Way cool gun from USAF!

[Four Fingers of Death]

45Colt/410 Shtoshell revolver. Awesome looking bit of kit!

http://www.shotpistol.com/pages/M4-410.aspx

[MtGun44]

I'm amazed at the popularity of these monsters.

Also - LOL, a BIG diff between USFA and USAF !! :bigsmyl2:


Bill

[WARD O]

Would someone explain just what is the attraction with these items?????

Ward

[Curly James]

I think it is mostly a lack of knowledge regarding ballistics..............

[madsenshooter]

That's USFA, FFOD, you had me looking, since I'm a USAF vet. Thought they might have replaced the 38s in the pilot's kit with something cool.

[jrhoney]

That's USFA, FFOD, you had me looking, since I'm a USAF vet. Thought they might have replaced the 38s in the pilot's kit with something cool.

That is exactly what I thought. My dad is retired Air Force with 28 years of service and I thought he might be interested but like the rest of us he understands ballistics and the fundamental laws of physics. Interesting choice by USFA to put an AR muzzle brake on the front...More for looks than anything else I imagine.

[white eagle]

here come da judge

[Doc Highwall]

That is a M-6 with out the wire buttstock.

[1Shirt]

It's ugly, lacks personality, and at best have very limited application. A high priced novelty!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[gray wolf]

It's ugly, It's ugly, It's ugly, It's ugly, It's ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly,

Did I say I didn't care for the looks ?

[jerry_from_ct]

A matter of necessity, I would guess, always thought these would make a nice hiking/snake/survival gun.

I am sure the guys in the Southwest would appreciate one of these when running across a pesky Rattler.

Not a big-bore hand-cannon, wasn't meant to be.
Not a super accurate hunting gun, wasn't meant to be that either.

[35remington]

Given the light weight of a .410 slug, and the loss of velocity occasioned by having a barrel that is not only very short, but has bigger holes than a colander, I get the impression that they've come up with an extremely heavy, low capacity .380 automatic.

That's good for snakes and pigeons in the barn.

What a revelation!

I can think of a lot better defensive pistols, quite frankly, that have superior accuracy, controllability, firepower and ballistics and pack it all into a much smaller gun.

But we gotta cover all them niches, don't we? I'd like to see muzzle velocity of the "00" buck from this revolver, too. I'm prepared to be underwhelmed.

I'll admit the factory 45 Colt can be respectable, but I don't think the velocity will exceed much over 700 fps or so, and self defense use is of course all it's good for. Forget the 410 stuff, probably, unless the energies developed are a whole lot better than I think they will be.

[Four Fingers of Death]

If I carried it, I think the first two cylinders would be loaded with 410, then the rest with 45Colts. Be ok as an upclose, ****e hit the fan sort of gun. Looks so much better than the Judge, probably four times the price though. The Judge is finally on sale in Australia only one shop is carrying it exclusively apparently.

[Bill*]

Hmmm...towards the bottom of the page linked in post#1 they show a load sequence possibility. Most info I've seen would Not recommend a "warning shot" Interesting

[Four Fingers of Death]

At our range, if you start with a miss, we shout 'you don't need to give a warning shot!'

[MT Gianni]

It looks like they got the grips and hammer down pat. I'll pass on the rest.

[tek4260]

What is it good for?? At least with a Taurus you don't have to point it down to cock it to keep a shell from falling out and/or binding up the action(and I hate a Taurus). These shot shell revolvers are a novelty at best, but my God have they sold good. Bad guys and innocent bystanders beware! You might have to be treated for a gunshot wound. Only tweezers and peroxide required though!

[Shooter6br]

Wee doggies! Just looking at it the business end would be a good crime deterant

[jrhoney]

And with S&W coming out with their new .410/45 Colt/45 ACP revolver, this thing might not last too long. I spot a future oddity and potential collectable for the future.

[Longwood]

I am sure the guys in the Southwest would appreciate one of these when running across a pesky Rattler.

.

Right!
Our rattlers are so fast we need shotguns to bag them.:bigsmyl2:

[Geraldo]

"Helix balance", wow. The marketing department should get an award for that.

Other than the fact that I have lived long enough to see a flash hider on a SAA frame, I really can't get excited about any of it. It should make a great companion piece to the Stoeger SBS 12ga with picatinny rail.

[bowfin]

Well, we could just pare down the firearms selections to just a half dozen if we wanted to go at the shooting sports from a truly logical standpoint. A Glock .40 and a Ruger Super Blackhawk will cover 99+% of all centerfire handgun "needs", so when are we going to wake up and toss everything else?

It was manufactured to sell. If it does that, it has fulfilled its purpose. I also am loathe to say what someone else might need or should want.

[klcarroll]

If the mission is to create a “hiking/snake/survival gun”; ….then let’s look at the issue logically.

First of all, you want a caliber that is capable of putting down a serious threat, ….two legged or four. For this you need a heavy, solid projectile with good muzzle energy, or a competent load of buckshot: …..NOT a load of birdshot that will only serve to severely irritate anything over 30 pounds!

…..So forget the .410! Most 2 ½” loads dispense only ½ ounce of shot, and out of a short barreled revolver, you will be lucky if that shot load reaches 600 fps!! Additionally, the 110 grain .410 slug is useless! (Shoot ‘em twice with a .22LR for far more effect!!)

To those who point to the ability to chamber 45 Long Colt as a redeeming feature, I would respond; “…Then do the job right, and load all six with REAL rounds!”

If the ability to chamber a shotshell is really important, then let’s do it right! Let’s stop fooling around with ,410 revolvers, and get someone to build a REAL “Shot Handgun”!

How about an O/U pistol chambered for 3” 20 Gauge, with 6 inch rifled barrels?? …..That would allow you to dispense two of the Remington “Buckhammer” one ounce (440 grain!!) slugs, or two 18 pellet #2 buck (.150” dia.) buckshot loads; ….My experience with short barreled shotguns tells me that a six inch tube without a cylinder gap should allow you to get into the 800 fps range with these loads!

NOW we’re talking about some usable “horsepower”! .:bigsmyl2:

Kent

[buck1]

I have always been under whelmed by the .410 . BUT I am always happy to see the industry making money and promoting new sales.

[bigboredad]

I think it has already served its purpose. It has people looking at their website and once there they check out to see what else they offer. Just because most on this board knows about USFA doesn't mean the rest of the world does and there are tons of new shooters these days. Also the new shooters aren't near the knowledge of all the experts on this board so I'm sure a lot will like the looks and buy it and most will never shoot it. Now I'm sure that if the guys over as USFA would of asked all the experts over here about the design they would of seen the gross error of their ways and shelved the idea jmho

[jerry_from_ct]

Right!
Our rattlers are so fast we need shotguns to bag them.:bigsmyl2:


I heard that...................;)


Brought to you by the "Rattlesnake Eradication Society". dedicated to barefoot desert waking for all.

[tek4260]

The top 4' section of an old 102" whip antenna will beat a .410 hands down on snakes.

[jerry_from_ct]

If the mission is to create a “hiking/snake/survival gun”; ….then let’s look at the issue logically.

First of all, you want a caliber that is capable of putting down a serious threat, ….two legged or four.
Kent

I think anyone from Illinois has only one serious threat, their politicians.:-?

Come on, a need for some perspective is in order, we are talking about taking a stroll through the woods gun, capable of dispatching let's say a snake. no doubt a 2 1/2" .410 will do that more efficiently than the sub .410 cal shot capsules that were so highly marketed for years.

Survival, in the context of small game hunting, squirrel, raccoon, possum, it would fit the bill. Wolf, Coyote, they generally head in the opposite direction from the bang alone. A bear is an issue even with a Rifle, so your on your own there. As far as a two legged miscreant looking for trouble, a face full of bird-shot would defuse that situation in short order, getting shot usually does that, regardless of the weapon used.

It's a niche gun, same folks who don't care for it probably thought the Savage 24's were ridiculous also.

Different strokes for different folks, period.

[Longwood]

I heard that...................;)


Brought to you by the "Rattlesnake Eradication Society". dedicated to barefoot desert waking for all.

I do my share.
Protected? Who cares. I am up to around 15 and I only shot one.
A shovel or the Caveman technique works well enough for me.
Rock, rock, another rock.
Last one was last month.

[klcarroll]

I think anyone from Illinois has only one serious threat, their politicians.:-?............


You'd take the issue a bit more seriously if you had been walking with me on the day that I surprised a pair of deer poachers on my rural property: .....Have you ever had a compound bow pointed at you and pulled to full draw???


Kent

[Geraldo]

Come on, a need for some perspective is in order, we are talking about taking a stroll through the woods gun, capable of dispatching let's say a snake.

I guess one's definition of a snake load depends on where that person lives. Down here the Burmese and African Rock Pythons are a tad large to shoot at with .410. I find that an F250 4x4 is best for them, the smaller ones I just try to avoid. ;)

[MtGun44]

.....Have you ever had a compound bow pointed at you and pulled to full draw???


I am always armed on my land. And in that case, the guy with the bow would have been quickly
looking where I was NOT, and have a .45 ACP muzzle pointed at him. Probably with
two very quick muzzle flashes, too.

That is a total threat to me, and I would shoot the guy, very quickly. Absolutely unacceptable
behavior, esp when tresspassing.

Bill

[klcarroll]

.....Have you ever had a compound bow pointed at you and pulled to full draw???


I am always armed on my land. And in that case, the guy with the bow would have been quickly
looking where I was NOT, and have a .45 ACP muzzle pointed at him. Probably with
two very quick muzzle flashes, too.

That is a total threat to me, and I would shoot the guy, very quickly. Absolutely unacceptable
behavior, esp when tresspassing.

Bill



Well.............. It kinda went that way....... Sorta.........

.....Except that I'm clumsy; ….. and the only time I resemble John Wayne/Clint Eastwood/Chuck Norris is during my moments of idle daydream fantasy.

Consequently, my effort to dive behind the highly questionable “cover” of a bush turned into a stumble, followed by falling on my face, …..followed by a roll several yards down the hill.

This brilliant tactical move did, however, spoil any chance my assailant had for a good shot; ….and by the time I had stopped rolling, I had managed to draw my old Colt Commander.

Seeing that I was armed, totally beyond predicting, and probably crazy; ...My two would-be attackers took off running: ….And not wanting to do any more “showing off” (…and because I didn’t want to be charged in court as “The Aggressor”), I let them go.

No shots fired.

Everyone lived to consider their mistakes.

....A good example of how the mere presence of a gun can save lives.


Kent

[Four Fingers of Death]

The judge was bought out to protect South American judges from being rushed by cartel assasins in court or getting out of the car. They would take the sting out of an attack and ensure a hit when fired by a surprised 'almost a victim' user.

In that context, I reckon they would be ok. A 45 Colt round nose out of a proper rifled Bbl would do a better job, but, you just gotta hit the guy first who is running at you with little or no warning.

When you plonk it down next to a Peacemaker it doesn't look as balanced, but it wasn't bought out to be a better looking gun than a Peacemaker.

These South Americans have had lots of experience handling desperate bad a$$ed cartel members and the concept obviously works for them. Stop a charge without drilling a seriously danngerous bullet through one of the white hats in court.

[NickSS]

Imhave shot several Judges and am unimpressed both with shot shells and 45 colt loads. Neither gives much beyound about 15 yards so definately a defence only gun as far as a 410 for defence it is enimic at best. I personally can not see any need for them at all. As for snake shot I have for years used speer shot capsules in a 38 or 357 mag for that purpose. They work fine out to about six to 8 feet andy further away and I ignore the poor snake and generally they either just sit there or slither away. If they get closer a dose of shot from my revolver does the trick and I still have a handgun that works out to 50 yards or more.

[canyon-ghost]

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/contenders/7mm138.jpg

At our range, we have rattlesnakes. This is one of the 410s I carry along. Distance is 25 feet to cut their heads off. So is this ugly? It's got some sharp adjustable sights and a choke. I do always take the .410 to go shooting, it's necessary.

Ron

[Four Fingers of Death]

Imhave shot several Judges and am unimpressed both with shot shells and 45 colt loads. Neither gives much beyound about 15 yards so definately a defence only gun

I think the designers had other side of the desk type range in mind to protect the judges.

[Longwood]

If it is for self defense, I have to wonder why on earth it is a single action?

[Four Fingers of Death]

If it is for self defense, I have to wonder why on earth it is a single action?

Maybe thats because SAs are pretty much all they make. A DA would be a better bet. I think they (the South Americans) had in mind a gun that would be pretty devestating up close and personal and ran out of steam before it reached the crowd in the courtroom.

[wellfedirishman]

That looks like something a Steampunk might have thought up. Interesting to say the least. I don't care for the looks but it would make one heck of a snake disposal tool.

[rintinglen]

Luke Skywalker meet John Wayne.

[jerry_from_ct]

You'd take the issue a bit more seriously if you had been walking with me on the day that I surprised a pair of deer poachers on my rural property: .....Have you ever had a compound bow pointed at you and pulled to full draw???


Kent

Geez, somehow went went from a niche "pop" pistol to an all-out assault by those engaged in illegal activity.

Bad behavior abounds, I guess the "land of Lincoln" is becoming the south Bronx.

My "stab" at Illinois politicos was hardly meant to be personally disrespectful........

No offense to you...........

[jerry_from_ct]

I guess one's definition of a snake load depends on where that person lives. Down here the Burmese and African Rock Pythons are a tad large to shoot at with .410. I find that an F250 4x4 is best for them, the smaller ones I just try to avoid. ;)

Burmese and African Rock Pythons, holy ****, I agree, maybe a 10 gauge auto-loader and some Claymores..................:bigsmyl2:

[jerry_from_ct]

At our range, we have rattlesnakes. This is one of the 410s I carry along. Distance is 25 feet to cut their heads off. So is this ugly? It's got some sharp adjustable sights and a choke. I do always take the .410 to go shooting, it's necessary.

Ron


Thank you, No-one ever said a .410 is a perfect gun for snakes or anything else for that matter.

People have a tendency to get lost in that "Valhalla" of the perfect gun, guess what, you never have the perfect gun, and even if you think you do, someone will be ready to tell you why it "ain't".

[klcarroll]

......My "stab" at Illinois politicos was hardly meant to be personally disrespectful........

No offense to you...........


No offense taken.

...My reply was only intended to illustrate the point that you don't always know what you will run across during "just a walk in the woods".


Kent

[jerry_from_ct]

No offense taken.

...My reply was only intended to illustrate the point that you don't always know what you will run across during "just a walk in the woods".


Kent

Can't argue there, check this out.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-11/us/connecticut.mountain.lion_1_mountain-lion-suv-driver-greenwich?_s=PM:US


Holy Chit....................

[jerry_from_ct]

Well.............. It kinda went that way....... Sorta.........

.....Except that I'm clumsy; ….. and the only time I resemble John Wayne/Clint Eastwood/Chuck Norris is during my moments of idle daydream fantasy.

Consequently, my effort to dive behind the highly questionable “cover” of a bush turned into a stumble, followed by falling on my face, …..followed by a roll several yards down the hill.

This brilliant tactical move did, however, spoil any chance my assailant had for a good shot; ….and by the time I had stopped rolling, I had managed to draw my old Colt Commander.

Seeing that I was armed, totally beyond predicting, and probably crazy; ...My two would-be attackers took off running: ….And not wanting to do any more “showing off” (…and because I didn’t want to be charged in court as “The Aggressor”), I let them go.

No shots fired.

Everyone lived to consider their mistakes.

....A good example of how the mere presence of a gun can save lives.


Kent

Congrats................... still breathing at the end of the encounter, with a " stumble-bum" or not, I call that a "Win".

[tek4260]

Seems that USFA had enough and did away with their forum. So I guess they didn't like the response this one garnered.

http://forum.usfirearms.com/

[jerry_from_ct]

I do my share.
Protected? Who cares. I am up to around 15 and I only shot one.
A shovel or the Caveman technique works well enough for me.
Rock, rock, another rock.
Last one was last month.

How re-miss of me, The "RES" is sponsored by Jose Cuervo and La Raza, no check this month...................:drinks:.

Guess I will just have to wait till next month to buy that Taurus lever action rotary .410 rifle everyone speaks so highly of.............. [smilie=w:

[FN in MT]

Few years back when the Taurus Judge was all the rage...someone posted a thorough test of ALL available buckshot and slug loads for the .410 through the Judge. To say the results were less than spectacular would be putting it mildly.

Possibly with the .410 handgun craze the ammo makers have come up with better slug and buckshot loads.

IMHO these things are great sellers for the manufacturers...and probably decent profit makers...WHY we have them by S&W and now USFA. WONDERFUL snake guns for sure. But for personal defense?

Apparently a lot of uninformed..."Style over Substance" sort of buyers out there with ready money to buy all sorts of items of dubious worth.

FN in MT

[klcarroll]

Why is it that there are multiple companies willing to make various "Niche Guns", but none of them want to do a re-make of my beloved Webleys???

...Am I totally alone?? .....Wouldn't ANY of you guys buy a Webley reproduction done in modern steel, and chambered for a modern caliber??


Kent

[Geraldo]

Burmese and African Rock Pythons, holy ****, I agree, maybe a 10 gauge auto-loader and some Claymores..................:bigsmyl2:

Claymores are too hard on the bananas and palms, but 12ga 00 buck or slugs will work on 9' pythons, hogs, and general miscreants. :Fire:

[HDS]

That's USFA, FFOD, you had me looking, since I'm a USAF vet. Thought they might have replaced the 38s in the pilot's kit with something cool.

I'd rather have one those than one of these.

[Geraldo]

Why is it that there are multiple companies willing to make various "Niche Guns", but none of them want to do a re-make of my beloved Webleys???

...Am I totally alone?? .....Wouldn't ANY of you guys buy a Webley reproduction done in modern steel, and chambered for a modern caliber??


Kent

Yeah, dang it, and where are those Merwin Hulberts the new company has been promising?

[klcarroll]

Yeah, dang it, and where are those Merwin Hulberts the new company has been promising?

OK! ......FINE!!! ......Pick on me!

.....I would think that THIS crowd would understand that Webley Collecting is a legitimate sickness, .....just like some of the illnesses suffered by others here.

(You all know the first symptom: ".....I just NEED one more........")



Kent

[Geraldo]

OK! ......FINE!!! ......Pick on me!

Kent

Pick on you :confused:

I'm all for short barreled .450 revolvers, it's just that I'd also like an 4" barreled MH in .44WCF with a skullcrusher frame. :guntootsmiley:

What about the niche market of Kent and Geraldo?

[klcarroll]

Pick on you :confused:

I'm all for short barreled .450 revolvers, it's just that I'd also like an 4" barreled MH in .44WCF with a skullcrusher frame. :guntootsmiley:

What about the niche market of Kent and Geraldo?



Oh! .... Sorry! .....When you started talking about Merwin Hulberts revolvers I thought that you were implying that my Webleys were that obscure!:bigsmyl2:


....Actually, as a fan of big-bore, turn-of-the-century revolvers, I have a passing familiarity with the Merwin Hulberts: .....I alway thought their "twist open" revolvers were particularly neat! (Talk about your advanced machining!! ....Particularly considering it was the 1880's!!!)

Kent

[Four Fingers of Death]

Oh! .... Sorry! .....When you started talking about Merwin Hulberts revolvers I thought that you were implying that my Webleys were that obscure!:bigsmyl2:


....Actually, as a fan of big-bore, turn-of-the-century revolvers, I have a passing familiarity with the Merwin Hulberts: .....I alway thought their "twist open" revolvers were particularly neat! (Talk about your advanced machining!! ....Particularly considering it was the 1880's!!!)

Kent

Apparently the M&H revolvers are back in production. I dread to think what they cost though.

Despite all of the advantages of big bore revolvers, I still think the 410 option is a sensible one for a judge sitting in a crowded court room, deep in thought regarding some weighty legal matter who was suddenly rushed by a would be assasin. It wouldn't matter if he was a bit wide, scrambling to get a few shots away with the 410. Miss with a 44 or a 45 in a packed courtroom and an innocent or two might get drilled. Easier to pick out a bit of buckshot that was running out of steam than a big a$$ed bullet, drilling right through ya and maybe someone else!

[klcarroll]

..........I still think the 410 option is a sensible one for a judge sitting in a crowded court room, deep in thought regarding some weighty legal matter who was suddenly rushed by a would be assasin. It wouldn't matter if he was a bit wide, scrambling to get a few shots away with the 410. Miss with a 44 or a 45 in a packed courtroom and an innocent or two might get drilled. Easier to pick out a bit of buckshot that was running out of steam than a big a$$ed bullet, drilling right through ya and maybe someone else!


I think that in this "niche" use, you make a good case: .....But I'd be willing to bet a case of beer that those revolbers used by those South American Judges are not encumbered by rifled barrels.

....Now THERE"S a weapon I would buy! ........A .410 Judge with a four inch smoothbore barrel!! (....Now if we can just convince our friends in the BATF to go out and play in traffic!)


(.....But I still want my "new production" Webley in 44 Special!! ...Is that too much to ask??)


Kent

[Whitworth]

Would someone explain just what is the attraction with these items?????

Ward

Yeah, I too would like an explanation as I don't get it either.

[white eagle]

doesn't take any talent just point and shoot

[bigboredad]

doesn't take any talent just point and shoot

BINGO[smilie=s:

[Four Fingers of Death]

doesn't take any talent just point and shoot

Thats precisely the point I was trying to make. They were designed to be used by people that had no talent in the handling of weapons and had to respond to a life threatening situation in an instant whilst sitting in front of a court room full of innocent bystanders.

With a 4" Judge loaded with any 410 shotshell, most of innocent bystanders would be out of the critical danger area, but not with any other weapon.

As to this monstrosity, the only use I can see for it is for Taurus collectors who have to have one of every Rossi product.

Judges are available her now. In Stainless Steel with a 6" barrel. I think I will have to get one just to see what the fuss is about! (No I will not be buying the rifle version).

I still haven't figured out why you need a lever to cycle a gun based on a double action pistola? Makes no kind of sense, unless there is some where that the DA revolver in a rifle form would be illegal (Like Australia), but a lever gun ok. Go figure.