Why??

[Arisaka99]

Why do glocks need special parts in order to fire them under water? Ive heard the they function fine underwater, but then I heard that they need spring cups. Why is that?

[tek4260]

Firing underwater?? Surely you jest!

[mroliver77]

Ooops!

[mroliver77]

Chris, "they" say that there is no stupid question. You're at the boundaries Son!:kidding:

I doubt you could even shoot a Henweigh under water.
Jay

[longuner]

they are needed to keep water out , this allows for a full power strike on primer...

they do shoot under water!!!!

[Arisaka99]

Yes, they do in fact shoot underwater, and it would be for a backup once I shoot my speargun... The sharks around hatteras and Panama City are pretty big... and becoming much more bold...

[randyrat]

Don't do it though, the pressure will tear you up. Just sticking your hand under water and shooting is very dangerous. First thing to blow is your ear drums and/or your internal organs, if your under water. Very bad.

I wouldn't feel right if I didn't add this warning. You can't just grab a Glock and shoot it under water, well you can if you want severe body damage.
OK I'll lighten up a bit, after reading more. But, It is still very dangerous, there are a lot of "what ifs" Like the wrong gun shot under water by some young fellow who knows nothing about it and it blows his hand off.

[subsonic]

Have to use fmj too. Hollow points will expand in the barrel. Plenty of youtube of this being done.

[randyrat]

Lots of videos on this. I still have heard of people getting hurt real bad

[bhn22]

To answer your original question, water in the firing pin (striker) channel can soften the firing pin impact, causing reliability issues. Down't forget the waterproof ammo!

[Geraldo]

Yes, they do in fact shoot underwater, and it would be for a backup once I shoot my speargun... The sharks around hatteras and Panama City are pretty big... and becoming much more bold...

Most of the shark bites down here are on surfers. Sitting on the board, waiting for a wave, dangling feet in the water. Most of them aren't huge sharks, or even big ones. My wife knows a guy who got bitten and he didn't see the shark, just felt a bump on his leg, then a few seconds later pain. So first, you would have to see a shark before it sees you to be able to use anything, and if you miss on the first try you'll need a trauma dressing and a tourniquet more than a "backup".

I can see the new IPSC stage: standing in a pool with SCUBA gear, using coral reef cover, the shooter will draw and engage three moving shark targets. Shooter will be penalized for any hits on friendly fish or fellow divers. :kidding:

[klcarroll]

Yeah! ......You just never know when you might run into a Cod packin' heat!! :2gunsfiring_v1:


kent

[Wayne Smith]

Down't forget the waterproof ammo!

Don't worry about that. I have twice accidently put loaded rounds in my Lyman vibrating polisher with water, soap and ceramic media. One ran all night. One was 44-40 BP, the other was a 500 S&W. With the soap in the water - both fired next trip to the range! I'm satisfied my normally loaded rounds are waterproof.

[Arisaka99]

Don't do it though, the pressure will tear you up. Just sticking your hand under water and shooting is very dangerous. First thing to blow is your ear drums and/or your internal organs, if your under water. Very bad.

Then how can people use powerheads? Same concept, but its attached to a spear.

[cptinjeff]

I've shot a power head in.357 under the water and it is no worse than shooting above water without hearing protection.

[subsonic]

While normally Loaded ammo is quite water resistant, you should purchase sealed mil-spec ammo if you plan to submerge it repeatedly. Primers and bullets will be sealed with laquer. You can purchase this sealant for use when reloading and I would bet that cast boolits would be well sealed due to the lube. You would need to seal primers...

[MtGun44]

1911s work fully normally under water, apparently if the barrel is filled with water it works
best. Don't know about ears, but some of the people that did it were standing chest deep,
no particular issues on the body. MIGHT hurt your ears.

Bill

[Arisaka99]

I cant imagine using a 12ga powerhead!! But they say all you need is a .357 powerhead..

[Multigunner]

Well if what I've read about this is true, firing underwater was part of the testing done on all the pitols submitted to the USN SEAL, the glock failed this and I think some other tests, possibly sand in the recoil spring .

Anyway the Plastic recoil spring guides were likely the major problem, and Glock developed a insert of some sort to allow the pistol to be fired underwater without malfunctions.

I think one part of the test was the pistol being dropped in surf, with water borne sand getting inside.

A plastic spring guide just doesn't sound to be very durable, but a similar plastic guide was developed for the M9 pistol, supposedly to reduce malfunctions due to wind borne sand.
Seems to me that a steel spring guide with ferrules would have been a better choice.

There are purpose designed underwater handguns. Firing a regular sidearm underwater would be a last resort move. On the other hand firing while just coming out of the water or trying to escape by going into water would probably happen often enough to make this an important factor in a handgun to be issued to the SEALs.

Light weight of the handgun is not so important when a diver must already wear a weight belt to avoid unwanted bouyancy.

[wtfooptimax200]

I'm not sure if any of you watch mythbusters, but they performed a related experiment on their show. The were testing the effective range of rifles at underwater targets (IIRC they were M1 Garands, but I'm not positive). It seemed that the effective range was incrediblly shot. It may have been in the neighborhood of 1-2 meters. After that, the bullet was substantially slowed. I believe purpose built underwater pistols may fire a dart type projectile, but I'm not too sure.

[OuchHot!]

Jeepers! People were shooting at Mike Nelson on Sea Hunt all the time.....you coud see the bullets fly (not very far).

I guess that dates me.

[subsonic]

Shooting under or through water can be accomplished. The shape, construction, and especially velocity are important variables.

FMJ 9mm does go a ways. FMJ 45acp works too. Would like to see what happens with a .458 win mag shooting a 500gr RN solid as velocity is adjusted.

Faster and lighter don't work well.

Its interesting how this might play into penetration on animals - which are mostly water.

[Arisaka99]

Yeah, i wouldnt want to use a hp anyways.. I think a small (very small) hp would work, but you'd want it cast somewhat hard.. Idk, i could be wrong and probably are..

[dmize]

I was jsut getting ready to mention the Myth Busters episode, it was an M1 Garand and the bullet didnt go very far. I think concussion would cause more damge than the bullet.

[Dannix]

Arisaka99, why not just bring a good, proper sized blade? An old Bowie could actually be a more effective tool against sharks than a sidearm.


It seemed that the effective range was incrediblly shot. It may have been in the neighborhood of 1-2 meters. After that, the bullet was substantially slowed. I believe purpose built underwater pistols may fire a dart type projectile, but I'm not too sure.
That's because they don't know what they are doing or simply didn't care (it's a TV show don't forget).


Well if what I've read about this is true, firing underwater was part of the testing done on all the pitols submitted to the USN SEAL, the glock failed this and I think some other tests, possibly sand in the recoil spring.
Got any PDFs or links you can share? You know the cartridge used in said testing? Just curious.

[tek4260]

Seems like this would cause an incredible increase in chamber pressure and blow the case at the ramp.

[Bret4207]

I haven't dived in decades, but IIRC bang sticks are designed to be used underwater. Seems a far better choice than shooting a shark with a spear gun. I've shot a lot of fish with a Hawaiian Sling type spear and never got anything even close to an instant kill. Sticking a shark would just get him po'd.

I honestly can't think of a good reason to take a pistol underwater than doesn't involve military ops. Use the tool designed for your purpose.

[subsonic]

Seems like this would cause an incredible increase in chamber pressure and blow the case at the ramp.

The most important part is to make sure there is no air in the gun. The water equalizes pressure on the outside as well as inside of the gun. Don't try this with just any gun.

[Arisaka99]

Arisaka99, why not just bring a good, proper sized blade? An old Bowie could actually be a more effective tool against sharks than a sidearm.

Well, that is most likely what I'll be using.. They say they never see sharks around here, but there are plenty around. Think about it, Im diving at the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay. Anything of any size can come and go as it pleases. Ive read of ways to kill sharks with a knife, but IDK, I was just wondering why Glocks had to have special spring cups, Im not too worried about sharks, but it is a concern..

[Multigunner]

Got any PDFs or links you can share? You know the cartridge used in said testing? Just curious.

I'm not much interested in the plastic pistols, so I didn't bother saving links.
You can expect the cartridges used would be NATO compliant STANAG, which can be hard on any handgun.

Only reason I looked it up was someone claimed the Navy SEALs used the Glock, and I could find no indication that they did.

The recoil spring guide seemed to be the cause of malfunctions rather than the lock up or unsupported casehead that sometimes allows blow outs. Water in the bore doesn't seem to have raised pressure enough to over stress the action, it just wouldn't cycle without the added cup or whatever they came up with later on.

Update
The spring cups seem to be for the firing pin spring rather than the recoil spring.


They insure that water can pass by the firing pin within the firing pin channel, thus preventing the creation of hydraulic force within the firing pin channel -- which would slow the firing pin down, causing light primer strikes. With the special cups, the action will cycle reliably while submersed, if a little bit slower. NATO specification ammunition (such as Winchester's Ranger RA9124N) with waterproof sealed primers and case mouths is recommended.

Although you may install the maritime spring cups on any Glock model, *only* the Glock 17 was designed and intended to use the modified spring cups for aquatic firing -- and only then using 9mm ball ammunition to remain within acceptable pressure limits. The foolhardy who insist on living dangerously must keep several things in mind: The Glock 17 must be fully submersed underwater. There must not be any air left within the pistol as the muzzle is pointed towards the surface of the water after submersion to allow the air in the barrel to escape. Use only full metal jacket, ball-type ammunition because the water within the barrel can spread a hollow point out within the barrel upon firing. This increases the bearing surface of the bullet to the barrel and could catastrophically increase pressures. Even if the barrel doesn't burst, the expanded bullet would get even bigger upon exiting into the water and would slow down very quickly while tumbling. Accuracy would be terrible.

The marinized Glock 17 is primarily for use by various Special Warfare units operating in aquatic environments. At least one specialized Scuba diving group regularly uses G17's to dispatch sharks where they dive. The Glock 17 using NATO specification ball ammunition will completely penetrate a minimum of one 1/2" pine board at a distance of ten feet from the muzzle when fired underwater.

I guess a hammer fired pistol is less affected by water resistence. That stands to reason.
The sand infiltration of the lockwork is another issue entirely.
http://www.glockfaq.com/content.aspx?ckey=glock_faq_general_glock_info

Caution, the site also recounts a intrepid Glock owner attempting to fire his .40 Glock underwater (YouTube strikes again), the pistol Kaboomed wounding him with fragments and deafened him in one ear.

[tek4260]

I have to ask what mall ninja cares about this? Is there really that much change in the fountain that you will have to pursue the BG into it and shoot him while submerged?

[x101airborne]

I am not a diver, but I spend a lot of my summer offshore fishing. I will probably never buy a bangstick and would like to know that what I am carrying can fend off an underwater threat if something happens and we have to swim. I find this a relavent question for any boater, fisherman, rescue personnel, etc. It is not that anyone is planning on using it underwater, but what if it was immediately necessary?

I guess some of us "mall ninja's" don't go to the mall as much as others. And I care about this subject.

Also, I would think the concussion underwater would work better on the shark than the boolit. There are also other fish than sharks that can cause trouble for a grown, experienced man under water. Grouper, Barracuda, Wahoo, Jewfish, Dolphin (the bottlenose kind). Dont need to kill em, just make em go away!!

We wadefish the inland coast for spotted seatrout. Last summer a pod of dolphin came around and smelled the stringered trout tied to our belts. They came for a quick meal. Almost drowned me, and nearly broke my uncle's leg when he hit one trying to get it off. Lost a 300 dollar rod and reel, my fish, and ruined my day. This is a perfectly viable thread.

[Arisaka99]

I didnt think Dolphins were that aggressive.. Wow...

[subsonic]

I thought somebody already said it, but maritime spring cups are for the striker. They allow water to bypass the striker instead of building pressure like a syringe when its released. They are cheap and quik to change.

I'm not surprised the 40 blew... It is already pushing the envelope without the water. 10mm is what the 40 should have stayed as. Bigger frame guns, larger and thicker webbed case leaves some margin for error.

[Multigunner]

I am not a diver, but I spend a lot of my summer offshore fishing. I will probably never buy a bangstick and would like to know that what I am carrying can fend off an underwater threat if something happens and we have to swim. I find this a relavent question for any boater, fisherman, rescue personnel, etc. It is not that anyone is planning on using it underwater, but what if it was immediately necessary?

I guess some of us "mall ninja's" don't go to the mall as much as others. And I care about this subject.

Also, I would think the concussion underwater would work better on the shark than the boolit. There are also other fish than sharks that can cause trouble for a grown, experienced man under water. Grouper, Barracuda, Wahoo, Jewfish, Dolphin (the bottlenose kind). Dont need to kill em, just make em go away!!

We wadefish the inland coast for spotted seatrout. Last summer a pod of dolphin came around and smelled the stringered trout tied to our belts. They came for a quick meal. Almost drowned me, and nearly broke my uncle's leg when he hit one trying to get it off. Lost a 300 dollar rod and reel, my fish, and ruined my day. This is a perfectly viable thread.


One never knows if they might one day have to abandon ship, and be left in shark infested waters with whatever they pick up as survival gear during a hurried evacuation.
So yes this is a topic worth looking into further.

A aquaintance once had his head sucked into the mouth of a grouper while free diving. They like to swim up behind divers and if the driver turns quickly the grouper is startled and whatever is directly in front of its open mouth can be sucked in.
From what he said getting your head out of a groupers mouth is not easy.

Dolphins aren't know for attacking humans, but they can and will fight if they feel they or a pod mate has been attacked.

PS
They say that a Dolphin always has a silly grin because the first time a Dolphin saw a human it was a cave man paddling out to sea on a log looking for something to eat.

Also
It seems theres a different add on intended to help prevent water borne sand from choking the internals. Its called a "butt plug", I have no idea what it does.

[Arisaka99]

Multigunner, it sits in the hole in the grip that is behind the magazine well. If left open, dust and dirt can get into that hole.

[Mal Paso]

I can't imagine a handgun being effective on a shark. The brain is the only value target and it is Very Small. Some of the guys carried bang sticks with a 12ga shotgun shell on the end of a pole. If you didn't hit the brain you might rend enough flesh to make him notice.

Young and Dumb I was wading out from shore once and the sand exploded under my feet. I could see a shark form in the swirling sand. My 2 rubber Voit speargun was already pointed down so I lined up on where his brain should be and let him have it. He towed me around for 20 minutes until the slider on the spear broke and he got away. Someone else found him the next day and drug him on shore with my spear still in him ( bent beyond repair ). It was a Manta Ray 4' tip to tip and a full foot thick.

Water's too darn cold now for me to get back in.

[Arisaka99]

Do you still spearfish? Im looking at getting a MAKO 60cm band gun.

[Multigunner]

I can't imagine a handgun being effective on a shark. The brain is the only value target and it is Very Small. Some of the guys carried bang sticks with a 12ga shotgun shell on the end of a pole. If you didn't hit the brain you might rend enough flesh to make him notice.

Young and Dumb I was wading out from shore once and the sand exploded under my feet. I could see a shark form in the swirling sand. My 2 rubber Voit speargun was already pointed down so I lined up on where his brain should be and let him have it. He towed me around for 20 minutes until the slider on the spear broke and he got away. Someone else found him the next day and drug him on shore with my spear still in him ( bent beyond repair ). It was a Manta Ray 4' tip to tip and a full foot thick.

Water's too darn cold now for me to get back in.

Something similar happened to an aquaintance in Florida many years ago. He speared a very large Grouper (at least I think it was a Grouper) and had the end of the cord tied to his wrist.
The big fish dragged him down to the bottom, which was near fatal because this fellow was snorkeling rather than wearing SCUBA tanks.
He finally got free, and the story had a very happy ending because the Grouper had dragged him straight to a sunken cabin cruiser which he later raised from the bottom and was restoring when he told me of this adventure.
He raised the sunken cabin cruiser using plastic milk cartons that he filled with air using a small compressor mounted on a rowboat.

PS
I remember a actor once saying that while vacationing in Florida he discovered that if a wet paper bag brushed against his leg he would scream just as loud as if it was a shark.

[Mal Paso]

Something similar happened to an aquaintance in Florida many years ago. He speared a very large Grouper (at least I think it was a Grouper) and had the end of the cord tied to his wrist.
The big fish dragged him down to the bottom, which was near fatal because this fellow was snorkeling rather than wearing SCUBA tanks.


That point was brought home early in my diving. An "experienced" diver had tied his spear line to his weight belt. This was about 1970 and I'm thinking it was not a quick release buckle or he could not get to it. Anyway a large Grouper he had speared pulled him into the wreck of The Dominator, a Greek grain ship where we used to dive. There were some nasty currents there too. He was wearing SCUBA and it couldn't have been a pleasant death. I left my spear line tied to the gun as it came from the factory.

I dove all through High School but girls and work gradually took over and on the Pacific Coast the currents are North to South. I worked briefly for Jack O'Neil who offered me a suit if I wanted to get back into diving but I didn't take him up on the offer. He had some Great Stories.

I've been away from diving so long I wouldn't know who makes a good spear gun. That 2 rubber Voit brought home a lot of rockfish and grouper and punched clean through that Manta Ray but I doubt they make them anymore.

[Arisaka99]

Around here, the biggest thing would be a shark or a striper, and we arent allowed to spear any of them, and the vis isnt very great here either, so that is our situation..