new start

[bigted]

ok so i got caught up in the mood and overdid it some...wound up with 6 45-70 rifles and all my notes that i took down for all the experiments are gone with the virus that my old computer received

i seem to have been a small bit overconfident as well ...but this is just another note in the stories of my life...overdo till it hurts then stop n open my eyes to see what havoc Ive raised this time..

my accuracy was dismal anyway and all the stuff i experimented with is still in my noggin somewhere so not a total loss i guess. my one problem as i remember was that i was switching from rifle to rifle with the same cases and the same boolits and so on. 1 load for all so to speak. consequently the best i ever came up with was around 4 inch groups at 100 yds. tore me up as i had one hole groups at 50 yds so i continued to scratch wondering what happened to that grouping i had in winter.

ho hum ... im going to try a different approach this time. gonna use one rifle and keep written records in a book that will stay with that rifle...BROWNING 1885 HI-WALL BPCR TO START WITH...

i also decided to try everything ive read about producing the most accurate loads for this rifle in this regard... i received unto myself 100 new Winchester cases which i carefully length trimmed and weighed...keeping only the cases that weighed between 265.5 gr and 266.5 gr's. ill use the others to be sighters. i then carefully ground a mark between the w;s with my small grinder on the rim for indexing needs. i then full length sized them using the index mark in relationship to the die. also used the index for belling the mouth and also priming the cases.

now to the question...what is the best loads for fire forming these new cases to the chamber? can i use the smokless and jacketed for this or should i stick with bp and my 520 gr boolits? full strength loads or lite loads? im going to use the index for cambering as well and i have the book started for all these things im doing as well as the outcome for every step along the way.

maybe i can break into some satisfying groups finally with the basics started with in an orderly fashion.

read a post from montana charlie about hunting for a lost pocket knife and as i chuckled about the analogy...i had to look inward and laugh out loud for i recognize his storie in myself. thanks all for the patients and long suffering with this rambunctious kid at heart.

8-)..;-)...:grin:...;-)

[Gunlaker]

Ted, I think that there are a lot of things that are a waste of time until you get below 2" groups. From my few years playing with these rifles, I think that if you have a good barrel with any reasonable chamber you can get sub 2moa by sticking to the basics.

I've got a number of BP cartridge rifles and I've noticed a few things:

1) the bullet. A bullet of the wrong hardness or shape can make it impossible to find decent accuracy. I have one rifle I recently posted about that started with 6" groups @ 100m and with a powder change and different bullet, it's consistently under 1.5 moa.

2) primers. I've had a big difference with primer changes. When I use light charges, magnum primers seem to work best, with heavy charges I usually use Federal LR Match primers. I've noticed that lighter charges seem to be more sensetive than compressed charges with respect to primer changes. I keep as many brands on hand as I can find for testing.

I weigh powder charges to .1gr, use a drop tube and compression plug. Some loads are finger seated, some use neck tension and are seated with a competition bullet seater. I've yet to weigh a case, or anneal one either, although they are on my long list of things to try.

I can say this though, if you can't get better than 4" groups then likely you need a better fitting bullet.


Chris.

[montana_charlie]

i received unto myself 100 new Winchester cases which i carefully length trimmed and weighed...keeping only the cases that weighed between 265.5 gr and 266.5 gr's. ill use the others to be sighters. i then carefully ground a mark between the w;s with my small grinder on the rim for indexing needs. i then full length sized them
I agree with the concept of carefully preparing a quantity of matched brass to be used for the load development phase. But, I disagree with any plan that removes metal before the first firing ... unless you know the chamber depth, and are certain you have more length than needed.

In addition, a careful trimming to length FOLLOWED by full length sizing seems backward to me.

CM

[Wayne Smith]

Ted, I see a problem. I don't think you have decided what you want to do with this rifle yet. If you haven't decided between smokeless and the Holy Black you do not yet know your goal. Until you know your goal you cannot measure progress.

Is this rifle for hunting, for play, or for BPCR? Do you want to shoot it as originally intended or do you want to be convenient?

Answer those questions, decide on your powder and the degree of accuracy and work you want, and we can help you.

[RMulhern]

If the frickin brass will chamber.....load with a full charge of BLACK POWDER and shoot with a bullet of 500 grs. or better! THEN....look to see if you have any 'curl down' at the mouth of the case! If not FL resize and go again! Don't trim at all UNTIL you've determined what the actual chamber length is! DO A CHAMBER CAST...BY....someone that knows how! And like the man said....."determine what you're going to use the rifle for!" Pulling the wagon with a chain...is a helluva lot easier than pushing it with a chain!!

[cajun shooter]

Ted, I agree with some of your things to do and not others. I also will give RM a huge +1 on his post. I also agree with MC (Didn't think you would see that did you MC?) I am sorry but I don't agree about not annealing cases as posted by Gunlaker. I can say that after I listened to KW about what he does with his cases and he told me that he annealed them at each loading, My groups improved enough to show that it works. This was in my gun but KW receives the same and he has the records to show he is to be listened to. You have to work with one gun at a time. If you are trying to find a load for all of them then you are like a dog chasing his tail. I am also speaking of the use of Black powder to develop these loads. No other powder can compete with it in rifles made to fire it and they don't include any of the fun. I had my PC attacked because of my knowledge and not knowing about how to lessen those chances. If nothing else, store all your BPCR information in one file and back it up with a cd copy after so many days. I will say this but they have many here that have tons more of knowledge than I do about it. I have never done indexing and still have been able to shoot those very tight groups. If you read the book by MV you will see where a lot of the top shooters have never done it. You said you never got below 4 inch groups,well I would not go at it with a full frontal attack but with a gradual slow approach. That way you will see which move gives you the best for your effort. Later David

[doubs43]

Ted, if you've already trimmed the cases and you only want to fire-form them, why waste lead or j-boolits? Use enough smokeless powder and filler to form them and only then load with boolits.

WRT losing your computer data, external backup drives are cheap and can save a lot of headaches.

[Gunlaker]

David, I don't mean to imply that I think annealing is pointless, but that if you have more than one rifle and they all do 4" groups, something more basic than annealing is likely the problem. I haven't written off annealing, I just havent tried it yet.

Chris.