Why do you want ALOX in your Lube?

[Rocket Man]

The company that originally made ALOX 2138F stopped making it many years ago. Lubrizol claims to be making ALOX. LEE claims to have liquid ALOX. There is also ALOX 350 that has a lower melting point than ALOX 2138F. Is there a copyright on the word ALOX, if not anyone can mix some stuff together and call it ALOX.

Does ALOX still exist?

Why do so many reloaders insist they must have ALOX in their lube?

Everyone in my family has always driven a FORD so I drive a FORD too! I wouldn't get caught dead driving a CHEVY. Is that what we are dealing with here with ALOX? The Red Neck Attitude!

I read where people say they get gun barrel LEADING when they use JAKES lube or some other lube. Then another person claims JAKES lube works fine for them. Then another person says they get LEADING when shooting a 44 mag but NO LEADING when shooting a 38 special. Your compairing Apples to Oranges.

Barrel Leading is caused by a combination of things, the type of Lead you use, the velocity of your bullet and maybe the lube too. Barrel Leading is not just a LUBE problem.

A combination of soft lead and bullet velocity is the number one reason for barrel leading. A higher velocity bullet needs harder lead than a lower velocity bullet. Newton's laws of motion, a bullet at rest tends to stay at rest. You shoot a bullet down a gun barrel the rifling makes the bullet spin but if the lead is too soft the bullet does not spin it just rips the lead off the side of the bullet and fills the rifling with lead.

[mdi]

I don't know about everyone else, but I "insist" on using alox (actually xlox from White Lable) because it works for me. In shooting cast lead bullets there are so many variables it's nearly impossible to say my lube for my .44s will work in your .44. In my experience, and what I've read here, bullet fit is key to lead-free shooting. A soft lead bullet driven too fast will lead, but a soft lead bullet driven fast that fits the gun properly will prolly not lead, generally speaking. So for my home made 50/50 and 45-45-10 lube alox (xlox) works...

Hmmm, just noticed this is Rocket Man's first post. Welcome...

[870TC]

Alox type lube was one of the first successful commercially made lubes, hard to dispute that or get past that for many people.
Most leading I see is from to Hard a bullet combined with too small a diameter or combined with light charges of fast burning powder.

[Hip's Ax]

From White Label's web site.

"Alox is a trade mark of the Alox corp., which is now owned by Luberizol"

This is why WL calls their products "Xlox" because Luberizol told WL they cannot use the Alox name.

[Uncle R.]

First post, Rocket Man?
Welcome!
I suspect your explanation of the causes of leading may draw a few responses - it's the kind of subject that can carry a lot of different opinions.
<
Play nice guys...
:)
Uncle R.

[uscra112]

Well, to answer the specific question, the Alox is the lubricant.

Back in the '50s Col. E. H. Harrison, then with the NRA, did an exhaustive study of the cast bullet in all its' aspects, including a study of lubricants. His final choice was this Alox material, alloyed about 50-50 with beeswax. Many suppliers followed his lead, so Alox formula lubes were, (and still are), very common. The maker and the formula have changed, but it is still a favorite. Harrison wrote that he actually had superior results with straight lithium grease, but deferred to the Alox mix because it stayed on the boolit and didn't spread grease all through the chamber.

Harrison also published a careful engineering study of the forces applied to a boolit as it is fired, and found that even pure lead boolits cannot "strip the rifling" unless they are grossly undersize for the throat of the firearm. This is even true of the early Marlin Microgroove barrels, with their very shallow grooves. A fact that I can attest to, having fired several hundred pounds of all kind of boolits from my old Dad's Model 336. Size the boolit correctly for your gun, and you will have no leading, so long as there is some sort of lube present.

Glen Fryxell published an excellent essay on lubes. It's on the web.

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm

[turbo1889]

. . . A combination of soft lead and bullet velocity is the number one reason for barrel leading . . . You shoot a bullet down a gun barrel the rifling makes the bullet spin but if the lead is too soft the bullet does not spin it just rips the lead off the side of the bullet and fills the rifling with lead.

Once again I have been proven wrong in my belief that I have heard it all. I wouldn't have bothered to post if you hadn't stated this hypothesis of your as a confirmed fact of being "the number one reason".

My reply is no comment; which in and of itself is indeed a comment.

[kelbro]

Welcome RocketMan. Do some reading on this site and you will soon learn that you can shoot even pure lead at relatively high velocities if your bullet is sized correctly and you have the right lube.

[geargnasher]

Once again I have been proven wrong in my belief that I have heard it all. I wouldn't have bothered to post if you hadn't stated this hypothesis of your as a confirmed fact of being "the number one reason".

My reply is no comment; which in and of itself is indeed a comment.

I'm glad somebody finally set me straight on leading.

:bigsmyl2:

Gear

[waksupi]

I'm speechless.

Where am I?

[onondaga]

Alox Corp is a short drive from me and in Niagara Falls, NY. Liquid Alox was originally and still also used as an after-market auto under-body pressure sprayed rust proofing coating and sold under numerous brand names. The guys at the factory are very friendly and if you visit there during their lunch hour they will fill small containers to about a quart for bullet casters if you bring your own container. Bullet lube is only a tiny part of their market and they get a kick out of our hobby using their product.

They have had slow downs , layoffs and temporary shutdowns like a lot of industries in the area but they are still hanging on there in Niagara Falls. Here is a Google Earth image of the factory on Buffalo Ave.:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/Alox.jpg

The Guy that sells 'XLOX" on Ebay packages one quart containers from drums of the stuff from this factory as Lee also does with 4 oz bottles.

Gary

[geargnasher]

Gary, speaking of obscure and little known places, I helped a pipe-organ builder friend of mine move some parts and pieces out of an old barn this weekend, one of the consoles was an old Wurlitzer electronic spinet organ with the blower and main air chamber built right in the back. It had an Opus number of 637 and was made in N. Tonawanda, NY in the early 50's. I can't find that plant in any internet information I've dug up, but my friend assured me they had a six-story plant there in the early 1900s, turning out one complete organ a day in it's prime. Do you know where the plant was?

Gear

[onondaga]

I can walk to that. The manufacturing ceased years ago but the place is still open and maintains a small museum that opens sporadically on the property on Niagara Falls Blvd. (Rt.62 ) here in N.Tonawanda, NY.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.johnlodge.com/wurlitzer.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.johnlodge.com/news.php&h=640&w=480&sz=124&tbnid=V84LuHXw_lzW2M:&tbnh=91&tbnw=68&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwurlitzer%2Bfactory%2Bphotos%26tbm%3D isch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=wurlitzer+factory+photos&hl=en&usg=__HK6wz3kBiUNI3bO2e6XZBRHLj-g=&sa=X&ei=muP-TY_aGqb30gGS9ry4Aw&sqi=2&ved=0CCsQ9QEwAw&dur=4588

http://www.google.com/search?q=wurlitzer+factory+photos&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=633&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=muP-TY_aGqb30gGS9ry4Aw&sqi=2&ved=0CCEQsAQ

Wurlitzer also made a variety musical instruments and temporarily produced Showbud Pedal Steel Guitars for a few years. I have played one, the action of the undercarriages is greatly improved over the originals and they are very collectable and a joy to play.

Gary

[badbob454]

The company that originally made ALOX 2138F stopped making it many years ago. Lubrizol claims to be making ALOX. LEE claims to have liquid ALOX. There is also ALOX 350 that has a lower melting point than ALOX 2138F. Is there a copyright on the word ALOX, if not anyone can mix some stuff together and call it ALOX.

Does ALOX still exist?

Why do so many reloaders insist they must have ALOX in their lube?

Everyone in my family has always driven a FORD so I drive a FORD too! I wouldn't get caught dead driving a CHEVY. Is that what we are dealing with here with ALOX? The Red Neck Attitude!

I read where people say they get gun barrel LEADING when they use JAKES lube or some other lube. Then another person claims JAKES lube works fine for them. Then another person says they get LEADING when shooting a 44 mag but NO LEADING when shooting a 38 special. Your compairing Apples to Oranges.

Barrel Leading is caused by a combination of things, the type of Lead you use, the velocity of your bullet and maybe the lube too. Barrel Leading is not just a LUBE problem.

A combination of soft lead and bullet velocity is the number one reason for barrel leading. A higher velocity bullet needs harder lead than a lower velocity bullet. Newton's laws of motion, a bullet at rest tends to stay at rest. You shoot a bullet down a gun barrel the rifling makes the bullet spin but if the lead is too soft the bullet does not spin it just rips the lead off the side of the bullet and fills the rifling with lead.

wow great first post jump in there with both feet , i too drive a ford and use alox...

[onondaga]

Welcome to the new guy. I butt in all over the place.

I gotta tell you that the original Rocket Man flew just down the street from Wurlitzer at Bell Aerospace on Rt.62. I was there and watched in the parking lot at Bell, I think it was 1958 or so. I went with my Cub Scout Pack and we watched the Jet Pack Guy fly his first historical public flight!

Gary

[onondaga]

You can google Alox MSDS and get an idea what is in the various Alox products. I still maintain it is made from the goop in the Labrea Tar pits in California and thinned down with the solvents listed on the MSDS sheets. Go to California and take a sniff in the tar pits and you will agree.

Gary

[mdi]

You can google Alox MSDS and get an idea what is in the various Alox products. I still maintain it is made from the goop in the Labrea Tar pits in California and thinned down with the solvents listed on the MSDS sheets. Go to California and take a sniff in the tar pits and you will agree.

Gary

Gary,
It would be impossible to locate the Tar Pits by smell only, the whole city of L.A. stinks! (60 year resident of L.A. county and 25+ year employee of City of L.A.;))

[kelbro]

Welcome to the new guy. I butt in all over the place.

I gotta tell you that the original Rocket Man flew just down the street from Wurlitzer at Bell Aerospace on Rt.62. I was there and watched in the parking lot at Bell, I think it was 1958 or so. I went with my Cub Scout Pack and we watched the Jet Pack Guy fly his first historical public flight!

Gary


One scene from the movie 'Rocket Man' was filmed from the window in my office overlooking our electronics factory.

[geargnasher]

Thanks, Gary, I knew you would know!

Gear

[wiljen]

Is there a copyright on the word ALOX?


Yes, it is a registered trademark owned by Lubrizol. Lee uses the name under license of Lubrizol.



Does ALOX still exist?


Yes, Lubrizol bought the holding and rights from the original Alox corporation and produces most of the original product line.

[Michael Petrov]

I use it because it works and has for some time now.

I've tried many of the commercial Alox base lubes and was not happy with them. In the late 1970's I bought a gallon of Alox 2138F and starting making my own. It's a good lube but has some limitations, it does not work well when the temp is over 75 (not very often here) and it must never be melted over a direct flame, always use a double boiler.

I have three lubes that I use and the Alox-Beeswax is the one that seems to work the best for what I do which is plain-base lead at one and two-hundred yards.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/mjpetrov/img286.jpg

[Recluse]

The company that originally made ALOX 2138F stopped making it many years ago. Lubrizol claims to be making ALOX. LEE claims to have liquid ALOX. There is also ALOX 350 that has a lower melting point than ALOX 2138F. Is there a copyright on the word ALOX, if not anyone can mix some stuff together and call it ALOX.

Does ALOX still exist?

Why do so many reloaders insist they must have ALOX in their lube?

Everyone in my family has always driven a FORD so I drive a FORD too! I wouldn't get caught dead driving a CHEVY. Is that what we are dealing with here with ALOX? The Red Neck Attitude!

I read where people say they get gun barrel LEADING when they use JAKES lube or some other lube. Then another person claims JAKES lube works fine for them. Then another person says they get LEADING when shooting a 44 mag but NO LEADING when shooting a 38 special. Your compairing Apples to Oranges.

Barrel Leading is caused by a combination of things, the type of Lead you use, the velocity of your bullet and maybe the lube too. Barrel Leading is not just a LUBE problem.

A combination of soft lead and bullet velocity is the number one reason for barrel leading. A higher velocity bullet needs harder lead than a lower velocity bullet. Newton's laws of motion, a bullet at rest tends to stay at rest. You shoot a bullet down a gun barrel the rifling makes the bullet spin but if the lead is too soft the bullet does not spin it just rips the lead off the side of the bullet and fills the rifling with lead.

Well, damn.

I thought I had it down for the past thirty or so years, but thankfully YOU came along and in one post, explained everything that I and thousands of others here have been doing wrong.

Must be the redneck in me.

:coffee:

[cbrick]

A combination of soft lead and bullet velocity is the number one reason for barrel leading. .

Dang, silly me. And to think that all this time I was convinced the number one reason for barrel leading was POOR BULLET FIT.

Learn something new every day.

Welcome to Castboolits Rocket Man. :drinks:

Rick

[timkelley]

I use ALOX because it works for me.

[runfiverun]

i seen the rocket man back in the day [serial at the theaters]
one of my favorites was 'radar men from the moon'
i think i even have it on video casette they shoulda just released some of those serials instead of making a new version

[Love Life]

The company that originally made ALOX 2138F stopped making it many years ago. Lubrizol claims to be making ALOX. LEE claims to have liquid ALOX. There is also ALOX 350 that has a lower melting point than ALOX 2138F. Is there a copyright on the word ALOX, if not anyone can mix some stuff together and call it ALOX.

Does ALOX still exist?

Why do so many reloaders insist they must have ALOX in their lube?

Everyone in my family has always driven a FORD so I drive a FORD too! I wouldn't get caught dead driving a CHEVY. Is that what we are dealing with here with ALOX? The Red Neck Attitude!

I read where people say they get gun barrel LEADING when they use JAKES lube or some other lube. Then another person claims JAKES lube works fine for them. Then another person says they get LEADING when shooting a 44 mag but NO LEADING when shooting a 38 special. Your compairing Apples to Oranges.

Barrel Leading is caused by a combination of things, the type of Lead you use, the velocity of your bullet and maybe the lube too. Barrel Leading is not just a LUBE problem.

A combination of soft lead and bullet velocity is the number one reason for barrel leading. A higher velocity bullet needs harder lead than a lower velocity bullet. Newton's laws of motion, a bullet at rest tends to stay at rest. You shoot a bullet down a gun barrel the rifling makes the bullet spin but if the lead is too soft the bullet does not spin it just rips the lead off the side of the bullet and fills the rifling with lead.

ALOX is made of sugar, spice, and everything nice. Actually I use Lee LLA because it just plain works. I am one of those you speak of who had problems with Jakes Purple Ceresin. Boolit size and alloy were not the issues. The lube was. Period and bar none. When I used the same size boolits, cast from the same alloy, in the same guns with only the lube being the difference it is kind of easy to figure out what the problem is. I get no leading with LLA, speed green, Lotak Hard, or Thompson Blue Angel. The only thing in your post that is correct is that boolit lube isn't the only factor in barrel leading.:groner:

[Char-Gar]

Alox came on the bullet lube scene 30 years or so ago, when the American Rifleman ran an article on a mixture of 50/50 alox and beeswax. It got good reviews but proved to be too much of a good thing in some applications. It became known as the NRA Formula and companies began to produce it for retail sale. Javelin still makes it and it is a good general purpose lube. with some limitations.

ONe limitation that comes to mind is with 38 Special wad cutter loads. If all of the lube grooves were filled, accuracy was not as good as just filling the bottom groove and leaving the others dry.

Folks seem to have gone to seed on alox. I don't use it and get great results without it. Lee popularized it along with it's other cheapo products. Some folks now assume that any lube without alox is no good.

I tried Lee Liquid Alox on a couple of occasion and the results were disappointing compared to the lube I had used for decades. I could see no reason to keep on playing with the goop trying to make it work. I know some folks have broken the code on it, but I never thought it worth the effort.

So, count me among the folks who are not enamored with alox.

[Michael Petrov]

I guess it all depends on what a person is trying to work towards. I think many different lubes work well> Each person has to find the one best suited for the bullet they are using.

I had a heck of nice group going this AM until a breeze showed up, even with my new wind flags it a least doubled in size ;-).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/mjpetrov/img287.jpg

[1hole]

Most handgun bullets were swaged or cast lead until the mid to late 60's when jackets slowly started taking over for higher velocities and to obtain better expansion from a hard jacket over a soft core.

The old guys were good and they experimented with hundreds of potential lubes mixed various ways. In the early to mid 60s some of the experts worked with the NRA to find the best performing bullet lube they could find. A 50:50 mix of Alox and beeswax turned out to do the job better than anything else but Alox wasn't commercially available in smaller quantites than 55 gal drums. Some NRA member took a chance, bought a drum of it along with an equal amount of beeswax. He melted it into half pint 'paint' cans and sold it cheap in Am. Rifleman adds. Having proved it would sell, he soon had several competitors, most of whom cast it into tubes for easy use in most lubrasizers. The rest is history.

For a long period the NRA stuff nearly wiped out the rest of the commercial lubes so they had to get on the bandwagon or lose out completely. But, some guys didn't like the smell (guess they wanted lilacs in their loading room?), some didn't like the tackness. Other lubes, especially the hard ones that need to be heated for use, came along but none of them work as well as the original for me. I can easily get 1,500 fps outta my .357/.44 mag stuff with it and only have light traces of leading - or none at all. I haven't even fooled with a different lube in the last 15 or so years and don't intend to do so.

My .243 'squirrel' load is a Lyman 85 gr, Loverin bullet lubed with Alox, it produces some 1,950 fps. It performs like a .22 WMRF with a flatter trajectory and much better penatration through leaves and twigs. I doubt I could get that speed with good accuracy using any other lube.

[nanuk]

I use ALOX because it works for me.


Hooct on fonex werkt fer mee