M1903A3 firing cast boolits

[jrhoney]

So I have a pair of milspec Springfield M1903A3s, both by Remington. The only difference is that on has a 2 groove barrel and the other a 4 groove barrel. No I know with jacketed bullets, they shoot pretty much the same. But with lead hard cast being a different beast. I was wondering if the 4 groove would perform better than the 2 groove because of the greater bearing surface. I need a new sidearm in 45 ACP and I need to sell one. But I'd like to hang on to the one that'll shoot cast lead better.

What do you all think?

[skeet1]

I have a four groove and it shoots very well but I understand that the two grooves shoot just as well and maybe better with lead.

Ken

[Czech_too]

I have a two groove with which I'm currently trying out some cast boolit loads. I have to say that I am impressed with the results so far. Now if I could only get the Yugo 24/47 to do half as well.

[1Shirt]

My 2 groove shoots well with preference on heavy blts. Loves the 311284, (fat).
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Ben]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/88.jpg

[Char-Gar]

I have Remington 4 groove and a SC 4 groove and they do well with cast. I also have a Remington 2 groove fitted to a Krag action and it also does well with cast. I think the advantage of one type over another is largely theoretical.

I would keep the rifle I like best and sell the other without looking down the barrel.

[Ben]

jrhoney

If you experiment a good bit with cast loads, either would probably shoot much better than most of the people who would fire the rifle.

[MKastning]

I would also probably lean toward the two groove, or the one you like best then work up something that works.

I shoot two groove 1903A3 in CBA matches, and they do pretty well.
Mine likes the Lyman 311299, but the 4 groove rifles I shoot against seem to fare better with the fatter boolits. (.314)

100yd 5 shot groups can be well under an inch with these old rifles and cast bullets, with or without optics.

Nice group Ben!

[Larry Gibson]

Keep the 4 groove barreled one. Slug the barrel of both with a soft bullet. Look at the diameter of both. The 2 groove will be oval and the 4 groove still round. You won't see much difference out to 200 yards but beyond the better balanced bullet will shoot better. That's not theory as i've tested it with numerous '03 with 2 and 4 groove barrels side by side over the years. If you don't shoot longer ranges with cast then it probably won't matter. The 2 groove barrel was a cost cutting method of war production. Many think they tested out as accurately as 4 grooves. That wasn't the case. They tested within accuracy "specifications" for use with ball '06 ammo.

Consider this; if 2 groove barrels are cheaper to make than 4 groove barrels then why isn't any manufacturer using them? Also consider if 2 groove barrels are as accurate as 4 groove barrels then why aren't match shooters using them? If they are more accurate with cast bullets then why aren't the cast bullet bench rest shooters using them? The answers are obvious; keep the 4 groove.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

jrhoney

If you experiment a good bit with cast loads, either would probably shoot much better than most of the people who would fire the rifle.

True........... Consider what molds you have and the velocity range you intend to shoot in. Common Lyman, RCBS etc. molds will give better service in the 1500 to 2100 fps velocity range in two groove barrels.

[W.R.Buchanan]

If my 03A3 EVER delivers a group like the one shown above, I will be jumping up and down for weeks to come. Ben, I am truly impressed!

That's a damn fine group. I'd frame it, and brag frequently ! In fact I might even carry it with me in my wallet.

I have an 03A3 barreled action with a 2 groove Rem barrel. I have mounted a Lyman#48 on it and it will be getting a Dayton-Traister trigger. The gun will be wearing a Griffin & Howe style sporter stock and a Turner Sling when complete. It will not be getting a scope!

I intend on shooting our short range silhoutte matches at the Ojai Valley Gun Club with 311299's

I feel the G&H remodeled Springfield Rifle is the epitome of the American Sporting Rifle.

Whelan said "the .30-06 is never a mistake" Experience should teach you to heed the advise of them that knows.

Randy

[Ben]

Randy ,

Good luck with your rifle build and keep us posted on your progress.

Ben

[Char-Gar]

Mr. Buchannan.. Best of luck with your rifle build. A few years back I took a Smith-Corona 03A3 action and installed a new 4 groove Smith-Corona Barrel. The stock was a good quality fiddle back claro walnut in the NRA Sporter pattern. The rifle wears a long slide Lyman 48 and has a Timmy trigger. The metal was done in a brush 400 finish.

I am so happy with the finished product and it will shoot either cast or condom bullets far better than I can hold.

In late 46 and early 47 The American rifleman ran a series of articles on various cartridges. The January 47 article was written by Towsend Whelen and the title was "The 30-06 Is Never A Mistake". That is the source of the frequent quote by Whelen.

When you are done with your project, you will have a great rifle. It takes allot of slow hand polishing, but you can take all of those rough tool marks off of an 03A3 action and barrel until it will be as smooth and slick as a good vintage 03.

Have fun and good shooting....

[Ben]

Charger ,

Would love for you to share a pic of your rifle with all of us.

Ben

[shotman]

if you want to really see what a 2 verse 4 will do try the rem acclerator, the 4 will shoot the 2 wont . Sold my 2

[Char-Gar]

Here is what I have in the way of pics of the NRA Sporter

[leadman]

charger, that is one beautiful rifle!

I bought several old guns at one time for $300. In the pile was a Smith-corona 03a3 in very bad shape. The C stock was worked over into a sporter and it was drilled and tapped for a scope.
A member here sold me a nice Leupold base and rings for it and I mounted an old Weaver 10X target scope on it. bore is not the greatest but I do have nos barrel to install if I feel the need.

Soon as my hand heals from surgery I am going to start on refinishing it. Won't look like yours since I can't afford to replace the stock, but will be better.

These rifles just have so much character compared to a new black rifle. Plus the history they have seen.

[Char-Gar]

leadman.. When I was younger 03s and 03A3s were plentiful and cheap. I have several and fired tens of thousands of rounds through them. As time went on, I built up several 03s and 03A3 in to sporters. I got to where I could almost think the bullet to the target I was so bonded to those rifles. Firing one was and still is just a reflex.

One day, I was looking through all of my gun parts and found the Lyman 45 long slide and a milled 03A3 trigger guard and floor plate. I thought about selling them, but being without a sporter 03 decided to build up one last Springfield. This one would have to see me out.

The pics are the results of the effort. It took me about two years as I tried to acquire the parts, and have the work done I didn't want to do myself. The hardest part to come by was the barrel band. That took a while to run down.

I did end up taking down the rear receiver ring sight dovetail to about 1/3 of it's original height. Without that, I was very limited to the cast bullet loads I could use without installing a higher front sight. Many hours of hand polishing went into removing all of the machine marks from the action and barrel. When I started with an 03A3 action some folks chided me for not hunting us a "real 03" because no matter how much work I put into the rifle, it would still be a sows ear. Well, with enough patience and elbow grease, that sows ear can be turned into a silk purse.

I sent Great American Gunstock $300.00 (which was my limit) and told them to give me the best wood they could for that price. I did specific fiddle back grain. I did put that high gloss finish on on the wood as it really high lights the grain. I am thinking about stripping the finish and going back with a hand rubbed BLO finish. At this point, I am just thinking about it.

Best of luck with you Smith-Corona. Quite a bit can be done to detail and reshape an old stock during the refinishing process.

[Ben]

Chargar :

" Being without a sporter 03 decided to build up one last Springfield....This one would have to see me out. "

_____________________________________________


You picked a FINE one to do that very thing with. Thank you for taking the time to post the photos. I have no doubt that it shoots just as good as it looks.

Ben

[leadman]

My stock is already heavily sanded and had a recoil pad installed. The pad is more of a brick now, but I have a new one to install.
I'll do what I can now to make it presentable and shootable, but if I ever get rich again I'll do more later.

I have a CMP Remington 1903a3 that is in great shape and just installed a scant stock on my Remington 1903. The stock that was on it was sanded to death but was solid. My friend gave me the scant stock, it needed a few small repairs and refinished but it looks great on the rifle.

[ELFEGO BACA]

I am happy with the accuracy of my 2 groove Remington 03A3 using a 150 grain flat point made in a group buy mold purchased here.

[Char-Gar]

Ben, it shoots very well with jacketed and cast. I took lots of care bedding the metal into the wood and shot it extensively. I then glass bedded it and shot is again with the same loads. I managed to get a 1/4 inch improvement in group size. Frankly I was expecting more, but am please it do so well without the glass.

On a good day the rifle will turn in 1 to 1.25 MOA groups. I am talking ten shots groups pretty much on demand. On a bad day that will stretch out to 1.5 MOA. Five shot groups will be less of course. The rifle is very stable and reliable. The day to day performance doesn't provide any surprises and 'what the hell is this' experiences.

[mroliver77]

Here is my 03A3 set in a Springfield .22 stock. Weaver K4 in Leopold QD mounts. 4 groove barrel with some wear but it still shoots good! Classic deer rig! Jay
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/2074dfe845f98b06.jpg

[Ben]

Ben, it shoots very well with jacketed and cast. I took lots of care bedding the metal into the wood and shot it extensively. I then glass bedded it and shot is again with the same loads. I managed to get a 1/4 inch improvement in group size. Frankly I was expecting more, but am please it do so well without the glass.

On a good day the rifle will turn in 1 to 1.25 MOA groups. I am talking ten shots groups pretty much on demand. On a bad day that will stretch out to 1.5 MOA. Five shot groups will be less of course. The rifle is very stable and reliable. The day to day performance doesn't provide any surprises and 'what the hell is this' experiences.

Charger:

You've got yourself a real " KEEPER ". Enjoy your rifle, thanks for taking the time to share your photos and comments. I always love to see ( and hear) about an accurate and nice looking rifle.

Ben

[405]

As to the OP's? If both bores are similar in conditon including throat/leade wear, I'd keep the 4 groove. But, the only way to tell is to shoot some cast and see which shoots better. Be a good idea to shoot a couple of different bullets and try a couple of velocities with each bullet.

Extrapolating cast bullet accuracy potential based on the 2 or 4 groove question alone is nearly impossible.

I have an 03- with 4 groove and two 03A3s- one with 2 groove and the other with 4 groove. Each is in original configuration- sans the likely arsenal check/refurb that most all were subjected to. All three bores are in similar, excellent condition with little if any visible throat/leade wear. The 4 grooves (03 & 03A3) shoot cast a little better than the 03A3 2 groove. My favorite load for all three- Lym 314299 sized to .310 at about 14-15 BHN over light charge of 5744 to a MV of 1450.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Chargar: About that barrel band? is it a stock barrel band or is it something you made?

Is it influencing the bedding in that area?

The reason I ask is, that barrel band would fit nicely into the large Groove in my barrel that I will have to sand/grind out if I am going to use a regular style sporter stock.

A full barrel band over the sporter stock would be a unique touch. Similar to the M2 stock shown above.

Is there a posibility you could show a pic of the front half of the gun or a side view of the whole gun so we could see the overall lines of the piece?

There is a company on Ebay that makes a G&H style Springfield Sporter stock. I have been loking at that one as it has the shadowline check piece, and has the right proportions. They will make it in any type of wood you're willing to pay for. I'm looking for a nicely figured walnut, that will take a good Winchester red color.

Here is a pic of the bolt alterationI did on my M96 for target shooting (a work in progress with along way to go) The knob is interchangable to a 1" round knob but the big teardrop works best with the cock on closing M96. The alteration of the Springfield is still looking for the right design.

Randy

[Char-Gar]

Mr Buchannan... The original NRA Sporter used the same band as the M2 (22 LR) conversion of the 03A3. This band had a groove in the middle all around the band. A close look at Mroliver77s rifle will show you the correct band for both the M2 and the NRA Sporter.

In fact the only difference between the stock on the NRA Sporter and the M2 is the M2 has grasping grooves on the forend the sporter does not. I noticed that somebody has fluted the comb on MrOliver's rifle. I don't believe those are original, I know the Sporter didn't have flutes on the comb.

I did come up with the correct M2 band, but the band I used was from a T model 03 Target rifle. These were cut, welded and reshaped from Enfield 1917 bands by Springfield arsenal. You can still see the eagle stamp from when it fit a 1917. The internal and external dimensions of this band are the same as the M2 band, but heavier without the groove which removes metal.

I had both bands, but chose to go with the heavier and more solid one. The band does not put pressure on the barrel. It is there just for the sling swivel. I glass bedded the action and the first couple of inches of the barrel. The rest of the barrel is floated and the band does not interfer with that.

This didn't require any grinding on the underside of the band to keep it from pressing on the barrel as the original M2, NRA Sporter and T barrels had a straighter taper than the military barrels. I put a NOS 4 groove Smith Corona military barrel on the rifle.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Chargar: I just bet I can make one that clamps onto the stock but has clearance over the barrel. That way the sling wouldn't influence the barrel.

I would prefer to have the clamping block that the screw goes thru on the bottom actually have a hole below it for a QD sling swivel. I don't think I will be able to buy one like that. It would be a fun project in the shop.

I'm still up in the air about this detail. I may or maynot do it. It certainly adds character to the rifle, and lets face it this type of gun is all about character. The fiddleback grain of your stock is full of character.

It would also save me having to remove the barrel to grind out the divot/groove which is very noticable.

I would love to see a right side full length pic of your rifle to see the overall lines.

Thank you for the info.

Randy

[Char-Gar]

My camera is in San Antonio with the wife this week.

It is easy to fabricate a block that replaces the existing swivel that will accept a detachable swivel. I little time with files, a drill press and the job is done. I have done it before.

There should never be any need to grind a divot in the barrel to keep it from pressing on the the bottom of the barrel band. If such a thing is necessary, it is easier to take metal from the top underside of the band. Most often it won't be an issue.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Chargar: The barrel already has a turned groove about 1/2" wide and .010 deep in it. I think they used a steady rest on it while turning it. I figured it was used as clearance for the barrel band in the firstplace, however on re examination it is too far out on the barrel for that.

The machining marks on this barrel are pretty bad. I am a machinist by trade and I have turned alot of Cro-Moly and I know it is not easy to get a finish on, and considering this barrel was made in Sept of '43 I doubt anybody really cared about the overall finish.

We have much better tooling to turn this stuff nowadays.

The challenge will be to fair the lowspot in without destroying any of the proof marks etc.

Luckily all the stamped marks are very deep.

I was in San Antonio for 3 years from '69-72. I liked it there. I was at Randolph AFB. That was a while back. Are you near Brownsville? Good hunting down around there.

Randy

[Char-Gar]

The late production Remington 03A3 barrels were turned that way for a steady rest so the metal could be hogged off. The earlier ones did not have that steady rest groove. Smith-Corona 03A3 barrels don't have that groove. They were made by High Standard and are 4 groove. A few of the very early ones had six grooves. Only Remington barrels used 2 grooves later in production along with that steady rest groove.

If the truth be know the Smith-Corona 03A3s were better rifles all around, the barrels certainly were.

I have fitted such a Remington barrel with the steady rest groove to a Krag action to build a rifle I am working on now. The barrel was bobbed at the rear and rethreaded for the Krag. Enough of the chambers was removed so the Krag reamer could clean out the old 30-06 chamber.

I removed the the tool marks from the barrel the old fashion way, with strips of emery cloth. I started to use barrel band on the new stock, but changed my mind. The Krag action is only held in the wood by the two screws in the trigger guard which is not very stable.

I opted to drill and tap the bottom of the receiver ring for another screw. I turned a escutcheon to fit into the wood for the new screw. I made the stock with a for end short enough for that steady rest groove to be just in front of the fore end. I will place a barrel band at that place for the sling swivel.

I live in the town of Rancho Viejo which abuts Brownsville. I was raised in Brownsville, but lived all over during my working years. This area bears very little resemblance to what it did when you were here and I was growing up. The population has mushroomed and far, far less places to hunt. Much of what little native brush is left in Cameron Country has been taken by the Feds for wildlife refuges. I am glad to see it saved from development and exploitation.

You can no longer go along the Rio Grand river as I did in the old days. Far, far to dangerous for that anymore. Folks who go there do so heavily armed with their heads mounted on swivels.

[mroliver77]

By golly charger, I never noticed that fluted comb. I thought I had something there.

I have an 03 that is one of the first nickle receivers with a very nice 4 groove barrel. Somebody did a nice polish and bluing job although the receiver has a bit of plumb to it. It has a 4X Lyman scope and is bedded in a nice walnut sporter stock from back in the day. It shoots so well it is scarey. Only problem is it has a right hand cheek piece and an UGLY carving of a deer in the butt section. I thought to bed the 03 in the M2 stock and put the 03A3 in a repro scant stock. I thought of filling the scope mount holes and having it re parked. Not trying to hide anything but complete guns are getting pricey around here. Then again that scope sure makes things easier.
Jay

[Char-Gar]

Well, you do have something..a very nice rifle!

[perimedik]

I too have a sporterized 1903A3 . My uncle bought it surplus in the 50's after coming back from Korea.
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff170/perimedik/1903A3-1.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff170/perimedik/1903A3-03.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff170/perimedik/1903A3-2.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff170/perimedik/1903A3-04.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff170/perimedik/100_1157.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff170/perimedik/100_1381_1.jpg

It is matching barrel and receiver. He pulled the stock and dropped a sport stock to hunt "the .06 is a damn fine cartridge" he chucked the original stock. :(

Anyway I am new here as well, would the Lee C309 150F (gas checked) be suitable for the 1903A3? I have various powders I could use.

IIRC you need to reduce loads for cast bullets? Where could I find this resource/starting load data?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Perimedic: That is a very good looking and cool rifle.

It is a minimalists Sporter conversion with just a stock and sling addition, but the stock is very nicely done., and the look is perfect. You have a very classic 03A3 sporter.

My barreled action has a serial number very close to yours. My barrel is marked 9-43 which puts it one month newer than yours..

Mine had the rear sight gooned beyond repair so I drilled and tapped the receiver for a Lyman #48 and installed it.

I haven't gortten a stock for it yet but am leaning towards a G&H repop that is commonly on Ebay.

I think these rifles are the quintesential "American Bolt Action Sporting Rifle" They came along well before the M70 Winchester became the "Riflemans Rifle"

Somewhere I have a picture of Ernest Hemmingway in his younger days, in the sitting position with sling, with his 03 Sporter. It has a Lyman sight. And is one of the pictures that define this type of rifle. This is what a sporting rifle was before Scopes became standard issue, and back when a 200 yard shot was a big deal. These guns will live for as long as there are guns allowed.

I use XMR 5744 exclusively for cast bullet loads for my .30 caliber rifles. With a 190-200 cast bullet in the .30-06 I use 25 gr. For the lighter bullet I would back that off to about 20 gr and start back up from there until the accuracy went haywire. best accuracy will probably be between 1700-1900 fps.

The bullet must be a Gas Check design if you are going to run it above 1500 fps. The Lee bullet I have is .309-190 which is just a longer version of what you have. It shoots well. I also like Lyman 311299, and it is my goto bullet for both .308 and .30-06. I tend to like the heavier boolits in my .308 and 1951 Husky 06, and will continue this when the 03A3 is up and running.

Sometimes the Lee moulds drop bullets a little small for some guns. The bullet may or maynot have good accuracy when sized to .309. Sometimes .310 is where it needs to be.

You can get good cast boolit data from Lyman #49 the current Lyman reloading manual. There is alot of data for cast boolits in .308's -.30-06 in that manual.

Also another good source for data for these guns comes from 2 separtate isssues of Rifle Magazine, "Fall of 2010 Special Edition" has an article by Mike Venturino about .30 cal cast boolits with much load data, and Rifle of November 2009 has an article also by Venturino on loading for the 03A3, with both cast and jacketed bullet loads specifically for 03A3's.

Both are well worth the few bucks to get as the data is condensed and doesn't appear grouped this way in manuals. You have to hunt alot more to extract it from manuals. Back issues are available from Wolfe Publishing. (google search will get you there.

I feel this cartridge is one of the standards of centerfire rifle shooting, and arguably one of, if not "the" most versitile round ever made (My.02) it is certainly entertaining to shoot and load for.

You'll have fun for sure. And you've got a damn nice rifle to shoot with.

Randy