FCD two kinds

[skeet1]

I have read a lot of the threads about how the Lee Factory Crimp Die swedges down you bullet when you crimp and how some guys will knock out the carbide ring at the base of the die. I have also found that the rifle FCD works on an entirely different principal and is similar to the Lee collect neck sizing die with no carbide ring. Recently I purchased a .30-30 FCD and have been very pleased with the way it functions, making very uniform crimps. I also intend to get one of these in .30-06 and .303 British. Since I crimp separate from seating the bullet these dies seem to be just what I want and I would urge others to take another look.

Ken

[MikeS]

On my 45ACP FCD I did what somebody else here mentioned (I forget who), and I took the expander part out of the Lee expander die, and put the FCD part in it's place. Now I have a FCD without the lower carbide sizer, and I can still use the original FCD body with the Bulge Buster installed (the original reason I bought the FCD)! I never used the Lee expander when reloading, I always use a Lyman M die, so I lost nothing by doing this, and it's fully reversible if I ever chose to do that.

I also have a 30-30 FCD and it works great! They really should have given the pistol & rifle FCDs different names, as they are 2 totally different things, and somebody that is turned off by the pistol FCD might not buy a rifle one thinking it's the same thing! The only problem with the rifle FCD is it puts a nice deep crimp on the boolit, and that makes it really hard to pull them without damaging the boolit if they need to be pulled!

[milprileb]

Mike : you lost me entirely.

I think (in Kentucky Engish) you are saying:
a. You size 45APC
b. You M die for belling/ flare of case in 45acp
c. You seat bullets in 45acp cases
d. You taper crimp (having yanked carbide sizer out of Lee Carbide Crimp Die) 45 acp cases

If so, thats the 4 die process of yester year but you added M die for cast bullets

[MikeS]

That's basically it. However let me clarify. With Lee dies the expander die has a free floating expander that's held in place with a thumb screw on the top of the die. On the Lee bullet seating die the bullet seater is a free floating piece that's held in place & adjusted using a thumb screw on top. On the Lee pistol FCD die there's a carbide insert pressed into the die body on the mouth of the die. There's also the actual crimper which is a free floating piece that's held, and adjusted with a thumb screw on top. Do you start to notice a pattern here? It just so happens that the threads for the thumb screw on all three dies is the same, and the expander, bullet seater, and crimper are also the same size. Because of this they are basically interchangeable between die bodies. The FCD die body is different as it has the carbide sizer ring press fit in it's mouth. It's this sizer ring that messes with the carefully sized cast boolits, and causes undersized boolits. Some people take a tool, and break the carbide ring out of the FCD. This isn't really needed, as most folks that cast boolits will use a Lyman M die rather than the expander supplied by Lee in their die sets. So, rather than breaking out the sizer ring on a FCD if you take out the crimper part of the FCD, and also take out the expander part of the expander die (this die is usually not used, as it tries to do the job the Lyman M die does) and then put the crimper part into the expander body, you now have the functionality of the FCD (for crimping the boolit in place) without the sizer ring to ruin your carefully sized lead boolit. By doing it this way you can reverse it at any time, as no permanent changes have been made to any dies. Also, with Lee's Bulge Buster kit, it mounts on the FCD die body after the removal of the crimper part. As we've already removed it (and put it into the expander body) we can now leave the Bulge Buster attached to the FCD body full time.

So the end result of all this is where before we had 2 dies, one that we didn't use, and one that ruined our boolits when we used it, by swapping around a few parts we have 2 dies, one that will crimp our boolits in place without hurting them, and we have a case sizer that will remove bulges from case bases if that should be needed.

And yes, now it's basically the 4 die method of yesteryear, except that good things like it never go out of style, so it's just the 4 die method, of yesterday, today, and tomorrow! I hope this explained it a bit better for you.

[milprileb]

Thanks Mike, I see now you are pulling parts and making things work to your desired end state.

I get there with other maker dies bought nearly 40yrs ago but the M Die for flaring(belling or expanding... pick your term for it) is a good step for cast bullets and adapts the 4 die loading approach to the unique requirements of cast bullets.

I have been toying with this M die option for too long: I am going for it now.

Many Thanks for your break down of your approach: it will serve well those who own Lee dies and want to do the same.

[MikeS]

I actually have 3 different sets of 45ACP dies. A Lee 4 die set (which includes the FCD as the 4th die), a Lyman 3 die set, and a Lee Speed die (a Lee inovation that uses 1 die body for all the reloading functions, designed to be used on a single station press). I also reload 45 Auto Rim which uses a standard roll crimp like other revolver cartridges, so I keep the Lee bullet seater set to roll crimp, and use it when reloading 45AR. I use either the Lyman set for reloading 45ACP, or sometimes a mix of the die sets depending on what I'm doing.

Right now I'm doing something that might be considered strange, I have a couple of cases of 45ACP Blazer ball ammo, and I'm pulling the original bullets and replacing them with cast lead boolits. The setup I have in a 4 hole turret press is: First I have a Forster bullet puller, next I have a Lyman M die, then I have a Lyman seater die, and last I have the Lee FCD (with the swapped bodies as I said earlier) to crimp the boolit in place. The first box of 50 I did I dumped the powder, and used powder I had here, but I was thinking that the rounds are loaded with a 230gr TMJ bullet, so that load should be safe with a 230gr lead boolit, or a 200gr lead boolit, or anything in between, so in the later boxes I'm reusing the CCI powder that was already in the case (I never actually take it out of the case), as I think this would be a good way of evaluating what boolits work best in my guns, as the only thing that's varying is the actual boolit.

[milprileb]

Speed Die .... I remember that long ago but never researched it as I had 4 die set and a Dillon 450 at the time.

Since you are the master of complexity, what you need is 4 Speed dies: one for each of the holes of your 4 hole turret. That way you could set each die up for a specific function......wait, that means you would be having a four die set up.... that won't due as you got no place for the M Die !

Just pulling your leg !!

[MikeS]

It's actually a lot less complex than it sounds!

[fredj338]

I have read a lot of the threads about how the Lee Factory Crimp Die swedges down you bullet when you crimp and how some guys will knock out the carbide ring at the base of the die. I have also found that the rifle FCD works on an entirely different principal and is similar to the Lee collect neck sizing die with no carbide ring. Recently I purchased a .30-30 FCD and have been very pleased with the way it functions, making very uniform crimps. I also intend to get one of these in .30-06 and .303 British. Since I crimp separate from seating the bullet these dies seem to be just what I want and I would urge others to take another look.

Ken

The rifle dies are totally diff than the pistol dies. I find an accuracy drop off using the pistol LFCD so won't use them. YMMV

[milprileb]

Well, yes, no, maybe and I don't know.

I do believe the Pistol (Lee) carbide crimp die can swage bullets, the fact is this is
a matter of your brass thickness , sizing of bullets and how tight that Lee Carbide Crimp Die is made. Get one that only touches a over sized bullet or a bullet seated just a bit off axis and they can be great tools to have on a progressive press. Get a tight one and Yes.. all you ammo is going to feed like a charm but its not going to be accurate.

I think these dies if right size are a great item to have. Just got to have the right size and if yours swages bullets, send it back to Lee and have them open it up. Lee is a friendly to user type of firm so don't suffer in silence. I think they are a sponsor here so perhaps they will read this and know some folks appreciate them.

Now this M Die business (Lee.. you listening) is a very old type solution to a cast bullet problem in seating. I believe 97% of most bullets I have made that do not drop perfectly into chamber of my 1911 case gauge (spare barrel) is because I don't own a M die. I am putting one on my Dillon 650 for 45acp.

[MtGun44]

Original post is dead on.

Never used a pistol FCD, we have had some folks swear by them, more swear at them.

The RIFLE FCD has worked extremely well for me in multiple calibers.

Bill

[Atakawow]

Well, yes, no, maybe and I don't know.

I do believe the Pistol (Lee) carbide crimp die can swage bullets, the fact is this is
a matter of your brass thickness , sizing of bullets and how tight that Lee Carbide Crimp Die is made. Get one that only touches a over sized bullet or a bullet seated just a bit off axis and they can be great tools to have on a progressive press. Get a tight one and Yes.. all you ammo is going to feed like a charm but its not going to be accurate.

I think these dies if right size are a great item to have. Just got to have the right size and if yours swages bullets, send it back to Lee and have them open it up. Lee is a friendly to user type of firm so don't suffer in silence. I think they are a sponsor here so perhaps they will read this and know some folks appreciate them.

Now this M Die business (Lee.. you listening) is a very old type solution to a cast bullet problem in seating. I believe 97% of most bullets I have made that do not drop perfectly into chamber of my 1911 case gauge (spare barrel) is because I don't own a M die. I am putting one on my Dillon 650 for 45acp.

Doesn't Lee already make something similar to the Lyman "M" die called the Lee Universal Expanding die? I use it on my 30-30 and it does a great job with belling the case mouth.

[Atakawow]

I stand corrected. Did a search on Lyman M dies and found out they are a different breed.

[mroliver77]

For anybody that does not know. The Lyman "M" die not only belles the case mouth but it opens the case neck itself. Most sizing dies size way more than needed to accommodate differences in brass and assure good bullet fit. Even though they drag a ball back through to open the neck to the makers idea of what it should be it is generally too tight yet for cast boolits. The M die opens the neck to Lymans idea of the best boolit fit. The "spuds" that do the actual work are simple and easy to make. It would be nice if Lyman offered a bit better size selection for those that cannot make their own.

In a perfect world the sizing die would leave the neck the size we want for our application. Being all guns differ the M die is a good fix.

J

[462]

" It would be nice if Lyman offered a bit better size selection for those that cannot make their own."

It cost a case of very expensive beer to have one made to accommodate my .433" 429421s.

[Colorado4wheel]

It's all in the name.

For Pistol it's called the Carbide FCD
For Rifle it's called a FCD

They even omit the Carbide and just call it the Pistol FCD on their website in a couple spot. But on the actual page describing the die they call it the Carbide FCD.

[skeet1]

It is a shame that the pistol FCD give the rifle FCD a bad name because the Rifle die is a great tool!

Ken

[Colorado4wheel]

Yep, Too many people just call them all FCD.

[MtGun44]

+1 on skeet1's comment.

Bill

[1hole]

"It is a shame that the pistol FCD give the rifle FCD a bad name because the Rifle die is a great tool!"

Both are great tools but they are just tools. If you don't need a tool or don't know how to use it, no tool is much good. It's a shame that many reloaders can't seem to grasp how and why each FCD works - and when to use them - but choose to whine on the 'net that "they don't work good." The FCDs work well for people who know what they're doing with them. ??



"I have read a lot of the threads about how the Lee Factory Crimp Die swedges down you bullet"

Not if the combined case thickness AND bullet diameter are correct for the cartridge and chamber it will be used in. If so, the carbide post seating ring won't touch the cartridge. Using oversized handgun bullets in a sloppy chamber is no problem but oversized bullets in tight chambers may not chamber. Some of us prefer reliability above all else in a handgun but that can't occur if the cartridge is too fat; the FCD's sizing ring corrects for that.

It does get amusing to see someone make a comment about an FCD and others who have seen ONE type jump in to speak with authority on the other type without a clue of what they are talking about!

Lyman's excellant M die expander and Redding's copy of it is unique and it works great for both cast and jacketed bullets. Lee's "Universal" expander is a mouth flaring tool.

[milprileb]

1 Hole:

Regarding the Lee Carbide Crimp Die (for pistols and not talking about the FCD for rifles).

I can take Factory 230 gr FMJ RN and I can feel this die grab on the rounds. I can take .451 and .452 sized cast lead bullets, seat in 45ACP brass (mixed) and every one of the round will be grabbed by the dies carbide ring.

The amount of grabbing may be light or more intense. I suspect more intense is swaging indications.

That said: If .451 and .452 sized bullets seated in brass are grabbed by this die, then do you think I need to send die to be opened up by Lee ?

I got the die in the belief it would catch the odd round that had a bulge in it and not let that isolated round fail to feed. I did not buy it to swage bullets.

Your thoughts please. I am using the new Hornady Dimension seating die with the sleeve so I am thinking my bullets stand a good chance of seating properly and not be tilted when seated.

[1hole]

Mil, I don't know the tolerances of Lee's post sizing ring but the idea is that the seated rounds are not to exceed SAAMI's minumum chamber diameter tolerance in order to insure the finished cartridges will chamber reliably. I sure won't say that Lee (nor other brand) would NOT make a die that is smaller or larger than ideal nor do I know if they will grind them larger.

I fully agree that none of us obtain an FCD with the intent to swage anything but the infrequent anomoly and I suspect you're using it right, meaning for the right reason.

To me, the question of using that die seems more of an issue of how tight a chamber actually is than how tight the die may have been made. IF the largest loaded diameter ammo chambers smoothly then the FCD will not add anything to function and isn't needed.

I have always (somewhat crudely) tested the chamber diameter of all my handguns by carefully expanding some fired cases a couple thou at a time to see at what diameter the mouths start to drag on the chamber walls - effectively making the flared cases a poor mans pin gage (and there is a difference in the chambers of revolvers so it's the tightest one that counts!). Then a very light touch with a micrometer let me find what I actually needed to achieve for total chambering reliability. I only have a couple of handguns that need the assurance of an FCD so that is all of them I have, one is a .38 Special and the other is a 1911/.45. (There are more ways than one to skin a cat, prior to the advent of the FCD I used to carefully run finished rounds up a steel sizer to squeeze the to-fat rounds down a tad.)

I did a LOT of handgun shooting in past years and, for me at least, the currently popular idea that cast stuff should be a bit oversized never proved true. I found that low pressure, low velocity stuff is much more critical for a tight bore fit than hotter stuff, starting around 900-1000 fps anyway. Checking recovered bullets, I generally found very little bullet up-set/obturation with light loads but bullets from hot stuff would always swell to fit the bore no matter how hard the alloy, even if the bullets were a thou or so undersized!

Meaning, my .452"/.45 ACP stuff is on the ragged edge of needing the potential for an FCD 'improved' case fit but the bullets work well and the FCD does not drag on the finished rounds - well, except on the occasional thickish cases, but I never noticed even those being any less accurate than the others. But, with a metal to metal fit, even .001" makes a BIG difference in how chambering feels if not much on how it shoots!

The base, or heel, of any bullet is critical to accuracy and lead bullets are quite easy to damage so a seater with a sliding bullet guide is an asset to straight entry into the case. When I started loading cast such dies were still decades away so I started with Lyman's M dies with the two diameter plus a flare expander because it allows the user to set bullets fully in the mouth of the charged cases with no danger of shearing the critical base. I still do it that way but IF I didn't have all of my M dies, the Hornady style would probably be my seater choice too.

[wallenba]

The rifle FCD's also lend themselves to easy modification. I was able to make an FCD for my
8x56r Steyr that I seat a .334 (sized down from the Lee 338 mold). I ordered the medium die body and a 338 collet from Lee. Then I just reduced the collet in length until it worked.
Here's a link to that post with pics. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=111069