly" set. I do a controlled snapshot but I have held them for up to a minute in order to strngthen myself. I am either reading your words waaaay wrong or you be smokin something illegal.

I have "sploded" a couple self bows but they were all due to pushing design limits or overdrying the victim.....I.E MY FAULT


It is far better to
1.read
2.do
3. and then preach


....skipping step#2 ....bad...very bad.

[MBTcustom]

ten-foe there good buddy. I have always heard that a self bow can take a set if it is strung for more than half a day. That was my reasoning for going ahead with fiberglass laminated. In retrospect, I realize that my bow is rarely strung for more than 6 hours at a time anyway so all this theory is a bit of a mute point.
I do want to make a self bow someday, and chip out some stone points for it. That would be the most exhilarating experience to kill a deer with 100% handmade equipment.
I think I'm going to take a break on the recurve this year though. I have a score to settle with some of the swamp deer in Bell Slough. They think they are safe at 50 yards, and last year they were right! This year will be a different story. Gonna bust out the compound again.

[357maximum]

Nothing wrong with that. I still have a stable that includes some fiberglass curves and even one aluminum thing with wheels. When I wanna truly eat I carry the wheels. When I am full, busy or just too darn lazy to do the "after the shot" work I carry equipment that limits the chance of that actually happening. :bigsmyl2:

[MBTcustom]

I thought I would add for those of you who would like to get into traditional archery, but dont want to make one yourself, I recently got to shoot a bow that was branded Samick. Excelent bow for a very low price. I found them all over e-bay for less than $150 in any draw weight your heart could desire. Observe:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Samick-Sage-Bow-Right-Hand-Take-Down-50-hunting-bow-/160802509289?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25709391e9
I have shot one of these, and I honestly don't see how they can do it for that price. I was expecting junk, but it was smooth, it stacked easily, it was natural, and wasn't overly loud even without string silencers. FYI.

[EMC45]

I have a Samick and it IS a good bow. 60lb draw 28in limbs IIRC. I need to shoot it some more. It is a 3 piece with bolt on limbs.

[nanuk]

357Max.... my comments from experience.

if the bow it built to the limits, it can't take a timed stress.

if you overbuild the bow, THEN it can take extra. a Glass backed bow IS overbuilt

My birch bows were not... too short, too narrow for the wood.... Even backed with hide, probably would have collapsed.

I have since learned to take a pretty fast smooth draw.

[MBTcustom]

Nanuk speaks truth. When the bow is built to be as light and short as possible, then it needs special treatment. Kind of a pain, but there is something special about a bow that is built as described, (fragile though it may be). Black Widow recurves are the same way, even though they are fiberglass, if you dont string them just right, they will do a figure eight in your hands. I erred on the side of caution with mine, but an experienced bowyer will build his bows to a certain compromise between durability and performance.

[longbow]

I never unstring my wood bows while shooting or hunting even if I am out all day. I have never had one explode and they have never taken a significant set. Most are not (in my view) "overbuilt" they are typical limb widths and weights for the style of bow. I have one red oak bow that is admittedly "overbuilt" ~ it has about 3" wide limbs at the handle tapering to narrow tips. It is the heaviest draw wood bow I have made at 65 lbs. Most are 50 to 60 lbs.

I have shot my bows in 35 degree C heat to -15 C cold (that's 95 F to 5 F) without any failing or taking serious set.

My favourite is a yew stick I built about 12 years or so ago and I have shot it steady since. In fact I just came back from the provincial traditional championships this last weekend and shot that same bow. If I do my part I can and have scored right along with laminated longbow and recurve shooters.

My first exposure to a real traditional longbow was at the 3rd North American Longbow Safari in Claresholm Alberta. Two fellows I was shooting with had selfbows made by a noted bowyer who's name I won't mention because I am not sure what he says about this but they unstrung their bows after every shot. When I asked why one of them looked at me like I was an idiot and said "...you have to or they will take a set".

Well, I didn't know anything much about wood bows then so figured he must be right.

After I built my first yew bow I decided that if it took a set, too bad, because it seemed to me that any bow worth shooting should be able to stay strung for a day at an archery shoot or hunting. If not it wasn't much good. Well, it is a narrow yew bow, not terribly well crafted and it has very little set.

The next one was a better bow and also has little set. And so it went on. I have had a few bows break but not because they were held at full draw too long.

If the topic is flight bows then that is a little different as everything for flight shooting is run to the limit and it is quite possible that a flight bow is so close to the edge that extended draw time could result in set, chrysaling or failure.

I am thinking a bow built for hunting, all day shoots or war should be able to be left strung and shot all day without issue. I doubt the British longbowmen unstrung their bows after every shot and I am betting the bows lasted more than one day. I wouldn't call that overbuilt, I would call it designed for a purpose.

I have been making and shooting wood bows for about 12 years and find them as durable as my laminated bows (which never get shot anymore).

My thoughts anyway.

longbow

[MBTcustom]

All I know is that the trad-bowyer in Fayetteville Arkansas by the name of Dick Palmer showed me how his favorite stick and string bow had taken a set over time. When I say time, I mean years. I think that's ridiculous to be unstringing a bow after every shot myself, but I was taught to unstring it at night, and whenever it is not expected to be needed. This is the first time I have ever heard of an exploding bow too, but I was referring to the "taking a set" part. I am not saying that if you leave the bow strung for a day, that it will be permanently bent the next day, all I'm saying is that unstringing the bow and not holding it at full draw on a regular basis may mean the difference between a bow that lasts 15 years, and a bow that lasts five years before taking a set. However, this is only what I have been taught and not what I know from personal experience.
Longbow, having clarified my position, I would like to know your thoughts. Have I been taught to flux with wax here, or am I right?

[357maximum]

I leave my hunting self bows strung all day they develop no more set than they had on day 1 of them making the transition from a stick to a bow. Then again I seal mine against moisture......I have to or they would do just as you state, especially the hickory sticks. Using the mass principle my bows are all slightly "overbuilt" by a few ounces. The nice Minnonite fella that taught me how to build selfbows has bows that are older than I am and they remain very useable with about an inch of set. They are strung for 13 hour stretches. Just because there is no glass involved does not mean you have to baby it. It is just a bent stick afterall.

[waksupi]

A self bow generally self destructs from being over drawn. Even when letting experienced primitive archers draw my sinew backed bow, I always make sure there is an arrow on the string, so they don't over draw.

Longbow, I would bet you know Colby Robinson?

[longbow]

My favourite yew stick is not the best crafted bow you will ever see but it shoots well. It is somewhat short at 64 1/2" nock to nock, 1 3/8" wide at the widest spot in the limbs and pulls 57 lbs.

I have shot it regularly on weekends and at shoots since it was built. It has had about 2 1/4" of set its entire life and even so is a quick little bow for wood.

I usually unstring it at lunch time if I stop and of course it is unstrung when not in use at the end of the day, but it stays strung any time it is in use regardless of weather conditions. An unstrung bow is not much use if you want to take a shot (much like an unloaded gun).

I don't leave it strung and laying out in the sun if I am not shooting and I don't leave it strung in a hot car.

So, no Goodsteel you haven't been taught wrong at least by my experience. Unstringing when not in use is common sense and especially if it is exceptionally hot. I have no argument with that.

This logic also applies to laminated bows as well. A friend who now shoots compound brought out his old 50 lb. Ben Pearson Rogue for a traditional day but left it strung and on the front seat of his truck for a while... a bit too long. It delaminated end to end! A tragic end for a classic old bow.

A wood bow can certainly take a set if overdrawn and if left strung for extended periods especially in a hot car. At least a wood bow will not delaminate and could be reflexed back into shooting shape if it did take a serious set.

I know one fellow who never unstrung his glass laminated flatbow. He figured there was more chance of damaging the bow by unstringing and stringing than by leaving it strung and it was left strung for years. He said it lost no noticeable draw weight over several years of being strung. I would not do that just because it seems wrong to me.

I also know a fellow that owned an archery shop for many years that left a recurve strung for several months and he said it only lost about a pound of draw weight.

Having said that, many people string recurves and wide flatbows incorrectly and twist limbs using step through stringing technique. So, maybe it is better to leave the bow (laminated bows that is) strung than use incorrect stringing/unstringing methods. I normally use a stringer for recurves or push/pull (which has its own hazards if you slip!).

If you want to avoid set then wide thin limbs are the way to go with most woods. As 357maximum says some woods are more sensitive than others to moisture and have to be well sealed. Those woods especially benefit from wide "overbuilt" limbs and good sealing. Some like yew are a little less sensitive to moisture. Pretty much all wood bows are going to take some set so to counteract it they can be reflexed at the handle or slightly stiff limb tips can be reflexed some to offset deflex (set) in the main limb.

Not to be contrary but I guess my view is that a bow that explodes or takes a serious set if held at draw too long or if left strung for a day is a poorly designed bow... if it is intended for hunting or all day usage. I see little difference in building a bow to withstand all day usage without damage than I do with proof testing a gun. Why does a gun need to be any stronger than just a little bit more than the heaviest load it should see? Well, I guess because we like to have some safety factor.

Just my thoughts and experience.

YMMV

Longbow

[longbow]

waksupi:

I just posted then saw your post. I am a slow typer and a bit wordy.

Good advice on the overdrawing selfbows! That is one area laminated bows beat selfbows ~ they can take significant overdraw without chrysaling or worse.

I do indeed know Colby. I met him at the first NALS in Clareholm in 1983 . I have shot with Colby many times over the years. I think the last time I saw Colby was at the Comox NALS. He might have been at one TBBC provincial championship after. I can't recall for sure but it has been a few years. My understanding is that he is heavily involved in muzzleloader shooting now and seldom shoots the bow.

I know they lost there archery club land in Golden and were looking for another place.

Last time I talked to him he was planning on ordering a Northwest Trade Musket from Northstar West. Never heard if he got it but I bet he did.

Colby is an exceptional archer and a great guy. If he is as good with a muzzleloader as he is with a bow you guys have some competition on your hands!

I have to guess that you know him from BP shoots. Say hi from Kent when you see him again.

Longbow

[waksupi]

waksupi:

I just posted then saw your post. I am a slow typer and a bit wordy.

Good advice on the overdrawing selfbows! That is one area laminated bows beat selfbows ~ they can take significant overdraw without chrysaling or worse.

I do indeed know Colby. I met him at the first NALS in Clareholm in 1983 . I have shot with Colby many times over the years. I think the last time I saw Colby was at the Comox NALS. He might have been at one TBBC provincial championship after. I can't recall for sure but it has been a few years. My understanding is that he is heavily involved in muzzleloader shooting now and seldom shoots the bow.

I know they lost there archery club land in Golden and were looking for another place.

Last time I talked to him he was planning on ordering a Northwest Trade Musket from Northstar West. Never heard if he got it but I bet he did.

Colby is an exceptional archer and a great guy. If he is as good with a muzzleloader as he is with a bow you guys have some competition on your hands!

I have to guess that you know him from BP shoots. Say hi from Kent when you see him again.

Longbow

I spend quite a bit of time with Colby and Lil at the black powder shoots when they come to Montana. Great fun people! Colby is strictly a smooth bore shooter the past few years, as is his son Ryan. They are both forces to be considered, as they both shoot up equal to the rifle scores. The family still shoots archery, and I am pretty sure they are still involved with the NALS.
Here is a picture of them from about a month ago.

[longbow]

You probably know but Colby was one of the founders of the NALS. He was always an avid archer so I would find it hard to believe he hung up the bow for good.

I was planning to be a regular at the NALS but after the third one I was laid off and had to move up North for a few years, first Kemano (an isolated town a little South of Kitimat ~ a little below the Alaska panhandle) then Yellowknife NWT so a little far to get the the NALS.

I have made it to a few of the Canadian NALS shoots but not one American one since I have been back ~ mostly due to lack of time and money. I was planning on going to the NALS in Pocatello Idaho this year but my wife planned a trip to Hawaii at the end of June to half way through July so no NALS this year. Not complaining about going to Hawaii but I will miss the NALS!

We did make it to the Okotoks NALS last year and had a great time. I shot with a fellow from Pocatello coincidentally (Jay Loftin). Nice guy that shot a wood bow too so we had a good time talking and shooting.

I guess this is drifting off topic a bit so I better shut down on memory lane!

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

This is a great thread. Keep it going,,, I'm learning alot.

Randy

[mpbarry1]

You never cease to amaze me. Is there anything you can't build? Nice work! I bought a Dala bow from 3 rivers archery.. Its cheating but i need all the help i can get!

[iomskp]

A couple of year ago I was visiting the North Island of New Zealand on a shooting trip and I picked up a small hard cover book titled How to make a Recurve Bow and Matched Arrows lots of pictures and descriptions I keep telling myself I got to do that one day, after seeing some of the great work you fellows have done I think it is about time I got started

[MBTcustom]

Git-er-Done!!!!

[357maximum]

A couple of year ago I was visiting the North Island of New Zealand on a shooting trip and I picked up a small hard cover book titled How to make a Recurve Bow and Matched Arrows lots of pictures and descriptions I keep telling myself I got to do that one day, after seeing some of the great work you fellows have done I think it is about time I got started



Need some inspiration? how about some tutiledge..... scroll down to primitive bows and have a loosee.

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/

If you need a kick in the rear...sorry cannot reach you from here.:groner:


Have a good day,
Mike

[MBTcustom]

Send him an e-boot!

[Gunor]

Sorry to ask a dumb question on recurve or long bows.

I think I have a long draw - 31".

Most of the bows I see are rated at @ 28". If I buy one - what about my draw length?

Sorry - I did not want to start looking at other forums

Geoff in Oregon

[longbow]

Geoff:

No your question isn't dumb but I have to ask ~ how did you determine your draw length?

I ask because many people who have shot compound but not traditional bows draw longer with the compound than they normally would with a traditional bow.

The 28" draw length is an AMO standard which was to suit an average size person and I think to set a baseline for comparison. So basically, the bows are tillered to produce their rated draw weight at 28". Most laminated bows can easily be overdrawn by a couple or more inches but the draw weight goes up of course ~ usually about 3 lbs. per inch depending on bow weight and length.

I think (don't know for sure) that most recurves and longbows can be drawn beyond the 28" without significant tiller issues or stacking at least by a couple of inches. Short bows and recurves that have the tips uncurl at a certain draw length will "stack" if drawn further. Stacking within reason shouldn't hurt the bow but it is uncomfortable to shoot.

What happens is that when drawn past a certain design point, draw weight per inch increases more rapidly creating the feeling of hitting a "wall".

Anyway, 31" is a long draw unless you are very tall or have really long arms. I am 6'-2" and draw about 27" with my traditional bows.

Most traditional shooters lean into the bow a bit sort of like a shotgun shooter while most compound shooters take a more erect target stance. Also, most traditional shooters anchor at the corner of their mouth or on their cheek while most compound shooters again use a more target like anchor point under their chin or along the jaw bone. The traditional anchor point results in an inch or two less draw length normally.

If you have a true 31" draw, it is long and arrow spine can be an issue with long arrows so that is another thing to think about. Other than that, you will have to take into account that at roughly 3 lbs./inch past 28" would increase draw weight by about 9 lbs. so if you want a 60 lbs. bow you will actually be looking at bow of around 50 lbs. at 28 inches.

Again, 3" of overdraw should not be a problem for most laminated bows but longer is better and watch for stack. Try the bow if you can to be sure it feels right.

If you are talking wood bows, it is a different matter as wood bows can be damaged or broken by overdrawing. The wood is not as tough as fiberglass and can take a set, chrysal or even break if overdrawn.

I guess I will use my previous comment on "overbuilding" as back up here. If a wood bow is designed and built to just not quite break then overdrawing by 3" could be enough to destroy the bow. If long and wide there is much less likelihood of serious damage occurring.

Some of my wood bows have been overdrawn by 2" or 3" and have not suffered for it but it is best to have a wood bow tillered for the draw length of the archer.

I hope that helps and makes some sense.

Longbow

[Bloodman14]

How does one measure draw length?

[MBTcustom]

Set a tape measure on a surface about shoulder high.
Pull the tape out to 35"
Place the end of the tape on your Adams apple
stretch your fingers down the tape and pinch it between your third fingers
Your draw length is the distance (comfortably) from your adams apple to the tips of your third fingers.
I just did this just now to double check if I had it right, and it bulls-eyed my draw length
The best way is to traipse into any bowshop and let them test your drawlength with that special arrow.

[Multigunner]

Guys, a question about bow strings; my wife inherited a Ben Pearson 'Cougar' model bow ( 62", 50#, 28" draw), and we had a question about the string, whether it should be left on the bow under tension, or unstrung. I have always heard that a recurve bow should be unstrung when not in use. What say you bowyers? Also, any info on the 'Cougar' bows; years made, quality, etc.?

Self Bows will usually take a set if left strung, and laminated bows can take a set or lose draw strength without noticably taking a set.

Scythian and Mongol horse archers always carried two bows, one strung ready for action and the other left unstrung, they alternated which to carry strung during the days ride.

Modern pulley type bows may not take a set, but I can't say for sure, I have one but never got in the habit of using it. I prefer my solid fiberglass Black Fox self bow and the fine laminated recurve left to me by a young lady who died in an auto accident.

I sometimes leave the self bow strung back wards, to try to take out some of the set it took many years ago when I left it strung for many months.
I was able to correct most of the set, but theres still some.
I've been considering leaving it strung backwards in the sun on a few hot days to see if that helps.

A good modern synthetic string should never stretch to any noticable degree.

As for draw length, I started out using a homemade longbow and "Cloth yard" (37")shafts. When I transitioned to the Black Fox with store bought arrows first thing I did was over draw the bow and pin my hand to the grip by driving the field point through the web of my thumb.
It took awhile to get used to the shorter draw of common modern arrows.

[dualsport]

Hey, I have one of those Black Fox bows. Now I gotta go get it out of the shed and play with it. IIRC it's 45# and short. Hard to draw. If you guys want to try something different, find an older Bear Whitetail II compound and shoot it instinctive. It has a good shelf, like a real recurve has. Mine's maybe 26 years old, going strong still. Re-cable and string a few times. Anyway, the beauty of it is it is compatible with instinctive shooting but the convenience of a compound. It's always ready to shoot and light for what it is. No sights. That's not archery. I got a compliment from Ted Nugent on my camo job on my Bear and he autographed it for me. Now it's a family heirloom.

[Multigunner]

Hey, I have one of those Black Fox bows. Now I gotta go get it out of the shed and play with it. IIRC it's 45# and short. Hard to draw.

The solid fiberglass bows don't have as much snap to them as the laminated or even proper wooden self bows of the same draw weight.

My Black Fox is 54" and is marked as 40-45 lb at 28" draw.

The laminated bow I mentioned has a much lighter pull at 35 lb but gives noticably higher velocity than the Black Fox.

I cleaned up the Black Fox awhile back, using white wall tire restorer fluid to clean the white rubber grip. The grip has held up remarkably well considering how long I've had this bow. I bought this Black Fox in the late 60's, so I've had it for half a century.

One things for sure, I need never worry about the bow getting wet or scratches on the non existent finish.

This reminds me of the Hindu Steel Bow. The tempered spring steel bows did not give anywhere near the velocity that the sinew backed bows used by their Muslim enemies, but the Hindus chose steel because it was unaffected by humidity , rain, insects, or age. The bows could be stockpiled in an armory for decades or generations with little care given them and issued when needed.

[longbow]

Goodsteel is right as a starting point to find draw length.

Another option is to take a dowel or slat of wood about 32" to 36" long, place one end against your sternum then reach out with both hands and extend your fingers pinching the stick, mark the stick at the finger tips (or have someone do it for you since it is hard to reach, pinch and mark all at once) and that is about the longest your draw length should be.

As I mentioned earlier, many traditional archers lean into the bow a bit which can shorten draw length and the final style of anchoring will also affect draw length.

If you have a long draw length and draw 2" or 3" beyond 28" you need a stiffer spined arrow to accommodate the extra length. If you are shooting a 60 to 70 lb. bow and 31" draw length you would need about 80 to 90 lbs. arrow spine.

Conversely, if you have a very short draw length then a lighter spined arrow is in order.

A proper spined arrow will do more for good flight and accuracy than the most expensive bow.

A poor arrow (badly made, damaged or wrong spine) will not fly well off the best bow nut a good arrow will fly well from a mediocre bow.

Longbow

PS: Stringing a wood bow backwards can be dangerous as the belly grain can lift. There isn't a lot of belly tension at brace height but you are better off to heat using steam or a paint stripper and gently bend reflex back into the limbs then let the bow cool while holding in place.

[nanuk]

heed longbow's advice on stringing a wood bow backwards

wood that is compressed can simply come apart when bent the other way....


for draw length, the easiest is to got to a bow shop.

in lieu of that, I used a dowel and marked inches on it... pretend you are pulling a bow and have someone watch closely.

as longbow said, most trad archers lean in ... I'm 5'10" and have slightly longer arms and dray 26-26.5 inches...

as an aside, of you use wooden arrows, consider trying some about 3-4 inches LONGER than you draw... there is something magic about longer arrows, they just seem to slide around the grip.

you can use a wide gripped bow, 32" arrows and they will fly straight, and HEAVY arrows are the way to go out of a wood bow... IMNSHO

[Bloodman14]

My draw length is 36"! I am 6' and 210lbs., and shoot stock length arrows. I like the Gold Tip brand.

[longbow]

Nanuk brings up a good point I forgot to mention though arrow spine hasn't been a main topic so far.

Modern bows are "center shot" and have reduced riser thickness at the arrow rest for clearance requiring less bend in the arrow to clear.

Most wood bows have either no cutout or very little requiring the arrow to bend farther to go around the handle which means the arrow has to be lighter spined. You can lighter spine by buying lighter spined shafts or by leaving the shafts a bit long.

For those not familiar with arrow spine, the arrow bends in a half sine wave as it goes around the bow handle. The stiffness (spine) of the arrow has to suit the draw length, draw weight, speed and string height of the bow. I bet you didn't know our ancestors were good mathematicians. Well, I doubt they knew the math but they certainly figured out what it took to make good arrows.

An arrow that is spined too light will "swim" to the target and one that is spined too heavy will push the nock end left when it leaves the bow. An arrow that has correct spine will bend when the string loads it and go right around the handle then "swim" a short distance before stabilizing.

Now why am I still talking? A video is worth a thousand words (or more):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzWrcpzuAp8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96KGWC0PB6s
http://www.meta-synthesis.com/archery/archery.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGNslUNBrEM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=aNI9BG87qcI

Even off a compound:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWFb9bkqTpg&feature=related

It is hard to believe those go where they are pointed isn't it?

Back to Nanuk's comment.

I usually use arrows spined about 5 to 10 lbs. under bow weight and about 2" to 3" over length when shooting my wood bows. This makes for lighter spine to allow clearance around the wide handle and it also allows you to tune a bit by shortening the arrow if it is too light a spine.

Longbow

[longbow]

Gunnerd:

You must have very long arms and/or anchor at your jaw to have a draw length of 36".

The old English longbowmen pulled back to their ear and so had very long draw lengths but that was for volley fire at long range.

You have a long draw length for sure!

Longbow

[waksupi]

I've never seen a standard arrow shaft over 32", and I have bought them by the hundred over the years. I just double checked on a box of Port Orchard shafts I have here. Gold Tip doesn't offer a 36" shaft. I suspect Gunnard had a typo.

[longbow]

Look I found more helpful "stuff":

http://www.huntersfriend.com/draw-length-weight.htm
http://www.huntersfriend.com/drawlength.htm

[dualsport]

I've been fascinated by bows and arrows since I was a boy, hunting along the river with my beagle. I had one arrow, spent most of my time looking for it as I tried aerial shots a lot. There is something magical about it, don't know why but you guys are making me want to get back into it. I hunted with a recurve for years, back quiver and all. Still have my arrow making kit out in the rafters. I think I'll dust that box off and string up my takedown recurve. Looks like a Martin but earlier, two screws each end instead of one. The best and most fun hunts I ever had were with a bow, traditional style.

[357maximum]

Dualsport is dead on. I spent my youth with a longbow/recurve in hand. It did the deed as well as any firearm and it is silent. I like my guns but they always give me the I AM CHEATING feeling. After taking one with 2 sticks and a stone last fall even them metal broadheads and fiberglass coated sticks kinda feel like cheating. [smilie=s:

I just roughed out a black locust selfbow that will be finished into a pyramid bow as soon as it is dry enough. I also harvested some ash arrowshafts and the bottom of an old roman cleanser bottle. All these things came from within 12 feet of one another in my back 20. If I can get a deer to stand in the right spot, all the tools and the meat will have come from the same 144 square feet of mother earth. :shock:

[waksupi]

Here are a couple bows I made some years ago. The top one is a laminated maple bow, 60# @28".
The second is a sinew backed Osage Orange bow, 47#. This was actually one of my rejects. I used the long loin sinew, rather than the leg sinew. The long sinew threads tend to separate from the bow when cured in the sun, which is why it is heavily wrapped with more sinew. The short leg sinew, although more work, is better for bow backing.
I make my own Flemish twist strings. For some reason, I have a served nock point on the long bow, and a clamp on, on the primitive bow! Gotta fix that!
The arrows show both commercial nocks, and self-nocks.

[waksupi]

Over the years, my business took me into museum vaults across the western United States, and Canada. I have examined hundreds of original Indian bows, and found very few that were backed.
The reason they survived hard use so well, was from the draw style of pinching the arrow nock, rather than taking a "hook", like most European style archers (this includes the majority of us) do. With the pinch style shooting, the draw is self limiting, as to the strength of the archers finger grip on the arrow, permitting the arrow to leave the bow, before critical stacking was achieved.
The Asian style of shooting with a thumb ring permitted a stronger hold, but is still more closely related to the pinch draw, than the hook. Considering the Asian bows were generally of sinew and horn, with a very thin wood core, they could take a considerable draw, and had good speed. The wood it their bows was more a base for the horn and sinew, than for strength.
Just rambling.....

[MBTcustom]

I have really wanted to try the thumb ring style of shooting, but it seems so bass-ackward from what I am used to. I tried to make a thumb ring, but it was just so-so and not near enough sauce for my 75 pounder. I think that pinching the string in any way, demands a lighter draw weight.

[Bloodman14]

I just double-checked my draw length using the Adam's apple-to-fingertip method, and it is precisely 36 inches. I went to Bass Pro Shops in Springfield, and had the guy there check me with their measuring arrow, and he said "28 inches". So, who is correct?

My Gold Tip arrows were cut to 28 1/2'', sorry, but my Redhead Carbon Fury shafts are 32 1/2". I do use a release, and anchor at my ear (thumb behind my earlobe).

Does this help?
Thanks, guys.

[357maximum]

Nice sticks Ric:D The flemish string took me more effort than my first bow...i still struggle with strings a bit.

Gunnerd : if I ever ran into a man with a 36 inch draw I would tie his arms together and run away.....I would place my bet on 28. I am 5'10 and have longish arms for my build...I draw 27" with a traditional bow. I also draw 27 with a compound but I used a kisser button in the corner of my mouth with the index finger brushing my nose. I shoot 3 fingers under with all my sticks.

[dualsport]

Anybody use douglas fir for arrow shafts? I put away a 2x4 stud off a job 25 yrs. ago and it's still in my garage. Unusually straight and clear grain is why I snagged it but can't remember if I was gonna make arrows or a bow out of it. It's pretty much seasoned, I could rip it on a table saw and make a bunch of shafts.

[longbow]

Fir shafts are reasonably popular here. I have only had one set and they were not very good... kinda brittle. Maybe the wood had been dried too much or something but I wasn't happy with mine. I don't think my experience is typical though.

I have been shooting yellow cedar for several years now but my supply has dried up.

By the way, nice work waksupi! Those are good looking bows and arrows.

357maximum ~ I have a method for making Flemish strings that I prefer to the "traditional method of laying tag ends into the standing string. I basically make two or three strand rope then splice like colours together to form loops (I usually use three colours). There is no untwisting the body of the string this way while forming the second loop and I find it much easier to form loops.

An internet buddy talked me into putting an article together for Backwoodsman which I have done but not sent yet. I sent him some photos and descriptions and he managed to put a string together from my instructions so said I should write the article.

If you are interested I will send a copy to you.

Lots of people shooting three fingers under now but I guess I am old fashioned, I like the traditional Mediterranean hold with one over and two under... but then I shoot self nocks too so need some arrow control. Self nocks can be shot three fingers under but they do not snap onto the string so you have to be careful.

Longbow

[waksupi]

I believe it was Kramers who were making a compressed lodgepole pine shaft, that was supposed to be pretty good. Limited production rate though, and I have no idea if they are still available.
I have made a lot of natural shoot arrows over the years, for museum display use. It takes a lot of work to get them straight, and keep them straight.
I had bought shafts from Rose City Archery for years. If they are still in business, their seconds are cheaper, although some will show some pitch. I haven't ordered for years, as once I started footing arrows, I can make a hundred shafts last a looooong time.
The arrows for Dances With Wolves were all cedar, for a bit of trivia.

[357maximum]

LONGBOW-
I have shot 3 under for about 32 years now...I would say I am stuck with my method. No one really told me to do it that way. I just did it that way when I first picked up that silly little red recurve that I terrorized my neighborhood critters with until I got a better red recurve that no longer just stung the critters. [smilie=1:.

I would very much appreciated the info...I will pop ya my email...THANK YOU

The first string I attempted looked like macrame' via epileptic...not pretty. I can get one made now...but I really slow and they are not all that pretty. My bowyer mentor has tried and tried...he tells me I am hopeless. Do you know how hard it is to frustrate an elder Minnonite gentlemen.:o

Dualsport-

Until I started harvesting silky and red dogqwood shoots for arrows I always shot them $pliced yeller pine hex shafts. They are about as good as ya can get in my opinion and they TUFF for wood. I even had a negative pressure dip tube that I soaked them in with thinned down lakkkker to make them harder and heavier. If you made a wide pyramind design you would be surprised what that dougfir board could getcha.

[waksupi]

I wish there was good dogwood around here. The stuff we have is little stunted twisty stuff. I usually end up with vine maple, or nine bark. Both are a pain in the butt to make arrows from. I have made the Salish style arrows from reed with a hardwood footing and nock, but do not like shooting them. They are so light, it is nearly like dry firing a bow.

[357maximum]

Well darn Ric...if you only knew someone that tends a couple of "arrow plots" of the stuff and knows what copicing does for arrow production.:kidding:


What spine range you need? I have several buckets of shafts...they have been picked over pretty good and they are all pretty light like < 45 and such. I will harvest more after the leaves fall off though. [smilie=2:

[MBTcustom]

Hey waksupi, I took a closer look at those bows and arrows of yours (very nice by the way). I am curious about the fur ring you have on the red fletched arrows?
Also how did you dye the feathers?
I need to start dyeing my feathers to brighter colors. I use aluminum shafts and glue native Arkansas feathers to them. (I just dont know if a wood arrow would hold up to the yellowjacket) anyway, $90 per dozen is a steep price for a bunch of shafts and I shot at a squirrel yesterday and lost another one.

[longbow]

There used to be a couple of suppliers of compressed cedar shafts. The old Forgewood shafts were one but if memory serves they just compressed a "footing" by leaving extra wood at the pile end. There was also an outfit that compressed boards of cedar then cut squares and doweled them. I have never tried those and don't think they are still available.

I didn't know the Kramers were making compressed pine shafts but that should work similar to the cedar.

We used to see lots of Chundoo shafts here when Port Orford cedar was scarce. The Chundoo shafts here I believe were pine but Chundoo also refers to sitka spruce. They made good arrows. In fact I was just given a dozen "vintage" select Chundoo shafts last weekend at the provincial traditional championships by a fellow that used to run a company in Northern BC that made Chundoo pine shafts. I have not seen Chundoo pine in many years. I think his was the only local company and they shut down several years ago.

I've tried Hexpine but wasn't impressed.

Made a few shafts from local black locust shoots and they are tough and heavy but they are hard to straighten and keep straight. At least I found them hard to straighten. I usually burnish arrow shafts to straighten them out and after they tend to stay quite straight but the locust didn't respond to burnishing. Maybe too hard or I wasn't convincing enough.

Like waksupi, I started footing shafts many years ago and replenished my broken Port Orford cedar arrows that way (I don't throw anything out!). I used a short single fishtale splice but found it was slow and tedious (I'm lazy) so about 15 years ago I made a D bit and jig to drill a tapered hole same as in a tip at 10 degrees inclusive. Just drill a short length of arrow shaft or hardwood for a footing then use the regular taper tool for the broken shaft and glue together. Not as nice looking as the fishtale but just as effective and very quick.

I made some and gave them away. I thought about marketing it but as mentioned, I'm lazy (and busy) so never did. I see there is a German company that is selling a fancy version of the same thing but it is a bit pricey. I am sure lots of people have come up with the same idea.

Waksupi, have you ever tried wild rose? It is supposed to make a good shaft. I cut some but they were a little small after drying and I never got back around to it again.

Longbow

[waksupi]

Jim, thanks for the offer, but I have enough cedar shafts to last the rest of my life. I don't need the natural shafts any more, since I'm not selling them.

Tim, there was a traditional archery supply here locally, that I bought the dyed fletching from. I'm sure plain old Rit dye would work just fine. It was kind of nice going into a bow shop with a hundred bows, thousands of arrows, and not a compound bow in sight. I'm sorry the guy moved.
By the way, you would find the cedar arrows much more durable than aluminum, and definitely better than carbon.

The fur is just a strip of rabbit fur, glued at the front of the fletching. It serves a couple purposes. First, it covers the front of the quill sinew wrap, helping to protect the wrap from wear. It also protects the finger from wear, as with an Indian bow, you are shooting off the finger.
When the arrow is shot, the fur lays back pretty much flat with the fletching, but when it strikes, you see a bright little flash of white. It helps you see where your arrow was placed, and also helps you find any that have missed the target, and are in the ground. A tracer, as it were. The fur can be any color of course, but should be bright.
One last advantage, they just look cool!

Kent, I have looked at the wild rose, and like you, found it too short, thin, and light. And thorny! For me, it was never a good choice for an arrow. I suspect it was a last choice for an Indian.

[357maximum]

Wild rose shafts are good shafts if you make them out of the big thorned multiflora species. The river rose with a million little thorns is worthless. With multiflora shafts you have to really control how fast they dry....read that GO SLOWLY. They straighten out well with direct heat and they stay that way if you get it plasticised just right. They are a fast recovering arrow that acts alot like bamboo shafts.

Actually my favorite natural shaft is tonkin bamboo. I picked up 6 dozen of the china tiger bamboo shafts and they work well. If you select the right bamboo garden stakes you can get some excellent arrows that way too if you put the time into them.

[MBTcustom]

By the way, you would find the cedar arrows much more durable than aluminum, and definitely better than carbon.
When you say that, are you remembering how heavy this bow is? I would love to shoot wood out of this, but what I was reading lead me to believe that it would be a fussy, messy, tedious way to shoot. Constantly having to bend and straiten the shafts, and any moisture the spine goes all muddy, etc etc. Do I have it wrong? I have admired the wooden shafts at Dick Palmers for years, true works of functional art, but I don't want to be shooting them 50 times a weak.
Not only that, but I assumed that I would have a hard time getting a wood shaft with stiff enough spine for 75#s.

[waksupi]

When you say that, are you remembering how heavy this bow is? I would love to shoot wood out of this, but what I was reading lead me to believe that it would be a fussy, messy, tedious way to shoot. Constantly having to bend and straiten the shafts, and any moisture the spine goes all muddy, etc etc. Do I have it wrong? I have admired the wooden shafts at Dick Palmers for years, true works of functional art, but I don't want to be shooting them 50 times a weak.
Not only that, but I assumed that I would have a hard time getting a wood shaft with stiff enough spine for 75#s.

It shouldn't be hard to find a stiff enough shaft. I have shot them from a compound at a much higher draw weight.
Cedar shafts tend to stay straight, once they have been sealed, and straightened. I would urge you to try a dozen.

[longbow]

Goodsteel:

I used to shoot 70 lb. longbow and have always shot wood. I had a friend down in Spokane that shot an 80+ lb, longbow and one fellow that had a 98 lb. bow that he got wood shafts for ~ those were a little more trouble to find.

Don't forget that back in the medieval days the Brits shot war bows of well over 100 lbs. and shot wood shafts at long draw lengths (probably large diameter shafts though).

Good straight grained shafts of any decent wood will stay pretty straight once straightened out. I used to use heat and gently bend any warps out but found the shafts tended to re-warp after. I now burnish the wood to compress the high side and once straightened they stay very straight.

I use a deer antler tine with a bit of hook in it like this:

- spin the arrow to see if straight
- if not sight down it to find the high spot
- rest the shaft on something solid with high spot up
- flex the shaft down to compress the high spot
- rub firmly over the compressed high spot with something hard ~ antler tine, cup hook on a stick, even a field point
- check and re-work to remove all bends
- once shafts are straightened this way they tend to stay straight

It takes a bit of feel but done correctly, you will not damage the shaft and can take out quite short nasty bends. A really stubborn shaft may require heat and burnishing but that is unusual in my experience and very unusual for reasonably straight grained wood.

Hmmm, I had a box of yellow cedar leftovers that the fellow that was making yellow cedar shafts gave me to sort through and take what I wanted. I am sure there were shafts to about 90 lbs. in there but I gave it back after pilfering the 50-55's. I can check with him if you want. If he has any left they are terrific shafts.

Okay then, slow brain this morning, I just took a look at Rose City Archery:

http://rosecityarchery.com/POC_Shafts.htm

They have heavy spine weights in POC. If they have them I suspect others do too. 70 to 80 lbs. is not unusual for a traditional bow. I don't pull those weights anymore but young guys do.

Longbow

[longbow]

Here is something that might be helpful:

http://www.stickbow.com/features/index.cfm?feature=arrowmaking

Their straightening section shows the cuphook method.

[MBTcustom]

You shouldn't have shown me that! I was all set to hunt with the compound this fall, then you go putting all these ideas in my head!
Whats wrong with me?!? I keep reminding myself how primitive and inferior the re-curve is, but.....I.....just.....cant.....help....it. Its as addicting as cocaine I tell ya!
I don't know where I went wrong. I used to delight myself shooting my compound and busting Ritz crackers at 50 yards, but now, I get all giddy if I hit a paper plate at that same distance with the re-curve. I'm doomed I tell ya! Doomed!
Next, you'll probably find me crouched in a corner chipping away at broken rocks and glass............

[357maximum]

I'm doomed I tell ya! Doomed!
Next, you'll probably find me crouched in a corner chipping away at broken rocks and glass............


My gawd you make that sound like a bad addictive affliction lifestyle changing thing.

OOOGA BOOGA:bigsmyl2:

Did I show you the new house I am buying, heres the front porch?:popcorn:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/glasspoints001.jpg

[MBTcustom]

I like it! especially those lawnchairs you got there.

[357maximum]

:hijack:


Yep..you do not have to worry about the neighbors stealing them chairs. The neighbor guy does concern me a bit though.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/gollum.jpg

[waksupi]

Are you Fred, or Barney?

[357maximum]

Well Wilma is cuter so I guess you can call me Fred.:Fire:

[MBTcustom]

That neighbor you mention, did he recently do a geico commercial?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvXqm0RdJms

[waksupi]

Betty is hotter. I bet you like Ginger, too.

[357maximum]

Ric

I was an adolescent when that show was in syndication...I never chose one over the other.;)

Just like ol Bob there...I said ...I will take one of each please.:smile:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/MaryAnnGilliganGinger.jpg

[nanuk]

357maximum ~ I have a method for making Flemish strings that I prefer to the "traditional method of laying tag ends into the standing string. I basically make two or three strand rope then splice like colours together to form loops (I usually use three colours). There is no untwisting the body of the string this way while forming the second loop and I find it much easier to form loops.

An internet buddy talked me into putting an article together for Backwoodsman which I have done but not sent yet. I sent him some photos and descriptions and he managed to put a string together from my instructions so said I should write the article.

If you are interested I will send a copy to you.


Longbow

Longbow, I'd be interested in a copy

I made my strings with loops on each end, but started to think the lower knot was the way to go....

[nanuk]

up here, the locals say Rose, Chokecherry, Saskatoon Berry, and birch shoots work well

and after being told they don't need to be that straight, only balanced, I tried some crooked ones...

they work.

take your crooked shaft, mount a point and spin it on the point. adjust the bend until it spins smooth. Cut a nock on it, and shoot it. You'll be surprised.

[nanuk]

on point on nocks

I tried this: bought a set of small diamond files (Riffling Files?) and using them I filed out nocks that "Snap" on to my serving just enough they don't fall off.
then serve the nock with some sinew for a bit of strength... they work as good as snap nocks and look better.

[Multigunner]

I have a dozen or so fairly straight Viburnum (?) branches I cut many years ago intending to use to make a few arrows. These were intended for use as motion picture props rather than shooting since a friend was making a sword and sorcery indy film.

I never got around to working on those shafts, so I figure they must be well seasoned by now.The unpeeled branches are from 5/8" to 3/4" thick.I used thinner branches when making clothyard shafts many years ago, and they did not hold their straightness that well, but otherwise proved very sturdy.

[longbow]

I have only tried natural shafts with black locust and rose.

The black locust shoots were about the right size and taper at from about 5/16" to 3/8" and reasonably straight.

I tied them together to dry and most came out okay. Obviously they were not identical in diameter and taper and they were a little "kinky" but, as Nanuk says, if they spun balanced on the point they flew as well as doweled shafts.

I was quite surprised that they flew as well as they did but there you go.

I used the ~3/8" diameter at the pile end and the ~5/16" diameter at the nock end. Self nocked with a 1/8" rattail file. I have since made a filing jig that works quite well though my self nocks are loose on the string. Since I use Mediterranean hold I just lightly pinch the arrow and have no problems. Some like them to be a snug fit but I got used to speed nocks long ago so this is similar.

Nanuk, nothing wrong with a bowyer's hitch on the bottom and loop at the top, that works too. I just found that the bowyer's hitch would occasionally slip a bit so have gone back to two loops. Spare strings are often made long with only one loop though so they will fit several bows and put on with bowyer's hitch at the bottom if needed (not often).

Send me your e-mail address and I will send a copy of the write up.

Longbow