looking for a...........

[jerry_from_ct]

Mold similar to a 147gr FMJ, bought some cast w/GC from someone a few years ago in .323 that looks just like the Nato 7.62mm.

I have been searching for that mold design in .308 and .323 cal, any suggestions ?

[onondaga]

For the .308, take a look at the Lee C312-155-2R

This can certainly be sized to fit a .308, I do it. It is a poor performer on game with the pointy nose, but very accurate in my rifle and the profile is very similar to the NATO FMJ:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=752956

My Sako .308 slugged at .307 so I size these boolits at .3095" and tumble lube with 45:45:10 Recluse before and after sizing. My neck sizing collet die is set so neck tension is correct for this bullet and bullets are not shaved or sized down upon seating. I use the Lee universal expander die to flair case mouths, I seat bullet to just touch the lands and only use a crimp to just close case mouth flair back to zero. I charge with H4895 to 2312 fps and the load groups 1/2 MOA for me. My alloy is #2 Lyman and Hornady gas checks.

They do suck on deer, 2 heart shots with this boolit and the animal did not even look surprised and jogged off over 100 yards before laying down. I actually thought my first shot was a miss as the deer continued to feed. Shot distance rangefinder checked at 314 yards.The wounds were piercing wounds, apparently delivering no shocking force at all.

I now use a flat nose 150 GC boolit in the .308 at 2200 fps for hunting with that rifle but the pointy one is more accurate.

Gary

[jerry_from_ct]

I looked at that before, thanks, the best way to describe these is a scaled down version of the bullet in the 5.45 x 39.

I have never seen a cast w/ such a sharp point.
will have to post some pics in the A.M.

[onondaga]

The mold makers take into consideration the utter uselessness of a pointy pointy bullet cast in lead, that is why. A tribute style boolit mold with a pointy pointy nose and long ogive will end up being a custom mold if you have to have it. Even if cast in straight Linotype the point would be too fragile to be practical and serve no purpose except to get dinged or bent and steer your boolits off course.

The Lee boolit will function fine in semi autos and the point is sturdy enough to be marginally practical. Please help me understand why you want such a pointy boolit... is this for "art"?

Gary

[onondaga]

The Lee boolit is much more pointy in a real picture like these of mine:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/Lee312.jpg

Gary

[cbrick]

The mold makers take into consideration the utter uselessness of a pointy pointy bullet cast in lead, that is why.

Even if cast in straight Linotype the point would be too fragile to be practical and serve no purpose except to get dinged or bent and steer your boolits off course. Gary

Really? Useless? Linotype? Serve no purpose?

Just started working with this in 308 and have fired the starting load only so far. I wouldn't call a beginning load of 2" @ 150m useless. CWW +2% Sn, air cooled. It's NOE 311365, 198 gr. Starting load was 1880 fps with an SD of 8.

True though, its not a hunting bullet but it sure does seem to make a nice target bullet.

Here is a pointy bullet that looks so far like its gonna be a great shooter.

Rick

[onondaga]

Yup, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it! I hope you do well with yours, you will discover that Linotype in that fine of a point is as susceptible to damage as Lyman #2 that dents and bends, the Linotype will chip or shatter with the same handling that damages #2.

They are pretty, no doubt, and have a nice B.C. too but I actually handle boolits and carry them in boxes. Their survivability with reasonable care makes them useless to me with a point like that.

I clicked on your picture to see the image full size. There is damage to the point sufficient to cause serious nose steering and a wild flier.That is my first reason not to like them. That boolit did not survive well enough so far to warrant lube and a gas check.

Gary

[cbrick]

Yup, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it! I hope you do well with yours, you will discover that Linotype in that fine of a point is as susceptible to damage as Lyman #2 that dents and bends, the Linotype will chip or shatter with the same handling that damages #2.

They are pretty, no doubt, and have a nice B.C. too but I actually handle boolits and carry them in boxes. Their survivability with reasonable care makes them useless to me with a point like that.

I clicked on your picture to see the image full size. There is damage to the point sufficient to cause serious nose steering and a wild flier.That is my first reason not to like them. That boolit did not survive well enough so far to warrant lube and a gas check. Gary

Nope, I will discover no such thing about lino, haven't used it or even found any in years. Have never used #2, didn't you read my post? You just looked at the picture?

I cannot levitate so I like you handle them and put them in an MTM ammo box, handle them again at the range to load them.

What bullet didn't survive long enough to warrant a GC & lube? Huh?

Serious nose damage? Cause serious nose steering and a wild flier? See, you didn't read my post. I have 25 of these in 5 shot groups on the 150m target so far with a starting charge, it must have been those wild fliers that caused the groups to spread out all the way to 2 inches @ 150 meters.

You should try shooting some of these rather than telling others what they cannot do because it won't work, which seems kinda odd since I'm already doing it. Successfuly.

Rick

[Doc Highwall]

cbrick, I have the same mould, what powder are you using? I would like to see if I could get this to stay supersonic at 600 yards with my Remington 40X that has a 27.25" barrel.

[btroj]

That is a sweet looking bullet. Looks like it just wants to shoot.
Nose damage? Where? And what is nose steering?
This is a case of differing opinions. That bullet of Rick's looks awesome to me. Sounds like he has gotten some darn good results too. This is why I always say that you need to learn at the range, not online. Rick has results that speak for themselves.

I say that of the OP wants to shoot pointy bullets because they look cool to him then I say go for it. Why beat a guy up for doing what he wants? I wish him luck in his search for a bullet he likes. I also suggest he discuss this further with Rick, I have a feeling that is a source that needs to be tapped on this issue.

[cbrick]

cbrick, I have the same mould, what powder are you using? I would like to see if I could get this to stay supersonic at 600 yards with my Remington 40X that has a 27.25" barrel.

Hhmmm . . . I doubt with my powder you'll do that. My goal was 1900 to 2000 fps and my starting load was pretty close. My use is for the 50 - 100 - 150 and 200 meter silhouette targets.

I'm using SR4759, starting charge was 19.0 gr with a Fed standard rifle primer. That's not a max load but as a SWAG I think it will get to max fairly suddenly, I haven't gone there, just didn't need it. I don't shoot 600 yards, no 600 yard range to shoot on so I don't know what muzzle velocity it'll take to keep it supersonic at 600y. My barrel BTW is 26 inch, break open single shot.

On the plus side you have a heavy enough bullet & the momentum will keep it going, you've got a great BC to keep it from slowing down.

So, I haven't been much help, guess you'll have to let me know how it works for you. I will be surprised though if you get the velocity high enough with 4759. Let me know.

Rick

[onondaga]

Look at your own picture, that boolit tip is damaged. I would cull it. Nose steering has many times more effect than tail steering if you study this in aerodynamic control surfaces that apply to ballistics. If you can't see the chip or dent on your own boolit in that picture, I'd question how well you can really see a target.

I noticed the alloy you mentioned with CWW+2% tin, that is significantly softer than #2 and even easier to damage. I have cast many thousand boolits with Lino for many years, it is impractically brittle for a point that fine. My MTM boxes have a home made foam rubber top liner now because the MTM boxes seriously damaged too much of my ammo on car rides. Those boxes suck for cast bullet ammo unless they are modified with a cushion for boolit tip protection.

I hope you don't get all bent out of shape! I said my load with the Lee boolit groups 1/2 MOA, that is 1 inch at 200 yards. My lifetime best is 6.82" at 1000 yards in competition.

2 inches at 150 meters is nice shooting. They would have the potential to group better with uniform undamaged points unlike the one in your picture with the damaged point.

Gary

[cbrick]

btroj,

Nose steering is where the nose of the bullet is bent, not striaght with the center-line of the bullet. It was the reasoning behind the development of bore riding bullets. It can be an issue with unsupported noses when pushed either to suddenly or to hard for the alloy.

onondaga never bothered to ask what I would be using this bullet for or at what velocity or anything else, simply stated it would not work. Seems a silly thing to do but to each their own.

There is a slight mis-formed nose in the picture. Extremely doubtful it would have any effect at 1900-2000 fps or 200m, the bow wave would keep air off the tip anyway plus its the base of the bullet that does the steering. This bow wave is the reason Doc Highwall asked about supersonic at 600 yards. When the bullet drops under the speed of sound the bow wave collapses and the bullet can start to wobble, more so with a deformed nose.

I always take a picture of bullets from new molds and use that picture in/for my load data in both the computer and notebook. All of my loads are recorded and all include a picture of the bullet used for each load. The picture is one of the very first bullets to fall from an excellent NOE 5 cav.

Rick

[Longwood]

btroj,


There is a slight mis-formed nose in the picture. Extremely doubtful it would have any effect at 1900-2000 fps or 200m, the bow wave would keep air off the tip anyway plus its the base of the bullet that does the steering. This bow wave is the reason Doc Highwall asked about supersonic at 600 yards. When the bullet drops under the speed of sound the bow wave collapses and the bullet can start to wobble, more so with a deformed nose.

Rick

Can I butt in?

A supersonic shock wave will move back and forth on a wing and fuselage as the speed varies.
Is it possible that that could effect the flight of a bullet that is slightly bent or has nose damage while it is still traveling above supersonic?

[cbrick]

Longwood, this is explained far better in chapter nine than I could. I don't know how to answer your question other than with a bullet the speed varying is only slowing down, never of course up & down or speeding up as with breaking the sound barrier aircraft trials.

From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners in pdf (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf)

Rick

[btroj]

That small amount of nose damage is no big deal. I have shot many a Sieera MK with a worse looking nose than that at 600. Never seemed to be an issue.

I think it is interesting to see guys trying to shoot cast at the longer ranges. Keeping supersonic at 600 while getting good velocity is a challenge as the velocity needs to up there. The long barrel will certainly help.

[jerry_from_ct]

Here you go....................

[cbrick]

That small amount of nose damage is no big deal.

Consider also that my photo of the 311365 is a close up picture. Its much like looking at it under a microscope. The full size picture is about 15-20 times larger than the actual bullet and nearly fills a 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper. Because of this any defects or blemish on the bullet are also 15-20 times actual size. Looking at the bullet that nose defect is very difficult to see with the naked eye.

Rick

[jerry_from_ct]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1173443&postcount=212

[Doc Highwall]

cbrick, I am using AA5744 now for 1800+ fps which is fine but I would switch to a slower powder like Varget and slower to achieve a higher velocity with this bullet.

[cbrick]

cbrick, I am using AA5744 now for 1800+ fps which is fine but I would switch to a slower powder like Varget and slower to achieve a higher velocity with this bullet.

I am interested in hearing your velocity & accuracy results with this bullet. I'm not currently looking for additional velocity but ya never know what the future may bring, will be good to have test results to go on.

Rick

[jerry_from_ct]

NEI molds, some seem to fit the bill.

[Larry Gibson]

Jerry

Most often when a question such as yours is asked the OP wants to duplicate the velocities, trajectory and accuracy of the similar j bullet load. Some pointy bullets do well if they have a longer bearing surface. Note the Lee bullet shown and cbricks both have a bearing surface at least, if not more, than half the length of the bullet. Note also that such bullets, especially the heavier ones such as cbricks, shoot very accurately below 2000 fps. Generally best accuracy is in the 1600 - 1850 fps range with such pointy bullets.

BTW; the "147 FMJ" of Nato fame is a also a BT with minimal bearing surface. The 150 - 154 .30/.31 and 8mm bullets are generally FB'd or have a concave base. If you're wanting a .30 cal bullet I'd also suggest the LBT 154 gr bullet or the Lyman 311466, both do well at higher than 2000 fps. If you want to get above 2000 fps it is best to avaid a long pointy bore riding nose.

Larry Gibson

[DrB]

This may be a tangent but I think it touches on the subject of blemishes on bullets, cast or otherwise.

For perfectly spherical bullets there is no reason for rifling.

For real spherical bullets with blemishes there's just one reason for rifling. For bullets with a single axis of rotational symmetry there're two reasons.

You spin a spherical bullet because it's not perfect. Spinning it tends to average out the asymmetry in the aerodynamic forces and keep its trajectory from deflecting. If you are shooting a perfect ball bearing there really is no benefit to rifling. I knew some fellows who did just this with a matched piece of pipe, a solenoid valve, and cold helium. They were getting minute of soda can at 200 yds.

You spin a pointy bullet to 1) keep the pointy end flying forward to reduce drag and 2) to average out any asymmetry in the aerodynamic forces. Nose defects, while not good, generally have far less impact than base edge defects. This is in large part due to what happens when the bullet leaves the crown. You've got super high pressure gas, typically magnitudes higher than freestream stagnation pressure, venting around any base defects. These transient forces from venting at bullet exit, unlike external ballistic forces, are transient, occur at one bullet angle, and do not get averaged over bullet revolutions. Consequently, minor base defects tend to have far more effect than minor nose defects on downrange accuracy. Oh yeah... the tangential velocity components also have the longest to act.

This is of course also why your muzzle crown is so important. A small nick or asymmetry can ruin an otherwise accurate rifle.

I suppose the relative importance might become more comparable at very extreme ranges... But I think the above should hold true for the majority of scenarios.


Anyway, I know this isn't news to most but thought it bore mentioning in the context of cast bullet defects.

Best regards...

[Harter66]

I've a long pointy boolit also its my own 1 off that taught me enough to like it and hire a pro next time. It is similar to the pictured boolit in wt and profile save that I has a nose that is neither flat nor rounded really iv. I've shot it in 3 rifles successfully and am working on a 4th. My goal/quest was for a boolit of dimensions of the tsx 180 gn. I have had no trouble to 225 yd keeping 4-6" off my knees fired at up to 1600 fps over 1800 in 2 rifles plain based to boot .

I was told over and over the points would be fragile and the usuported nose would wander etc.fact is the 03A3,308&30-06'Savages and sks like it just fine.

[NHlever]

I'm sure with Gary on this one! One has to develop a new sense of beauty when working with cast boolits. Now the pointy ones might shoot, but you usually will work for it, and reject a larger precentage of boolits if they do.

[Harter66]

Gary ,
I've many times heard "just because it looks good on paper doesn't mean it'll work"w/variations. A wise man once told me "the bumble bee is physically,mechanically and mathmatically incapable of flight,but ,nobody told the bumble bee".

I fully endorse the use and creation of pointy ,flat based ,GC or not boolits. The more bumble bees the better.

[canyon-ghost]

Lyman molds: http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm

[jerry_from_ct]

Lyman molds: http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm

You nailed it....................Thanks.

#323366